Tom Moulton

TODD L. BURNS

Welcome to the first lecture of the 2013 New York Red Bull Music Academy. I have the distinct honour of sitting next to a man who’s responsible for a lot of firsts: remix, 12”, breakdown. Mr. Tom Moulton, please give him a hand.

[applause]

Tom Moulton

Thank you.

TODD L. BURNS

I guess, speaking of firsts, what was the first record that you ever bought with your own money? Do you remember?

Tom Moulton

I remember but unfortunately no one else in the room would remember. I was six years old and I begged my mother to buy me “One O’Clock Jump” by Count Basie. Anybody remember that? You remember Count Basie? Good.

TODD L. BURNS

So were your parents into music?

Tom Moulton

Well, they were both musicians.

TODD L. BURNS

What kind of musicians?

Tom Moulton

Well, they thought they were jazz musicians. I mean, they were doing weddings and that kind of thing. My father had a quintet and my mother had a quartet, and they couldn’t play together at all because my father’s timing was so bad. And she would just come in fight all the time, you know, saying, “Why did you come in? You came in two beats too early.” My father considered himself a jazz musician, that’s why his timing was kind of loose when it came to that sort of thing.

TODD L. BURNS

So it saved the marriage that they were not in the same group?

Tom Moulton

No, no, by the time the fifth kid was born, “Bye.”

TODD L. BURNS

So which one are you?

Tom Moulton

I was the oldest, I’m the first.

TODD L. BURNS

And growing up, so you had jazz in the household. What other sorts of music?

Tom Moulton

Pop and... Well, how can I say it? I think I grew up in a wonderful time. I was born in 1940 and during the ‘40s jazz played a very important part in pop music. The music in the ‘40s was incredible to me because of the melodies and the beauty of it, and these intricate timings they had. And then, of course, to be a teenager in the ’50s when rock & roll started, I mean, to me that was one of the greatest things in my life, to have this totally different kind of music. Everyone said, “That crap’ll never last,” and of course, it’s still around. It’s like dance music, it’s been around since anybody could play an instrument. We call it different things now but it’s still dance music, people still like to get up and react emotionally to music.

TODD L. BURNS

Speaking of rock, I think you went out to California with the dream of being a DJ, a radio DJ like Alan Freed.

Tom Moulton

Well, actually that was here. That was here, and then I got very disappointed that they took money to play a record, and I thought, “How can you take money to play something?” I couldn’t relate to that because my dream was to find a record that I like and play it for somebody on the radio, and everybody would like it and they’d get all excited and everything. And when they did it for money I didn’t understand that. I said, “Well, did they like the record?” “Well no, if they got the money for it they’d play it.” And I’d go: “How do you have any credibility?” I couldn’t understand that, so I said, “I don’t want to be part of that.” I said, “As long as I’m involved in the music somehow, I’m going to stay involved in it.”

TODD L. BURNS

How did you first get involved with the industry, so to speak?

Tom Moulton

When I was a kid I worked in a record store. I’d always go in and ask for a record and they’d say, “Oh, who does that?” And I would say who it was and I’d say, “Can you order it for me?” They got so sick of me coming in all the time and asking for a record they didn’t have that they said, “Look, kid, we’d like you to maybe order the 45s for us.” It was 78s and 45s back then. And they said, “We’ll give you $10 a week plus five 45s.” I was like, “Oh man, this is the big time.” You know, when you’re a kid, to get $10 plus five records, I just couldn’t believe it. I did very well and then I did it with the other store in town. I said, “I’d like to order the records here for you, I work for the other store.” And they said, “Well, what are they giving you?” And I said, “Well, they give me $15 a week and ten 45s.” [laughs] I learned quickly about the music business.

[laughter]

TODD L. BURNS

So, I want to play a song and see if you remember it. Early on in your music career, this is a song that I think meant something.

Tom Moulton

Shouldn’t you lower that a little bit before you... Because of an earlier experience today.

TODD L. BURNS

I’m not getting any signal.

(music: Patsy Cline - “I Fall To Pieces”)

Tom Moulton

Oh my God, that’s when I worked at Seeburg.

TODD L. BURNS

So what is this record?

Tom Moulton

[comments over music] It’s “I Fall To Pieces” by Patsy Cline. When I went out to California I lied about my age. To get a driver’s licence in California all you had to do was say, “I’m 20 or 21.” And I was only 17, so I said I was 21 and I was able to get a driver’s licence and that was my ID if I wanted to go to a bar. I wasn’t big on drinking anyway. Anyway, I worked for Seeburg, and Seeburg, they made jukeboxes. They had what they call a one-stop meaning that instead of going... If you wanted to buy records from RCA, you’d go to RCA distributor and buy them, then you’d go Columbia, or you’d go to EMI, or you’d go to all these different labels. And they would be like 41 cents. Now, if you went to a one-stop, the records might be 44 cents but you’re paying for the convenience of only going to a one-stop to get all the records you wanted without going to all these different labels. In those days, if you bought a record before it became a hit, say, if you bought 500, you’d get 250 of them free. I was pretty good at that, and that’s one of those records that I bought and got 250 free and nobody bought it. And then that happened to another record by a Southern guy called Ernie K-Doe called – not Ernie K-Doe, it was Jessie Hill, called “Ooh Poo Pah Doo.” And I just thought that was one of the greatest records. Nothing happened.

TODD L. BURNS

So what happened with the company?

Tom Moulton

A year later, because they really reamed me out for that, saying, “Oh man, we’ve got all this stuff,” and blah-blah-blah. So a year later both those records started to hit. Nobody had the record, we were the only one who had the record, so it worked out, so I thought, “Well, OK, got to move on from here.”

TODD L. BURNS

Where did you move on to?

Tom Moulton

Well, I was fascinated with what they call stereo sound, that was something that was brand new at that time, and I was just fascinated with the realness of it. I mean, mono was like this [gestures] and stereo was this wide, big, beautiful sound and it just had a realism to it. So I worked for a company called Muntz and they developed a playback head or actually a record head/playback head that would record four tracks in the same direction. That’s who I worked for and I just wanted to push the sound of stereo because I thought it helped the music so much.

TODD L. BURNS

What time period are we talking about here? This is late ’50s or so?

Tom Moulton

Yes.

TODD L. BURNS

And one of the things I find fascinating about the business back then is that they were like, whatever, it costs more to do this or it costs more to buy these records in stereo, so...

Tom Moulton

Oh, that was another thing. What happened, you know I keep thinking it was way back then but it was later, now that I think about it. There was an illness in my family and I had to move back east, so I ended up moving to Boston after everything was straightened out with the family. So I worked for a record store for a while until I was able to get into promotion. They had a distributor that distributed records and I wanted to get into promotion again. So I said, “But I’ll work for the record store now.” Again, these hits would come by and albums were like $2.98 at that time. God, I feel like that’s the dark ages, $2.98. But anyway, then stereo was a dollar more, it was $3.98. I was always buying stereo to push it because I thought stereo music was much better than mono. And I remember peeling back a label off a jacket and I said, “Oh my God, the Supremes album was recorded in stereo, maybe I’ll order it.” I tried to order it and they said, “No, that crap don’t sell in stereo.” Anyway, we had to buy 25 of it and my boss had a fit when I bought it. He says, “You better sell every one of those or you’re going to lose your job.” So what did I do? Put it out and started playing it. People would come in and say, “Oh, you got the Supremes album?” Yeah, I said, “You want it mono or stereo?” “Which is cheaper?” And I’d be furious. I’d say, “Listen, you want to hear it like this or do you want to hear it like that?” And they’d go, “Oh my God, listen to that!” And I’m saying, “God, these people know nothing.” No, I mean, I was just fascinated that the music was so much more alive in stereo. I mean, I really feel like I was a pioneer with some of this stuff because people just didn’t know, and I think you have to educate people about things or they don’t learn anything. How are they going to know? By the time they find out for themselves, I mean, if they’re not in the right place at the right time they’re not going to find out until a long time later.

TODD L. BURNS

You eventually, after this time in Boston, went to Europe for a tiny bit?

Tom Moulton

Yeah.

TODD L. BURNS

What were you doing over there?

Tom Moulton

Nothing. I just wanted to go somewhere different, and I was going to go to France, Germany, where else was I going to go? Holland and Switzerland. So I ended up going to Denmark and I loved it. I said, “My God, everbody talks soft,” and everybody was nice and nobody had attitudes. Just everybody went out of their way to be so warm. And I said, “God, I’d like to move here. I mean, everybody’s just so nice.” I was never exposed to people like that before, and boy, coming back here, it was horrible. I remember we had to go through customs, through Canada, and they were under martial law for some reason, there was some terrorist or something. This is back in the early ’70s now and I remember going through customs and you had all these policemen around and military saying, [harsh] “Open your bag! What’s in there?” And they’d go shuffle it all up and he said, “OK, next.” And I said, “Excuse me! I had that bag neatly folded. Now God damn it, I can see why people hate Americans so much.” I really felt like I was Danish and I wasn’t going to take that treatment from these lousy, loudmouthed Americans. I said, “Hey, I had nothing in there, just put it back the way it was.” And I said, “I’m not leaving until you do it.” So this other guy came over, in the military, and I said, “Look, ‘blah-blah-blah’, just straighten it out and close the bag.” And I said, “Thank you so much.” And then the guy next to me said, “Do you have anything to declare?” “No, but my bag is very neat.”

[laughter]

I just thought that was so funny. I don’t know how we got onto that subject.

TODD L. BURNS

If you loved Denmark so much why did you end up coming back?

Tom Moulton

I had to, the money ran out, you know? But it was funny, I was walking through a park – this is a funny story – I was in a bar and not many people speak English. I’m probably going to get red when I tell this story because it really is funny. So this guy comes up to me and he says, “Viggo Holm.” And I went, “I don’t think so.” You don’t think that’s funny, “Ve go home”? I go: “No, I don’t think so.” And he kept saying, “Viggo Holm.” I said, “Get away from me, what the hell are you doing?” I didn’t know that was his name. And then I’m saying, “You know, ‘We go home’?” And then I’m trying to explain to him how I took it. He didn’t get it.

TODD L. BURNS

So you went home to America.

[laughter]

Tom Moulton

No, I did not, no. So anyway, I ended up getting to know him because he was really a nice person, and then I look in the phone book, there’s so many Viggo Holms. I mean, my God, in Denmark it seemed like everybody had the last name Holm. So anyway, he invited me over with some friends to have dinner, so I took a shortcut through the park and I said, “Oh my God, I can’t believe it. I see this old couple sitting on a bench in the park and there was no one else around.” So I got there and I said, “You know, I just saw the most amazing thing. There was this old couple sitting in the park.” And they’re all looking at me. I said, “Yeah, but in New York they’d be dead or mugged by now.”

[laughter]

That’s the thing , and they just looked like, “Yes?” They just looked like I was in a totally different world.

TODD L. BURNS

So when you got back to that totally different world?

Tom Moulton

I didn’t like it, I had a hard time adjusting because...

TODD L. BURNS

What were you doing around that time?

Tom Moulton

What was I doing?

TODD L. BURNS

Work-wise. You said you’d run out of money.

Tom Moulton

Well, I came back and I got a job. You know, I was still modelling. Or actually I didn’t model, no, I went to Europe first. Because when I left United Artists that’s when I quit the record business, and I lost a lot of weight because I broke a tooth in Denmark, but anyway, that’s not a musical story.

TODD L. BURNS

Well, it ended up being a musical story because if you hadn’t become a model...

Tom Moulton

Well yeah, because I realised in the music business you’re constantly, at least if you’re in the promotion end of it, you’re constantly manipulating people. Because you’re trying to get your record played, and you’re conniving, and you’re doing all these different things to get your record played. I just got so sick of doing that. I mean, I just wanted to go and say, “Hey, this is a great record. Play it.” But then I had a better idea. If they’re going to associate me with a good record, why not tell them about somebody else’s record too? So I’d always go in there and say, “Oh, have you heard this song or that song? Well, I think it’s going to be a hit.” And they’d always take your advice if it wasn’t your record. You know, what did you have to gain from it? And then they’d say, “Have you got anything of yours?” “Actually no, I don’t have anything this week. I really don’t have anything that competes with those records.” But anyway, then when I did have a good record most of the time I got it on the air because of that. So it worked out well.

TODD L. BURNS

So you were the best manipulator of all.

Tom Moulton

Well no, because theoretically I was doing good. I didn’t look at it as...

TODD L. BURNS

Yeah. So you’re back in the United States, modelling. You’ve given up the record industry because you hate the hypocrisy, manipulation.

Tom Moulton

Right.

TODD L. BURNS

But then it sucks you back in.

Tom Moulton

So anyway, at the agency I was at, I mentioned that I used to be in the music business. And they said,“Oh, do you know John White?” And I go, “Who’s that?” And they said, “He’s the guy over there,” and he was very British sounding. Little did I know, they call that an affect. [imitates britsh accent] “Oh, hello.” You know? But anyway, he was a New Yorker but he had this kind of accent, so anyway, he had a place in Fire Island. And they said, “Why don’t you come out and see what it’s like?” And I went, “Wow, OK!”

TODD L. BURNS

Sorry, Fire Island, for people who don’t know, sort of had a reputation back then. What did you think when someone said, come to Fire Island?

Tom Moulton

Well, actually I didn’t hear the reputation. Remember, Fire Island’s a very, very big place. I think you’re referring to the gay community. I mean, there’s two areas – I mean, I think of it as a gay community, a lot of people that aren’t gay go there – but those two areas. But Fire Island is a tremendous place and there’s other communities, which I wasn’t aware of.

TODD L. BURNS

I just remember reading an interview where you said you weren’t sure if you wanted to go out there because it was...

Tom Moulton

Well, I heard little things like that, you know, and I said OK. But I figured since John owned the place and we were at the same agency it was fine. Anyway, they had a thing called ‘tea dance’ in the afternoon, and I was so fascinated because they were playing soul records and all these white people were dancing to it. I went, “Oh my God, I found my people!” I could never understand why I always preferred black music, only because I was able to feel it, and I felt like I was very much an emotional sponge when it came to that kind of music, because it just went inside me and affected the way I felt and the way I reacted to the music. And to find other white people that liked that, that absolutely fascinated me. And so then that’s when I got the idea. I was watching how they danced and how they would always...

TODD L. BURNS

How did they dance?

Tom Moulton

Well, you know, they were doing what they called shuffle, and the hustle, and basically they were doing one-two-three-four. And I noticed whenever they left the dancefloor they would leave on ‘one’. And this DJ was terrible. You know, the next record would come in and you don’t know whether you’re dancing to the last song or trying to move your feet to the new song. And I thought, “Well, there has to be a way to do that smoothly, where you’d be able to build them up where they’d get excited over the music.” You can’t get very excited over a song if it’s only two-and-a-half, three minutes long. So anyway, it took me almost 80 hours to do a 45-minute tape. And I had varispeed, so I’d start a song and constantly varispeed it so slow you couldn’t tell it was getting faster. But your body would react to it because the intensity was picking up. And then the next song would come in, and the next song, so by the time I got to the last song you could peel the people off the ceiling. I mean, they were all worked up, and I just thought that was a fascinating thing to do. So the trick was, I said, “If they all leave on ‘one’, then the idea is to get them dancing to a song before you got to ‘one’. Then they’re already dancing to it so they’re not going to walk off, they’re just going to go with it.” And that’s exactly what happened.

TODD L. BURNS

Tell me about putting that tape together. You said it took...

Tom Moulton

80 hours.

TODD L. BURNS

So why did it take 80 hours?

Tom Moulton

Well, because I wanted it to be perfect.

TODD L. BURNS

Can you talk about the construction of the tape?

Tom Moulton

Oh my God! I had a Revox tape machine and it had a little quirk in it. Don’t ask me how, but if you had it set up, you EQ it where you get right to the play. And you cue a record and then you hit record when you want it to come in exactly. You would hear the ambience of the song before, so it would sounded like it was a mix rather than what they call ‘slip cue’ now, I guess they call it. I just didn’t want the interruption of another song, I wanted it to actually sound natural – if that’s the word to use. Anyway, I still remember when I gave him the tape and he said, “Don’t give up your day job.” I didn’t know what [to say]. I just was so hurt over that because it took me hours to make that. And I was sitting on a bench where the boat comes, because you have to get to Fire Island by a boat, a ferry. So I was sitting there waiting and this fellow said, “Are you okay?” I said, “Why?” He said, “You look like you lost your best friend or your dog or something.” I explained my story and said, “John didn’t like my tape.” And he said, “Look, the guy’s an idiot. I don’t do the music but my partner does. If you want I’ll let him hear it.” I said, “OK.” He said, “Just put your name, your phone number. We’ll call you and let you know.” So I gave him the tape and I got a call that following weekend, it was Saturday they called me, and they said they hated it. Absolutely hated it. I didn’t know what to do, I was so down over that. I said, “Well, maybe I’m wrong.” So two o’clock in the morning I get a phone call and there’s all this noise, these crazy people waking me up. This happened three or four times and finally I just took the phone off the hook. So the next morning, Sunday morning, I get a phone call, “Hi Tom, it’s Ron from The Sandpiper. They loved the tape.” I said, “Ron, I only gave you one tape. You told me they hated it.” He said, “No, no, no. On Friday nights they want to unwind because they’ve been working all week in the city. They want familiarity, they want things they know. You’ve got so much new music on there that they don’t know. So on Saturday they’ve had the day on the beach and now they’re ready to dance, ready to move, and they want something new.” So Saturday night they loved it. That’s how I got involved, that led to going into mixing in a studio, so it’s fascinating how I got drawn back into the business like that.

TODD L. BURNS

You were going around to record companies, because they asked you to make more tapes, and looking for instrumentals.

Tom Moulton

Right.

TODD L. BURNS

And then you somehow got involved in mixing tunes.

Tom Moulton

Well, someone asked me if I could – I did something experimental with it and they said, “Could you do that in a studio?” I said, “I’m not that familiar with it but I’ll do it the best I can.” And, of course, everything I was doing was exactly different than how you make a record. So I said, “I want to do this and this and this...” “Well, that’s not how it’s done.” And I go, “Yeah, but I want to do it that way.”

TODD L. BURNS

What were some of those things that you were doing differently?

Tom Moulton

Well, like, I would drop out the vocal and then I would raise the strings. And they would go, “That sounds weird.” I said, “It sounds weird to you but it don’t sound weird to me.” But it seemed like I was fighting all the time. One thing I’ve learned living this long is, if you want to do something and you believe in it, don’t let anybody say, “That’s not the way it’s done.” Because you got to follow what you feel, and that’s where you get into that place where when you achieve something, you achieved it because you believe in it even though everybody tries to say, “No, no, that’s not the way to do it.” You do it. Then if it fails you say, fine, but at least you tried. So that’s why I like to encourage people, if they have something they want to try in music, try it, don’t listen to anybody else, just try it.

TODD L. BURNS

When you turned in your first mix, so they were like, “This is not how it’s done, you can’t do it this way”?

Tom Moulton

Yeah, well, they hated it. The group hated it. And then when they were on Soul Train, when it was a #1 record, “Yeah, that’s the way we recorded it.” Oh, I was so angry. [laughs] “Yeah, we did it that way, that’s the way we did it.”

TODD L. BURNS

What did you do to the record, and what record are we talking about?

Tom Moulton

 ”Do It (’Til You’re Satisfied),” B.T. Express.

TODD L. BURNS

Should we maybe listen to it?

Tom Moulton

Oh, you have that?

TODD L. BURNS

Yeah, I think so.

Tom Moulton

Oh, OK. This wasn’t planned, he was playing other songs before this. That’s why I’m surprised he has that.

(music: B.T. Express – “Do It (’Til You’re Satisfied)”)

Tom Moulton

[comments over music] And white people loved it.

TODD L. BURNS

So what was it that the group hated?

Tom Moulton

When the organ comes in. They said, “You cut out my vocal.” I said, “Yeah, but it sounds like the guy got so hot feeling the groove that he hit the organ.” This song was so suggestive, that’s what I loved about it. See I think in this country they really tried to keep white music for white people and black music for black people. I could never understand that. You know, it’s like the South versus the North. In the South they accept black music because that’s the kind of music they play down there, but up here they just... I don’t know, I could never understand it. [organ comes in] That part, damn, it’s just so... It’s what we call the shiii... [laughs] I notice a lot of people tapping their feet, and that’s exactly what it’s supposed to do, shake your bones.

TODD L. BURNS

So how long is this song?

Tom Moulton

Not long enough. I think it’s probably five thirty-five.

TODD L. BURNS

Seems like a lot of your records are five minutes and thirty-five seconds.

Tom Moulton

Well, it’s like, when you’re successful at something, it’s like saying, well, maybe that’s a good luck charm. I didn’t plan on making them. Well, maybe when it came to the fade I might rush it a little bit so it gets to five thirty- five. But no, I was quite successful with five thirty-five.

TODD L. BURNS

For a pop song it’s quite long, right? And was there a lot of feedback from people again saying you can’t put this on radio?

Tom Moulton

Well, that was the whole thing. When I went to master it the mastering engineer said, “There’s too much bass, there’s too much low end. You’re not going to get any level.” That was with the edited version. So when I went into the studio I had to remix it because of that. Say I said, “OK, let’s get rid of the low end on of the kick drum and put more of a knock.” See, as long you had that kick in there, I think that had a lot to do with changing the kick to almost where it sounds like a low snare rather than a kick drum.

TODD L. BURNS

So that was a pretty big chart success.

Tom Moulton

Yeah, and the only place from there to go is down. You know, when you go here and then you go, well, what are you going to follow it up with? Well, then the follow up was Al Downing and Gloria Gaynor, so...

TODD L. BURNS

So, not a bad second and third act.

Tom Moulton

Right. But again, all these things when people say, “Oh my God, you created the break and you did the 12" and you did this...” I say, “Yeah, but they’re all accidents, every single one of them.” Because that wasn’t the plan, to create. And like creating the break, a song modulated, so I had to get everything out that was musical. Then I would bring the conga and the hi-hat just so it would carry the rhythm. Then when I bring the bass in or a Fender Rhodes, people say, “Oh yeah, the song modulates twice.” Well, it doesn’t, it modulates once, but because you do 16 bars of just percussion, they don’t remember what key it’s in. So then it sounds like it modulates again.

TODD L. BURNS

Let’s talk about one of those accidents, the 12". You go in to mix a record, to put it on an acetate, rather. And they’re out of the normal 7"s.

Tom Moulton

They’re out of 7" blanks. See what I would do is, I’d be in Philadelphia four nights a week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And Thursday I never slept for like 12 years, because I’d come right straight back to New York and it would be Friday morning. Then I’d go to Media Sounds, which is where I mastered the records. And they didn’t have any 7" blanks. I always believe that when you present a record company with something you’ve done, you ought to present it in its highest form. So if you play it like it’s going to sound on a record, then you have everything working in your favour. So they didn’t have any, all they had was 12". I said, “Oh my God, what am I going to do? OK, just cut it.” It was cut in spec, meaning you had this disc that was this big [gestures] and you had this much groove in the middle. And I go, “What is that? I can’t give that to somebody.” I said, “Can you start it from there and spread the grooves, just make it where it looks likes there’s more?” They said, “Yeah, we got to raise the level then.” I said, “OK, just raise the level.” And of course it was cut plus eight. I said, “Oh my God!” And then I listened to it and I went to the record company. They didn’t know what the hell to do with that. Then I realised, I said, “Hey, if my record sounds that much better than everybody else’s, I’m not going to tell anybody.” See, the promotion man was coming out in me again, the advantage. That’s how it started. People say, “Oh my God, you created the 12",” and I went, “No, they didn’t have any 7" blanks.”

[laughter]

TODD L. BURNS

It took a long time. Again, this kind of goes back to the mono/stereo situation, it took a long time for companies to get used to the idea of a 12" and want to make them.

Tom Moulton

Well, like I said, people don’t like to change. I can understand why, it’s the unknown that they don’t like. You like the security of what you know. It’s difficult, you always have to prove it for them to do it. So they were making just DJ promo copies of 12"s originally, and Ken Cayre who owns Salsoul Records, said, “You know, I’m going to make a commercial 12".” I said, “I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s going to sell or not.” Well, believe me, it sold. And then everybody started making those 12"s. But people are afraid, they don’t want to try something new. You always feel like you’re a pioneer when you step outside or cross that line, because you’re all by yourself. That’s why I said earlier, if you have something you believe in, at least develop it to where someone can say, “I don’t like it.” Or, “I love it.” At least get to that place. I’ll give you another example of what I’m trying to say. How many people do you know that played guitar, and they got married and had kids and had to give it up? “Oh man, if I kept my guitar, man, I would have blown Jimi Hendrix out of the water.” I’ve heard that story so many times, and I said, “Well, you’re going to spend your whole life thinking that you would have been this thing, and never gave yourself that opportunity? Why didn’t you wait a year before you got married, at least?” “Oh yeah, I should have done that.” That’s why I say, you know, these little dreams you have and everything, give them a chance and try it.

TODD L. BURNS

So tell me about Gloria Gaynor and working with her.

Tom Moulton

Yes, working with her. OK, “Never Can Say Goodbye...” Well, “Honey Bee” was already recorded and they were talking about doing an album. They recorded “Never Can Say Goodbye,” that was a Jackson 5 record, and they were doing a fast version of it. Because the guys that produced Gloria Gaynor also produced Don Downing and Al Downing. I mixed both those records, earlier, so they asked me to do something with the album. I said OK, and I had this idea because DJs are always complaining they have no time to go out and go to the bathroom, or have a sandwich, there’s no time. I thought, “I’m going to do something nice for DJs, I’m going to make a medley and put it together like it’s one song and it’s 18 minutes.” So if you can’t eat a sandwich in 18 minutes, give up, you know?

[laughter]

Anyway, I thought I was I being nice to the DJ, and there was no other reason to do it except for that. I remember finishing it and going back to Jay’s office and Gloria was sitting there. He says, “Here, Tom finished the album, let’s put it on and see what you think.” So we put the needle on and she’s sitting there. After 18 minutes Jay goes, “What do you think, Gloria?” “Uh, I don’t sing much.”

[laughter]

I wanted to die, I wanted to die. And then I said, “Well, when you perform it live you just have to pick up on your dance steps, that’s all.” I didn’t know what else to say, I really didn’t. And I said, “But I’m doing it for the DJs.” That’s why I was doing it, I wasn’t doing it for her, I was doing it for the DJs.

TODD L. BURNS

Were you going out much and clubbing?

Tom Moulton

No. Because the bass, it was so loud it was hurting my ears all the time.

TODD L. BURNS

But you were talking to them and figuring out what it was that they wanted.

Tom Moulton

Well, people would always say, “How do you know how to mix a record if you’re not watching them dance?” I said, “Trust me, I know what they’ll dance to.” Because I felt it. I go by what I feel.

TODD L. BURNS

So you mentioned earlier you were in Philadelphia quite a bit. How did that relationship start with that city? This was with Sigma, right?

Tom Moulton

Yes. It wasn’t easy. Because mind you, I wasn’t an engineer then. Not that I am now, I mean I work in Pro Tools, but if I heard something, I knew what I wanted it to sound like. When I got down to Philadelphia I mixed a song called “I Just Can’t Say Goodbye” by The Philly Devotions. I edited it and put it together, and Columbia wanted to buy the master. So they said, “We’ll have the tape come over here, where do you want to try to do it?” I said, “Actually, I like that sound that studio has, I’d like to go down there and try it.” Well anyway, I go down there and I meet the manager of the studio, we go upstairs to Studio A and there are all the engineers, the owner of the studio Joe Tarsia. So the first thing, “You’re from New York?” And I go, like I look behind me. I didn’t know what to say, I felt like I was in front of a firing squad, it was embarrasing. “So you’re from New York?” “Uh, yeah.” So I said, “OK, let’s put the tape up and let me see what’s there.” So we played a little bit of it and I hit the stop button, I said, “OK, now you hear that?” “Yes.” “That’s not what I’m looking for.” And then I soloed the kick drum, I said, “I want the kick to sound like this, and I want the bass to sound like this.” “Well, that’s not how you do it.” I said, “No, that’s not how you do it but that’s how I do it.” “Tell me why?”, “That is how everybody else does it.” I said, “That’s not a good reason. Just because everybody else doesn’t do it, I can’t do it? I’m sorry but that’s not how I think.” I mean, it would seem like every single rule, I wanted to break. But then a lot of them would become standard operating procedure. And yet, what they used to do when they’d make a TV track for an artist – in other words, a TV track meaning if there was a lead vocal, and they want to perform it live on television, they’d have a backing track with background vocals, without the lead, and she would sing it live. What they’d do is, they’d always put it in mono and they’d raise it three dB. I said, “No, I want it exactly the same.” “Well, that’s not how it’s done.” I said, “There’s an ulterior motive for doing it that way.” “What?” “Because if I have to edit the single and take out a word...” And that’s why I did a straight instrumental too, so if I wanted I can make an edit anywhere, right after a vocal, because they’re all identical. And they said, “Well, that’s crazy, nobody does it that way.” But then after a while everybody did it that way because it was so easy to edit. That’s why I was doing it, just for the editing, not because I wanted to make a TV track in stereo the same way as the single sounded. It’s interesting how you go out to do one thing and it creates something else.

TODD L. BURNS

Philadelphia had a pretty identifiable sound by that point.

Tom Moulton

It’s called class.

[laughter]

That sound, that studio, I don’t care what it was, but you were like in this other world. They had way of describing it, it’s called “Soul music in tuxedos.” If you know what that means.

TODD L. BURNS

What were some of the records that made you want to go down there, specifically, and work in that studio?

Tom Moulton

Oh my God, there’s so many of them. Well, The Stylistics and The Delfonics and The Spinners, songs like that. And of course, Three Degrees. I mean, just the sound, it was like soul done classical style.

TODD L. BURNS

Gamble and Huff were the two main guys down there?

Tom Moulton

Well, they thought so! Thom Bell was there, Thom Bell was really the one that started the way that sound came about, because The Delfonics were first. And then The Stylistics and The O’Jays and all the other groups started, but it was basically Thommy Bell first.

TODD L. BURNS

And you were spending Monday through Thursday there?

Tom Moulton

Correct.

TODD L. BURNS

So what was it about that city and that studio that kept you down there for so many years?

Tom Moulton

Well, first of all that room, I was very comfortable in. Secondly, New York is like that tempo [clicks fingers]. Philadelphia [slowly clicks fingers], so their idea of rushing is my idea of relaxing. When you go to a studio in New York they give you hired string players. They would come in, “Hurry up, we got another date downtown in another studio so we can only be here 45 minutes.” Everybody’s in a hurry, rush, rush, rush. I mean, come on. And I thought, “This is wonderful.” I really feel like I’m relaxing because I’m on a New York pace and down there it’s like hopping off the bandwagon, it’s wonderful.

TODD L. BURNS

So let’s play a record that you put together in Philadelphia.

Tom Moulton

Well, there’s like 5000 of them, so...

TODD L. BURNS

We’ll just play one for now.

(music: MFSB – “Love Is The Message”)

TODD L. BURNS

So this 11 minutes, so we’ll cut it a tiny bit short, or a lot bit short.

Tom Moulton

Yeah, cut out the good parts, right.

[laughter]

TODD L. BURNS

Shall we listen to some more?

Tom Moulton

You’d be a great serial killer, the way you attack the best part of the song. We don’t have to hear any more, but it’s amazing, this song I mixed it for an album called...

TODD L. BURNS

What is this song?

Tom Moulton

“Love Is The Message.” I mean, the title doesn’t get any better than that. I mixed a song for Gamble and Huff called “Do It Any Way You Wanna” to show them what I could do. Well, I should probably explain first of all, the general manager of Sigma asked me if I wanted to do something with Gamble and Huff and I said, “Gamble and Huff don’t need me for anything, they’re doing all their own records.” And I was bringing my records down there to work on. They said, “Well, Tom, we want to keep it in the family. This is like a family down here.” And I went, “OK, what have you got?” He gave me some acetates of some albums that were in the can and said, “See if you find something there that you like.” So I listened to this one song by People Choice called “Do It Any Way You Wanna,” and I said, “I can can kill two birds with one stone with this.” What it was, people in New York were starting to say to me, “Man, I don’t know what they’re doing down in Philadelphia but they’re whiting up soul music.” I said, “What are you talking about, whiting up soul music?” “All those strings and horns and everything, man, that ain’t the way soul music is.” So I kind of had that in the back of my brain. I said, “Alright, ‘Do It Any Way You Wanna,’ there’s no strings or horns on it, I’m going to take that one.” And I said, “But I got to make it a little slower just so it’s in that aggressive tempo.” It was so funny because at that particular time, at least in New York, people were walking around with boomboxes, and I just had that in mind when I did this. But I have to stand up and show you what I’m talking about, it’s so funny. When you see somebody doing exactly what you dreamed they’d be doing, they’re playing that record, right? They go... [stomps across the room aggressively humming the tune, miming a boombox on his shoulder] Like, better get out of my way! I mean, the thing was it was it so wonderful to see that, because I wanted it to be aggressive. And man, did I start getting phone calls. My name wasn’t on the record, they left my name off the record, and then I found out later that was because that’s the only record Huff ever had that Gamble’s name wasn’t on that was a million-seller. It just said, “Produced by Leon Huff,” no Gamble on it at all. I said OK, but I had more black guys call me up, “Can you mix my record? You gonna mix my record?” I said, “What do you mean?” “You did ‘Do It Any Way You Wanna.’ Can you get me that bass sound?” They wanted that bass, the way I did the bass on that record. But that’s the thing I love about the music business, when you can turn so many people on to a sound, where they just get all excited and it gets into their bones and rattles them. I love doing that, I like to see people react to music, because music is a wonderful thing.

TODD L. BURNS

“Love Is The Message,” the original, was quite a bit shorter, and you lengthened it.

Tom Moulton

Yes, right.

TODD L. BURNS

And you wanted to add some stuff.

Tom Moulton

Oh, I tricked... Oh, you mean that part. First of all, after the success of “Do It Any Way You Wanna,” Harry Tippit, who was the general manager said, “Tom, why don’t you come up with a concept for a Philadelphia International album.” I said OK, and then I thought and thought about it, and then I said, “I got an idea, why don’t I come up with something called the Philadelphia Classics?” I picked all the songs and Gamble said, “Why are you using that song? That wasn’t a hit.” I said, “Yeah, but Kenny, I really like that song.” “Yeah, but that’s not a hit.” I said, “Well, then I’d rather not even do the album.” And the song was “Love Is The Message,” that was the one that wasn’t a hit. I just wanted to get my hands on that song because I figured that was the closest thing I would ever get to Philadelphia meets the London Symphony Orchestra. I mean, I just thought this was classical soul. I don’t know how else to describe it, but to me it just had so many movements and passages that just take you to this other place. And then I realised that one part of the song, I wanted to extend. I listened to it, Huff wasn’t really going crazy on the keyboard. So they were over at the other studio, 309, which is in the other part of town, and they were working on The Jacksons then. So I got my engineer, I says, “Look, let’s hook up the Rhodes, we’ll cover it up, and get me a ladder so I can unscrew the record light.” He said, “You can’t do that.” I said, “Damn it, just get me the ladder.” So I unscrewed the record light and Huff came over. I said, “Arthur, let me hear the monitor mix first, I want to make sure that the snare and the bass and the hi-hat are the loudest thing he hears.” So Huff comes over and I said, “Here, I just want you to play from here.” And they said OK. I said, “Alright Arthur, roll the tape,” meaning hit the record button. And, of course, the light didn’t go in the studio, so Huff didn’t know we were recording. So he’s looking at me, he’s grooving with it which I knew he would, he’s looking at me and I’m going [gestures], meaning, ‘continue to play’. Afterwards, we got to the end of the song, and Huff goes, “Let me hear that back.” And Arthur goes OK, and I says, “OK what? How can you play something you didn’t record?” “Oh, that’s right, I didn’t record it.” And I went, “Oh boy, this is going to be fun.” So anyway the song comes out and Huff caught me going up the stairs one day. He goes, “Moulton, where’d that piano part come from?” I said, “It was on the tape.” That’s all I ever said to him, “It’s on the tape, why are you asking me? It’s on the tape!”

TODD L. BURNS

It just magically appeared.

Tom Moulton

Well no, because he couldn’t understand where that piano part came from, and he knew we didn’t record it. Then when I think about it Arthur could have got fired over that, because that was the studio’s biggest client and you’re doing something behind Gamble and Huff’s back like that. But it worked out, it was a big success, that record.

TODD L. BURNS

Did you have a good relationship with those guys otherwise?

Tom Moulton

As good as anybody can have with them.

TODD L. BURNS

What does that mean?

Tom Moulton

I think it means exactly that. I mean, they’re Gamble and Huff and I’m Tom Moulton, so we both happened to work in the same field. There’s that mutual respect but we’re not like pals.

TODD L. BURNS

Moving forward, you worked on a record, I guess in Philadelphia with Grace Jones. A couple of records.

Tom Moulton

Yes...

TODD L. BURNS

Why do you say ‘yes’ like that?

Tom Moulton

Well, you know, Grace Jones, I just wish that she had more talent in the beginning because she had a determination that was so unreal. I’ve never met anybody like that. I’d say, “Grace, we’re going to do this for this record,” and she goes, “Whatever it takes.” And she meant it. Whatever it takes, she was going to do it. And I give her a lot of credit, she took the singing lessons, she took this, she took that. I mean, she was going to make it one way or the other, and she did with that determination. It’s like when we were doing “I Need A Man,” I kept saying to her, you know, [Russian accent] “I need a man, perhaps a man like you.” I said, “Stop with the Bela Lugosi accent, it’s just not working for me!” “I want to suck your blood,” it’s the same thing she’s doing.

[laughter]

“Grace, come on, let’s try to get rid of that accent.” I sound like I was making fun of her, I wasn’t, I was just going crazy with this. [imitates accent] “When I’m feeling lonely...” What the hell is this? She’s American, you know, where’d she get that accent from? I’m not easy when it comes to producing and I tell them, I’m not trying to build a friendship here, I’m trying to make you sound the best I can.

TODD L. BURNS

So are you a real taskmaster in the studio?

Tom Moulton

I’m more of a ball-buster, to be honest with you, I really am. Because I don’t believe in wasting time in the studio. You rehearse at home or you rehearse in a rehearsal studio, but when you go into the studio the record button’s on. Because, you’re basically paying $125 an hour – that was back then – and I always say, “It’s against you, it doesn’t come out of me. It comes out of your money, just remember that.”

TODD L. BURNS

So you’re not winning friends and influencing people?

Tom Moulton

I never tried to.

TODD L. BURNS

Grace kind of left before the record was done.

Tom Moulton

Oh no, after the success of the first album it was time to do the second album. And her managers Sy and Ilene Berlin, all of a sudden, they were like the help, the caterers. And she came down, “Oh Grace, you want some orange juice before you sing?” “Oh no, that’s alright. I’ll just sit here and rest a minute.” I go, “What the hell is this crap? Is this a soap opera? Come on, we’re here to work.” “Tom, Tom, take it easy with her, she’s had a rough day.” I said, “And I haven’t? Come on, let’s get going!” So we’re going in the studio, and she really, “Oh, can I have a cough drop?” “Oh, give me a break with this today.” So I said, “God damn it, Grace, with so little you can please so many.” And then I walked back in the control room. The next thing I hear is, “Tom, Grace isn’t going to sing until you apologise.” “Oh, OK.” I picked up my jacket and briefcase and left, and I went back to New York. About two hours later, the phone rings, “Tom? We’re in the studio.” I said, “Well, I hope you’re working.” They said, “How come you’re in New York?” And I said, “Well, you said Grace wasn’t going to sing unless I apologise and no way in hell am I apologising, so it ain’t going to happen.” So it got kind of testy for a while, so I said, “Look, let’s keep it on a professional basis. When you come down here you’re supposed to know the songs and sing. That’s what I expect from you, and I’ll do my job, OK?” I wouldn’t settle for anything less than that. But I didn’t like it because you almost have to be a babysitter to everybody, you know. “Oh, did you hurt your little finger? You want me to kiss it for you?” It’s terrible, I really had a hard time. I got spoiled by just putting up the multitrack and not having to deal with artists. I remember Stevie Wonder came in one time and said, “Tom, do you mind if I... Since you’re not recording...” I said, “No, I’m just mixing.” He said, “You don’t mind if I go in there and play piano in the studio?” I said, “No,” and he goes, “You don’t mind if I smoke, do you?” I said, “Hey, if you want to kill yourself, go for it.” I didn’t mean for it to come out [like that] but he meant smoke a joint. I didn’t quite understand the whole drug thing. So he said, “OK. Yeah, I know, I’ll make sure I smoke towards the back.” I said OK, but that was very funny.

[laughter]

TODD L. BURNS

I also recently read that you went to Jamaica at some point and were doing some mixing down there.

Tom Moulton

Smuggling tapes out.

TODD L. BURNS

Smuggling tapes out of Jamaica?

Tom Moulton

Yes, oh God, did I love doing that because I loved reggae.

TODD L. BURNS

When did you first hear reggae, and how did you become interested in it?

Tom Moulton

Good question. I wish I could remember exactly when I heard it, but when I did – back in the early ’70s there was this thing, I didn’t quite understand it, where professional people who were making a lot of money could invest in a music project. Say, they invested $10,000 and it failed, they could write off more than that. I didn’t quite get it. So I had this idea to go down to Studio 1, which was an early label down in Jamaica owned by Clement Dodd. And they did everything two-track on regular Harmon Kardon machines that you’d buy in a store, it wasn’t professional equipment. They would record to two-track then bounce it to another two-track to mono, to have an open track, and then record on that and bounce it again back. So back and forth, back and forth. I had this crazy idea to go down there and get these tapes and sync them up together to have the first stage of each thing. Well, I lost everybody by explaining it. “Oh, take your time, spend as much money as you want.” They wanted me to spend as much money as I could, because when it failed they’d get this big deduction. Well, Birth Of A Legend didn’t fail, so that was the Bob Marley & The Wailers album, and they were ready to kill me. But at least I got something out of it. I wonder how I got sidetracked to that story.

TODD L. BURNS

How were you smuggling? You said “smuggling” tapes out of Jamaica.

Tom Moulton

Clem Dodd, at that time in Jamaica, I guess his name was Manley, and he says anything Jamaican doesn’t leave Jamaica.

TODD L. BURNS

Sorry, who is Manley?

Tom Moulton

Manley was the governor. And this was, like I said, the early ’70s. Clem Dodd, I guess, was connected somehow, because I was a white guy going into these really ghetto black areas, to these places where they have a little shack on the corner and you have a speaker outside and they’d be playing this reggae music. I’d be going there saying, “Oh yeah, I got to get that one,” you know, and they look at me like, “God, is he part black or what? He’s taking his life into his hands coming here.” But it was all about the music. Any time the name Clem Dodd was mentioned, “Clem Dodd’s friend,” nobody said anything to me. So anyway, I’m going through customs and my bag is all loaded with Bob Marley tapes and The Heptones, and these guys are really putting people through the ringer. So I said, “I know I’m going to get arrested, I’m not going to leave the island, I just know it.” I’m shaking and twitching and everything else. Just before I get to open the bag, “Let’s see what you got. Do this, do that.” So anyway, the cab driver goes over and whispers something to them. I start to open my bag and he goes, “Next!”

[laughter]

I went, “My God, I can’t believe this is happening.” “Next!” Like, “Go, get out!” I couldn’t believe that.

TODD L. BURNS

He said you were Clem Dodd’s friend.

Tom Moulton

Oh yes, that’s all he had to say, “Clem Dodd’s friend.”

TODD L. BURNS

Seems like you have a lot of exciting border-crossing stories.

Tom Moulton

Well, you know what, I hate to say it – I don’t hate to say it because it’s true – but I worked for several people like that. And you know, the nice thing about them was they were always as good as their word. They would always, if they agreed to something, even though it was a bad deal for them, they would honour it because they agreed to it. But I must say the record company always tried to twist and jerk a little bit. They’d always leave themselves some wiggle room, so they could say, “Oh, we didn’t really mean that.”

TODD L. BURNS

And you eventually gave up the music business again for a little while, right?

Tom Moulton

Yeah, well, what happened was...

TODD L. BURNS

And when was this?

Tom Moulton

1982.

TODD L. BURNS

OK, so after the Grace Jones albums?

Tom Moulton

Oh yeah. No, what happened was, I had an attorney who said, “Oh, you know you’re getting old.” I said, “Jeez, I’m thinking that’s 30 years ago I’m getting old and now I’m still doing it, so that didn’t work.” But anyway, “You work hard all your life.” I said, “This isn’t work, it’s fun! Working on music’s fun. I don’t call it work. I call it getting paid for a hobby.” But anyway he said, “Well, we’ll do this thing. I have a deal for you. They’ll set you up in an office in New York.” Which they did. This was through Casablanca, I had my own label, and you know, “You produce three albums a year for your label and then you can keep three outside artists.” I said, “OK. So what do I keep? I keep the Trammps, I keep Grace Jones and I keep Gloria Gaynor.” And it was a nightmare, it was an absolute nightmare. I did the six albums by the end of March, all six albums were done, and I couldn’t do anything else. It was killing me, absolutely killing me. And then Neil Bogart died, and Casablanca was called Polygram then. I love Ekke Schnabel, he’s German, he was the head of Polydor, Deutsche Grammaphon, that whole company. And he says, [imitates German accent] “We have $100,000 for settlement and we have a thousand times that for litigation.” So I said, “See you in court,” because it was the principle of it. I said, “You signed an agreement.” So my lawyer – and oh, I was on the phone, this was at Casablanca and I was in California, and my attorney was also on the line and he said – I said, “Well, Toby’s not going to go for that.” And he said, [German accent] “We know how to handle him.” And I went, “Oh my God.” And there was silence, and all of a sudden I hear, “Hey, Ekke.” And it was Toby! Am I red now? Because it’s an embarrasing story. I just couldn’t believe it, and after that I says, “I’m getting out of this business, you know, they’re all scumbags.” I really mean it. I said, “Why sign a contract and you’re not going to honour it?” I couldn’t understand that.

TODD L. BURNS

So what did you do in those years when you were not doing music?

Tom Moulton

Let me see. I got a nice condo in Florida, which I hated because I hate the heat. And I lived out in East Hampton. I liked that, that was fun. Someone said, “Learn to play bridge, it challenges your mind.” So I became like a junior master at bridge and I said, “I’m still waiting for the mind- challenging part,” because I still wanted to be... I didn’t want to be involved in music, but that really affected ten years of my life. What happened was, I came back to the city and the guy who used to own Salsoul called me and said, “You know, my kids, they’re growing up now.” And I went, “Oh my God, I can’t believe it already, they’re little kids and now they’re in their early twenties.” He said, “I’m thinking of starting the label again and we’re going to get this person.” And I went, “Oh my God, you can’t get that person, he’s a crook.” And I said, “Look, I’ll come back and help you set it up.” And, of course, the minute I got in there it was like everyone was saying, “God, you’re so different, Tom, you seem so up.” And I realised how I was kind of in this coma for ten years, because I didn’t react to things, because I wasn’t involved in the music business anymore.

TODD L. BURNS

So Salsoul brought you back in. What were you doing for them exactly?

Tom Moulton

Well, it seemed like everything. No, but I was doing mixes again and mastering, and of course, I am very protective of the tapes of Salsoul. I was. In fact, when they were selling the company, the owner comes in and he said, “We’re just getting rid of all these tapes.” And I says, “But Kenny, you’re selling the company.” I said, “Those are assets. You don’t want to get rid of the assets, do you?” He said, “End of era.” I couldn’t believe it, he wanted to throw all his tapes out. And I just said, “I’m just going stay away from people, give me the tape, I’ll mix the record and I’ll live in my world of beautiful music and everything is wonderful,” you know?

TODD L. BURNS

How had the music industry changed in the time that you had left and then you had come back?

Tom Moulton

Well, music disappeared.

TODD L. BURNS

What do you mean by that?

Tom Moulton

Well, hum me a song that you like. Hum me a Jay-Z record.

TODD L. BURNS

Uh, I’m not sure I get your point.

Tom Moulton

Yeah, well, but I loved the music. I’ll give you an example. Here in New York in stores, you’ll hear music in the store, and you’ll hear some contemporary stuff. And all of a sudden you’ll hear the beginning of “When Will I See You Again” and people always just stop and look up at the ceiling, because it’s like you’re getting bombarded with stardust in heaven. It just makes you stop. And I’m saying to myself, “That’s what’s missing today, is that part of music, because it’s not like that anymore”.

TODD L. BURNS

So the songwriting, you’re saying.

Tom Moulton

Yeah, and the arrangement and everything. I don’t know what it’s about. It’s getting a message out there but it sure ain’t love.

TODD L. BURNS

Why do you think that’s changed?

Tom Moulton

Well, it’s like I say, we always fall back in that safe area. But when young people today have the late ’80s and ’90s to go back to as what they call music, that’s what they’re basing everything on. I base everything... Well, remember I was exposed to music because my parents were musicians, so I heard music in the ’40s. But basically, being 11, 12, 13, that’s when music starts having an effect on you. So basically, it should have been rock & roll but still there were melodies in that stuff. There were beautiful ballads and ‘up’ songs, but we don’t get those today.

TODD L. BURNS

You’re mixing and still working on new music these days.

Tom Moulton

Yes, but I try to make it sound real as opposed to being created out of a box.

TODD L. BURNS

How do you do that?

Tom Moulton

Well, if you’re used to a drum sounding a certain way or a snare sounding a certain way, you basically want it to sound real. So I’ll do everything to make it sound real, because I can’t make it sound not real because it doesn’t sound real to me. I know that sounds crazy but when you’re used to strings sounding like strings and horns sounding like horns... But even computer-generated horns, I can create the effect that they sound ‘real’ only because that’s the way horns should sound. A lot of the kids today don’t have that default background because they never experienced it.

TODD L. BURNS

What sort of setup do you have? You’re working from home these days?

Tom Moulton

Correct, yeah.

TODD L. BURNS

It must be quite a bit different than working in an enormous studio.

Tom Moulton

Well, I have a 16-track machine, I have a 24-track machine and I have an eight-track machine, I have a four-track machine and a three-track machine, so no it’s not. [laughs] And tapes everywhere, stacks and stacks of tapes. So hopefully I’ll live to be 130 and be able to get most of them done. But I’m very content. It looks like a studio because there’s cables running all over the place, but I work in an old version of what we call Pro Tools. The reason I work in that old system is because we had plug-ins that emulated the real reverbs and ambience of those analogue sounds. And now things are so digitized, they’re so sterile sounding, no matter how much warmth you try to get on them, and ambience, it falls dead, it doesn’t sound real. It’s like they don’t understand what real ambience is about, and I can’t work with music like that. When you hear a record, and you go to hear them play at a concert or something, you hear the ambience of the room and everything, it doesn’t sound so sterile. So why would you want it to sound sterile on the record? I don’t understand that.

TODD L. BURNS

What do you listen for in a record when you want to decide to make a mix of it?

Tom Moulton

Well, I hear something how I would do it. I listen to it and I go, OK, OK, OK. That’s only if I’m going to work on something, but most of the time I won’t listen like that. I’ll just accept it for what it is and either I like it or I don’t.

TODD L. BURNS

And what are you working on these days?

Tom Moulton

Well, I just finished Philly ReGrooved 3, it’s a series we put out in the UK, and I’m working on one half of the group that used to be called Drizabone, out of the UK. What else am I doing? My God, I’m doing so much stuff. I’m doing some more Philly stuff.

TODD L. BURNS

What is it about that stuff that really still holds you enthralled to it?

Tom Moulton

But, those things sell, those albums sell very well.

TODD L. BURNS

The ReGrooved compilations?

Tom Moulton

Yeah, and the Philadelphia Classics, it’s still a big hit in the UK because people like that music.

TODD L. BURNS

What were you going back and doing to some of those records?

Tom Moulton

Well, what’s interesting, because some of the ones I mixed like 35 years ago, you go back to it and you say, “My God, how would you approach...” Your head’s in a different place. I always like to say, “You know a lot more than you did back then.” So that kind of helps too. No, but it’s interesting. I mean, I’m always fascinated by what the outcome’s going to be. I have a general idea of what it’s going to be, but then you hear something that you didn’t hear before and you take it in another direction. It’s like anything, you need what I call that dangling carrot to draw you in to something to make you want to do it. And I’m very brutal when it comes to some these things. I had somebody just yesterday send me something and say, “Well, what do you think of it?” I said, “It’s not my kind of thing.” I didn’t know what else to say, because I didn’t want to say it’s a piece of garbage. But yet, I don’t understand it.

TODD L. BURNS

I want to open up to questions in just a minute, but I guess the last question I have for you is: back in the ’70s you were a journalist for a little bit. You roll your eyes.

Tom Moulton

Because I knew about disco they asked me to write about it. I said, “I’m not a writer.”

TODD L. BURNS

This is Billboard magazine.

Tom Moulton

Yes. I’m not a writer, and I wouldn’t write about my own things. They said, “Well, why don’t you write about Gloria Gaynor.” I said, “I can’t write about my own records!” They said, “No, no, you’re honest,” and I go, “Wow, that’s a compliment.” So I had to think of myself as being objective, writing about it, and it was very interesting how Tom Moulton, the guy who mixes, is different from Tom Moulton the guy who’s typing.

TODD L. BURNS

You had, I guess it was a cover story about a record that was selling quite a bit but radio wasn’t playing. Do I have that right? Gloria Gaynor, I think?

Tom Moulton

Oh, “Never Can Say Goodbye”?

TODD L. BURNS

Yeah, can you just talk a little bit about that and the circumstances of why that was a big deal back then?

Tom Moulton

Well, see radio ruled the roost and it’s amazing how if you don’t have competition there’s a certain attitude you have. In other words, like when I had a problem with AT&T many years ago, I got a phone bill for $470 and I said, “All these calls were made within a six-minute period.” And I said, “I’m not paying that bill.” They said, “You obviously have a switchboard.” I said, “A switchboard in my apartment? I mean, there were like hundreds of calls made within a five-, six-minute period.” And I’ll never forget that line, “If you don’t like it, go to somebody else.” Who else was there but AT&T? There was nobody else. So you have that attitude when you have no competition and radio had that arrogance about them because, “Hey, if we don’t play it, it don’t happen.” Well, how can a record sell 10,000 copies a week in New York City and not one radio station was playing it?

TODD L. BURNS

How did it happen?

Tom Moulton

Because all the discos were playing it.

TODD L. BURNS

Let’s open it up to questions. Does anyone want to ask Mr. Moulton something?

Audience Member

Hi. Do you think the limitation of time, back when there were established studios not home studios, helped to create good records and nowadays having a home studio, where it’s constantly accessible, diminishes the value?

Tom Moulton

No, because again, it’s like there are people who are always going to be creative with what they have to work with. Example, God, I’m trying to get the first part of their name, Daft... Daft Punk, I mean that song drives me crazy. I love that song, that hook. I mean, that’s why they call them hooks. Now, that’s created out of samples but it’s a damn good record. So the point is they’re using the same thing everybody else can do but they did it one better. So I say no it doesn’t diminish it, as long as it has something that makes people want to go out, like, “I can’t wait until that CD comes out so I can buy it.” But I don’t think it diminishes. You’re not dealing with the same kind of elements that you did back then, because I’ve had people come over to the house, especially from the UK and I’m going to mix something and they say, “What are you working on?” I say, “I’m working on some 64-track thing.” They go, “64 tracks? How can you concentrate on all those tracks at the same time?” I say, “Well, you just do because that’s what I’m used to doing.” And they’re used to doing one-on-one-on-one and building something like that, where I’m dealing with this whole orchestra. Oh, the other one I like too is “Only You,” you know that “Only You” by...? Well, you will. You’ll know who it is, it’s another English record, but my God, that thing is awesome. No, but I mean it’s very clever how it’s done and it makes you feel it inside. So, it can be done.

TODD L. BURNS

Any other questions?

Audience Member

Mr. Moulton, nice to meet you. You seem to have a huge collection of tapes, and just being friends with Coxsone Dodd which is this legend, I couldn’t help but think about your favourite pieces of tape. Can you point out something you’re really fond of, some esteemed pieces you have in your files?

Tom Moulton

I knew I should have brought something. I’m going to quote somebody here by saying, “Oh, we have everything we need.”

TODD L. BURNS

Sorry about that.

Tom Moulton

Hey, I got to pass the buck on that one, because I did mention about bringing something. “No, no, Todd has everything.” I’m not trying to embarass you. So, how do we get out of this, Todd?

TODD L. BURNS

Well, why don’t you just name a couple of things?

[laughter]

Tom Moulton

Oh, OK. Do you have the Philadelphia Classics?

TODD L. BURNS

Yeah, I think so.

Tom Moulton

You could be a little more excited about it.

[laughter]

TODD L. BURNS

Yes, I have the four-CD thing.

Tom Moulton

Alright, play “The Devil Made Me Do It.” I have to explain this. “The Devil Made Me Do It” is by Robert Upchurch, who was the other lead singer of the Trammps. He did this song back in the early ’70s and I thought it was okay. So I got the multitrack to do for this box set and I realised the song was six minutes long. When I listened to it I was so fascinated, it slowed right down and it was almost like a waltz. I said, “You got to be kidding me.” Now, because of technology you can change the tempo without changing the key, and to make this where it’s consistent... I mean, it did take some time, but it’s possible now. So I was able to utilise what I call the magic of Philadelphia, when those guys lock in together nobody can touch them. There’s a soul and a feel to it and the last three minutes of that song drives me absolutely out of my mind. I mean, I just think it’s one of the greatest things. Maybe we can play it. But I really had to alter it to make it work.

(music: Robert Upchurch – “The Devil Made Me Do It”)

[comments over music] See now, this part of the song is alright to me. But this to me is setting up what’s coming next, which is the part that really gets me.

See, also, the vibe wasn’t on this take, it was on another take, but I liked it so much because of the contrast. “The Devil Made Me Do It” is playing all these angelical kind of swirls and saying, I guess there must be a devil up there. This is coming up where it slows right down.

See, it’s in that pocket where it’s not fast, it’s not slow, but it’s just got that groove. Now listen to how they start playing, you see how they kind of lock in.

See, it’s the way Norman Harris plays the guitar now.

Now, you all know I cheated on that because those vibes weren’t really there, I flew them in. But it has that feel, you don’t hear that all the time. A lot of times in Philadelphia, after three minutes, if they let the tape run then they would just jam. It would all be feel, and that’s what your selling, is the feel. That’s why you react to music because you feel something, you feel a connection to it.

Now at the end, Norman played two guitar chords that absolutely drive me crazy, I don’t know why. He only played it twice but I flew it in each time at the end, coming up. I don’t know why they drive me nuts. Not yet. Coming up.

Jesus! When you can’t explain why music does that to do - I mean, I could hear for a half-hour that thing, just playing that over and over - and I can’t tell you why, it’s just that it feels so good inside to me to hear that.

Audience Member

Did you take out the low end in the kick drum, or the drummer just doesn’t play it every time?

Tom Moulton

Yes, it’s called ‘Moulton removal’. I got rid of the low end.

[laughter]

Audience Member

It’s really catchy.

Tom Moulton

In other words, the company kept saying, “You’ve worked on that song for three weeks.” And I said, “I’ll work on it for six months until it’s done, I don’t give a damn, because I love this song so much.” And they go, “Yeah, but it’s not like a ‘Backstabbers’ or this or that.” I said, “I really don’t care, because doing the work on this one motivates me to do all the other ones.” I wasn’t going to let this song beat me. I mean, I had such a hard time with that tempo, getting the tempo up right, and then the tempo kept changing and I kind of had to smooth it over and it was really frustrating, I couldn’t work on it all. At the same time I had to stop and work on something else for a minute and then go back to this. But I had in my mind that I wanted this to be a certain way and that’s the way it was going to end up.

Audience Member

I have a really quick question. Where was the studio, or should I say studios, located in Philadelphia?

Tom Moulton

Well, Sigma was at 212 North 12th Street, right near the convention centre, and 309 is 309 South Broad Street, which used to be an early rock & roll studio called Cameo Parkway.

Audience Member

OK, cool. I’m from Philadelphia, that’s why I’m asking. I was born in the city, grew up in Bucks County.

Audience Member

You mentioned earlier, on your recording with Grace Jones, that you told her, “Just go back there, sing the song. The right words, the right lyrics, the right vocals.” At which point do you want to receive work from someone, in order for it to be not a beginning, like a sketch of a work, not overworked, but at a point where they can show the idea or the progress of something? But that piece of music shouldn’t be overworked so it becomes dead, especially since it’s work from someone not professionally trained to mix or produce things. You know, we just want to push forward the idea but not make it sound too false at the end, before it gets to the hands of someone who knows how to do it.

Tom Moulton

Well, see, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a gift, I don’t know what it is, but when somebody sends me... Like, they say, “We want you to mix this track.” Well, I have to hear it first. They say, “We should work out the business first.” I say, “Why should we work out the business if I’m not going to do it? I want to hear it first, then we can talk business.” So a lot of people feel that’s strange. I say, “If you think I’m just doing it for the money, you better go to somebody else, because that’s not it.” I find sometimes it’s difficult, they’ll say it’s not really finished. Let me hear the song and then we can talk about it. So many times I hear something and go, “Wow, that can really be something because it’s really good.” Mind you, it may not sound good, but I hear all the elements in it the way I think they should sound and then I realise how good it is as to the words or the melody or whatever. Or sometimes it’s just one of those catchy things, like what we were talking about earlier, what is it called, “Get It”? What’s the song called, Daft Punk “Get Lucky”? I mean, that’s why they call them hooks. That’s what makes the music business exciting when you hear something like that, that turns a lot of people on.

TODD L. BURNS

That brings up an interesting point, because I think you’ve always said that you’ve aimed for commerciality as opposed to being obscure, in a way. Pop songs, hooks, are something that you’re unashamedly going for.

Tom Moulton

But that’s why they call them hooks! Like, I was going around, and I’m sorry but “Call Me Maybe” to me was the best song of last year, because of those damn violins. Those violins were so... The minute I heard it I went, “What is that record? I’ve got to get it, I’ve got to have it!” That’s the side of the music business that I like because it motivates me, and if it motivates me it’s sure as hell going to motivate other people who are a lot younger than me. But it was those strings, I says, “My God, that’s incredible.” And what did they get, 300 million hits on YouTube, that song? I can see why.

Audience Member

I’m glad you played that song because I got to collect my thoughts. Is it okay to ask two questions?

Tom Moulton

You can ask three!

Participant

The first one, you said you recorded Huff, right? I found that interesting because I listen to a lot of jazz. I find that the first take is usually the best take and the second take and the third take is like... A lot of artists, if they don’t make it in the first three takes they’re like, “OK, I’m coming back tomorrow and I’ll do it again.”

Tom Moulton

Well, let me explain something to you first of all, you have to remember, for everybody who has been a producer or recorded an artist, the one lie, and it is a lie, is this, “I can do it better.” Always remember that, especially when you only have one track and you go, “Oh, OK!” And the greatest performance you just erased. And the thing is totally different than what is there and you want to kill yourself. So when anybody says, “OK, do we have another open track?”

Audience Member

I see that a lot, especially with recording myself , after the first take, if it’s not good...

Tom Moulton

Because you’re trying to refine it and the very thing that made it work isn’t there, that spontaneous thing.

Audience Member

You being natural.

Tom Moulton

Exactly.

Audience Member

So my first question was, do you think that song would have done what it had done, had he been like, let me come back...

Tom Moulton

Well, first of all remember he didn’t know we were recording him.

TODD L. BURNS

It’s important to trick people into thinking you’re not recording.

Tom Moulton

In other words, say, “Let’s do another one,” he’d look at the light, the record light. I didn’t tell you the rest of the story when he said, “I don’t think it’s going to work.” I said, “Yeah, you’re right, Huff.”

Audience Member

So that was basically my first question. My second one is kind of a comment and a question. I’ve been around the Midwest and the East Coast and the South, my dad’s from Mississippi, so I grew up listening to a lot of stuff that you worked on. My thing is, when you said something about listening to a Jay-Z song and the feeling and all that. I was going to say that as far as what I’ve seen, in terms of my generation and people I’ve been around, it’s like a lack of respect for love, which is why the music has changed and kind of declined, and also more respect for money. I wanted to see what you thought about that, in terms of the era you’ve come through in music.

Tom Moulton

Well, it’s funny, I can never put a dollar value on what I do because I’m not doing it for the money. I know that sounds crazy but...

Audience Member

It doesn’t.

Tom Moulton

There’s a feeling you get inside here that money just cannot buy, and some people get it and some people don’t. You know, that’s what keeps me alive and keeps me going. It really does, because I always have something great to work on and something that emotionally stimulates me. I just hope I’m doing it in a way where other people can also relate to it. People who aren’t in the buiness say, “Mixing, what is that?” I say, “Well, you have all these different tracks, say 24 tracks, and you’ve got a kick drum and a snare and this and that.” “Yeah, yeah, but what do you do?” “Well, I pan it here, put this on it and that.” “Uh-huh. Well, name me some songs.” I go, “‘More, More, More’, Andrea True, and ‘Instant Replay.’“ I’m trying to mention all the biggies. They say, “Yeah, yeah,” and I go, “And I did ‘Doctor Love.’“ “You did ‘Doctor Love’?” I don’t know why that triggers that, something about that song. It’s always that reaction. “I got married to that record!” I had a heart attack doing that record, I was so frustrated.

TODD L. BURNS

Why?

Tom Moulton

Because of the tempo. When Earl changes the hi-hat pattern he slows down, and of course we didn’t have that luxury so I had to do the varispeed. It was a nightmare. I said, “Jesus Christ!” And I felt this electricity go through my arms. I put my arms down and I took a step. Everything stopped, I started to fall and then it went back up.