Black Coffee

Lauren Martin

Great. Well, the man sitting next to me on the couch actually used to sit on this side of the lecture hall. He was a participant just like you guys, at the 2003 Academy in Cape Town. Since then he’s gone on to be kind of a big deal in South Africa. He’s probably one of the biggest DJs in South Africa, one of the biggest producers. It’s hard to express right now just how big he is and how important he is within his scene but we’re going to get right into that story. Please help me welcome, Black Coffee.

(applause)

Black Coffee

Thank you. Thank you.

Lauren Martin

Is it quite weird being on this side of the room?

Black Coffee

Much. I think it’s such a good story, not just for me but for what Red Bull is doing. I think even for them taking that leap, going to South Africa, that to me is a goal. It was a big thing, I guess, because everyone is going there now and they weren’t there 13 years ago and to be here 13 years later sitting on this side is quite an amazing story. Yep.

Lauren Martin

You almost seem surprised that they would go to Cape Town. Why would that be a big deal for you?

Black Coffee

Because the whole house music wave, the world has only woken up to it now. Not just house, just how musical South Africa the country is. Everyone's just woken up to it now and it just shows how ahead they are of everything they do in the culture. It is kind of special that they saw it quite early before everyone else.

Lauren Martin

Ahead of the curve kind of thing. You went to the Academy in Cape Town, but you really didn’t have to go that far to come to the Academy did you? Where exactly are you from in South Africa?

Black Coffee

I was born in Durban. It’s a five hour journey from Johannesburg. I grew up, we moved when I was eight, I call it a village. It’s better now, but then that’s what it looked like, in a place called the Eastern Cape. I was raised by my grandmother. I literally grew up milking cows. That’s why I call it a village, even though not everyone had cows, but my grandmother did. That was my childhood. I grew up a very hard working, responsible kid.

Lauren Martin

You described where you’re from as a village. Could you describe what the village was like because I know South Africa has a long history of this kind of urban planning and how it involves race and place. Could you describe where you’re from and what kind of role that had for you growing up?

Black Coffee

Durban is a township which was in South Africa. The Eastern Cape at the time was an independent state so it was not under the South African government, the government that is known for their apartheid regime. It was a free state. Everything was slow. I grew up in a house with electricity, like a normal house with clean water, indoor bathroom, and moved to the Eastern Cape where there was none. You make fire if you want to cook. You make fire if you want to take a bath. The toilet is outside and it’s a bucket system toilet. Like I said, there were cows. I literally had to, every morning and every afternoon, go and on holidays I used to be a shepherd boy literally. Look after cows. So for me it was quite a different lifestyle from what I was used to. Hence the village word. As much as it was a township, so to say because there were villages around, but my lifestyle, my home, that was the set up.

Lauren Martin

Why are there townships in South Africa? What was their purpose as it were?

Black Coffee

The apartheid government created townships for black people to move them out of the city, to push them as far away as possible from where they were living. They created a system that really worked for them. If you worked for a white person in South Africa, you wouldn’t live with them. You would live in a township and then you would travel and they made sure that the township was as far away as possible from where they were staying to avoid theft or any kind of uprising. They would have time to protect themselves if anything came up. Townships were a structure. They literally moved people out of places that were closer to where they lived and created all these townships, identical houses, created schools for the black people to go to and move them as far away as possible from Wallstreet.

It went far because this is the only thing black people knew. You were born in the township and everything around you is... there’s nothing that is inspiring. Everyone is on the same level. Everyone is working for a master. It’s either your grandfather or father works in a mine and your mother is a domestic worker and no one aspires to be anything else. Everything in the township was meant for the township. They create certain brands for black people that were cheaper. Clothing lines that were cheaper. Food that was not so healthy but cheaper. It’s a system they created for the black people.

Lauren Martin

They even had a brand of beer that’s particular to townships and I was reading about your life, there’s something that really struck me. It’s so beyond my understanding of the world. They had a slogan on the side of the beer can. Can you tell us what that was and how it made you feel to see and read that?

Black Coffee

They had different brands actually and [different] packages. On the side it was written, “Do not drink and walk.” Basically it was meant for people with a low income, people who didn’t drive and today it’s do not drink and drive. This was even, the name was an African name. Even though it was not made by a black person. It was a very toxic beer. In cartons, you finish that carton it finishes you. Very toxic traditional, knowing that it’s a traditional beer, but in reality it was never traditional because it is not really our tradition to drink that. It was created in that manner that, "this is your beer. You work here, you live here, you drink this." That’s the circle you grow up in, that environment where even the people that you kind of look up to are drinking this and they are wearing these kinds of clothes.

It becomes a system that captures you. You see nothing beyond and all you want to do, all you want to emulate is what you see in front of you. You grow up in this environment and you become comfortable in it. Our biggest struggle today is getting out of that system. It is the most imprisoning system to be in because it’s not just about walking out of it. People get comfortable to a point where they love it and even when they do make it in life, they will spend most of their days living in the township, going to hang out, the same way people before them did. Eventually they end up back in the township because it’s such a toxic place.

Lauren Martin

Is this the benefit of hindsight from having traveled to other places or are you quite aware of this when you were younger?

Black Coffee

I was quite aware of it. It’s quite weird. From an early age I remember I mentioned earlier how I used to look after the cows when I wasn’t in school, and holidays. I used to sit there the whole day and imagine this life traveling overseas, probably here. Not even knowing how to pronounce this place and I had all these visions and dreams of wanting a better life. I wanted to do something greater with my life.

You know. Wanting to do something greater with my life, wanting to get out of that system, wanting to be the best. It’s such a rural area: that place where if it’s clear, you see stars. If I saw a shooting star, I would speak and say, “I want to be the best in whatever I choose to be.” Literally, I would say that as a kid. It’s a place I wanted to get out of at a very early age. It has always been my dream: one day I need to leave this place and I need to get my family out of it.

Lauren Martin

Apartheid in South Africa officially ended in 1994? It was between ’91 and ’94 was the period of transition. It legally ended in ’91 and then nonwhite people were allowed to vote in elections in 1994, correct?

Black Coffee

Yep.

Lauren Martin

In this system, how did you become a young man, being aware of this system? What feelings did you have growing up in something where you felt so unwelcome?

Black Coffee

Growing up in the Eastern Cape, which was an independent state as I mentioned, helped a lot. There, there was no segregation. There was no black, no white. We didn’t have superior white people telling us what to do. It was literally run by a black prime minister. All the business people were black. Everything was different, but Durban being my home, every holiday I would go to Durban. Half the time, when I get there on holidays, all my cousins and my friends were not home, because there was this state of emergency where police were just taking all the teenagers. They would come at random hours: maybe twelve, one o’clock at night they would just start knocking at doors and find you sleeping. They were arresting all the black kids, basically. The boys, mostly.

That’s when I was aware. It never affected me direct, because I was there on holiday, but that was the system we were living in. I never really experienced any kind of direct apartheid myself until I was older. Until ... You’re saying it stopped in ’94, but maybe 2000? That’s when I experienced it. Before, because of where I grew up, I grew up in a different place where I was colorblind. Every time I would go to Durban, there was that fear. There was the fear of police, there was the fear of a white person. Even today, if you were to sit an older gentleman, a black gentleman, and a white person at a table for dinner, you’d be shocked at the interaction they would have. It’s still there. The older men are so afraid of the white people. They see them as their bosses and vice versa. The other one is more superior. They talk to them in a certain way. Only our generation and the ones after see things differently.

The depth of it is that it has affected a lot of us, because we... Telling my grandmother I want to be a DJ one day and traveling the world, is like a joke. That’s not possible. She is not a driven person, based on her past. No one is really that ambitious, because all they know is, “Listen, you need to be respectful. You need to listen to your master.” Basically. That’s if you want to become the best in what you do, those are the two things you need to master, basically. No one tells you, “Go out there and seek something else and chase a different dream.”

It has affected the way we interact with the world, interact with our women, interact with our kids, because there was no warmth from our fathers and our grandfathers. We don’t know the sense of family. We don’t know it. It’s something... My father passed two or three years ago. I’ve never received a hug from him, because he doesn’t know how to. He never received a hug from his father.

We are in a point where we’re trying to approach the world in a different way and teach these things to the guys and talk about these things, because it has affected the way the whole country thinks.

Lauren Martin

There was an event that actually shaped you as a young man, in a way, and it happened on a very important day in South African history, which is the 11th of February 1990. Can you tell us what happened in that day?

Black Coffee

My grandmother was quite strict. On the 10th of February... No, it happened on the 11th. On the 10th of February, which was the eve, when Nelson Mandela was coming out of jail, obviously the whole country was excited. There was tribulation everywhere and there was celebration everywhere. So, on the 10th, the night before, I think it was about nine or ten at night, a group of people were singing past my house. Me and my cousins ran out to join, but we knew how strict our grandmother was so we wouldn’t really go far. For some reason, they were calling me to go back home and I was like, “No, I’m not going back home.” I stayed up. I was 14.

Basically, we sang, ran around the streets the whole entire night until the morning. Which was, on the 11th, around three, four o’clock in the morning. We were, as a group, singing on the main road, now, on our way to a big stadium. I think that’s where the whole camping thing... The idea was to celebrate and then go to a stadium and camp until the morning. Camping meaning staying up and singing.

We were almost there and I just heard these noises and screaming and quite strange noises. A car literally drove into the crowd and just... Blink. A few seconds later I woke up. I was on the floor and there was chaos. Everyone screaming, crying. Realized, okay, we had an accident.

About 36 people were injured and one person passed away. I think that’s the first person that was hit by the car, I assume. The curse now was the people taking out the driver. They beat the guy up. They burned his taxi and they burned him on the spot.

I sustained an injury. I don’t think, when I look at it today... I don’t think I was hit by the car myself, I just think it was a chain reaction. I think I was pushed. What happened, I sustained an injury called brachial plexus, which is the damage of the nerves on my shoulder.

At the time, I thought it’s just a fracture in my arm. The first thing I thought of is, “My grandmother’s gonna kill me. I’m not supposed to be here.” Someone was like, “Come, let’s take you home.”

On our way home, I’m thinking, “No, we can’t go home. She’s really gonna kill me.” We went back, because then there were cars taking people to the hospital. They put me in one of the cars and I was taken to the hospital. Spent the whole night there. I remember waking up and seeing two of my friends that I was literally walking with and they were there. The other one was sleeping. It freaked me out because I thought he was dead. Honestly, I thought he was dead. The other one was in pain. That’s when it really hit me that this actually was a serious accident, and then my grandmother came, and I was terrified, but she was really concerned, you know? Stayed up, and then the following morning I was sent home, which is now the morning of Mandela being out and everywhere on radio and television that’s all you see, him walking out of jail. Really great, great moment for the country, which, I had mixed feelings because I was in pain, so that’s what happened on that day for me. It just became a significant day in a different way.

Lauren Martin

Had you been writing and performing music by that age, and that kind of moment in your life, did it kind of bolster you to want to keep trying?

Black Coffee

I say this all the time, I think I was young to take it to heart. I was too young for it to affect me deeply. I think if it’s something that happened now, I would have been so conscious of so many things. I was too young and too ambitious at the time. I had started DJing, fooling around really. My cousin had a sound system. They used to do these 21st birthday parties and beauty pageants, so I was part of his crew, literally going to the gigs and I didn’t stop. I would think about it, though. I’d wonder what’s going to happen as I grow, because I can really – I just thought, “How is it going to work? How am I going to DJ with one hand?” Growing up, you know, but I was so driven, I thought, “We’ll figure it out, we’ll make it work.” What I did is, I really spent time practicing. I really just thought, I need to be able to master this thing more than anyone else, so that one day, if someone says to me, “Come, there’s a gig,” I must be ready.

Lauren Martin

What kind of music were you playing at that time? The sounds of the townships and the villages were perhaps very different to the cities, so this is like, the late ’90s now, you’re a teenager, and there’s sounds coming out of the townships that are very particular to that moment, that vibe. I would like to play the first video, please, of a music video for group, and this is from 1998, and hopefully afterwards you can tell us about the sound and the group, because this was the sound of the townships early on. If we could have the first video, please.

(music: TKZee – “Dlala Mapantsula” / applause)

You’re going to have to help me with the pronunciation of that song title a little bit. Who was that?

Black Coffee

The group was called TKZee, the song is called “Dlala Mapantsula” meaning “dance Mapantsula.” Pantsula is a kind of a dance, so the people that do the dance are called Mapantsula. Those guys were... They were kind of like the new South Africa. They were from private schools. They changed everything. They changed the music scene. They were very well-spoken, they spoke good English, they were born in the townships, but didn’t really grow up in the townships because their parents could afford to take them to good schools, you know? They took the culture and modernized it. They became the biggest thing in the country at that time. That’s the music that I was playing, but it was that and more. There were so many international songs around the same tempo that were coming out at the time.

We didn’t really have a name for it. Back in the day, when I started DJing, you would be that DJ who could play alone the whole night, where it’s that kind of music, which was our dance music, and straight too, like R&B, and hip-hop if you have it, but you basically play everything that people want to listen to. You didn’t specialize in... Like today, I’m a house DJ. Full stop. Doesn’t matter where I play, and a hot girl comes and says, “Please play Britney Spears,” I’m like, “I’m a house DJ.” You know? Then, you would play everything, like from that I think one of the funniest songs I remember that was so big in my country, so people would be dancing to that, next thing you hear, [singing]. Then you’d hear Barry White saying, “Baby ... “ I used to find that so weird, and people would go nuts because that’s exactly what the radio was playing. So you would go from a dance song to Barry White, in a club.

Lauren Martin

It sounds like a good club.

Black Coffee

Yeah, if they played that, then you know you're at the right place.

Lauren Martin

It’s interesting that you mentioned the tempo, because that, in terms of aesthetic and the mood, is very much like a hip-hop track, but it sounds extremely like house music, but a lot slower. Can you explain what is going on in that beat?

Black Coffee

That was our sound. That was our version of hip-hop music. Kwaito, that’s what kwaito is, like our movement. It became our genre, that was created by South Africans and understood by South Africans, and most of the songs were... that’s a party song, but some spoke about what was happening at the time. It became our new kind of hip-hop, what Americans did with hip-hop music. Kwaito was our own, and that’s the tempo they chose. It was never on a hip-hop beat, it was more on a dance [beat], but much slower, to a point where we used to take records that were 45 BPM and slow them down, and play them on... Sorry, 45 RPM, and play them on 33 RPM, just to get that slowness and that groove, and it became the biggest thing. They used to make house music compilation called The Mid Tempos, and that’s what we knew. We just knew house music as that very slow-sounding. The minute it was fast, we didn’t connect to it, you know? For the longest time, our dance music was on that tempo, like 105. If it was fast, then it’s 114, and that’s it.

Lauren Martin

114 was too fast? Was too much?

Black Coffee

Yup. I remember the first house music compilation that came out that became our classic, like our Bible, it was a compilation called Fresh House Flava Volume 1. It was so fast, I remember hearing it and I thought, “No,” for the longest time. But you’d play it over and over and I think if you listened to it today, it was maybe like, 120, 121, but it just sounded so weird, and everyone was like, “No, this is music for white people.” For the longest time, and eventually, it just changed and became “Wow, this is actually good.” The songs on that album, if you want to play a classic house song in South Africa, that’s the album to play.

One of the songs is by a DJ from here, actually, Nick Holder, called “Summer Daze.” It’s in that album, and for us, that’s our... If you want to play classic house music, that’s where you go. We don’t know anything beyond that, basically.

Lauren Martin

It’s so interesting that I’d imagine imported compilations that were sold in South Africa, that was your idea of house music outside of South Africa, and you had your own version of it through kwaito and what would evolve out of the hip-hop scene. This is really interesting, because South Africa’s so huge for house music, but it doesn’t come straight from the lineage of Chicago house or Detroit techno or anything, it’s very much its own story, which is fascinating.

Black Coffee

I think my approach, after attending the Red Bull Music Academy, changed, because I was a DJ, and we had our own collective, like a band, called SHANA where I remember when I submitted my questionnaire to the Red Bull Music Academy, I’d sent them songs from the group. But being in a group, on the side I’m a DJ, so I want to have an album, and obviously, the obvious route is to make a compilation, but after attending the Academy, I thought, “You know what? I actually want to make my own music.” I just thought there was a space for original house music from South Africa and I just wanted to break the chain and be able to reverse the cycle, and be able to export the music instead of importing. Because a lot of money was going outside the country, and it was an in thing. Everyone wanted to have a compilation album. They used to really fight over the hot singles, who’s going to hear the song, who’s going to license the song first, and whoever has the hottest songs become the hottest DJ.

I kind of reversed the cycle in creating my own music on my album, which came out in 2005. Out of that album, I started licensing my music overseas, which was something that no one was doing, and understanding the culture internationally, producers... I don’t know now, but at the time, they would work on a song, and maybe in a year they would release one or two singles only, and then they stay in the circle. Depending how successful their single is, they will start doing shows, and here I was from South Africa with an album, and then I would strip my album and license songs to different labels, so I would license the first song to one label for like, two or three months, and wait, and then give it to another one, and then wait, and then I remembered at one point, I think I had all of my songs were the top six on Trax Source, and all of them became number one depending on when I was releasing them.

It was kind of freaking everyone out, like, “We do one song a year, and there’s this new guy who has six new singles, six of them on the top 10.” My approach was different, and I knew that I’m not from that world. I don’t have the knowledge and the database the international labels have, so instead of me coming up and competing, it’s better to partner with them, so I licensed all my music to all these different labels, and in turn, they would introduce me to the world as one of their own. Really hype, and every single I release I am part of them. Then, I started getting requests for gigs, depending where the label was from, I did anything from labels in London, Germany, America, and in between, in Paris. That’s how I built my brand, basically. Out of licensing the same South African music that wasn’t being licensed before.

Lauren Martin

I’d love to talk about your music a little bit more, and I’d like to warm up with the second video, please. This is a live concert, and it’s a person that you worked very closely with, and I’d like people to get a sense of the importance of the music and the people, that being able to see at the time. If we could have the second video, please.

(video: Hugh Masekela – “Stimela (Coal Train)” (live) / applause)

Lauren Martin

Great. You’re growing up. You were becoming a teenager. You’re DJing. You’re playing kwaito music, hip-hop, imported house. Why go to a jazz record from the mid ’70s for some of your first ideas of music?

Black Coffee

I was sitting in my room and purchasing music. I think that was 2004. This is after I’ve been to the Red Bull Music Academy, and had met Hugh Masekela at the Music Academy for the first time. I was working. I used to have this, iMac computer with a... I had this broken headphone. I had to literally hold one here, like this, when I was making music. I was working on something else, and I saw this same particular video on TV, on late night television. I stopped whatever I was doing, and started a new project while the song was playing on TV. I was trying to figure out the key of the song. While it was playing on TV, I got the key of the song. By the time it ended, I was done with it. I started working on that song in particular as a remix.

I didn’t know how I was going to find Hugh Masekela to even start a conversation about remixing the song. I didn’t even know if he was going to allow that to happen. It kept at me so much. That song, by the way, is breaking down the same story we’re just talking about. It talks about the train that picks up the mine workers. The last line he said that, before it was stopped, is in Xhosa. It says [foreign language], meaning we ... [foreign language] is a word they used for the kind of food, terrible food, they were eating in the mines. He says that in the song, but the whole story is they’re going to the mines with people from all these countries to go work for their kids. That’s the old South Africa. That’s how the system was, your job as a man, if you're a hardworking man, that’s where you end up. You get on the train. You go to the mines. You leave your family behind. You see them once a year. You send money in between.

That song is about that story we’re just talking about. It touched me then like the same way it just did now when it played. It’s quite an emotional song. I did the remix before even speaking to him. The following weekend I was playing the song as an instrumental, and then telling everyone who listened that this is going to be a remix for Hugh Masekela. It didn’t make sense because it was just an instrumental.

I took it to this guy who ended up being like he’s my bigger brother. Now he’s my mentor. His name is Oskido. Oskido is one of the guys who got into the industry quite early. His story is, he used to sell... In a way that everyone can understand: he used to sell hot dogs outside a club, a nightclub. When people come out of the club, they’re hungry. They will buy hot dogs from him. When he was done, he would go into the club. One day the DJ didn’t pitch. The guy from the club was like, “The DJ didn’t pitch. Can you play? Do you know how to play music?” He was like, “Yeah.”

That’s how he started being a DJ, literally. From there he built an empire. Started their own first record label. Started on their first artist. They used to sell music from the car because no record company wanted to sign that music. Kwaito was like hip-hop. It was not violent, but they didn’t believe in it so much. They started selling it from their cars. He literally was in the beginning of South African music industries. He knew everyone. I’d taken my album to him so that it could be licensed to his label. I told him that I have this song that I wish to feature by Hugh. He spoke to him. It was approved. That’s how it got on the album.

Lauren Martin

I think we should listen to your remix. I think we should do that. It’s interesting to think of how you turn a jazz record from the ’70s into your own music along these South African house flavors, so this is what we’re going to do.

Black Coffee

I’m nervous.

Lauren Martin

Are you nervous? Oh, don’t be nervous.

Black Coffee

Yeah. I’m going to make a disclaimer. I produced this using, like I said, I had this small iMac computer. I produced the whole album using a mouse, literally. I’d write down the chords. I’d sing the bass line with my mouth, and then literally write them down with a mouse. I had no keyboard to play when I made this album. If it doesn’t sound so great, just remember that. (laughs)

Lauren Martin

Okay. Well, this is “Stimela.” Also, ”Stimela” means train, quite literally, right? The emotional importance of this just being called “Stimela” is so heavy, is real.

Okay, here we go.

(music: Hugh Masekela – “Stimela (Black Coffee Remix)” / applause)

Black Coffee

Thank you. I think the speakers are quite good.

Lauren Martin

They’re actually even louder out there. I was just making sure we don’t blow everyone’s ears off with the train sound.

What I find so interesting about your music is that you draw from live instrumentation. You’re inspired by Hugh Masekela, playing live jazz. You studied jazz as well, and you’re making house music with very few instruments, or even just equipment for a while. How exactly did you make that? Was that sampled directly from the original? How were you working it out?

Black Coffee

That’s a very old song, so it’s all the video. I was very young when he did that. I literally had to use that recording.

Lauren Martin

The live recording.

Black Coffee

Yeah, I had to use that recording. I EQ’d it so much. I didn’t get the separates to do the remix, separate vocals. I had to EQ what was there. I tried capturing the emotion of the train on the drums as well. To me, that’s how a train sounds. If you listen to the rhythm of that remix, it suggests the train movement.

Basically, I wanted to make sure that he doesn’t say no when he hears the song. Because before, there was no official Hugh Masekela remix. Sade doesn’t let anyone remix. But if I were to get an opportunity, I’d do 10 different versions of one song, so that she doesn’t get a chance to say no.

It was one of those things where I was like, “I have to get this thing right. I have to capture him.” He has no knowledge, or had no knowledge of what house music is. I wanted him to just hear music, and approve it, and it worked.

Lauren Martin

It did actually work, didn’t it? Because you ended up working together.

Black Coffee

We worked together, on a different song. It was on my album called Home Brewed. One of my dreams was to do a song with him, an original song. I had been speaking to his manager for the longest time, and he said, “Okay, cool. Confirmed. He’s going to come to your house.” I think it was a Tuesday. He said this on Monday morning. I freaked out, because I had nothing. He said to me, “He only has an hour and a half. They’re giving him a doctorate, some university in honoring him, so he doesn’t have time.”

Usually how I work is, I’m quite fast, but an hour and a half is a bit too short. I thought we would hang out, and I’ll play something. Then he’ll say, “No, yes, no.” Now, this guy says to me he has an hour and a half. I said to him, “He’s interested in writing a song perhaps?” He said, “No. He wants to come in, sing, and go.” So I had a day to start this song, and I had no one to call to write the song. I believe I am a song writer, but not for him.

I was stuck. I decided, “Okay, it’s fine. Let me just lock myself up, and do something,” so I did. I literally stayed up the whole night. I called this guy who usually plays piano on my songs, Johan, to come. I played him the instrumental, I said to him, “Please play a solo. Let’s just do this song, and finish it before he gets here.” That’s what we did. When he got there, all he had to do was to just play a solo, and sing the verse. I played him the song, and he was like, “What music is this?” I said, “This is house music,” and he laughed at me. He says, “It’s house, like a home.” I said, “Yeah”.

Jokingly, he said, “So if there’s house, is there garage?” (laughs) I was like, “Actually...”

Lauren Martin

“Well ...”

Black Coffee

So we did the song. George had said to me, “Listen, Hugh is not interested in the technical side, the ownership. He wants a fee,” and obviously to him this is just a guy who had remixed his songs, who, I’m just doing a quick thing. “He wants his fee, he’s going to sing what you tell him to sing, play a solo, and go.” I said, “Cool.” Then, that’s exactly what happened. He came in, I told him what I had written. Sang it to him. He sang it. Even the chorus, I’d sort of sung it myself as a guide, which, I’m not a good singer. I just wanted it to be ready.

He recorded, he left, and it was just me and him in the studio. He left, and within five minutes, I got a call from George. George said, “Thank you man. Thank you for keeping the time. Hugh was quite happy. So, let’s talk about publishing.” I said, “But you said he’s not interested”. He says, “Yeah, he’s changed his mind.” That’s how I knew I had a good song. I was like, “Okay, cool. This house thing is, a good house, a good home.”

Lauren Martin

He wanted a piece of the house.

Let’s see what we’ve got here. What can we do? Let’s listen to that song, actually. Let me see where it is.

Black Coffee

Obviously, because it’s him, I couldn’t write a song about being in the club, turning up with some hot girls. Because it’s him, I wanted something quite meaningful, and a message he could pass. So I wrote a song called “We.” I wish actually we’d preloaded a music video. That song became so significant in a way, because it carries such a big message. There were times where there were big fights in my country, xenophobia fights, and it has been used a lot as a message to say, “We are one,” and stop the dividing, stop the fighting. It has become such a significant song.

(music: Black Coffee feat. Hugh Masekela – “We Are One” / applause)

Thank you.

Lauren Martin

I love this work that you’ve done with Hugh Masekela through his own music, a remix, then collaborating together because it draws this lovely line of how you as a house music producer are also deeply invested in things like live performance, collaborating with vocalists and musicians, and this is something has really evolved with South African house very deeply. Can you speak about that collaborative effort and how you work with live musicians who, like Hugh Masekela, have no idea what house music is? How would you translate that kind of spirit?

Black Coffee

I think it’s one of my strongest things. I’ve learned that from an early age. I think secretly, I’m this great singer, in my dreams, like I sing very well. If it was for me, I would sing in all my songs. I find it very important to do songs with singers. I love collaborating with singers, so I’m always on the lookout for someone with a new [voice], known or unknown, I’m always looking for more. I work more with texture than names and in all the music that I try to create, I’m always collaborating with different people. It’s something that, I think, I’ve grown to understand more.

Working with Hugh Masekela was such an important thing and doing a song called “We Are One” with him where for the first time I sang on a record that I produced. In the end, my son at the time, he was, I think 11, sang as well, the same chorus. His little voice sang, “We are one.” This song was licensed by Louie Vega and when Louie Vega did the remix, because I explained to him the story, I said, “There’s three generations on this song. There’s Hugh Masekela, there’s myself, there’s my son.”

When Louie Vega did the remix, on the remix, he put his son on and he put his wife on and his whole entire band on the remix as well. It just became this much bigger story. It was a three generation story from South Africa to another three generation story in New York and he had Josh Milan singing the chorus, Anané Vega sing the chorus, and Luisito Quintero playing the drums. It just became something much more bigger. That’s for me a dream. I love doing such... I believe, on the house music side, but I believe whilst I’m there I can bring so much more. I try and strike the balance between making sure the songs remain house music but also become musical at the same time. Yeah.

Lauren Martin

Actually, that might be a really good point to play our third video, please, because this is the ultimate expression of that and this is from 2012 and this is something that –

Black Coffee

Which one is that?

Lauren Martin

Oh, we’re going to find out. If we could have the last video please and we can get...

(video: Black Coffee feat Zano – “Someday” Live at Africa Rising / applause)

There’s a lot within that that’s fascinating. Can you tell us where that concert was, what it was for, and what role you played in it?

Black Coffee

The concert was in Durban, my hometown. It was in 2012. We call it Africa Rising. Africa Rising is a project that I started with a good friend of mine, Glen. Glen is in film and TV production. We just sat down one day and we were talking about how we can stage house music better and I said to him, “I’ve always had this dream of playing with an orchestra.” He’s the first person to say to me, “We can do it.” We started literally just planning it and started working on the music.

It’s a two hour show. The whole show that kind of an energy, literally. I’m bringing almost all the singers that I’ve worked with. They come on and perform the songs that we’ve collaborated on. That song is called “Someday.” For me, from calling the show Africa Rising, I believe music in my country can play a very big role in motivating the people and steering them into the right direction. That is why we did that song with Zano called “Someday.” It’s a very motivational song. I’m trying as much as I can to quietly inspire. You know, while you dance, there must be substance in the music. Not that I’m forever going to be this preacher guy that says everything is possible, but every now and then, my country still needs those messages, that encouraging kind of message. On every album I do, I make sure I touch on that because I believe it’s quite an important role to play in my country.

Lauren Martin

How does a kid that doesn’t have a keyboard and a broken headphone and all that kind of thing, how does he end up working with an orchestra? As a house music producer, did you walk into an orchestra and they were like, “What’s this?”

Black Coffee

I’m crazy. No, like literally, the guys that work with me know. We hardly speak on the phone. There’s a guy, his name is Amaru, he runs my office in South Africa. We hardly make voice calls, we’re on WhatsApp. Anything he needs, anything I need, we always chat. But when he receives my call, he knows, “Oh shit. What now?” Especially after long trips. Then there’s another one called Lionel who’s in New York, who’s also part of the team. After long trips, when they receive a call from me, they sit down because I always have these ideas.

Like I was working on an album recently and so busy, almost done and they were talking about sleeve designs and I called, “Okay, are you ready to talk?” He’s like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “I want to do a movie.” “Okay, okay. I’m listening.” That’s me. I’m always looking for ways to grow. You know?

I broke it down to them. I said, “You know, my latest album, Pieces of Me, when I listen to it, some of the songs sound like they could be in a movie. So what I want to do is I want to do a 12-minute movie where I put my own songs on the movie.” In a way, it’s showcasing the music. You know? He’s like, “Who’s going to write the movie?” I said, “I have it written. On the flight, I wrote the whole story. It’s ready.” “Who’s going to act in the movie?” I said, “It’s going to be an animation movie. So your job is to find an animator and send them my story and that’s it. I’m almost done with the music.” The movie’s done. There’s a Red Bull Music film festival coming in Johannesburg, end of October. We’re going to show that movie.”

I’m like that. I’m never comfortable. I’m always looking for ways to close the gap, find a different approach to things. I want to take house music to a level that it has never been before with different approach. I’ve been saying this, I want to be that guy who makes a song with Beyoncé but it remains house music. Without changing who I am and what I’ve been doing, that’s my ultimate goal.

Back in the day in 2003, I did an interview while I was a participant in Cape Town. In the interview, so this lady was like, “So, where do you see yourself in three years?” I said to her, “Three years is too close, let’s say five years. In five years, I’m going to be one of the most important producers of this country.” Then I choked after saying that and I thought, “Why would you say that?” But that was the truth. It came out because I’m that guy who I’m never comfortable with stuff that I’m doing. I always want to get better. I’m always willing to learn.

Funny enough, before I took this trip, I found the notebook that they gave us in Cape Town, the Red Bull Music Academy notebook and what I wrote on the cover is that “I am here to learn.” That’s the first thing I wrote before I started attending all the classes.

That’s me. I never walk in the room knowing. I’m always walking in the room to learn. So, I’m forever learning and I’m forever pushing the envelope. That’s where the orchestra idea comes from. We’ve done more, crazier things. We’ve done a show where we pre-recorded the orchestra and then we did a show where the orchestra was only on the screens and I was playing. The conductor was conducting the screens. This is a house music show. We’re not just about a club. We about how do we repackage this thing and make it look amazing at the same time, keeping the culture.

Lauren Martin

I think that always learning and keeping the culture seems to encapsulate what you do as an artist. I think I’d like to thank you at this point before we go to questions, so thank you very much, Black Coffee, for speaking to us.

(applause)

Do any participants have a question for their fellow former participant? Cool. Hi.

Audience Member

Hi. Good afternoon.

Black Coffee

What’s up, man?

Audience Member

I actually have a question about another musician. I think his name is Petite Noir? I wanted to know if he was from Cape Town and what you thought about his music.

Black Coffee

I’ve seen the name. I’m not really familiar with his music, but I’ve seen he’s been doing a lot of international shows, but I’m not really familiar with his music.

Audience Member

Okay. Thanks.

Lauren Martin

Anyone else? Up back there?

Audience Member

Hello. How are you?

Black Coffee

Good man, how’s it?

Audience Member

What do you think it is about house music that struck such a chord with South African culture and people? I find it really interesting how sometimes music from very far away has a weird kind of spiritual connection with people? I don’t know. I’m not going that direction, but that’s the question. What do you think was it about house music?

Black Coffee

I’ve actually tried breaking that down and it really confuses me. There is so much connection, especially with soulful house music, and my country. I think South Africa is that place where before it was strong, soulful house music was quite strong on the radio and on television. We just grew up with that culture. You know, whether that song was slow or fast, we liked songs. When the soulful house music came with the vocals and house music that is so outraged and very musical, we connected so much to it. We, as producers, right now are also inspired by that culture. Not so much minimal techno and anything else in between. There is a little bit of that but what’s more is your house music. House music is part of our life in South Africa. It’s on the radio, it’s on television, like literally every day. It’s not a night thing, it’s not a weekend thing, it’s everywhere.

I was reading last week, we have this four year old DJ. He won a competition last year, a TV competition. He was three.

Lauren Martin

Was that X Factor?

Black Coffee

It’s a show similar to that. He won at three. He couldn’t even speak.

Lauren Martin

Damn, I wish I had that video.

Black Coffee

Now he’s four. He’s driven by a MINI Cooper. I see him on billboards advertising cereal for kids. I was reading an interview. His father says he’s going to break a record now. He wants him to play for an hour. He’s a kid, so he loses concentration. Like on the 20th minute he’s like, “Okay, I’m done.” So he wants him to break a record and become the youngest DJ to play a set. I was reading he was telling him, “You know, you’re going to need to play for an hour now.” And he freaked out. He’s like, “An hour. That is so so long.” But that’s how much house music stays in that country. Like it is not a club thing or a DJ thing, it is part of our life at this point. We’ve connected with music to that level.

Black Coffee

Anyone else? Hi.

Audience Member

Hi.

Black Coffee

Hi.

Audience Member

Now that you have international recognition of sorts, do you think you have a big enough voice to bring change to the system in which you mentioned? Like all the horrors happening when you were younger? Do you think you have that voice to bring change? What have you done over the years?

Black Coffee

I definitely do. But for me, it’s not [as much about] a voice as an approach. About two months ago, I won an award in LA, a BET award. I was the first to win that award in my country. The president mentioned me on TV. Big deal. I got to the country and they hosted like a dinner for me, like a gala dinner you know, with the Minister of Arts and Culture. Something I’ve always wanted because I’ve always wanted to talk to that office. Believe, I have so many ideas of how to change a lot of things.

One of the things that I’ve been working on is an app which was approved actually last week by the Apple store. I’ve created an app called GongBox. This app is a music platform for African music. We as a country don’t have a platform for our music at all. This app will host everything that’s ever been released in that country. Like in watching this interview now, you don’t have to go search on Youtube and different places. You’d go to one place and find all the kind of music that you want. For me, it goes further than that because it’s a source of like, it creates so many jobs. It creates a structure for the industry as a whole. So many kids who’ve been inspired by what we do and they go to school and study engineering, then they have engineering certificates but then there’s no work. With the app in place, we now have created a job for guys who can now... Before the music gets on the app, they can have a job to make sure the songs are mixed well. The songs are mastered well.

There’s so many things that we can do to change and create jobs. Like to change the whole way of how our entertainment business is going. Some kids are in high school. They make amazing music, but you don’t want them to leave school, so we’ve created a section in the app where it’s unsigned artists. So if you think you’re great and you are in school, cool, put your song on. Your song will tell you how great you are. Put your song on and go back to school.

There’s so many ways. There’s so many ideas that I shared with him, including opening up a music school because I feel like... I wanted to study music, but I had to go study jazz which I wasn’t really interested in. All I wanted to do was learn to produce music. So now I’m working on opening a college, where say you are singer and you walk into this college as a singer, you can train in how to be a singer. When you do a final recital, your final performance, that’s actually your first single you are performing. When you’re performing that, we’re live streaming because it’s available on the app as a release with a music video coming out. Basically create a career, not just a profession, not just a certificate.

So, there’s so many different ideas that I have sort of like structured to change the music industry. That’s the way. I wouldn’t say I want to go to Parliament and sit down with the President and tell him how to do things, you know? For me, it’s more an approach than being a voice.

Audience Member

Thank you.

(applause)

Lauren Martin

Are there any other questions? Okay, well great.

Black Coffee

For me, I want you guys to understand how important being in this room is. It literally changed my life. That’s why I was on my phone constantly because I’m literally writing down an Instagram post about being here.

Lauren Martin

Getting it all out in the moment.

Black Coffee

Yeah, I was trying to write it in between while I was still feeling it, you know? For me, it just changed everything. Being from South Africa, we were always divided and the Academy for me changed a lot of things. It changed the way I wanted my music to be heard. The approach... Because I made friends at the Academy and I thought, “So, if I send my friend in New Zealand a song in Xhosa, would they understand it?” It changed that because I knew that okay, I need to change the approach, the choice of sounds, the language. It went as far as, I wanted to showcase my country other than just being a producer. It changed literally everything. I want you guys to understand how important it is. You must grab this moment and run with it.

(applause)

Lauren Martin

Thank you, Black Coffee.

Black Coffee

Thank you.