Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Johnny Hockin

I’m very honored to present our guest Beverly Glenn-Copeland. Let’s give him a round welcome [applause]. All right, so here’s yours [hands microphone].

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh wow, I get one. Yay.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Yes you do.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You want me to do anything to it?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

No, just talk into it.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Hello, hello, hello?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

I guess we’re going to start at the beginning. Let’s start with a piece of music.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Or two.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Or two?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

‘Cos they’re not too long. We’re going to start with some Chopin.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK.

(music: Chopin / applause)

JOHNNY HOCKIN

You chose some Chopin to begin...

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You cut it off before it finished! [laughter]

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Sorry. I’m sorry. You chose some Chopin. It’s a great beginning for the tired eyes in the morning, but why did you choose that? Where did you first hear that music?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK, so I was raised in Philadelphia, and I came to Canada in 1961 to go to McGill University. That’s just... So you understand that I came from Philadelphia. My father was a black man obviously... No, that’s not obvious because our histories are very complex, and our genetics are very complex. Mine are very complex. But my father identified as a black man, and looked like a black man, and this is what he played on our piano for five hours a day. This was my cradle music. I was raised on Chopin, Bach, Brahms... Yeah. Chopin, Bach, Brahms, and some other things as well. Now, I didn’t think about it. It was just what my father... My father was an educator. He worked with bringing black youth to a place where they can go off to university or whatever it is that they wanted to do successfully, then he came home, and he sat down at the piano, and he played this music five hours a day, every day. That’s what I heard. That was my cradle music.

I almost broke into tears listening to it because my father died many years ago. I was very young when he died, he was only 50 years old, and I loved him to pieces, and it was a great loss to me. When I hear this music... Yes. This brings up my dad that I adored, right? I wanted to share this with you because you want to know where a person comes from, so that’s where I come from. Now, it also happened that he played Count Basie, and all the great blues masters, but he didn’t play that on piano. I heard that... Records of those, and there was what I was listening to, but for the first I would say five, six, seven years in my life that’s what I heard. There you go.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

How passionate was he? If you’re playing five hours a day, you must be...

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

He was a very quiet person. He was very... He was an amazing being. My mother was an amazing being too because you just don’t survive unless you come from amazing beings in this world. That’s just the way it is. I’m sure all of you know that. But my dad... Actually, my mom decided she was going to make me into a musician when I was in utero, so she played the piano for an hour every single day before I was born. She too was an educator. Music wasn’t her first thing that she did, but she actually played very well, and she could play anything. You say [hums] my mother could play it. She set this up, and then my dad... He was playing in the basement, as we got a piano in the basement, and he was playing in the basement so much that she decided she was never going to see him, so she went out and she brought him a grand piano and put it in the living room so she could be with him. I mean that was really quite an extraordinary thing.

But it meant that my father would come home from teaching, and he would chop up his food in little tiny portions, and then my mother would make dinner because it was pretty traditional in those days. She made the food and he’d wash the dishes. Except when I washed the dishes, which was most of the time. Then he’d sit down and he’d go [mimics eating] “Woof, woof, woof, woof, woof.” He’d eat the dinner in about 30 seconds? I’m thinking he never chewed anything. Then he would run to the piano, and then we would have dinner music. My mother considered that was amazing. We had dinner music, right? There you go.

I have an unusual background, and I wanted to play that because it’s so emotional for me to hear that music, and I had some other reasons for wanting to play it as well, but we won’t get... [mic cuts out] Did I just undo this thing? That was a very long beginning. Now, I’m going to be producing anything. First I’m going to say did you have fun last night? You did? Yeah? OK. You’ve recuperated enough? Yeah? OK good. I was really happy to hear that you’re out dancing until 6:00 this morning, or however long you lasted. That’s wonderful. I want you to know that you interrupted my sleep. I never, ever, ever don’t sleep like a log. For some reason I woke up at 2:00, and it was like, “Why am I getting this vibration?” I got up at 3:00, you guys were still boogey-ing, and I started my day, and I didn’t know why, but now I know you guys were whipping it up, and it got all the way to me. Sorry Johnny.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

When did you start taking the piano? When did you start making music?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

That was very painful for me because my father was so brilliant. We made the mistake of going to the same piano teacher, right? Never do that to your children when you have them, OK? If you all become very... Well, you’re all musicians or you wouldn’t be here. Don’t have your children take lessons wherever you might be going to take lessons, because what happened to me was my father would go in and he’d go [plays the piano in a grand manner] and the teacher would start having orgasms. Then I’d come in, right? [plays the piano like an amateur] and the teacher would go [makes a fake smile / laughter]. I developed a complex about the piano, which was that I never wanted to play it. I was actually quite good at it, but I never wanted to play it because there’s no way I was going to come anywhere close to my father and his ability on piano. It was good for me because it forced me to do other things, right? Yeah. Spare your children. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Did you immediately become a singer because of that?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

No. It’s kind of wild, but I was born singing according to my mother. My mother said that when she turned on any music from about the age of two months on I would begin to hum, right? But that’s her fault because she’d been doing that to me when I was still in utero, right? She’s playing the piano and I’m in there going [sings] Yeah. I started singing very early, but I didn’t start taking any voice lessons until I was 15. At 15, my best friend and I decided we would go and join the orchestra, and there was a school that we went to that was way ahead of its time. It was a school for... Among other things, for if you wanted to paint, or if you wanted to do music, and this we’re talking 1957 folks, so it was really truly ahead of its time, right?

My friend decided she wanted to join the orchestra. They asked her what did she want to play? She said, “Oh, I want to play the harp.” That was fine. They asked me what I wanted to play, I said, “Oh, I don’t know.” They said, “Oh, you have long arms. You should play the trombone.” I went home to my mother and said, “You know, they wanted me to play the trombone.” My mother said, “Over my dead body.” I didn’t play the trombone. I went and I joined the choir. My friend became the principal harpist for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, right? [laughs]

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Wow.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah. Well, my friends were all musical. There’s something about that year, all the friends I had were artists, and even though we were little, right? She became a major, major, major player in that world, and I went off and started singing. That was my start in singing and I loved it. Loved it.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

You went pretty far, pretty quickly it would seem?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

It depends on what you call far, right? What do you folks think as far? What’s your idea of far? Yeah?

Audience Member

You do a really good job?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, good. That’s really good. Good for you. Yeah. Feels good. Yeah, because I had been listening to classical music my whole life, I was a classical singer. But I was not interested in opera, right? For a number of reasons, which I will tell you in a little bit, but it was not my thing. I liked the music of... It’s called lieder, which just means song. I liked the song repertoire of primarily the 19th century out of Europe. That is what I utterly loved. I sang that, I started doing that professionally, and I ended up representing Canada at Expo ‘67 way before you were born as a lieder singer. Then one day I went... Wait a minute. This is a past life. I already did that life because when I was a child, I was listening to Chinese... This is what I was listening to. I was listening to Chinese music, I was listening to African drums, I was listening to the music of India, right? I would listen to that a lot. All those things were calling me.

Drums were calling me, the sitar was calling me, I was interested in the sound of the things that were coming out of China, the sort of whatever. I was listening to world music in 1956. I suddenly realized I’m living a life, I’m about to live a life I’ve already lived. I’ve already been a lieder singer. This is my perspective. I’ve already been a lieder singer another lifetime, right? This lifetime I’m interested in weaving the music from around the world. African music was really, really big up on my list of what I was listening to. My father might have been playing Chopin, but I was listening to drums.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Where did you get that music as a kid?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, you could find it everywhere. Yeah. I mean... Yeah. It wasn’t...

JOHNNY HOCKIN

But you went out and brought it? Or got your parents to buy it? How did you come across it?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah, no I was able to buy. You could get LPs of really good... And I listen to these weird music stations that had those things that was playing music from around the world even then. Yeah. I know it’s shocking to think that back in 1957 in very Euro-dominated America, one could listen to West African drumming, but you could. Yeah. I was doing that.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

What was your parents response to your passion about this other music?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

They were really interested in me being interested in whatever I was interested in, right? For some reason my father... You don’t know why a person is interested in anything. I mean some of you are coming from a Celtic background, and you’re probably using African rhythms in what you’re doing. My genetic background is West African, Celtic, and First Nations. My grandmother is First Nations. I have all kinds of Celtic great grandmothers that I got pictures of them and whatever. Then West African, right? Your genetics... I’m going off here, but you know you think you look like X, Y, and Z, but you have no idea what’s in your bloodlines, and what starts calling you not only what you’re hearing in the environment, but what’s actually coming from your bloodlines.

The first time I heard bagpipes, I was 19 years old. I was at McGill doing music, and I raced in the... The Black Watch went by. I never heard pipes in my entire life. I ran to the window and burst into tears. I just... I almost just passed out. It was so amazing what I was listening to. It just hit such a deep cord. Now, that’s true of the pipes anyway. But unbeknownst to me, I have Celtic grandmothers, right? Well they’re speaking to me. Just like my African ones were, and my grandfathers, right? The same as first... When my grandmother... My father’s mother is First Nations, right? I never saw her dance any other way except the way indigenous people in this planet... Planet. Indigenous people on this land dance. The rest of us all had our asses stuck out and we were African [gets up and dances with ass out] Right? That’s the African... If you draw lines based on what people, what their culture is, the African stance is with the forward and the ass out, right? Right. [makes stance] No, that’s traditional, right? That’s what I did, right? My grandmother danced like this [dances casually] Right? She’s married to an African man. She was dancing like this, right? I was too young to know what that was until many years later I came to understand. She’s Cherokee, and she’d gone to Cherokee schools, and she had a Cherokee mother. Yeah, that’s... All of that. We’re all of that.

This is going to really weird places, isn’t it? [laughter] Anyway, you are all of that, right? All of you. It doesn’t matter what color your skin may be, or who, whatever. If you do DNA testing, you will find the world is in your bodies, right? The world is calling to you. That’s why your generation is the generation that is going to save this world because you are all world citizens. Yeah. You are. Even though you may not know it on a conscious way, that’s how you act. I have to tell you I’m so happy to have lived long enough to meet you all because you’re the generation that was promised a long time ago. Years, and years, and years ago I heard about your generation coming, but they always say something is coming, but they never say when, right? For the longest time I was looking. Where are they? Where are they? Where are they? I’m looking at Generation X. This can’t be them, right? This is not what was promised. [laughter] This is the bi-generation, right? Whatever. But you all finally showed up. Now you’re here and I’m just totally honored to have lived long enough to meet you all.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

But Glenn I feel like you are a predecessor to this generation with your interests in the muse of otherworld, and you’re looking out for this generation. Was it difficult to be so ahead of your time in those modes of thinking?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, yes and no. It was very difficult in some ways because nothing I ever wrote sounded like anything anybody wanted to hear at that time because I was writing stuff... I was doing what I hope you will do, which is to write what your heart tells you to write, and not what the society tells you is going to make you “famous.” If what you feel happens to be what’s happening if that’s really coming from your heart, then you go for it. If it’s not, don’t do it. Don’t do it. Stay with what your heart tells you to do because ultimately it will take you to a victory that is much more profound than twisting yourself into a pretzel to make it work. Whatever... I’m not judging about ... I have no judgements about what it is that you individually may feel to do. But the most important thing is to stay real with who you are. That’s the most important thing. Stay real with who you are. Whoever you are, right? Doesn’t matter. Yeah. I stayed real with who I was, and that meant that nobody was too much interested in what I did. But I just continued to do it because I had no life, but that. I had nothing to say, but what was real for me. I just did it, and yeah. Now, all of a sudden it seems that now it’s time or something. I don’t know. But that happens.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Well, with that in mind, we spoke about you giving up being a lieder singer to create your own work.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Why don’t we listen to something from the GRT record?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You want to do the GRT?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

I think I’d like to start that.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You do, do you? Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Because it wasn’t the first thing that you made, that you wrote. But it is something that became very highly sought after by record collectors in the time since, so it’s a bit of an example of what you were just saying.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Which one are you going to?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

I would love to listen to “The Color of Anyhow.”

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, you’re going to go there. OK, well all right. First... All right. First, I have to tell you something very important. There are three, four challenges in my life. Major, major, major challenges. The first was being black in a white culture. You know, whatever. The second was being transgendered in a hetero normative culture, right? The third was that I was a musician, an artist in a business culture, right? That last one is still very relevant. Artists... This is a still business culture, and there is a great desire to make art into business. It is not business. It can be part of business, but it is not business.

This first piece that you’re going to hear is the me that was still living as a female because there was no choice in 1970. There was no choice. I lived as a female until... Well, I told my mother I was a boy when I was three, and of course she freaked out because that was 1947. Anybody is going to freak out if you say that in 1947, especially if they’re your mom, or whatever. Now, I hope you won’t freak out if your children tell you that, but then you’ve had a different experience. Anyway, so this is still a time when I’m still having to sound like whatever, although I won’t get into that right now, but... There you go, OK? Is anybody freaked? No, good. [laughter]

(music: Beverly Glenn-Copeland – “The Color of Anyhow” / applause)

You don’t have to clap.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

I think they want to clap.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So that’s sort of an early example of your song writing and song writing is something you’ve been doing ever since. So looking back, how does that make you feel hearing that song?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, it freaks me out. Because I’m so removed from that and it’s taken me a while to reconcile the sound that I hear and the... It’s just like I don’t write in any one style. So what that sounds like and what the next thing is going to sound like and then the next thing and the next thing is going to be all so different and I so live in the moment. It’s really hard for me to... I almost don’t relate to stuff that I write and you know the day before yesterday much less 40-50 years ago, right?

So that was written when I was, well it was written in 1970 or ’69 or ’68 or something. So how many years was that? That’s beyond my ability to add. A long time ago. Yeah. A long time ago. So it’s like I hear it and it’s like, “Oh, that’s very nice but do I relate to it? No. Not really.” But I’m always happy if somebody else does, right? Because that’s great.

And OK. So how shocked are you about that? How does that, I don’t know how old most of you are but I’m assuming 20s and 30s? Am I right? Right. So is there, do you, have you had experience where there’s things that you write or ways of expression and then you go back to it and it doesn’t’ speak to you any longer? Yes? Anybody give me examples or want to speak about that? I’ve been yakking away here but I really want to talk with you. Yeah? Anybody want to? No? No. Yes? Yes.

Audience Member

I think when I was really young and started making music I was doing what you said and maybe I felt like comfortable to be making what I thought was cool and now I just find that so embarrassing to listen to because it wasn’t cool. And then you start finding out what you really want to say instead.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Right. Are you judging yourself?

Audience Member

Yes.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, okay. It’s hard for us not to do that. It’s really hard. I don’t mean to, I don’t want you to be judgmental about what you did. It’s just that you may not relate to it anymore and you might not like it but it’s whatever you wrote was very important in that time because that was a step on your path, right? It was very important. So, you know, be kind to yourself even if you don’t like it.

Audience Member

OK.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah. Anybody else want to speak to that? No. OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

We’ll warm them up. It’ll take a little time this morning. We’ll get there. Don’t worry. Who was playing guitar on that?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK, so the person that was playing guitar on that is one of the masters, if not the grand master of guitars for probably the last 100 years. His name is Lenny Breau. If you’re not familiar with him, he was a jazz master but I’ll give you an example, but he played all kinds of things. I’ll give you an example. He was one of the most humble beings ever. He told me a story about, and he told me this story laughing, kind of gently laughing. He said that he started playing, he was born in the maritimes and he started playing and he would listen to records and then he would figure out how to play it. And then only later he would find out they had recorded that four or five times over, layers, right? Yeah. But he would figure out how to play it not knowing that it was four layers that had been put on top of each other. He was that brilliant. He was a genius, right?

And I was very fortunate. I was just a little kid basically. Not a little kid, but I was a kid and I knew nothing about the music industry and I was zipped into the studio with this grand master of the guitar. He was a grand master. And several other grand masters of their own instruments and we sat down and every single thing we did off the floor, they got the music five minutes before first take. One take. Everybody at once. Right? Yeah. Then that friends ain’t never done that since. Don’t ever hope to. Right? It’s an amazing thing. It speaks to genius when you can have someone, you can give five people something and they look at it for three minutes and then they come out with that on one take, right? Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

How did that session come about?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, there was a gentleman who wanted to be, who wanted to record my music and he was friends or knew all these individuals and he just, you know, said well, “Just come on in the studio. We’ll just have some fun.” I didn’t know any of the individuals who ended up playing but they were all masters at what they did, you know. It was an amazing experience. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So did you find, when did you find out that they were going to be that good? Was it in the session?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

In the session. I knew nothing about these people. Nothing. It’s one of the wonderful things about being totally inocente, right? You just stumble into things and wonderful things happen but I was, I was and still am quite... Musicians tend to come into two categories who write music. Those who listen to everything and those who listen to almost nothing. Right? I listened to almost nothing and I’m learning. I’m learning. From your generation I’m starting to find out what I should be listening to because they’re starting to tell me. “Listen to this. Listen to this. Listen to this.” I’m starting to listen and I’m hearing the geniuses of your time. Right? Because of it.

But basically I lived in audio total silence and listened to no music at all. But that’s probably because I listened to so much of it when I was little. There was so much going on in my household. I just needed some silence for the next 30 years, 40 years, something. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

I don’t want to dwell on this but compared to the YouTube of that, which is I think the place it’s most easily found, this sounds really good. The file you sent me sounds amazing.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, that’s because this is about to be re-released and the company that did the re-releasing, it will be out probably in a couple weeks. They remastered it brilliantly. When I heard it, I had the same feeling. It’s like I’d never heard it before. It was so beautiful, what they did to it.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Do you want to play “Ghost House?”

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Depends on how much time we have.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

OK, we could save that. We can save that.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

I’d love them to hear Lenny Breau, in the middle of it, what he does.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Sure. Do you want to just play a clip then?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah, can we get to…

JOHNNY HOCKIN

We can search.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

I just want you to hear this. I want you to hear this guy.

(music: Beverly Glenn-Copeland – “Ghost House” / applause)

I don’t know. I mean, that just stuns me when I hear that. It’s like to have the experience, to be in a situation with a master like that. Remember, this is one take. First time we ever played it, played it like that. I mean, that just charges me. That’s just like, “Ah!” Because excellence! Excellence, brilliance and excellence. There is nothing more inspiring. Oh, sorry. Whoops [grabs mic again] Yeah, anyway.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So if that was one of your first sessions, did you just think that’s what it was always like? What was your reaction in the studio, when that was happening? Did you know? Did you know that that was going to be special?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, it charged me to my best ability, and afterwards I was mostly there with my... Like, “Oh, who are these people?” Like the person who was playing flute, he was the finest flute player, probably, in the world at the time. He was from New York. You know, who knew, right? Yes?

Audience Member

What was his name?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, don’t ask me that question, that’s terrible. [laughter] Because here’s the thing. I never had a good memory, and now, at 73, I have no memory whatsoever. I’m sorry, this is coming for you. It is coming. My wife, when we first got married, you know, I would say, “Honey, you know, the witzifritzi, you know? The watchamafritzi, and the whatsit,” and she would kind of look at me like, “Um, you know? Poor guy.” Well, you know, it’s ten years later now, and she goes, “The what?” So that’s how our conversations go. “You know, the... Honey! You know, the...” I’m sorry. I hope for you that doesn’t happen, but it seems to happen with age.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

That’s why we have liner notes as well.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah. You can find it, his name. He’s probably no longer alive now, but he may be.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So you started your journey into songwriting, and that album was one of the things. What happened with that album in these early days of your writing?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, all of a sudden, people decided that I was some kind of jazz singer, which I am not, but I just happen to be backed by jazz musicians, so it had a jazz feel to it. Nobody knew what to do with it, this album. They just kind of put it up on the shelf and went, “Whatever it is, you know? We don’t know what it is,” so they didn’t even have a category to put it in. In those days, categories were absolutely critical. If you weren’t in a category, you just existed out in space somewhere. And there was no category for this, so it just kind of sat on those things in record shops, and people picked it up, and some people freaked out over it and you know whatever.

Years went by and it became... I actually had somebody buy this album for $2,500. Can you imagine that? Give me a break. Like what album is worth $2,500. I don’t care, you know? Obviously the money didn’t come to me, but still, what can you do with $2,500? Anyway, OK, so whatever. Somebody paid $2,500 to get an original of one of these, and then somebody else paid $2,000 a few months later, and somebody else paid $1,500. I don’t understand that at all. I don’t get that. But hey. So it became a collectors’ item. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

But at the time, it wasn’t doing so well.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

What do you mean by doing so well? It probably sold ten copies. No. [laughs]

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So what did you do with that? How did you take the next step?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

I never stopped to think about what happens. I’m always moving forward. If you stop and look back or you get too worried about what’s going on right here, there’s no movement forward. That’s the most important thing, the movement forward. Don’t get stuck in anything. Don’t get into a place where, “This is who I am, this is what I write,” because as long as you’re human, and you wouldn’t be in this room if you weren’t exploring your creativity, creativity has no bounds. It has no bounds. Explore whatever comes up. Doesn’t matter whether anybody wants it, explore it anyway. If there’s something that they want, give it to them, fine. But just keep exploring. Explore all your boundaries. Push your boundaries. Yeah. So that’s what I was doing, I was just following my muse. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

At a certain point you did find quite a bit of success, with children’s music. How did you get into that?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

How did you get into that business?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Alright. So the first thing I wanted to be was a comedian. That was my first love, and I used to do comedy hour, unfortunately for my poor parents, every single day, at eight. It would be like eight, nine and ten would be like, “And now...” And my mother who was... You know, it’s very interesting, because to survive as a black person... My mother was born in 1918. To survive as a black person in those days, if you had the opportunity to get degrees and all of those kinds of things, which my mother did, you had to be very Euro, you had to be more Euro than Euro. So she was very Euro, but at the same time, she was a black woman, so help me, a black woman. And you cannot erase DNA. You can over-top stuff, over-top of stuff, but her DNA was very African. So she was not thrilled about the fact that I wanted to do slapstick comedy. No. Because her idea of what I was supposed to be, was the princess. I was the prince, but she didn’t know that. The princess, to follow, she was a queen, my mother, to follow in her footsteps.

And the idea of me doing very black style comedy, which is what I love to do, was not happening, for my mother at all. And she was very kind to me, she was always very compassionate and very supportive, but no, that was not truly supported, in that way. What was supported in my house was European classical music, even though my mother did not play European classical music, she played other things. But that’s what was going on in my household, that time.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

But making things for children allowed you...

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, what happened... OK, yeah, you did ask me that question, okay. So what happened was, one of my friends was a scriptwriter for the Mr. Dressup Show. Do you know the Mr. Dressup Show? Yeah. So she wrote me into a script, first just to come on and do some music, but it turned out that I actually was a very good comedian. And the Mr. Dressup Show was perfect, because I got to dress up and be absolutely outrageous, and be slapstick. So they started writing me into scripts constantly, and they wrote me into scripts, and they let me write music for them. And I started writing music for other children’s television shows, and that went on for 25 years.

So, I had no privacy. It was a wonderful time, but I had no privacy, because I could not pick my nose in public, without somebody coming up to me and saying, “Ah, you’re Beverly from the Mr. Dressup Show.” It was wonderful, I had a very high profile, but it also was very constricting, because it meant... I was writing for children, and so that meant that I couldn’t really be myself. Because you couldn’t be transgender and be writing for children, and you couldn’t be she one day and he the next day, or the other way round, or whatever, right? So it was very constraining, but the good news was, I had a blast while I did it. So yes, that’s the Mr. Dressup reality. It was fun, I got to dress up and be insane. I love children, I have a lot of them. And, yeah, so that was good, that part.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

And I think you still have quite a connection with children, in educating and using music?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah. My wife and I actually had a theater school for a while. And my wife is a brilliant everything, whereas I have one talent she has five. They’re all amazing. But that’s the nature of women, guys, so you know. Because women, the brain is different, you know that right, guys? Brain’s different? We think A goes to B goes to C, women think, everything at once. Yeah, the brain’s different. Anyway, so she’s brilliant in everything. So we had a children’s... It wasn’t only for children, but it was a theater school, for five years. We had a blast, and I wrote a lot of music for theater during that time, yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So maybe we’ll go back to the ’80s a little bit. I’d like to play “Ever New.”

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

[inaudible].

JOHNNY HOCKIN

“Ever New” has an interesting story though, because “Ever New” is how I heard about you, and it’s how I heard about you just recently. And I think a lot of people, “Ever New” and the recent resurgence through the Internet is how they’ve heard about you in my generation. But tell us about the origins of it.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

“Ever New,” OK. So, I’ve always lived in... I’m basically a woods monk, almost, that’s almost what I am. So I was living in the woods, as per usual, in the middle of nowhere, as per usual, and I had always been interested in computers. I had a computer, the first computer that was ever for individuals, I think it came out of England, it was something that started with a Z. It was about that big, and all it could do was add one and one, but I was totally fascinated, because I’d always been a sci-fi and I always considered that silicon life was the next developing thing.

So, in 1985, computers had gotten sophisticated enough for me to be able to buy a system, and it allowed me to be able to write music in my home, in the middle of the woods, and have a full palette of sound, which I loved, because if I could’ve written music that included orchestras and choirs, and people that were playing African drums and everything, I would have. [noise] That got exciting over there. So computers gave me an instrument to be able to start to push the boundaries, and to be able to play all of the things that I was hearing. So this was 1985.

(music: Beverly Glenn-Copeland – “Ever New” / applause)

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So what was in your cabin studio? How did you make that? What were you using?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

I was using a DX-7, a, what’s the name of the computer that was like a cheap Mac? Doesn’t exist anymore. No, not Commodore. Commodore was not sophisticated at all. This is Atari. Who said that? Yes, thank you, yes. Atari, a DX-7, and a TR-707, I think it was. And that’s all. Everything came from that.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So you were making music where you lived.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yes.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

And then what happened with the music? You compiled it and you released it somehow. What was the process?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

I don’t remember. Let me think, now. Oh, I remember. OK. There was a studio up in the middle of nowhere and they wanted to, I had the money to be able to, which is an amazing experience to actually have the money to be able to go into a studio. But I did. So I took it to this little studio in the middle of nowhere and we recorded it and then we put it out on a tiny little cassette, because that’s what we had. We sold maybe 100 copies of it. Then it went dormant for 100 years. Then the princess came along and kissed me, or whatever, you all don’t know that story, do you. You know how the prince always comes along and kisses the princess and then she wakes up from a sleep of 100 years? Whatever.

Anyway, so the prince, or the princess, whatever, came along and kissed this little album and a Japanese man found this album as a cassette and about a year and a half ago, he found it, and I had lots of copies because nobody bought it. He said, “Can I have 30 copies?” So I shipped them to Japan and then a week later, he said, “I’ve sold them all out, can I have 30 more?” And I shipped them to Japan. Two weeks later he said, “I’ve sold them all out.” But unbeknownst to me, he was internationally connected. The next thing I knew, I had about 10 record companies after me. After silence for 50 years. Interesting, isn’t it?

It’s all about time. You don’t know what the timing for anything is. We don’t know the timing of our death, we don’t know the timing of our children, they’re going to appear to us, we don’t know the timing of when the perfect mate comes along or several perfect mates. We really don’t know anything. We think we do, but there’s an overarching... Our lives... There’s purpose to each life and what that purpose is is not necessarily revealed immediately.

For some people it’s revealed very early. For some people, it’s revealed again and again as they go along. For me, that purpose has only recently been revealed. I can tell you what it is. My purpose, who knew, was to encourage your generation about the fact that you all are going to change the world and hopefully save us. Because it’s your generation that went ape over this album. Why, I have no idea. I was writing this before you were born, most of you. Timing.

What’s his name, the greatest French impressionist, Van Gogh. You’re familiar with Van Gogh, yes? Van Gogh sold one painting in his entire lifetime. He went completely mad and killed himself ultimately. One painting he sold in his entire lifetime. When I was about 40 years old, I heard a radio newscast saying that one of his paintings had just sold for $40 million. $40 million. And he couldn’t sell but one in his lifetime. Of course, he was overcome by that and he killed himself. But timing, we have no idea, I’m not Van Gogh, so this is not going to be happening for me 40,000 years after I’m dead like it will be for Van Gogh. Well, maybe not 40,000 years.

But we each have a purpose. There is something that each of us here is called to do. We don’t know what it is. Do it. Just do what you’re called to do because at some point or another, what you’re called to do will be exactly what is wanted. It may be next week or it may be 25 years from now, but do it.

That was the lesson for me. I didn’t get discouraged because I have a Buddhist practice, which for me, I’ve been a Buddhist for 44 years. It’s a daily practice. It helped me to stay very centered and very positive and all of those things that you need to be able to negotiate this world, which is busy crumbling as we speak. It helped me to be able to negotiate it. You are inheriting a world that is in much, much more pain than the world I inherited. I am sorry that my generation really, really did not do hardly anything to stop that even though years and years and years and years ago many of us were trying. But by and large, my generation was deaf to it all. They were just so happy to have made it through World War II that they just went on a buying spree. Everything was about buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. What can I get? What can I have that makes me feel secure?

Well, those days are over. And what you are all doing, what you give, art is... Art is the forward aspect of our humanity. It is what’s right out there of our humanity, of our hearts. And that’s what you all have now to give going forward. I will be dead, but you will be doing that. Do not fail to give your hearts. Do not fail. It’s so important. I’m going to be watching you all from another dimension. OK? Yeah. I’m so grateful. I’m saying this again. I am so grateful you have appeared.

Did I answer your question? Or did I go off on one of my things?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Yes, I think you did. I am interested, though. You said that so much has happened in the past couple of years that’s made you feel like it’s your time now in a way.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Can you tell us a little bit about things that have happened, like with this album and in general.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK. The telephone never stops ringing. My telephone never rang for 50 years. Now it rings constantly. There’s something going on every minute. It has to do with this music. Who knew? You just do what you do, and now seems to be the time. There’s somebody that’s about to make a movie of my life. Right? I haven’t sold 50 million albums. Why are… They want to make a movie of my life? I don’t know, but whatever. That’s happening. All kinds of things are happening. I can’t tell you how many record deals have been offered. Probably 15 in the last year. Right? It’s not like “heavy duty.” Right? But, 15 is 15 more than I got offered in 50 years. Right? Yeah. So, for some reason or another, this is a time. Mostly, I’m eating my Wheaties and all my vitamins so I can perhaps live long enough to finish what it is I’m supposed to be doing here. Right? Yeah. I was told when I was young that my “career” would happen when I was old. So now that it’s starting to happen, I know now I am old [laughter]. Yeah. Yeah, OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

We have a lot of potential songs to play, and not that much time. So maybe, is there something you want to play and then talk about?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah. We’ve been playing all these little lyrical things. Let’s get funky, OK? Good grief. OK, OK. So, OK, this is really exciting to me. I mean, I could play you things where my voice sounds very, very different from what you’ve just heard. And everything sounds very different from everything you’ve heard, but he wanted to do what he wanted to do, so that’s fine. I’m going to play you something. Right now, I’m really, really... I’m really hearing from my ancestors, from my African ancestors and my First Nations ancestors, a lot. So I’m playing a lot of drums, a lot of hand drums. We’re going to end with me playing some hand drums, I think. Yeah.

You all are using loops and stuff. Right? How many of you use loops? A few of you. About, maybe, 20% have used it or whatever. OK, so I wanted to know what’s with this loop thing? Right? OK. So I decided I’m going to write a piece that’s all loops except for my voice and except for the part that’s not loops, which is anything that’s lyrical sounding in terms of melody or whatever, but in terms of rhythm. So, OK. So, this I did, is not professionally recorded. And there are no words, so don’t be straining your ears trying to hear what the words are, because it’s only syllables. It’s just syllables of nothing in particular except however, whatever, you might feel from it. It’s “Africa Calling?” Yeah. This a direction I’m currently in. I have been in for actually a long time, but I just wanted to play because I wanted to get... What’s going on is loops, so I’m going to get loopy here.

(music: Glenn Copeland – “Africa Calling” / applause)

Thank you.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Alright, what else do you want to play?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, goody. How are you guys doing? How are you? Are you exhausted? Are you tired? You want to hear some more music?

Audience

Yes.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, wow. Thank you. That’s very kind. I want to play more! OK, alright. So OK, let me ask you this. Would you like to hear something... Oh, I know what. My father once said to me, after the first album that was put out, he said, “Well, you certainly can’t sing the blues,” right? So I took it on as a talent. He was right, ‘cause I’m not a blues singer, and everyone has different things that they’re able to do, right? I have a feeling for it, but it doesn’t come out sounding right, right? Anyways, so I wrote this one piece for my father who’s long dead, he died in 1973. ‘72, actually. So this was written... When was this written? 2004. For my dad. It’s called “A Song And Many Moons.”

(music: Glenn Copeland – “A Song and Many Moons” / applause)

OK so I just want you to know what you can do in your own studio, OK? So I wrote that in my studio. I sang all the parts, I played all the parts except for the guitar. So you can do all that, because of the way studios are now. So get your chops as much together as possible, because the more you can do, the more control you have over what you’re putting out. You probably know all that anyway, but I’m late the party. So there you go, yeah?

JOHNNY HOCKIN

And I think you said the second last song you made in Garage Band? Is that right?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah, the one before that. Yeah, I had fun with that. The one with the loops? Yeah, for some reason or another, my computer decided for one year that is was not going to allow me to use the application that I’d always used. I’ve always used Digital Performer. I’d been using Digital Performer since 1998, and it decided I was not going to get to use Digital Performer for one year, and I could not understand why it would not let me record anything in audio. I took my computer to at least five different people, all of whom were experts, and they all said my computer was perfectly fine, and there was nothing wrong with my program, either. But now I understand it was making me turn to my drum, so that I would start to get into rhythms.

So one day, out of frustration, because I couldn’t record anything to speak of, I just went, “Oh well, let’s just do loops,” and you know, who does loops better than Garage Band, in terms of readily available? So I just went to Garage Band and went, “Oh, well,” and I started doing all these loops, and out came this amazing stuff, and I thought, “Hmm, maybe this is why I’m not getting to use my Digital Performer, because I really need to be exploring other things?” Because that’s one of the things that happens. We get into patterns, and we get caught in those patterns. We never push ourselves past those patterns, because it gets oh so comfortable. And then our creativity stops being creative. Starts just getting to be repetitive stamping of stuff we’ve done already. So yeah, cool.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

We can start opening to questions or play…

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Just now? [laughs]

JOHNNY HOCKIN

If anyone wants to…

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah, if you have any questions, then happy to…

JOHNNY HOCKIN

To share, or…

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Pretend to answer them, whatever. Anything you want to share? Why are you so quiet? Is this because I talk so much? ’Cause I do. Or is this because you’re hungover? Or are you just very deep? Yes?

Audience Member

Thank you so much by the way. Is this on? OK. Thank you so much, it’s been really amazing hearing you speak. I was wondering, because you spoke a lot about internal driven inspiration, and I was wondering if there’s anything specific that inspires you or pushes you t, drives you to make music externally? And what are the avenues that that comes to you from? Or more specifically, different media that does that for you?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK. I don’t consider that I write music, OK? And most all of my friends are artists of one discipline or another, and they all say the same thing. For me, what I am is that I came in with a set of sensitivities, and I honed those sensitivities by studying as much music as I could, and listening to as much music as I could, and I’m kind of like a radio, right? And I’m tuned to certain frequencies, because I honed those frequencies. And the universe sends me stuff on those frequencies. It sends stuff all the time depending on what frequency you’re honed to. The universe is the creative force, period and amen, and we are all just aspects of it. So there’s music coming through all the time, there’s painting coming through all the time, there’s mathematics coming through all the time. There’s all of these things coming through, ‘cause they’re all creative. Doesn’t matter what you call it, but it’s all about creation. There’s stuff coming through all the time, and if you really tune yourself and work hard to be able to hear what’s coming through, in this case, or see what’s coming through, if you’re a visual artist or whatever that’s meant for you, specifically, then there is no end to what is coming through.

And you can say no, on a given day, “No today, I’m not open for translating,” or whatever you want to call it. Doesn’t matter. It’ll go to somebody else. I can tell you so many stories of things that were meant to happen, people who had ideas and then they didn’t say yes to the idea, and one year later, that identical idea appears to somebody else who they get to know, and it’s the same thing. It’s because that idea was coming through, and that person said no, and that’s okay, and it went to the next person. So that’s how I think of it, and I’m going to say this in a certain kind of way, and I don’t mean to be insulting, but I’m kind of like an idiot savant, and the reason I say that is this. When I hear whatever it is that’s coming through, it is so powerful, and I write it down as fast as I can, or I translate it as fast as I can, and then, when it’s all down, I look at it, I haven’t an idea in the world how to play it. It’s like I have no concept where this came from, I can barely translate it, and I went to McGill, for music, and I learned how to write down stuff. I am a trained classical musician, and still, I can’t, barely, play it when it comes through, once it’s finished. And that’s because it didn’t really originate from me. That’s a really important point.

Now, you may not believe that, and that’s okay, but when you get to my age, you might believe it, if we’re all so lucky as to have you all be able to live into your 70s or your 80s, because it is nothing short of a miracle, a creative miracle that is happening every split instant that is coming to you. And that might be just what you make for dinner, because it’s the same thing, right? It’s the same principle. Yeah. I don’t want to get religious, because it’s not about religion, but it’s a spiritual reality. It’s a wholly thing, W-H-O-L-L-Y thing, right? Yeah. OK, yeah. Does that answer your question?

Audience Member

Yes, thank you.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So in the back? Yeah.

Audience Member

Hi. First of all, thank you for the inspiring words. It’s been really touching.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You’re so welcome.

Audience Member

Thanks. I wondered if you could speak about pacing and arrangements? I noticed, listening to “Ever New,” for example, the sequence comes in and it evolves quite slowly, and when the voice comes in, I feel like it’s so much more uplifting because we’ve waited for it long enough. Do you mostly compose by just improvisation? And feel, you know? Does it come to you like now’s the time to introduce that element or how do you go about that? I’m curious.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Well, sometimes something comes fully written with everything almost like pre-decided, and sometimes, like I’ve got one piece that will be the last thing I think I’ll play for you before I drum, that took me 30 years to write it, right? It’s not that it’s complicated. Right?

I don’t think there is an answer because we’re all different, right? All of you are, variety is what the universe loves and so you’re all different, so what I think the most important thing to do is to be... To really, to not sit on your haunches, to not sit back on your anything, your laurels, your haunches, or anything. Always have an attitude that something wonderful can happen, something wonderful is happening.

Then listen and figure out what it is you like. After you’ve decided that, “OK, I’m in the presence of something, something magical,” right? Then I like this, so I’ll do that. I don’t do any two things the same way. I tend to be long-winded and that was a particularly long-winded period of my life, right? So the piece went on for eight minutes. I listen to it now and I think, “Good grief, it should have ended at five,” but that’s because I’m in that stage now, right? It’s perfectly valid, whatever’s going on at any given time, right? So yeah, I got into a thing where I just went into kind of a trance and because I was exploring that. Not literally, but you know. Then I brought in the voice and it kicked it up a notch or whatever. When I listen to it now I just think, “good grief, I certainly was, I really just kind of lost it.” [laughter]

Audience Member

I really like that about it actually.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

It just went on and on. Right? Does that sort of answer the question? There’s no answer to that.

Audience Member

No, it does. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Just go with... Yeah?

Audience Member

Yeah. Sounds good. Thank you very much.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Anymore questions?

Audience Member

I just also wanted to thank you for speaking. It was extremely inspiring.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh, I’m happy.

Audience Member

You were talking about how, you mentioned how you’re kind of catching wind of what’s going on these days and there’s also a lot of people who are looking for a lot of older music now that was kind of looked over at the time. There’s also a lot of new genres coming out and I was just wondering have you been listening to anything recently that has been inspiring you or that you’re amazed by it?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yeah. Now for the big challenge, [puts on old voice] to be able to remember the names [laughter]. OK. There’s this guy called is it Evor? Ivor? Bonivor?

Audience Member

Bon Iver.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Oh my God, what a genius, right? Whoa. I just discovered him like three weeks ago. I flipped out. I flipped, right? Oh wow, right? One of those beings, right? Whoa. Whoa. I get the chills, literally. I watched his piece that he did, the video of just the boy. There’s just a boy. It’s just a child going through nature in this rocky environment. See if you can find it. If you don’t have to get out your hankies, then I don’t know. It’s just... Yes.

There’s a guy in Holland. His name is Van Velzen. Whoa, get a load of him if you can. VAN, Van, which is Van, or Von on Germany, but Van in Hollands. Velzen, V-E-L-Zed-E-N. Whoa! Unbelievable. This guy, he stands about that tall [indicates height], but he’s not a tiny, tiny person. He’s just a very small person, right? Literally he’s about that tall. He is amazing, magnificent, not to be missed. Not to be missed, right?

There’s a lot of stuff on YouTube of his. There’s one concert, he does covers as well as some of his own, but most of the stuff that’s on are his covers, but you just need to see what’s coming from this man, right? Womenfolk, you’re going to have to tell me who I should be listening to for womenfolk. Yeah, because right now I’ve just been exploring these two. What happens with me is when I find something that I like, whereas I don’t listen to a lot of different kinds of music, when I find something that really speaks to me I might listen to it every day for a year.

I study it. Not because I’m going to end up sounding like it, but because it has something that’s so profound that I need to hear it. It’s like food, right? I’ve done that my whole life. Are you all familiar with Hans Zimmer? Right, OK, well I’ve been a Hans Zimmer fan for 15, 20 years. When he did the score to Superman, the new, the Man of Steel, I flipped out and listened to it four times a day for eight months.

I’m not Hans Zimmer. I don’t have his talent. I’m not ever going to compose or do anything like that, but it was like I could not believe what I was hearing. If you’ve never heard this, see if you can find Hans Zimmer, Zed-I-M-M-E-R, H-A-N-S. Find his Man of Steel and see if you can find not the actual thing that he cut for the album, the bits that... Not the album, but for the movies, but his original concept, which is 28 minutes long.

Mind blowing. Mind blowing. Not to be missed. This is one of the things that I want to, I really want to stress. It is incredibly important that you listen to all kinds of music, that you find classical music to listen to in every culture, that you listen to classical Indian music, that you listen to the classical music, “classical,” that’s coming out of East Africa, West Africa, Southern Africa, that’s coming out of Islam, whatever. Wherever it’s coming from, that’s coming from the Celts, that’s coming from you name it, from First Nations indigenous folks.

Listen to everything. It’s so important. It’s your education. It is your foundation, which will then enrich everything that you do on your own, that’s yours because we, none of us, everything that we do actually is just re-combinations of what already is. Because we’re just re-combinations of what already is. Right? That’s what art is, but those re-combinations are so important and so critical because Mother Earth here, she’s recombined everything. We still don’t know half of what she’s produced and we’re busy destroying it. We’re still finding stuff that she’s produced. She’s just busy. She’s the mother, right? Then there’s Daddy Sun. That’s all we are is particles of Daddy Sun. That’s all we are, right? So we’re just recombined. We’re recombined, so listen to everything that you can. You’ll have your favorites and some of it you’ll go, “Oh my God, help me please. I never want to hear that again ever.” That’s fine too, but just push. Push your boundaries. Push your boundaries, right? That’s education. You don’t have to go to a school to be educated. You just have to be willing to listen to everything that you can as a musician. Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

We’re running out of time a little bit, so...

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Yes. Should we go into...

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Do you want to play that last song?

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

You want to play the last song? Yeah.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

Yeah.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

“Prince Caspian’s Dream.” This is the one that took me 30 years to write. I didn’t write it. I heard the tiniest aspect of it in 1970 and then every once in 10 years I’d come back to it and nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So, I didn’t sweat it, and then one day I went back to it and the whole thing came to me in 15 minutes. OK?

(music: Glenn Copeland – “Prince Caspian’s Dream” / applause)

Thank you. OK.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

So, as one last little treat. Glenn is going to make a little… But, I’m sure some people have more questions and Glenn will be around afterwards and you can try and pull him aside during lunch or something. So, explain to us what you’re going to do here.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

OK, so, I don’t have songs for this. This is not about songs. It’s always an improvisation. I never know what’s going to come out and partly it’s based on whatever the drums are talking to me about, and the ancestors are talking to me about in any given moment, so to speak. So this is the African side.

(music: Glenn Copeland live drum improvisation / applause)

Thank you. Thank you.

JOHNNY HOCKIN

All right, it’s our last day to spend time in the studio, so I’m sure everyone’s excited. I think lunch is soon or now and also hopefully if you want to talk to Glenn he’ll be around for a little bit. So, thank you everyone, let’s give a big thank you to Glenn. [applause]

Beverly Glenn-Copeland

Thank you very much. Thank you. It’s really an honor. Thank you. Thank you.