Dev Hynes
Liberation of soul and mind is essential to the work of Devonté Hynes. Born in Houston, Texas, and raised in East London, Hynes has called New York City home for close to a decade. A musical shape-shifter, his sound has evolved from dance-punk to eccentric folk to the ’80s-informed, socially-minded R&B he crafts today as Blood Orange. His 2016 album, Freetown Sound, his third under the Blood Orange moniker, touches on themes including musical identity, sexuality, politics and what it means to be a black man living in America today. A proficient songwriter and collaborator, he has worked with artists ranging from Solange Knowles and Nelly Furtado to Connan Mockasin, David Byrne, Grace Jones and Kindness. In his lecture at the 2016 Red Bull Music Academy, Hynes talks about his fascination with found sound, working with female voices and what it means to be a black classical fan.
Hosted by Lauren Martin You’ve got a piano and a cello here today, and that is mostly because the man sitting next to me on the couch is well-versed in both, as well as many other instruments, and we’re going to get right into the story of them in many other cities so please help me welcome Mr. Dev Hynes. (applause) That was very warm, and you’ve not even said anything yet. Lovely. I wanted to start with the idea of place today. A writer for The New Yorker many years ago, called E. B. White, he said, “A New Yorker is also a person who was born somewhere else and came to New York in the quest of something.” Where did you come to New York from and what were you in quest of? Dev Hynes I was in quest of an apartment when I first came... Lauren Martin Oh, that’s hard luck. Dev Hynes It took a while, actually. Yeah, it’s kind of weird because I was actually talking about this recently, how I never moved to New York so I never had that moment. I kind of just went there on a whim and I took my backpack and I stayed on a friend of a friend’s couch in Long Island city and then it’s like nine years later, and I’m still there. So I never had like a, “I’m leaving, bye everyone,” like London kind of a farewell thing, and I kind of regret that a little bit because they always seemed fun. I like to have fun (laughs) Lauren Martin What, do you say you enjoy the farewells? They’re fun? Dev Hynes Yeah, I’ve been to many people’s farewells and they seem so fun, so... Lauren Martin So you left to have a farewell. You just wanted the event. Dev Hynes Well, I never got one, but yeah, I did that and I knew a few people but they were friends of friends of friends, like distant acquaintances, but I don’t know if people here live in New York or have been there, but you make friends pretty quickly there. I was lucky enough to and I’ve stayed. Lauren Martin Did you kind of go on the tail end of a musical project? You went on tour and then you just decided to stay? What was the whim of going there, because it had such a magnetic pull as a place? Dev Hynes Yeah, yeah, not really, I mean it was after the first Lightspeed Champion album and I toured that and that had come to an end, and I wasn’t really living anywhere at that point. London didn’t feel like a home because I had moved out to tour and so the idea of just kind of going somewhere seemed really appealing, especially if they spoke English, so I thought New York, because initially I did think of maybe going to France or somewhere. I remember that. I mean I was like 20, 21 and then, yeah, I just went to New York. Lauren Martin So a romantic notion became a realist notion, and you just had to get on with it. Dev Hynes Yeah, pretty much. Lauren Martin Once you got to New York, what did you start to do? How did you form emotional habits and musical habits once you get to a new place? Dev Hynes I started writing music that would eventually be the second Lightspeed album. It’s funny because with every Blood Orange release, they always talk about it like the New York album, which I always think is funny because the second Lightspeed Champion album was the first album I wrote in New York, and so now there’s been four since then. I started writing that album, and then actually I started realizing I would write songs and my voice wouldn’t hit the things I knew it could do, which wasn’t much anyway, but it wasn’t going to the places I was aware it could go to. And then I started losing it more frequently, and so I decided to see a doctor and they discovered I had nodes and all that stuff in my throat, and so I actually had to come back to London to have this operation and I couldn’t speak for like three months and I had to whisper for another two months. During that period I started working more on my instrumentation and piano playing, but I started writing a lot of instrumentals, and a couple of them I think are on that second Lightspeed album. That was actually really informative for a lot of things that I do now because I couldn’t use my voice. It was never really like a strength, but not being able to use it really made me focus a lot more on instruments and so it was kind of like a blessing in some way. Lauren Martin You have quite a physical way of thinking about music that’s quite internal for you. Can you explain that, and how you work through writing music with this internal way of working? Dev Hynes I write a lot of music in my head, not necessarily like fully formed pieces of music but I will have... I mean, this is going to sound weird but I’m never really too worried about the execution of the music. It’s more just kind of creating the story or atmosphere and instrumentation and I usually work like that, like I’ll write a lot of things down and I’ll have it in my head and I’ll kind of know the end goal, and then it’s the later period. I always say that I’m never really making an album in periods of time. People ask me if I’m making an album and I usually say no because I just have a bunch of these ideas, but then there’ll be a period where something will click in my head and then I start mixing, and editing and I always feel like that’s the actual period when I’m making the album because the idea is I don’t want to say easy, because it’s not necessarily easy but the ideas are very free, and they kind of just come to me and then it’s the meshing it together. I don’t know. I view it like building a house or something. It’s like I have the idea in my head but then I actually have to go and build the damn house. That’s a little different. Lauren Martin I remember reading something really thoughtful from you, and you said that certain chord progressions and certain ways of writing music are aesthetically appealing like the combinations of color. Do you think about music in terms of color? Can you go into that a little bit? Dev Hynes Yeah, yeah, I do. It’s the main reason I use a lot of chord progressions over and over again. I don’t really have any shame in it because it’s really just to please me, and it’s patterns that I think are really, really nice and so a lot of themes are pleasing. It’s why a lot of times in my albums, musical things repeat over and over again, because I’ll be working on music and then that theme will come back in my head. Then it will fit perfectly and so I just want to use it, but yeah, it’s color and pattern based, you know. Lauren Martin When we’re using New York as almost a base note of a place where you lay the musical foundation; when I know that in a process of writing your music, you do field recordings of the city and they inspire more written musical parts that are more fleshed out. Can you talk about that as well? Dev Hynes Yeah, I record a lot of field sounds, daily really, I have so many it’s pretty crazy. A little creepy, too, I guess but... Lauren Martin Why creepy? Dev Hynes I mean you shouldn’t really just record people daily, but I do (laughs). I don’t know, but yeah, so I record a lot of that. I always love the different textures and sounds and there’s melodies in it. There are melodies and sometimes, especially for this last album, I would write from those street sounds, whether there was an actual melody in there or not, there’s a rhythm to it and I’ll write from that. There’s a song called “With Him“ on the last album and also “Squash Squash,” and they both have two sides of the same coin essentially, one’s an extension of the other. That started from a recording in Central Park. There’s a bridge in Central Park that I think is the most acoustically perfect sounding bridge... I was walking towards there, and there was a female opera singer singing. I can’t remember what it was, but she was singing something. To my left there was a saxophone playing and they were meshing together so amazingly. I think on that audio, I’m walking with someone and they’re talking to me and I’m not listening to them. You can kind of hear them on the album talking. I have no idea what they’re talking about. I recorded that, then wrote the melody for “With Him” over the top of that stemming from Puccini type melodies to reference the opera singer, but then built from the saxophone parts additional saxophone parts. That song was made from that street recording. Lauren Martin I think we should listen to that, actually. This is one of your songs called “With Him.” (music: Blood Orange – “With Him” / applause) Tell me why you would go to the effort of fleshing it out yourself rather than just instilling a found sound recording in an album. Dev Hynes You mean why I would actually record the sound? It doesn’t really make sense for me to use other fields of sound, especially because it’s so personal, everything I’m doing. Part of the joy of making music is you’re making music. Even when I was younger, around high school times, me and friends would recreate other people’s songs just for fun. Then we would try and do our own versions of it. That is the most fun thing, creating something that I can be a fan of. For me, making field recordings and then writing songs based around them is really exciting because it’s something I’ve created. I still have that school boy feeling of, “Damn, I can’t believe I did that, that is close to this thing that I like.” Lauren Martin It’s like you’re mirroring your own achievements, like a mirror of the things that you love and the affection between those things? Dev Hynes Yeah, definitely. My friends can attest for it, but I’m the biggest fanboy that you could find of music. Things that I’m a fan of, I’m a die hard fan of it. I’m always trying to, for my own benefit, get to a point of these things I’m a fan of. Lauren Martin Actually, that might be a lovely moment to move into somebody else who very much embedded in New York, who came to New York from somewhere else in quest of something, and that’s Arthur Russell. Can you tell us about your affection for Arthur the person, as well as the musician? His posthumous legacy is very much shaped around character, as well as sound and as well as place and I think that’s such an interesting appeal as a person. Could you explore a little bit of that about yourself? Dev Hynes Yeah, I could try. (laughs) It’s been an ongoing experience of finding his music and it being so appealing to me on so many different levels. I’ve been a fan of the Calling Out of Context album when that came out. Seeing as there was a cello on the cover was very exciting for me as a young cello player. Then finding out these different avenues he also worked in was very warming for me, because I’ve always been such a lover of different avenues of music. Seeing someone else doing that, but their hand print being very firmly on it all is very inspiring. On top of that, I feel like he really embodied a form of New York. He essentially did something to [suit] all of my different tastes in music. Lauren Martin What’s the collage effect in your mind of that? Dev Hynes I guess dance music, classical, more soundscapey type things. His melodies, if people are a fan they would agree, they are like no other. It’s definitely been a big influence. I’m still a big fan. I’m still learning things about him and his music, which I like. With all of the things that I’m a big lover of, I want to constantly be surprised. Lauren Martin Like be in the act of discovering all the time. Dev Hynes Yeah. Lauren Martin When did you start playing cello? Tell me about your relationship with the cello. Dev Hynes In my school in Essex, in England, they would come around when you’re maybe nine and ask what instrument you want to play. Everyone in my class said drums and guitar, and so I said cello. (laughs) It kind of sums me up now. Lauren Martin It was like an antagonistic thing. I don’t want to play what you’re playing. Dev Hynes Full contrary. This also sums me up too, I also then decided to learn those instruments afterwards. (laughs) Lauren Martin Because, yeah. Once you got a cello, once you had to get one... Dev Hynes Actually, this is kind of the thing. I never had a cello, because we couldn’t afford one, so it was always rented from Redbridge, which is the council there. I actually didn’t own a cello until about two years ago. The first time I ever bought one, and it recently broke. (laughs) I was playing a solo show in New York, and I put the cello down, did whatever else I was doing just mid-show, and then picked the cello up to play again and noticed it was out of tune, which was odd because I played it three minutes ago. Looked down, D string is flapping. Even more confused. Moved to the neck, snapped in half. Someone had stepped on it while I was playing. Lauren Martin There’s a very audible wave of groans from all the musicians. Dev Hynes I know. Lauren Martin They felt that. Dev Hynes Thank you for feeling that. That’s really... Yeah. Lauren Martin How did that affect your relationship with an instrument that you didn’t own necessarily? What was your idea of playing an instrument as a musician, as an artist, if you don’t have the physical thing to hand? How does that affect your relationship with the music? Dev Hynes That’s interesting. I think because of that, I don’t really care about owning instruments. Only this month did I get a guitar. In all the other shows that I played a guitar, it was a borrowed or rented guitar because I didn’t have one because I felt like I could just... Yeah. I don’t have that, I guess that precious feeling. Instead, I’m just excited about playing any instrument because it’s always going to be different. I don’t really need the warmth of something I own. Yeah, that has... I think that has affected me a lot actually, and it’s probably part of why a lot of the time I write things in my head, because I never really had instruments to play stuff on. It’s kind of interesting. This is a self realization in real time that you just witnessed. Lauren Martin You’re getting an exclusive here. Why don’t we listen to some Arthur Russell? Something that you’ve selected. What is this song... I hate to say about, because that sounds so literal. What is appealing in an introductory sense to this song that we’ve picked? Dev Hynes Well, I actually picked this song, because a) I love it. But also this has happened a few times, but sometimes as I kind of mentioned before, as an exercise on board, I’ll try and create something that has the same mood as a song I like. It’s not like taking the notes and recreating the music. It’s more just like trying to get that feeling that that song gives me. An example of a failed exercise of that is that this song on my album that eventually became “Juicy 1-4” started off as I was trying to do a percussion exercise related to this song. Then it just went somewhere else. This is one of my favorites. Lauren Martin Fantastic. This is “Make 1, 2 (Gem Spa Dub)” by Arthur Russell. (music: Arthur Russell – “Make 1, 2 (Gem Spa Dub)” / applause) Dev Hynes That song is so fucking good. Lauren Martin You were actually... Dev Hynes That song is crazy good. Lauren Martin You were playing the chords there. Is there a way that you can explain on either instrument what it is that’s appealing? Dev Hynes Probably not. (laughs) Have to get Gonzales back in to do that. Lauren Martin But you were playing the chords out there. How would you explain the machinations of a song like that, and what it is that you do within that vein that is purposeful to you? Dev Hynes Well, when I write vocal melodies, and I feel like maybe I did get that from him, I really try to push the limits of the chords underneath it. I try and really sometimes erratically jump and move in the notes. I’m trying to think of an example. But, I can’t. Yeah, no. Those chords, especially in that song, they’re really wild because they’re kind of constantly moving. His chords are always moving and doing weird shapes and ninths and things. Then, the vocal will fly with it. It never really... You kind of know it’s weird, but never really feels weird. It still feels really pleasing and really natural. Something that you can sing along to. Yeah, that’s always been an influence that I’ve taken from that. Lauren Martin When you’re learning an instrument like the cello, I can imagine that a music teacher directs you to certain people. “This is the person that you should be studying if you study this instrument.” What are the people that you were told to study when you were studying cello and how did you feel about being told who to pay attention to for a particular instrument? Dev Hynes That’s interesting actually. Well, I was always a big fan of the Bach cello suites. I was always a big fan of Bach in general. I was going to put, could’ve been a good segue, I was going to put a Bach song on our playlist. I did not. Lauren Martin (whispering) You can just play it. Dev Hynes Oh my god. I’m... It may not seem that way, but I’m a pretty shy person. I’m trying my best here to not run out of the room screaming. Lauren Martin You’re doing fantastic. Dev Hynes Like a maniac. I’m holding it together. Yeah, no Bach was always someone... Actually it’s funny, you know because I feel like all these things that when I was younger that I was told to pay attention to or I did actually study, I’ve now at 30 started re-studying all of it. I don’t know if that’s just a thing that happens but it’s really been... I recently just bought a Bach of box sheet music to try and finally understand a lot of those counterpoints and things. Yeah, no, who else. I’m fucking derailing. Yeah. Bach and... Oh yeah. I really loved Casals. I really loved Pablo Casals when I was younger. Lauren Martin Who is that? Dev Hynes Pablo Casals was a cellist. He was actually the cellist that discovered the Bach suites. He found them in a store in Spain with his dad. At a time where you had to go into the stores and buy sheet music to get new music in general. He found them. He was an amazing cellist. He had a really crazy style compared to a lot of the cleaner stars now. His stuff is pretty rugged and he would... It was pretty rough around the edges. There’s a quote of his, where someone asked, I cannot remember how old he was when he died, but he was pretty old. Towards the end of his life someone asked him why he still practiced all day. He said because he’s starting to notice a slight difference. He was constantly trying to better himself. When I was younger I used to kind of obsess over that. Then of course Yo-Yo Ma because he’s the one. That was people I looked to then. Then I was really... My sister played piano. That’s kind of the reason any music in me even really happened. I would cry when my sister would go to her piano lesson when I was really young, so my mom would let me go sit in on piano lessons. That was really the first music exposure that I had. I kind of play piano and had, after a while I did take lessons from that same teacher. Mrs. Chalis in Essex. Yeah. My sister was just a big influence musically growing up. She would play all the musicals and stuff. That was always something that I was looking to, trying to play Hair. Then trying to play songs from like Funny Girl, and Swing Time and all those things. Lauren Martin It sounds like a lot of your musical practice has for many years not actually been about practicing. It’s been about observing other musicians. Drawing from them, writing music in your head without possibly access or ease of access to instruments. How has that accumulated over the years with your written, processed, recorded, engineered albums? What’s been the influence of that? Dev Hynes Well you know another thing I was just thinking is that that’s probably why I ended up dancing so much, too. I would watch a lot of those things, a lot of those musicals and instantly want to imitate some form of it. The easiest form to imitate would be to dance. I really fell into production stuff. The first actual production credit I got was a song by an artist called Diana Vickers who was actually, she was like an X Factor, UK contestant. (laughs) She didn’t win. It was after the show. For some reason, I guess she loved the first Lightspeed album and asked to write with me. I went into a studio. It was just me, her, and an engineer. I just played a bunch of stuff. Played drums, bass, guitar, I didn’t check if things were in tune. I just... In my mind I was just writing things. Did that. Then after that she went on to do a musical. I cannot remember which one, but the release of music was essentially put aside. A year later I get an email saying, “OK so what’s the fee for your producer credit?” I was just like, what? Confused because I always believed that the song would be re-played. It wasn’t. That’s the first production credit I ever got on anything. Kind of made me think that maybe I could. Then I felt like the song didn’t really sound good. I wasn’t too... It made me kind of want to do a better version of things when I know what’s actually happening. I can be in control. Even then it wasn’t anything I was particularly striving for. It wasn’t really until I met Solange and actually Theophilus London, too. They both would ask me opinions of things. I would write with them. The way it would fall in terms of the engineering side... It wasn’t really until those two started giving me confidence in stuff that I started really producing. Lauren Martin When you met Solange for your first session, it was in LA with Theophilus London, correct? Dev Hynes Yeah, yeah. Lauren Martin Yeah. Dev Hynes Damn. Research. (laughs) Lauren Martin You were playing Solange parts of your first record as Blood Orange. Could we perhaps play something from that so that people could get a sense of the progression of what you’ve been doing? Dev Hynes Yeah, that’s cool. Lauren Martin Maybe “Sutphin Boulevard?” Dev Hynes Yeah, sure. Lauren Martin What’s the story behind this song? Your use of perspective is so fascinating in how you write lyrics. Who is the person that inspired this record, “Sutphin Boulevard” record? Dev Hynes That record was half about myself, just moving to New York and dancing in New York. Going out to vogue nights and places like that. Then also about Octavia St. Laurent. Actually that song, I wrote it to scenes. I used to do a thing where I’d write music to film scenes. Another weird exercise of mine. A film I like, I would put it on and I would just imagine having to write music to match the film. Lauren Martin Would it be music to match the film in your own emotional world, or music to match the film as a soundtrack? Dev Hynes In my own world. Yeah. I remember so clearly, but I was booking a lot of solo Blood Orange shows in New York at that time. That would be at like 2 AM and not many people there. Angus might have been at a few of those actually. Yeah. I had a show that night. I started making “Sutphin Boulevard” to match Paris is Burning. I started editing the scenes up and then making music on top of it. That demo is actually still online. It’s there somewhere on YouTube. Lauren Martin OK. Well we can hear the album version of that then. (music: Blood Orange – “Sutphin Boulevard” / applause) Lauren Martin You were saying you don’t perform that song live very often, why is that? Dev Hynes I just forget about it. I want to start playing it live again after hearing it, it sounds cool. Lauren Martin Tell us about how you wrote a song like that. Tell us about the writing of that song, what are the chords? What are the strings? You see where I’m going with this? Dev Hynes Oh my God. (laughs) OK, I’ll just... (applause) Lauren Martin That’s my guy, that’s my guy. (music: Dev Hynes – "Live Improvisation") Dev Hynes That was a piano, it was an improvisation I was doing at BAM because they were letting me use their studio to dance in, whenever there’s no one there. They have a piano there so I bring my stuff and record these improvisations. The piano on “I Know” was from an improvisation that I kind of chopped up and made into that song. I mean it’s always kind of... When I was walking around upstairs, if there’s any equipment or a studio somewhere I can use, I’ll use it. I’m so impatient that a lot of the times things on my albums are the way they are almost because I’m so impatient. If it’s me, if there’s a song on my record where it’s me playing all the parts, it’s because I wanted that song to exist in that moment. If there’s another singer on it or another bassist it’s because they were there or they could come in the next hour (laughs) and make it happen. Same thing if I had a piano, if I owned a piano, I’d probably do an entire piano album. I had a day in a studio with just a bass and drums, I’d probably do a whole album on just bass and drums. Lauren Martin Your whole sound is based on the necessity of the fragmentation of your schedule and your ideas of movement in a room. So interesting that you’d say you’d write piano tracks in a dance studio. Do you think about dancing when you write on the piano? Dev Hynes Yeah, a lot of the time. In that particular moment it was more, I was just taking a break and just playing the piano. It’s on my mind. That song actually has a dance video to it that I made like a couple years ago and haven’t put out yet because I’m a freak. Piano and dance is a very connective thing in my mind. Just hanging out over here. Lauren Martin You can hang out here as long as you’d like, if you don’t feel comfortable you can come back with me. OK, thank you. (applause) Just a little bit, just chilling. OK, so we’ve talked about movement, we’ve talked about instruments, we’ve talked about sound. Let’s talk about the instrument that everybody has, which is a voice. Here we go. Don’t worry, I won’t make you sing, that’s fine. We have a voice and piano that I’d like people to experience loud and full. Tell us why you love Nina Simone. Dev Hynes Nina is just to me, the ultimate really. I mean from her voice, there’s so much, these are all things I think everyone knows, it’s just the expression and the feelings that she puts across in her voice and in her piano playing. She’s like maybe one of my favorite pianists that’s ever lived. Lauren Martin Why is that? What is it about her playing of the piano that’s so interesting to you? Dev Hynes Well you know, everyone knows, but she always had this thing where she wanted to be a classical pianist playing in Carnegie Hall. You can hear the technicality in there but you can feel that pain of never being able to get the respect as a pianist that she, maybe rightly deserved. The combination is just unreal. It can be a song written by someone else that had a completely different meaning and she can play it and sing it in her arrangement and it’s the most breathtaking thing you’ll ever hear. Lauren Martin Well let’s hear the most breathtaking thing I’ll ever hear, this is “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” by Nina Simone. (music: Nina Simone – “Nobody’s Fault But Mine” / applause) Dev Hynes I mean, it’s unreal, shit, can you swear on this? OK, cool. Lauren Martin Everyone asks, the answer is always yes. Dev Hynes It’s really, it’s so painful watching older Nina Simone stuff. I don’t know, I get a pain from it that I don’t know if it’s the same pain other people feel. It’s not because she can sometimes be incoherent and a little not there. It’s that you see this thing where she feels she didn’t quite get the respect that she deserves. It’s just fucking true. Listen to that piece of music, that is some other worldly shit. It is so... There’s no one that can’t say that that is an exceptionally talented and special person. I was looking at this Marvin Gaye interview recently, this crazy interview, I don’t know where it’s from, but it’s half an hour long and he’s talking about the same thing in a very different way. He’s talking about at that time there would be Grammy awards for best R&B singer and then best singer. He would win best R&B singer and it wouldn’t be televised and best singer would be televised. You can see he’s so defeated from being told that he can’t, that his voice is not worthy of being honored on television, which is insane. This stuff is really sad and I do get sad about it because it’s really only when these people die that people decide to honor their genius. There’s no consequence then. If the person’s alive... I don’t know what they think the consequence could be but to them there is one. I think about this with, I think about Stevie Wonder a lot. Obviously he’s someone that we all know as a genius and we all love him, think he’s amazing. I don’t know if he’s truly celebrated as much as he really should be. It’s so next level, the stuff he’s done. The music he’s given to the world and the influence he’s given, and influence on so many different levels as well. We’re talking production, song writing, musicality, how he played drums. If he was just a drummer alone, he could be one of the greatest drummers that ever lived. I think about this, and obviously I’m naming black artists. I think it is the case, I think there obviously is a hierarchy when it comes to honoring not just musicians but people in different fields. The same thing for women, too. Women are underappreciated in regards to men in music and black and Asian, Indian men are under appreciated because of white men in music. It just saddens me, especially when I think about people like Nina Simone and people that clock it, people that realize, I think it’s really sad. There’s a story about Miles Davis going to, I’m spacing on his name, jazz-heads help out, older jazz musician who would smile a lot. Lauren Martin There’s not many. Dev Hynes Not Hancock... Armstrong. Thank you, the lights are getting to me. He went to Louis Armstrong’s birthday and people kind of were somewhat shocked about it because Miles Davis would say a lot of derogatory things about Louis Armstrong for essentially pandering to white America, get onstage and get fame. He obviously respected and loved Louis Armstrong. I think that deep down it’s a sense of sometimes you have to, have no choice. Him doing that then did pave the way for a lot other amazing musicians, Miles included. These are things that are heavily on my mind. Especially now that I feel I’ve been making music for quite some time. It’s a little disheartening to realize that regardless of how far I think I can go, there’s a ceiling to it. That’s what I get when I listen to people like Nina and Stevie. It’s this feeling of exceptional artistry that I feel like just doesn’t get honored. I mean, do you know the Nicholas Brothers? Have you ever... I love the Nicholas Brothers. They’re dancers, if anyone doesn’t know, but if you have the time you should look up - Just type into Google, “Nicholas Brothers Staircase,” and you’ll bear witness to what Fred Astaire called the greatest dance routine ever put to film. It truly, truly, truly is. It is so out of this world, and you can watch them dance in any film and it is the greatest feeling. You see them just like shooting out the best they can do, like ultimate, ultimate joy. I was actually informed recently, I didn’t know this, but those scenes that they were in in those films... I mean, I always was aware that they had nothing to do with the storyline, but I was only last week informed that the reason that they had nothing to do with the storyline was because for when they wanted to show the film in the south, they could delete the scene. And these guys are doing their best and just not being able to... Even with someone like Fred Astaire who is seen as the best dancer saying that these guys are the best dancers, still isn’t enough, and so, I don’t know. I don’t really have a point to this, but it’s what I get from a lot of these artists that I really admire and look up to. Lauren Martin Which is part of the reason we know the name Fred Astaire, but we might not know who the Nicholas Brothers are. Dev Hynes Yeah, exactly, you know? Lauren Martin Speaking of audiences: who gets to see things, who gets to appreciate things, who is allowed to understand and view things in a certain context, the year that Nina Simone recorded, that’s actually a cover, it was like a black gospel song originally from the late ’20s, I believe. She recorded it in 1969 and she performed in the Philhamonic in New York in the same year and there’s something that she said that was so beautiful, and very pointed, because this is almost 50 years since she said this, and she said, I want to quote it to get it right, “This music is not addressed primarily to white people, though it does not put you down in any way. It simply ignores you, for my people need all the inspiration and love that they can get.” Dev Hynes Wow. That’s amazing. Lauren Martin Then she went on to play “Young, Gifted and Black.” I know this is a song that you and Solange are very fond of, you’ve performed together. Tell me about performing blackness in white spaces as a classically trained band. Dev Hynes It’s interesting, I’ll tell you that. It’s the same... It’s very funny. This is a slight tangent, but say if I’m in a cab or somewhere and someone will ask what I do, and I’ll say I’m a musician or something, and then they’ll say, “Oh, what do you do? Reggae? Rap?” It’s always, always the question, so I always reply and say, “Classical,” because why not? Lauren Martin Well it’s true. Dev Hynes That’s the thing. I grew up classically trained and it’s the music I mainly listen to. Sometimes, that actually ends up in some really great conversations. I remember one conversation on a plane I had with this woman and it was such an amazing plane ride because of it because it turned out she was a member of the Met Opera for the last 20 years, and so this amazing conversation, being that other times the conversation isn’t as enlightening. Lauren Martin Especially when you’re stuck on a plane. Dev Hynes Exactly, but you know, I just really try and it sounds clichéd, I know, but I really just try and be myself because I don’t think there’s anything else I can do or be, that is what that means to me. My whole thing is kind of what she says, I’m not ever trying to make people feel like they’re not wanted, because I think everyone takes what they want from music and art and all kinds of means. I choose to take what I want to take from certain things. I remember a few years ago, I bought the biography of Charles Ives and I was super excited about it and I got home and I just opened up a random page and it was a picture of him in high school in black face and I was just like, “Oh, Charles, no, please.” This is an ongoing thing as a black classical fan, you have to just take the L sometimes, but I choose to take what I wanted to take. I mean, if he’s... I mean, I don’t want to judge him. I mean I kind of do, but if, you know, if... Lauren Martin It’s okay. We all judge. Dev Hynes Well, if he’s a piece of shit then I’m going to choose to maybe take some of his atonality lessons and use it for myself in my way. I mean, that’s kind of a harsh example of what I was trying to get to but when I perform, and if it’s primarily a white space like I really am... I want people to just see me, and they can be any race but I want them to kind of just see who I am and not forget. It’s easy to forget when you’re watching someone perform and obviously that’s kind of fine, but I think I’ve kind of gone through some things and I’m really laying it all out. It takes me so much to perform. I can be kind of unpleasant to be around after, because it really takes so much from me. Because it’s not really a natural thing for me, but I just hope people can see that I’m really giving myself. I had a moment in the summer where I was playing a festival in Europe and I had a realization that I was the only person dancing and it really shook me. Really made me feel not good, because I felt eyes on me, but not in a way that was particularly warm. It felt like a curiosity. And so that was really interesting, because obviously I’m aware that that’s me making assumptions as well, and where that part of that situation is how I’m receiving what is coming towards me, and then me turning it back out. And I wrote something somewhat close to the subject on the album, there’s a song called “Hands Up,” not “Hands Up,” is it “Hands Up?” (laughs) Lauren Martin Is it the one where you’re aware of the white women? Dev Hynes “But You,” there’s a single called “But You” on the album which is about walking on the street. I meet a person on the street and there’s a young white woman in front of me and I’m thinking, ‘Should I just cross the road now or should I walk faster or should I stay walking slowly?’ I can sense that maybe she feels slightly threatened by my presence. I was doing the same thing where it’s like I’m projecting that on myself as much as anyone else is. I’ve tried now with live performances to not put that on myself, that feeling that I feel like I’m the only person dancing. The eyes are there kind of out of curiosity to see what is happening. I’m trying to now fully project outwards and try and make something fun and have people enjoy the show. Lauren Martin Should we listen to that song so people can get a sense of it? Sure. What’s the name of it again so people can remember? Dev Hynes “But You.” Lauren Martin This is off your new album? Dev Hynes Yes. (music: Blood Orange – “But You” / applause) Dev Hynes You know what’s crazy from that song? Lauren Martin What’s that? Dev Hynes I’d written all the melodies a few years ago and was kind of not scared, but I just never really felt fully committed to the idea. Then I kind of decided one day that I wanted to just do it. I went to my studio and recorded all the instruments in an hour maybe. That vocal line, the main one, all the verses, it’s a one take vocal and it was a scratch vocal and it’s the first one I did because I wanted to go play ping-pong. (laughs) That is... Lauren Martin You got your priorities. Dev Hynes Yeah. There’s a lot of stories like that to do with this album. The song “Best to You,” that has Lorely singing ... Lauren Martin That’s actually my favorite. Dev Hynes Oh cool. Lauren Martin It’s beautiful. Dev Hynes That’s honestly all her because I had the instrumental and she was at my apartment and I was playing her instrumentals and she liked that one. She came up with that vocal line, which was crazy and I added my vocal part, which is actually from another song I’d written. Then we didn’t finish it because I wanted to go see a movie and I had the tickets already booked. Lauren Martin See this is like the synesthesia, the collages, this is everything coming together. Dev Hynes Yeah and then luckily we finished it at some point. (laughs) I cannot help it. Lauren Martin Actually I’d really like to talk to you about the use of female voices. I think maybe a great way to preface that is just to play that record with Empress Of on it. It’s stunning because your relationship with female, I don’t mean voices of women, I mean female voices is so fascinating in your work. This is almost like quite traditional because you’ve got a woman to come in and sing on it. There’s other ways that you work, so we’ll talk about that. This is off the same record, this is off Freetown Sound and this is called “Best to You.” (music: Blood Orange – “Best to You” / applause) Dev Hynes That’s really all Lorely that really makes that song. It’s crazy because that instrumental was really in the scrapped pile. Lauren Martin Why in the scrap pile? If you’re working in a collage style in your head, what is a scrap? Why do you recover it? Dev Hynes Everything actually. (laughs) Yeah, it could have come back at some point. I might have it on me, but as I said before, that vocal melody that I did was from another song that didn’t make the album. A lot of times if I’m just working or something, it doesn’t hit. I just feel stuck. I just put it away. It’s two scrap piles. There’s the basic one and then there’s also one which is insane. I’ve been told to not do this because I do it a lot, but sometimes I permanently delete things if I don’t think it’s going anywhere, which is harder to do in 2016 than you’d think. I would make sure there’s no trace of the session so that I have to start again. Lauren Martin One of the most interesting things that you do as a musician is your ability to harness quite a particular feminine energy, either in your own voice or through other women. I’d like to know about this. I hesitate to use the word fluidity. That takes away from the sincerity of either one or the other and the relationship that they can have. It’s not necessarily the same, but it’s mutual. Could you talk about your role as a songwriter writing for women and then using your own voice in a feminine way? Dev Hynes Yeah. If I’m writing, I guess there’s different ways this happens. Sometimes maybe I’ve written a song already and someone wants that song to use it. In that sense, they’re usually just transposing to fit how they feel. I’m also not a precious songwriter at all. I want as much from them as can happen. When I’m writing with women, all I want to do is essentially just be there to help in anyway I can and to do the things that I feel like I can do best and for them to do what they feel they can do best. That’s not shutting out any form of creativity or getting out of a comfort zone, but there’s a real power. I’ve always felt this in knowing what it is you can do and what you can bring. I always want their voice, not singing voice, but their voice to come out. I can’t speak for them. I can’t speak for anyone, not just women. My part in it is I really just want to be there to help make the best that I can and that they can. I learn from it. I don’t go into it as this "I’m the man that will help you." I’m going in... Lauren Martin I’ve got this, love. Dev Hynes Exactly. I’m learning so much. I learned so much from the times I’ve worked with Carly Rae Jepsen. It has been really interesting, really eye opening to me. There’s so much that she does and that she can do that I’m in awe of. That’s the same with everyone I work with. With Lorely with the “Best to You” track... First of all, I feel blessed that she even did that. I’m in love with her production style. She’s one of my favorite producers. This goes back to what we were saying before. If someone was to mention Empress Of, you probably don’t think producer. She wrote and produced everything you hear from her. Yes, for her to then bring what she does and her voice onto my track, I felt that was a real blessing. That’s really what it is. Those moments on my album with Lorely or BEA1991, it’s really I’m letting them do what they want to show and say in my music. If something in that triggers them, then I want to hear it. Lauren Martin Perhaps the last thing before we go to some questions, as someone who has been writing music for years, has worked with many others, Solange Knowles, that you mentioned before, Empress Of, Carly Rae Jepsen, worked with I’m not going to say more women than men. I’m not going to put it on a list, but it seems to be a loving habit. Do you ever write from a female perspective of your own? I see the fleshing out of Prince’s Camille and some of the stuff that you do, how he would pitch his vocals for a verse, sing from a female perspective but still as Prince. Is that something that you have an affinity with? I hear it in some of your music. Rather than instead of if you can’t find a woman to work with you still have that within you that you can express in a musical sense. Can you talk about that? Dev Hynes Yeah. More on the first album, kind of like what I said before about how if there’s a piano there, I’ll use a piano. The first album was so just me in my bedroom with nothing around that a lot of the times I knew the mood I wanted to get to. I would try and get there myself vocally, but it never felt like it was really there. It sounds insane, but I was scared to do anything. I was scared that I could do what I want. It’s a weird feeling, but that sometimes happens in music. You sometimes think you set rules for yourself without being aware that you’re even doing it. You can do what you want. I feel like I didn’t really realize that until maybe when I was doing Cupid Deluxe. It might sound cheesy, but I started thinking of it as not just this is a song on a Blood Orange album. I was just thinking of that as music that I would want to listen to. As music I would want to listen to, what would make this song, piece of music, the best it can be? That, to me, is other people’s minds and other people’s taste that I really trust and look up to. Everyone that ever is on my records, they’re all people I look up to. On the song “Augustine” on the last album, Aaron Maine who plays as Porches has a credit. I don’t think anyone’s got the physical, but on the physical it says, “third chords and hook suggestion credited to Aaron Maine.” He was in the room and I was working on the song. He started playing guitar because he was bored or whatever. He added an F sharp to the B minor. It was just better than what I had, so I used it. It’s kind of the vibe of when I’m making music. I mean, honestly, if you’re a friend, you don’t even have to be a musician, but if I value you as a person and your opinions on things, and you want to add to this, then feel free to add to it. I don’t claim to know what’s best. I just want music to be as enjoyable for me as it is for other people. Lauren Martin Well, it has been very enjoyable today. Before we go to questions, thank you very much, Dev Hynes. (applause) Dev Hynes Thank you. Thanks. Lauren Martin Does anyone have a question for Dev? Audience Member Thank you very much for... Dev Hynes Thank you very ... How are you? Audience Member Good. Yeah, I was just wondering if you could give us some insight into the visual aspect of things and your music videos and stuff like that. Dev Hynes Yeah, you mean like artwork and videos and that whole thing? Audience Member Yeah, basically how involved in the process you are and... Dev Hynes Yeah, it’s actually, I’m almost too involved. It’s a little crazy. I never really mention it, but for each Blood Orange album, the artwork process was as intense and thoughtful as making the music. It’s a real thing. I’ll try and do this quickly but the first album, I found a website... I was looking for photos of Sally’s Hideaway, which was a club in New York, which is where a lot of the Paris Is Burning stuff happened, and eventually made way for Escuelita and all these other clubs. I found this website. It was like a Geocities-style website and it had club photography from that time. It was the most beautiful images I had ever seen. It was stunning. All shot on medium format and it just looked so great. I just clicked the contact button wishfully and... I’m spacing on his name right now. I’m so bad but... He replied and I started this dialogue with this guy that took all those photos. He was there and I... this goes back to the demo I made of “Sutphin Boulevard” because the album was not really in existence. I sent him that demo and the video, and he messaged me back saying that he cried because he’s in that video and he was shooting that day, and he hadn’t looked at that footage really since then. From there, it kind of started this friendship where I started looking at photos. Very similar thing for the second album. I’ll try and speed this up because I don’t know how interesting this is for everyone. Second album was a similar thing. There was a book called Forty-Deuce. I was recording the vocals for a lot of the Cupid Deluxe at Lounge Studios, which is in Times Square, and I was reading this book Forty-Deuce which is all photos from Times Square, ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s. Got in touch with the publishers and the photographer, and the guy that was in charge of looking after the photographer’s photographs said that he had a place just on Chrystie Street which has all the negatives of everything. I dial up with them and I went there. I went through for hours all of these different negatives, looking for pictures that felt and matched, and found that photo, which was from halloween, which is why she’s wearing a mask. I actually didn’t even really see it blown up till we were doing the artwork. This last album, it was... I was trying to find an image that, to me, was as strong as the emotion that I was trying to put across on this record. I’d been a fan of Deana Lawson’s photography for some time and then eventually reached out. The album wasn’t even finished. I just started a dialogue with her and then we started hanging out. She came to my studio, I’d show her all the lyrics, I sent her all the lyrics and played her all the music. We were possibly thinking of working on a new image for the artwork. We’re both kind of crazy and really busy, and then I started realizing that I was really more gravitating to this image that already existed. That photo on the artwork, she took in 2009 and that’s her bedroom in Bed-Stuy. I start gravitating towards that image. I was almost scared to use it, I realized, and that’s why I was trying to create a new one. I think I knew that image was really the one. To me, it resembled how I felt about the album, which was being inside in almost like a safe space, whether that’s in your head or in the arms of someone loving, whoever that may be. Then the outside is just the kind of chaotic sounds of New York happening. Yeah, that’s... Sorry for such a long answer, but... Audience Member Thank you very much. Audience Member Thank you. Anyone else? Dev Hynes That is a question, isn’t it? I might. If I was you... When people are walking in, I was... Audience Member Hello. Dev Hynes Hi. Audience Member I’d like you maybe to talk a little bit more about the dance part because I’m also a dancer and a musician, and I feel that after I started dancing it really changed the way I viewed music. I could actually play better and express myself better. I’d like you to maybe talk about how you feel about dancing and music and all that. Dev Hynes Yeah. Dancing is... Honestly, I’m maybe at my happiest when I’m dancing, yeah. It’s really so pure. Yeah, once I started to bring... It used to be pretty separate, the dancing aspect to the music aspect for me. Once I started slowly pushing them together, the same thing... I started becoming more comfortable musically, I felt. Especially performing-wise. The same before, it usually takes a lot for me to perform, but then once I started incorporating more dance into it, I started feeling a lot more comfortable. In the song, I know that I mentioned before, it really did stem from dancing. I was dancing for maybe four or five hours before I went to the piano. It was still heavily on my mind, so I then choreographed to that piece. They exist in my head as one and the same. “Better Numb” kind of feels that way, too. There’s a few songs on this album that, to me, stem from dancing. Even outside of music, I think dance has really helped me just in general with confidence and being in touch with my body and physicality. I hope that’s okay. Audience Member Oh, that’s cool. Audience Member I have a quick question. Dev Hynes What’s up? Audience Member How you doing, man? Dev Hynes I’m good, how are you? Audience Member Good. I actually was thinking about, when you mentioned it, about how you used to play with just literally yourself on stage. I know that the latest concerts you’re doing are so spectacular. Could you talk a bit about the transition from... Obviously you do so much collaborating with people in the studio, but transitioning to realizing that with your band as it’s growing from being just you, to then a little bit bigger, to now this thing with guest vocalists on a lot of the tracks and stuff like that. Dev Hynes Yeah, it’s a pretty crazy transition. It’s kind of interesting because I’ve been somewhat on the sides and not really publicizing it, doing solo shows that I don’t tell any... Audience Member Yeah, I think I saw you went back to some piano stuff as well? A little... Dev Hynes Yeah, yeah, yeah. Audience Member Yeah, cool. Dev Hynes You know, that’s really fun for me. I think the expanding of the album into a bigger live show comes from this sense of being aware of trying to present a show and, then, on top of that, how can I present a show for the growing number of people that would want to see it in a way that would make me not run off stage and run straight to my apartment and lock the door. It really came from that, but it’s interesting, and it’s really fun for me to hear it loud, played with different musicians. I’m not strict with them at all. I’m kind of like “This is in F major. Do what you want.” It’s kind of like that, and it’s so fun for me to hear how that sounds, because these are parts that I’ve made. It’s interesting, because I think, maybe, a lot of people that go to the shows, it may sound like it’s just like the record, like the basic themes are all there, but there’s so much more added to it, because I’m aware that it’s a live show, and you have to... I’ve always said that I will never be the guy that you come to see me play, and it’s like four hours of noise. If it’s going to be four hours of noise, I will tell you beforehand, but I’m never going to do the bait and switch, because I’m a fan, and I know what it means to go to a show to see someone play an album that you can listen to a lot, and so I try and give that kind of experience. Audience Member Thanks, bud. Audience Member Hi. Dev Hynes Hey. Audience Member You mentioned you listen mainly to classical music. I was wondering who some of your favorite composers are and why. Dev Hynes Oh, cool. Yeah. I love Stravinsky. I’m a big Stravinsky man. I’m actually reading right now an essay by Adorno, yeah, destroying Stravinsky, just ripping him apart. (laughs) It’s kind of fun. It’s fun to read people just destroy things you’re a fan of. I think you need to do that from time to time, but, yeah, Stravinsky. I love Philip Glass, of course. Kaija Saariaho. I never pronounce her name right. Audience Member Saariaho? Dev Hynes Yeah. See, you know what I’m talking about. I never pronounce it right. Julius Eastman. I love Puccini. What have I been listening to recently, though? I love Bartok, actually, and Ligeti. It’s pretty varied, as you can tell from that. Audience Member Fairly modernist? Dev Hynes Yeah, but as I said, and I was talking to someone recently, I’m a sucker for like a sweeping Puccini melody. I can’t, I don’t know. I love the grandiose, and I think there’s a place for the big romantics. Yeah. I like... Yeah, it’s kind of varied. I recently started listening to, what was his name, Coleridge-Taylor Perkinson. Have you listened to that guy? He’s pretty amazing. He was named after Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who’s the poet. His mom named him that. He was a black poet. He was a black composer. His stuff is pretty varied, somewhat similar to all those people I named, Bartok, but I found a record where Coleridge-Taylor had composed vocals for a Max Roach album. They made a collab album, and it’s pretty nuts, and so I’ve been listening to that lately. Yeah. Audience Member Thanks. Lauren Martin You actually selected a really, really brief Puccini piece for us to potentially play you. It’s only like a minute and a bit, but maybe that could be a nice explanation for the appeal, perhaps, when you were talking about it. Dev Hynes Yeah. It is. Lauren Martin Yeah. Let’s try that. I’m not hot in the pronunciation in Italian, but this is a very brief piece, and this is from Turandot. Dev Hynes Yeah. Turandot. Lauren Martin Is it Turandot? OK. I told you I wasn’t hot in pronunciation. Dev Hynes I’m bad at all classical pronunciations. Lauren Martin Well, just as well. We can just listen to it instead. Here we go. (music: Puccini – Turandot (extract) / applause) Lauren Martin There’s a Puccini piece you like. Dev Hynes I’m such a sucker for that stuff. I love that stuff. Lauren Martin Why do you love that stuff? That actually very much makes me think of a Julius Eastman record like Femenine. Dev Hynes Oh, yeah. That just came out, right? That stuff’s crazy. Lauren Martin Yeah. What is the... it’s not very bombastic. It’s very gentle. What’s the appeal of that for you? Dev Hynes To me, it’s all in the melodies. There’s something about his melodies, especially like in that and in Tosca, that are so pleasing and somewhat airy to me. I did try on a couple moments on this album to kind of relate to some of those melodies. “Augustine” I was trying to just fully write a vocal part in the hook that could be maybe like an aria melody. Also, because I was talking about “Augustine” and relating it to Rome, so it was kind of like a nod to Puccini in my head. Lauren Martin Will there be anybody else? Audience Member Hi. Thank you very much. You have mentioned Stravinsky, and, as we know, he made a lot of music for a ballet. Are you interested, also, to make music for a ballet or to collaborate with some dancers? Dev Hynes Yeah. Definitely. I’ve done some stuff with dance but never something that’s full-on ballet. Actually, the video for “I Know” that I mentioned I made a couple years ago, which, hopefully, will come out soon, featured Maria Kochetkova, who dances with SF Ballet and ABT. I am really interested in all of that, but my thing is that I’m trying to take steps. I have a full respect for a lot of these things, and I don’t want to just dive in. I’m kind of inching my way towards a lot of these worlds, so that it’s not just like “Blood Orange The Ballet.” No one wants that. I want to take my time and pay my dues. Audience Member I have a second question. You also mentioned Philip Glass, and you did a cover version. Dev Hynes Yeah, yeah. Audience Member Maybe some stories on doing cover versions? Dev Hynes Yeah. I did this Sirius XMU thing a few weeks ago, and I never do radio sessions. It’s my second radio session in like six years or something. Because, to me, there’s nothing worse than trying to play my song in a worse way, live: [for that version] to then exist as a recording. It’s like my idea of hell. I went to do that, and they asked me to do a cover, and I realized on the day that I didn’t really know any covers. All I know are like classical, jazz pieces, and so I kind of used the moment to have a recording of me playing this Philip Glass piece, and they were down for it. Yeah. It was pretty fun. I tried listening to it a few days ago, and it was a little... I don’t know. Some of my tempos had a lot to be desired, but, yeah. That’s the story behind that. Lauren Martin Why the constant trepidation to actually perform music? Dev Hynes I honestly don’t think performing is... Well, it’s not natural for me. I think recording and making music and writing is natural, and so that’s my comfort zone. There’s something about performing and live performing that, to me, infers a ton of pressure and expectation. I feel like it’s not my strength, and so I kind of want to stay in a place where I feel like I can be the strongest, but, you know, I’m much more willing to do improvisations and maybe play... I always used to say that if you want me to play a live show, ask me to play it the morning of, because I’ll probably say yes. If it’s like a request two months in advance, it will probably be a solid no, because that’s too much time for me to think about it. You know? Lauren Martin Well, we won’t make you think too much longer. I think we’re pretty good for that. Dev Hynes, thank you so much. Dev Hynes Thank you. (applause)