DJ Toomp

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Our guest is very special. He’s very excited to be here. We are very excited to have him. It is actually your first time in Europe? He has come here all the way from Atlanta, Georgia, otherwise known as the ATL, and he is a very accomplished and talented producer. He has worked with such artists as Ludacris…

DJ Toomp

Jay Z, Kanye, Mariah, Young Jeezy, Rick Ross, lots of people.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

More people than we can even remember at this moment, so please give a warm welcome to DJ Toomp. [Applause] So Toomp, first of all we want to play a little something from your repertoire, but where does the name Toomp come from?

DJ Toomp

Toomp – the one and only miraculous producer. No, it’s not an acronym, I’m just trippin’. It is a nickname my sister gave me when I was a kid, when I was a little baby, she kept on saying “Toomp, Toomp,” and the next thing it become a nickname and I found a spelling for it – T, double O, M, P – and it became nickname, and the next thing you know when I started DJing it was like, “Toomp knows how to DJ,” so I put the DJ and it went from there.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And now you went from DJing to producing, so let’s hear something from your recent work to give everyone a taste?

DJ Toomp

Ya’ll might be familiar with this one, let’s see what we got here.

(music: Jay Z – “Say Hello” / applause)

DJ Toomp

Thank you. “Hello to the bad guy,” Jay Z, American Gangster.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, we usually go back in time and talk about how you got started and stuff like that, but real quickly, what are the elements of that track and how was it put together? It sounds like there were samples, as well as keyboards.

DJ Toomp

Oh yeah, definitely. The original record was by Tom Brock, “The Love We Share Is the Greatest of Them All.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

That is an artist from the ’70s?

DJ Toomp

Yes, sir. That particular album was produced by Barry White, and I’m a big fan of Barry White, rest in peace to him. I am crazy about his orchestration and the way he put things together, as far as the strings, that’s why with my songs you may hear a lot of orchestration like the horns and strings because that is a big Barry White influence.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Was that all sampled? Was there some extra layering?

DJ Toomp

Of course, I played my own bassline and put my Toomp drums on top of it. The pianos, the strings, everything. What I did was enhance some of the instruments that they might have had turned down back then and basically enhanced the instruments to give a live feel, enhanced the bassline also.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You said “Toomp drums,” so what does that mean exactly?

DJ Toomp

I have a certain way I treat my kicks and my snares, 808 drums but there is a certain way I EQ them and sample them back into my MPC so that way it is my custom sound. So, no matter what engineer touches it, it is going to hit the same way no matter what.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, so what equipment are you working on with this?

DJ Toomp

On that particular song, I used an ASR-10, an MPC 60. Yes, the 60. I had the 3000 and 4000, but I am crazy about the 60. My drums come out a lot rougher, and the Roland Fantom. Only those three machines, the ASR, Fantom and the 60.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And you’ve been using those for how long?

DJ Toomp

Well, the MPC came out in what, ’88? So, I’ve been using the MPC since ’89. Before that I was using the SP-1200 by Emu and I’ve been using the ASR since it came out. I have had the EPS-16+ at first so when the ASR came out I was blown away. More sampling time, crazy effects. The Roland Fantom, Fantom S that is, I have been using that ever since it came out too.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And you’ve find being through all these years this is giving you the sound that you want?

DJ Toomp

Oh yeah, of course. I’ve added a few new machines, like I incorporate Reason in lots of stuff that I do. Anybody out there use it? OK, cool. I am slowly learning Logic but I am a Reason fan right now.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You mentioned Barry White. You are a DJ. How did you get to be a DJ? What kind of parental guidance did you get as far as music goes?

DJ Toomp

Well, the first parental guidance I had as far as DJing was, “Don’t tear up the needles.” I was playing around on my parents’ stereo system. The first time I heard a mix was on a New York tape that my cousin had brought down, he just kept starting this one particular song over. I remember as a kid playing with the pause button, this was back in 1980, and that’s how I thought he was doing it until I found out he was using two turntables. I used to just move the needle back and let the pause off. So, I was kind of DJing and didn’t even know it, and looping. This was way before the technology that they use now using doing digital editing, and I used to hit the pause button. And later on, I found that people were splicing tapes to actually do that. So, I started going to the skating rink, Jellybeans is one of the most famous skating rinks in Atlanta, the movie ATL was based around Jellybeans.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Anybody seen the movie ATL?

DJ Toomp

I watched the DJ and I used to see him moving the record back and forth, but he wasn’t really mixing. But I just got an idea of starting the records over, moving the fader back and forth. The first time I got on a set I found out I had the skills to actually DJ. I begged my mom to buy me a turntable and begged my dad to buy me a mixer, and somebody in the neighborhood gave me another turntable. Definitely mismatched, one was louder than the other one, so I went through the whole struggle of trying to get my equipment together. Once I got it all right I discovered that I had the talent to actually truly be a DJ. I started doing parties for like $50, making little mix tapes, 60 minutes for $50, 90 minutes was $9, $10. So, I have always been working for myself since I was a kid and then I got into DJing after playing so much music. I used to read the credits on the back of album covers and figure out who was on drums and who was playing the guitars. I used to look on the album cover and see what studio they were recording at. So, I was interested even before I discovered I was a producer. The next thing you know, I discovered I had the knack to not only play music, but to actually create it.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And you have some musical background in the family too, correct?

DJ Toomp

Yes, my dad, he was in a group called The MVP’s, people might not be too familiar with them. They were signed to Buddah Records, the same label as Gladys Knight & The Pips. They used to tour with them, so my dad taught me how to sing as a kid. I was singing at first, but then when rap music came out, when I first heard “Rappers Delight” and The Treacherous Three, I learned how to rap so I wasn’t even into singing any more. It took me to a whole other level basically, the whole hip-hop movement.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, tell us a little bit about hip-hop in Atlanta in those years and being a DJ, because everybody always hears the stories about hip-hop from a New York perspective, or even a West Coast perspective, but what about how it was in Atlanta?

DJ Toomp

Wow, OK. In Atlanta, around ’81, it was still kind of new. And I was, believe it or not, one of the first guys in my school who knew how to moonwalk after I saw it on TV. It was on Soul Train, Jeffrey Daniel did the moonwalk and I kept on practicing until I finally got it right in the house. The next thing you know, I started with the moonwalk and started pop-locking, this is even way before I knew I could DJ. Have y’all heard of Sleepy Brown? We used to pop-lock together back in middle school at lots of house parties and stuff like that, battling everybody dancing and whatnot. So, we had a pretty strong movement as far as the hip-hop movement. I used to do graffiti on the weekends, tagging the side of buildings, drawing all kinds of stuff. I saw the movie Wild Style way before everybody knew what hip-hop was too, so I kind of had that advantage over a lot of people as far as being educated on the movement back then. So, like I say, you had a few breakdancers who came from up north who did stuff like the windmill. I never did get into the breakdancing, so that was when I really did get into DJing around the time when it was really going into breaking. We had a lot of rappers from different sides of town, lots of DJ battles. We used to have the rap battles, some people really, really started getting familiar with it, me and this guy called Raheem, we put out the first record back in ’85 before anybody was really recording rap records, on top of that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Was that the first Atlanta hip-hop record?

DJ Toomp

One of them. There was a guy named [Mojo] at first, and then MC Shy D, he was originally from the Bronx. Afrika Bambaataa’s cousin, MC Shy D…

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Anybody heard of MC Shy D? Give them a little of that record?

DJ Toomp

Let me see if you can remember this. Y’all familiar with that?

(music: MC Shy D – “Shake It”)

DJ Toomp

That was the SP-1200 at its finest.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, you said he was Bambaataa’s cousin. I didn’t know that. And he was signed to Luke, correct? So, everybody knows Luke from 2 Live Crew? And how did you meet Shy D?

DJ Toomp

That is a pretty interesting story. I won a DJ battle at the Atlanta Civic Center, and word got out that I was doing all these crazy tricks on the turntables. Around that time, that is when Shy D had “Gotta Be Tough,” he had that record, that album out. I was still in high school at the time, so I was DJing at a college step show at the same location, Atlanta Civic Center. And, so, he just took a break and was like, “Yo, I want to see DJ Toomp on turntables doing tricks and whatnot.”

By the time I was doing my routine, Shy D showed up at the front of the stage and got my attention. So, I am amazed, like, “What does he want with me?” And he was like, “Yo, I’m about to go on tour and I need another DJ. I’ve heard about you, and that’s the reason I am here.” But I was still a senior in high school and, since I was doing a college step show, I guess he thought I was out of high school. So, I’m like, “Yo, give me about three more months, and I’m graduating.” I am running around school, my senior year, I should be concentrating on graduating and I’m telling everybody, “I’m gonna get down, y’all will see.” And next thing you know, I would say about after a month I graduated, I got on tour with him.

First show was in Nassau, Bahamas, so I was blown away. My first time ever being on an airplane, first time leaving Georgia, so it was definitely an experience. I’m like 18, 19, on the road, touring, having fun, and it was time for the second album, and that’s when Shy D was like, “I heard you produce too.” I’m like, “Yeah, I got beats.” So, when it was time to work on the album, we went to Miami and that’s when I met with Luke and 2 Live Crew, and it all went from there. That was my first song that ever hit nationwide, the first song I ever had a video on MTV, BET, first time I see myself on TV. Came from that record right there, “Shake It.” I was 19.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Not bad. So, you already had the equipment at this point?

DJ Toomp

I was using his SP-1200 at the time. I still couldn’t afford it. I didn’t have my own at that time.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And, from Shy D, you got to work with Luke Skywalker and other artists?

DJ Toomp

Yeah, I produced a song on 2 Live Crew’s album, it was on the New Jack City soundtrack, a song called “Dick in the Dust.” Ya’ll remember the movie New Jack City, right? I know that was big in ATL. But there was a particular part of the movie where Gee Money was riding in the Jeep, and he was like, “Yo, there is this new thing called crack that will make women ‘boom, wham, wham.’” So, this is the song. See if you remember this.

(music: 2 Live Crew – “In the Dust”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

That’s from the New Jack City soundtrack. Explain, I guess, the origins of what that track is, because you have the original here too?

DJ Toomp

The way that came about, Luke caught us in the studio when I was working with Shy D and he was like, “We’re looking for something for the New Jack City soundtrack, 2 Live Crew.” Mr. Mixx, their original producer, had already had his chance with them, he was responsible for 90% of their hits, so they just wanted a new producer for this particular project. So, I started digging through the crates and I came across this, even although I knew Biz Markie used it on… I can’t remember the name of the song. Let me see here. OK. Yes, sir.

(music: Aaron Neville – “Hercules” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, you have this base in soul music and even from your own music and early productions you’re replaying the parts and using that as a foundation of your approach in some respects?

DJ Toomp

When I did that particular song, I wasn’t even into playing keyboards at that time. It was just looping in the SP-1200, and just enhancing the bass and kicks behind it.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I guess after Luke, talk a little bit about what was going on in the early ’90s in Atlanta and a number of different labels starting. It was an exciting time.

DJ Toomp

When I did that New Jack City soundtrack that was around ’90, ’91, so around ’92 – really around ’91, I was still in Miami and started hearing about L.A. [Reid] and Babyface, hearing that he is moving to Atlanta and starting a new label called LaFace. Y’all know about LaFace, right? So, I was still doing my thing in Miami, but at that time that movement started fading out a little bit, and I was ready to expand as far as my musical talents.

So, I decided to move back to my hometown, Atlanta, and it took me a while to really get my foot in the door up there, because they basically had their own producers. They had this dude called Randy Ran, may he rest in peace, and one of the great first people who LaFace signed was Jermaine Jackson and Dallas Austin. Jermaine Dupri was part of the whole movement, you had Organized Noize, which was Sleepy Brown, Rico and Ray Murray. Organized Noize were definitely a great team of producers.

So, it took me a while to get my foot in the door, and the first thing I really put my hands on when I was there was Lil’ Jon and the East Side Boyz, that was his first album. I thought I brought that here but it’s not here, but it was a pretty popular record. So, finally I had decided that I would just create my own movement, basically. I had a sound that I wanted to introduce but people weren’t really feeling that sound at the time but I called it “trap music,” basically.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Even as far back as then you had an idea what you wanted to do?

DJ Toomp

My mission was to come back to Atlanta and get with LaFace Records in some way, form or fashion, either as a producer or just to bring artists to them. So, around that time I discovered and ran into this young guy who was cutting hair in a barber shop, called Clifford Harris, who y’all know as T.I., and he played me a cassette he was working on and I said, “Yo, I think I could take you to the next level.” You know what? Even before that I could play you something that y’all might not be familiar with but I had a hip-hop group called the Native Nuttz.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, the Native Nuttz.

DJ Toomp

I started my own label back in ’92. I had my own label, and I basically produced a whole album, so I can flick through some of that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, so what was the musical approach with the Native Nuttz?

DJ Toomp

The Native Nuttz, around that time, that was when Redman, Lords of the Underground, a whole lot of stuff was going on as far as the East Coast – they was running it at that time, it was crazy. We used to just sit around and watch BET all day, Rap City, that was when Rap City used to stay on for almost three hours. I remember those were the good days; they cut it to an hour now. So, they were basically from the East Coast, and I went into a whole other mode. Basically, I wanted to introduce another sound, because people really knew me for the whole bass movement and uptempo dance, booty-shaking music, so I decided to put a group together back then, the Native Nuttz.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, let’s hear a little something from them just to give a little idea of how things developed for you.

(music: The Native Nuttz – “40 Oz of Funk”)

DJ Toomp

That’s a sound that people didn’t really think I had within me.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It’s ’92, straight-up ’92. The heavily filtered bassline, the echoing horns…

DJ Toomp

There were a lot of Kool & the Gang samples around at that time. We would sample a lot of jazz albums. You know how the hip-hop movement can go, at one point everybody was sampling James and the JB’s, and then it went to jazz and now it’s more soul samples. So, it goes through different eras, you know?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, how did you conceive the trap music sound coming out of all this?

DJ Toomp

I gave that a try. Put it out independent. Matter of fact, some of these tunes are still on YouTube right now. A lot of people are still playing it like it just came out, which is really super-old so there may be a chance I can put it back out. But what I did was get more into playing instruments. Actually, playing my music more than sampling, because I was playing the bassline but it was just a mixture of three different samples combined. Getting them all in the right tune. So, I decided to really get more into playing, and to this day I still don’t know how to read music but I’m blessed with the ears to really know what is in key and what is not. And I started playing around with strings, a lot of different strings and whatnot, and I came up with this sound. I started listening to more classical music. There’s a station in Atlanta called 90.1, where they play a lot of classical music, a lot of symphony orchestras. So that by the time I got to T.I. that is where we came out with the song “24’s”, that was the most popular song, that is what shot his career off.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, when you met T.I. you said he was in a barber shop and he was cutting hair, how were his barber skills?

DJ Toomp

He was pretty good, I watched him cut a few fades.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, if the rap thing didn’t come through, he would have had a good barbering career?

DJ Toomp

That’s what’s crazy though, I know there’s a lot of people in the hip-hop world, most rappers, producers, DJs can cut hair just as well. I was cutting hair too.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You obviously were around a lot of different artists and groups throughout those years, from starting out just after high school. What stood out about him? You kind of brought him out, so what was it about him that you recognized as being a charismatic vocalist that could stand out? Because there are so many people out there who are obviously trying to make it, and only a handful, of course, are going to make it, so what stood out about T.I. in particular?

DJ Toomp

I went through several artists before I just really made up my mind, put all my energy into him. But one thing that stood out from him is that the first time I saw him, his confidence was like crazy, his whole swag. At that time, he was cutting hair, so we were both basically grinding at the same time. But I saw the confidence that he had, and when he played his music his voice, his whole delivery, he didn’t remind me of anybody. He had his own flavor. His whole swag, was just totally different. It was “down South” but he knew how to flow, it wasn’t just a regular A-B-C flow. He had crazy rap patterns but it was still southern, he had a real country drawl with it. So, I took him to the studio, we developed this sound, and the next thing you know, I started playing the demo to different people, and this guy named KP from LaFace, he heard it and fell in love with it. He was like, “Yo, I want to sign him,” so I did accomplish my mission. I moved to Atlanta to get with LaFace Records and he was the last artist to get signed to that label before they sold out to Arista.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, what was the first big thing that you did for him?

DJ Toomp

I’m Serious was the first album, but I don’t have too much from that. But the first biggest song, you might all be familiar with that, it was the one that really kicked everything off.

(music: T.I. – “24’s”)

DJ Toomp

So around that time, when the single was out, believe it or not, that song right there, like I said, the first deal was on Arista but we ended up going to Atlantic. So, what happened, when the first album had faded out, it really didn’t get promoted the right way because – like I said, LaFace was going through its thing at that time. This song right here we put it out on an independent mixtape, and the street buzz was so crazy. It was around the time when the All-Star came to Atlanta, the All-Star game, and we just had the streets so flooded with this particular song and that particular mixtape… We had meetings set up with five different labels just off this one song alone, so that is why I say that is the song really kicked him off. It was responsible for the whole movement to Atlantic. That’s when everything started moving forward with T.I.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, explain for everybody why it is called trap music.

DJ Toomp

The trap is basically where you will go in certain areas, finding what you’re looking for, whether it’s weed, whether it’s anything else, the trap, that’s where everybody hustles. So, it’s the trap. Everybody calls it trap music, it was just the sound, just dope-boy music almost, with the low end. Most of the dope boys in Atlanta, they invest $10,000 on their systems, so they wanted that low-end bass, just the slow, riding music, to a certain degree screwed music. So, it is real low-end, slower type music. So, when I brought that into effect there was only a few artists who could fit with that. That is why I stress that to a lot of producers – when you have a sound that is so new, you can play it to different artists but if they don’t hear it like you’d hear it, sometimes you just got to find that artist who can display that sound to the world. It’s almost like you being a clothes designer and coming out with a certain style of jeans; you have to get someone to get on the runway and wear it the right way and then the world will say, “OK, that’s how you’re supposed to wear those jeans.” He displayed the new style of music that I was presenting, which was trap music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Even in yesterday’s lecture, Mario was saying the Dust Brothers’ tracks from Paul’s Boutique, weren’t going to work for Tone Loc] and Young MC, but they were going to be perfect for the Beastie Boys. So, what are the elements of trap music? If I was to sit here and say, “Hey, Toomp, I want to make trap music too,” what are the signature things that you would say characterize the genre?

DJ Toomp

Definitely some low-end bass that is going to make the speakers rattle, something that can make the subwoofers move.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And how would I attain that low-end bass?

DJ Toomp

I have two different basses I use. I use one as an 808 kick, the “boom, boom, boom.” But then sometimes I might have a solid kick with a real crazy sub, just a real heavy low-end bass. Organs, real high-end sound. Basically, you try to catch every frequency, every chakra. You got the bass and you’ve got the mids, and then you got the highs, whether it’s some type of strings or synthesizer sound. But then, right in the mids, you can have that kick right in the middle. That definitely launched T.I.’s career as far as “24’s.” The video put his face out there, to the point where the whole world knew who he was. But we took it to another level from that album. I was executive producer on the first three T.I. albums – the first two rather. But then the next song that we came out with, which is one of the biggest songs is “U Don’t Know Me.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, let’s hear a little bit of “U Don’t Know Me” by T.I.

DJ Toomp

And this one we were first nominated for a Grammy, see if you remember this one.

(music: T.I. – “U Don’t Know Me”)

T.I., “U Don’t Know Me,” we was nominated for a Grammy with that one. That was the first time. It was crazy excitement behind that song, because we didn’t even think we’ve made it that far on the radar to be nominated for a Grammy for that song.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let me ask you something – at this point, the sound is thriving, the South at the time was making the most noise in hip-hop. There was some regional resentment from people in New York at this time, and afterwards, and people, I guess the so-called purists would say, “Well, the Southern sound is lacking something in perhaps sophistication that we would want to hear.” This is the purists’ argument. So, you being behind this sound, behind some of these records, what do you say in response to somebody who might have had that opinion?

DJ Toomp

Well, we definitely went through it. Do you remember the first Source Awards when OutKast won the first Source award, ’93, ’94? Everybody booed them. The first thing Dre said on the mic, “Hey, man. I hear y’all but the South got something to say,” and you saw what’s happened since then, right? That’s when people used to say, “Ya’ll got the beats, everyone’s dancing, but nobody is really rapping.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

But OutKast gets a pass from people up north.

DJ Toomp

At first, we had hell, that was the beginning, it was kind of hard for a minute. But that was the first thing everybody said – we really couldn’t rap, it wasn’t real hip-hop. I didn’t really let that bother me because I figured I was a hip-hop head, and I don’t want to sound arrogant, but I can basically give some New York people more history on their hip-hop movement than they can, because I actually studied the whole game. I knew it was necessary that I had to pull some real rappers out of the trenches, just to show the world that we can rap and we do have real rappers in the South.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Knowing their history, why do you think that that New York sound fell off so hard and those rappers had a much harder time making successful records and popular records, whereas the T.I.s, the Lil Waynes and Jeezys have really taken off these last several years?

DJ Toomp

One thing I can say, and I’ve noticed this and this goes for the West Coast too, if you think about it, when you speak of the South, you got Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Tennessee, Florida, so you can choose between five different states and in each one of those states, you have different cities and different boroughs and everybody has different styles. So, it’s like a gumbo, you know what I mean? So, there is always somebody new and young coming up. Me and my manager, we used to talk about it a while back. No disrespect, but, “Wow, why does LL keep coming out with a new album? Who is going to be the new young artist out of the West Coast? Who is the new young artist on the East Coast?” And they kept doing the same rappers, over and over again. But when you look at the South there is always somebody new and young coming up, so we always gave the youth a chance to get into the game. I’m like, “They keep trying to bring a lot of these old-school rappers who have had success,” but we always bring out new artists around our way. We always introducing somebody new, from age 17 and “boom,” the next thing you know they’re having a career by the time they’re 25, 26.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Here’s an idea, you tell me what you think. Sometimes, I feel with New York rappers, they don’t necessarily rap – their voices and their cadences aren’t necessarily working with the music. When you hear somebody like a T.I., it’s obvious like you were saying, he is in the pocket rhythmically with what’s going on in the track. I enjoy some records by people from New York, like Juelz Santana and stuff, but it is very much sort of against the music too.

DJ Toomp

I know exactly what you mean. And that does play a part too, because I’ve been in the studio with a few artists, and sometimes their flow will take away from the beat. What I usually use as an example is that you remember on the old cartoons when you see the song with the little bouncing ball that bounces on each word? Sometimes you’ve kind of got to ride like that and that is what keeps it going. When the beat is really going you can bob your head, not just from the beat but the way the rap is flowing and everything. You can still go with the bouncing ball and rap exactly with the beat, and still be lyrical, but sometimes you’ve got some rappers who talk too much and try to put too many words into it, and it’s kind of hard to learn the words to the song when there’s just so many words jumbled up. You can rap faster and the average consumer, the average person is not really catch on to that. It’s a simple flow, and the hook has got to be memorable. That’s one thing I would say we concentrated on in the South. Or not even say concentrate, we just naturally come up with some of the best hooks, which is the guts of the record, the part that everybody is going to remember. They usually learn the lyrics after the third time they hear the song, but the hook is so important.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

We should play a song that I feel was the real major breakout for you with T.I. I think this represents the best of how all this can work and flow together.

DJ Toomp

And he kept a real simple flow on this song. You all should be familiar with this one. This is the one we won our first Grammy, Best Solo Rap Performance of the Year.

(music: T.I. – “What You Know”)

DJ Toomp

And this is where that one comes from.

(music: Roberta Flack – “Gone Away”)

DJ Toomp

I tried looping that sample and it didn’t work. I broke it down on the ASR into like 20 pieces and it still didn’t fit so I decided to just play it all over.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Well, you know, sonically it probably wasn’t going to be the same.

DJ Toomp

Exactly. So, I just had to do my thing to it. As I say, that really cracked the doors open, as far as my career. Of course, it was a big song on the ATL soundtrack, and I can say one of the biggest songs that T.I. has had thus far, so I’d say that definitely boosted his career and my career as a producer.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Is Roberta Flack aware that she is playing a key role in the track?

DJ Toomp

She is definitely aware, the royalty checks and publishing that she is getting. But yes, she is definitely aware of that. I would love to meet her one day and say thank you.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, another person besides T.I. who you did some work with is a gentleman by the name of Kanye West?

DJ Toomp

Well, before I can even get to Kanye, let’s cover the ATL first. After “What You Know,” that was a big record, but at the same time I still had to prove to everybody I could produce more than just T.I. because people had just seen my name with him. And I was like, “I’ve got to produce more people to let people know I can produce more than one artist.” And that artist was Young Jeezy. And this was the song that really blew me up as far as producing with Young Jeezy.

(music: Young Jeezy – “I Luv It”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Was the foundation of that song from a sample or is that something you came up with?

DJ Toomp

I was on the Roland Fantom and I stacked a few synthesizers and stacked a few chords and just took it to the next level. No samples. That was all 100% publishing on that one. Yes, sir [laughs].

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let me ask you something, now that we are onto Young Jeezy here. During the time when he came out he was very fond of saying, “I am not a rapper. I’m a motivational speaker. I am a hustler.” It became very popular with the young rappers to say, “I am not into music, this is just what I do. It’s a hustle. Fuck being a rapper, fuck rapping.” Now, you obviously studied music, and hip-hop was something that captured your imagination, and you devoted your life to it. Did this offend you in some respect, people coming up saying very, very openly, “Man, I am not into it for the music, I’m here just to make money and do this because it’s better than being on the streets”? How did you take to that, what did you think of that whole attitude that was put out there?

DJ Toomp

I could say I did take some offense to that, especially from being in the game 22 years. Instead of just giving credit to the art, saying they are just in it for the finances, and like you said, to keep off the streets. But that’s just a phase that he went through. When Jeezy caught on the first thing people was saying was that he really can’t rap, he really can’t rap.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It was about the “Snowman” image and stuff like that.

DJ Toomp

That’s where he came from. Straight from the streets, and he brought what he went through to the studio and displayed it on his first and second album. But later on, though, he started having more respect for the game, once he started seeing the game had more respect for him. You didn’t really hear him say that too much more after the second album from the success and the love he started getting from all over. Once he started discovering that he was like, OK, you might see a few comments, but he ended up respecting the game a lot more. He didn’t say that too much. I remember he went through that phase. I didn’t really get to talk to him about it, but yes, definitely.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

If Young Jeezy is watching right now than maybe that will spark the conversation?

DJ Toomp

Jay Jenkins, holla ’atcha boy!

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You want to talk about the Kanye stuff or expand on some other stuff?

DJ Toomp

We’ll keep it in Atlanta. After Young Jeezy, I proved myself as far as being able to go beyond T.I. and I ended up getting with Ludacris and this particular song was used on a Pontiac commercial. That was pretty good publishing on that one, “2 Miles An Hour.”

(music: Ludacris – “2 Miles An Hour”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, Ludacris, known for being part of the ATL thing, but originally not from Atlanta. Originally from the great city of Chicago, Illinois. And there is another rapper that you’ve worked with from the great city of Chicago. I knew we’d get to this at some point. Who might that be, who is the gentleman that we’re talking about now?

DJ Toomp

That’s Kanye West. Mr West.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So how did that happen?

DJ Toomp

I can explain. Jeezy’s on Def Jam, Luda is on Def Jam, Kanye is on Def Jam, so what happened, I had two songs on Young Jeezy’s album and from “I Love It” being a big record, I had the attention of LA Reid. I knew he was already aware of me and my work because of the T.I. situation, so LA came to the studio and sat with me for like two hours, and I was blown away by that, just by him showing up in the heart of south-west Atlanta to come kick it with me just to hear my music, and I ended up getting a ten-song deal with Def Jam Records. And I got in and did my thing. So, next thing you know, I would say Kanye got pretty interested in my sound, which I met him when I was working on T.I.’s Trap Muzik because he had two or three songs on there. Kanye pulled me to the side back then and was like, “Yo, I also rap too. Everybody knows me for beats but I rap too.” And I was digging It. I was like, “Yo, you need to keep moving forward on that.”

The next thing you know, I heard about him working on an album. I didn’t make it on the first album and at this time I started hanging out around New York. Me and my partner Bernard, we started going to New York more often. Just then somebody connects, my man Big Jon from EMI Publishing and another guy named Gee Roberson, who managed Kanye, he worked for Atlantic. So, we just happened to be up there on one of our meetings and we missed our first flight, so we ended up having a five-hour layover, so we decided to just kick it in New York for a while. So, when I went to the studio and sat with Kanye, we were playing around on the ASR-10 at Sony Studios, and I put a hot track together within 15 minutes. And, all of a sudden, the screen came up with reboot or whatever. You know, the numbers that come up when it’s an error, and the whole song was just zapped. We were crazy upset about it, so he said, “You know what? I can already see what you do. I can see what you’re capable of, I want to come to Atlanta to work my new album.” Boom!

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

How did that feel, because to that point had he worked with outside producers besides Just Blaze?

DJ Toomp

Just a few, not too many. So, I was blown away that he wanted to come to Atlanta to work with me on his album and the first joint that we put together, and to really find out we had a chemistry, was this particular joint right here.

(music: Kanye West – “Can’t Tell Me Nothing”)

DJ Toomp

“Can’t Tell Me Nothing,” Kanye.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, what’s Kanye really like, Toomp?

DJ Toomp

Kanye is a real good dude. Very creative, and just from working with him for four months straight, I found it was just way beyond rap with him. Of course, I already knew he was a really good producer. But a lot of songs we were working on, he came up with the singing melodies right there on the spot and I was like, “Whoa, this guy has a really great ear, way beyond just sampling.” He can actually sing his hooks. He has a great ear just for melodic hooks and whatnot.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What is that track based on? There is a sample in there, right?

DJ Toomp

The only thing I would say is sampled is, the drums came from another song I did for Young Jeezy called “I Got Money.” So, what we did was take the drum track, slow it down, and put some orchestra around it and had the girl come in and sing and we put that effect on it. A lot of people think that is from a record but it’s not, it’s original.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, in the studio, how long would it take you to come up with something like that? You guys worked on three records together, basically?

DJ Toomp

“Can’t Tell Me Nothing,” a lot of that was done in Atlanta. We ended up finishing the album in New York and the last joint on the album was “Big Brother”. We can talk about that. When it came down to the last record on the album it was like, “Yo, just bring something else.” You know how you ask somebody, like, “What type of vibe are y’all looking for?” And he was like, “Man, just musical, it’s hard to say, just bring something else.” I didn’t know exactly what he was looking for, so what I did was just dug into Propellerheads, Reason, and started putting some stuff together, and I was like, “Yo, let me just pull out something musical that I really won’t do.” I just went leftfield, and when I brought it to the studio and played it, everybody was going crazy over it. But what I did was replay a certain song, but I decided to just go on and change the melody to the point to where we wouldn’t have to clear any samples. I don’t really want to say exactly what I replayed, but all I know is that when we was in New York, it was a Prince record. And when we were in New York, Prince didn’t want to clear the sample, so at the time we didn’t find out until it was time to mix the record. And he called Kanye and said, “I’ll let you use this record but I’ve got to have 100% of the publishing.” Come on, man, that’s how we eat. So, I was like, “No, we can’t do that.” I had two Mac computers and that particular computer that I did that song on, all I did was bring the files to New York. I left that computer at home so what I had to do was fly back to Atlanta and make a new “Big Brother” track. I was up until about seven in the morning and had a nine o’clock flight. I came back to New York with my computer and by the time I got back, that was when Jay Z and the rest of the Roc-a-Fella crew was up at the studio.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, you walk into the room and how are you feeling? You have this track no one’s heard yet, you had to fly it in literally at the last minute.

DJ Toomp

It was kind of funny because I was like, “Man, I hope they like it, I hope they like it.” Nobody had heard it, not even my manager. I was like, “This is it, I’m telling you.” And, so, what happened when I got into the studio, I was like, “Yo, plug and play.” Everybody was rubbing their hands, like, “Let’s see what Toomp came back with.” When I pressed play, I blew everybody away, boom, here we go. Jay Z was there and he heard it for the first time, so there was a lot going on.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

A lot going on also, not only because of the circumstances of you having to go back and make this track after it had been shut down essentially. But this song “Big Brother” is Kanye’s song about Jay-Z, right? And, true to form, he is very personal in the song. So, you actually saw Jay Z hear the lyrics for the first time? What was his reaction?

DJ Toomp

Honestly, he didn’t get upset or anything because it was true. There was a few people’s eyes got watery because it is a real heartfelt record. Like I say, it ended up being the last song on the album, and he really just got it off his chest and they loved it. Jay-Z was crazy about it, Jay Brown was crazy about it, and this is what happened.

(music: Kanye West – “Big Brother”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, when you get presented with the job of doing a song like this, it’s very personal, he’s talking about all kinds of things, sharing things that may make some folks feel uncomfortable because obviously he loves Jay-Z as a big brother, but he has a lot of perhaps resentment towards him in some ways, too, just from the past?

DJ Toomp

I wouldn’t really say resentment but he was just letting him know like, “Hey man, I went through this. Y’all gave me a hard time but look where I am now.” Just like the one part when he says, “Beanie Sigel’s style was more like a slam dunk, but his style was more like a finger roll. But he had them singles, yo.” So, he was basically saying, “Yeah, Beanie Segal was harder but when you look at numbers, hey, there were more women coming to my concerts. He might have been harder but I still stood out.” You all took me through it, because you know at the beginning they were all like, “Man, why is he wearing the pink polos and, ‘Whoomp, whoomp, whoomp’?” But after a while it was, “Damn, this man’s got crazy swag.” So, when you saw where he was coming from with his whole style, he brought his own thing to the table. The only way people could get upset was if he was saying something that wasn’t true, but everything was 100% true. Even me and my partner went through it… We go through it, so to see that he even went through it being an artist and being on Roc-a-Fella that can be kind of personal. When you’re a part of something and it’s time for a concert and you are going through hell to get tickets for someone you been producing three albums straight. It’s real, but there ain’t nothing but love throughout the whole situation. Beautiful.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

When you have the job of creating something behind a narrative like this, how do you go about doing it? How do you figure it in terms of the arrangement? The drums don’t come into it until about a minute into the song or something like that?

DJ Toomp

Definitely. On a song like that you hold back on a lot of the big instruments, because, through it being such a personal record, a personal song, he really wanted to open it up. He just wanted the first words to be heard – at least the first verse so you could feel where he was coming from. It’s more heartfelt. You can get into it. I had to put a real heartfelt melody on there, because the music is straight from the heart. There is a lot of feeling in the song. And, like I said, he wanted that first line just to be heard so that people would know exactly where he was coming from, like, “This is what the song is about,” and you get more into it later, after the beat drops.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You said yesterday when we were talking that sometimes you feel like a psychologist in dealing with the artists. How did you mean that?

DJ Toomp

I’m trying to remember exactly what we were speaking on.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

We were talking about only children in that respect, but do you feel like artists in general…

DJ Toomp

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, that’s what I do. The way that I produce, you got some cats who look at a production as just selling somebody a beat. I’m not in the business of selling beats. I’m in the business of producing artists, and when you produce, when you really produce an artist, it’s way more than just coming in one day and sitting in and going through beats and then, “Yeah, alright, hit the booth.” I want to see what kind of dude you are, tell me what kind of stuff you went through as a kid. What kind of music did you grow up to? What moves you? What do you play in your car? That way, we really get into the artists themselves and find out what experiences they went through in life ¬– that way you can get an idea of what songs he should make. Like I said, that was one of his experiences, and 90% of Kanye’s songs are from experience… When we got into it, while we were in the studio, we got to the point where it was like, “Alright Kanye, you’ve touched a lot of subjects, what we gonna do for the girls? What kind of song can we make for the girls?” We needed something for the clubs, so what we started doing was playing around with some samples, “PYT,” Michael Jackson, I wish I had it in my computer now, I could pull it up, but it this is the song that we won a Grammy. This is my second Grammy, but the first Grammy actually taking the trophy home. I won’t even tell you the title you’ll catch it when it comes on.

(music: Kanye West – “Good Life”)

DJ Toomp

Yeah! You can all tell I’m very proud of that song right there, man. My gosh.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, you had to use the Michael Jackson record “P.Y.T.,” and what did you have to do to it? You had to do something with it, it’s obviously a much faster song than “Good Life” is.

DJ Toomp

We just caught the end part of that. At first, he was playing with it, and was at that time [sings end of record]…

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, Kanye had said he wanted to use something like that?

DJ Toomp

He was just playing with the sample itself. We started in the ASR’s looping it, so I said we should take it up to the original, but keep the same tempo so I timestretched it in the Roland Fantom. Took the sample from the ASR, put it into the Fantom, timestretched it, then put it back into my ASR and chopped it up and put my drums around it. And we kept on going and built up from there, he got that going to the breakdown and back and forth with it and, boom, a masterpiece. First, we had John Legend on the hook as far as singing. Anthony Hamilton even came in. That’s one thing about Kanye, I have a lot of respect for this dude. Whenever he is in the studio, he is going to try at least four different recipes before he just makes up his mind and says this is it. So, from Anthony Hamilton to John Legend we decided on T-Pain.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, T-Pain is the vocalist?

DJ Toomp

Yes, sir. That took it there and we had a masterpiece. We won a Grammy, a big record. And that led onto a few more joints. Opened up more doors once again with Def Jam and, once again, with just getting my name flowing up through the East Coast. And on the strength of Jay Z being there, he admired my work, and he witnessed me in there grinding with Jay-Z and it was like, “Wow, this guy’s a real producer.” I could go back and tell you, even though you all heard this at the beginning, that is what led into the American Gangster record with “Say Hello,” on the strength of Jay-Z seeing how things went with me and Kanye. He was like, “Yo, I want to do it on my album also.” And it went from there. That also raised the eyebrows and opened the ears of Nas, and he was interested in getting some of my productions. So, I went up to New York and kicked it with him for a while. Matter of fact, me and Nas cut about three songs. One made the album, those other two I don’t know, I might use them on my album compilation one day, because they are some great records, unreleased, that nobody has ever heard except me and him. But that led into this one right here. I’ll tell you, this particular joint, I put this together in Atlanta, but it was just one of the ones that I took to New York and he went crazy over it.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let’s hear some of your collaboration with Nas.

DJ Toomp

Here’s the influence… This song is called “We Are Just Trying to Make It” by The Persuaders, old-school group from the ’70s. Check this out.

(music: The Persuaders – “We’re Just Trying to Make It”)

DJ Toomp

Feels great, my God! Just that little piece of the record, I took it and… Nas, “Slave and the Master.”

(music: Nas – “Slave and the Master”)

DJ Toomp

Thank you. Nas, “Slave and the Master.” Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, was your experience of working with Nas much different from your previous ones?

DJ Toomp

It was pretty good, because me and Nas, we vibed on every level, politics to astrology to science to everything. From UFOs, aliens, we talked about all that, man. Spaceships…

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What’s Nas’s perspective on UFOs?

DJ Toomp

He claims he and Snoop saw something in LA about three years ago. He says he saw something that he will never forget, and I have a few other friends that saw some things. I’ve even seen things flying around the air that to this day… there was silver balls, I don’t know what it was, but it was moving faster than an airplane. I won’t go into too many details, but we’ll find out one day. It’s coming. Next thing, once again on Def Jam, here it is, that moved me to this. After the success of “Good Life,” that is when I caught the ears of Mariah Carey and she was working on her album. This young lady at Def Jam, she definitely was a big fan of mine and she wanted to make me do some music on Mariah Carey’s album, so we decided on going up to New York once again and put a masterpiece together. It came out pretty good. This is what we came up with.

(music: Mariah Carey – “I’ll Be Loving You Long Time”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let me ask you something. I guess you worked for quite a while to establish a signature sound. If a producer was to do something like that, how aware are you of staying ahead of that sound once you establish it and avoiding the pitfalls of playing out that sound?

DJ Toomp

Oh, yeah. I’m always stepping my game up, especially when I see that other producers are biting some of my patterns and whatnot. I started getting famous for that ride cymbal, that “ting, ting, ting!” And certain basslines, and when I heard people started putting things together real similar to the point where I started getting calls, like, “Hey, you’re on Ice Cube’s album?”

I’m like, “No.”

“Well, something sounds just like yours.”

And when they have everything to sound really close, I feel like I need to accelerate and just pull off. So, I’m always learning new programs, like I say, I’m learning Logic, pulling out more synths, more synthesizers. Starting to use more live instrumentation, guys who play real strings, real horns, live guitars. I’m getting more into putting a band together, so it is kind of hard to bite what a band does. So, I am always switching it up. Just coming from that era of being a crate digger and loving all kinds of music, Earth, Wind & Fire, The Beatles, the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, there’s a long list. I’ve got a crate in my head, so whatever style of music I want to do, I just pull out a melody from something old, or the arrangement. Like, “OK, I want to use a crazy distorted guitar on this song” – that’s why on “Big Brother” I used that. That came from a Prince influence, just that distorted guitar. So, there are different things that make me really take it to the next level as far as making sure I don’t stay in one spot. Because you can definitely play out easily. That’s why I really don’t put any signatures on my tracks. Most times you might hear a little stamp at the beginning of a track, just imagine before every DJ Toomp track you heard “DJ Toomp!” and then the beat comes in. After a big hit, then the next track there is just so-so, and you hear “DJ Toomp” and people are like, “Ouch, he’s falling off.” So, I’d rather have an element of surprise, like, “Wow, I didn’t know he did that. That doesn’t sound like his regular drums or that don’t sound like anything he would do.” So, I love to switch it up every once in a while. That’s really what it is.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And you want to play before it opens for questions just a couple of things, coming back to the ATL?

DJ Toomp

This year, I guess they wanted to use me for the intros of certain albums, like T.I.’s Paper Trail. I got the first song on the album, which is “56 Bars.”

(music: T.I. – “56 Bars”)

DJ Toomp

Lemme just play one more joint for y’all. Let me see if I have got the right joint. Which one is it, let me see. I am trying to find an original joint, man. Another intro, the first song on Jeezy’s Recession album. I guess I just kicked the door open for his Recession album, which is doing pretty good right now. This is a pretty interesting track, I gave it a real crazy intro because I’m slowly getting into scoring movies right now and I’m getting more and more orchestrated with my own productions. I am about to get my own orchestra too, at least a 10-piece. I can sit up the front there and direct and whatnot, but this is “The Recession,” the title song from Jeezy’s new album. Check it out.

(music: Young Jeezy – “The Recession”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, that’s a little preview of the DJ Toomp Symphony Orchestra, forthcoming. I want to open it up at this point to anybody who might have a question. Please wait for the microphone and, once again, participant questions [only].

Audience member

Hi. Thanks for the lecture. I am wondering with many of the big producers at this time in hip-hop, American hip-hop in particular, are being transformed into their own kind of superstars, Kanye West, Timbaland, Pharrell, all the Neptunes. I was wondering if you are planning the same move yourself or are you going to stick to the old way?

DJ Toomp

Well, what I am going to do is stick to the old way, but still put my brand out there. Most of the producers that you see really, really… the ones that you name are the ones who are producers and kind of like artists. Those are the ones that you see in the videos the most, the Jazzy Phas, the Timbalands, those are producers/artists. I am more just a producer. What I want to do is just stay in my lane as the producer, but put my brand out there and make it as big as an artist.

Audience member

Hi. I just wondered was there like a certain point where you went from being a beatmaker at home and working on things with unknown artists to going to work with the big artists? Did you have a big break?

DJ Toomp

Really the big break was, like I said, T.I., “What You Know.” That opened a lot of doors, because it showed another side of my production. It went way beyond the down-South bass and the drums. It was more musical, and it was more like an anthem and a lot of people wanted that sound. It was a sound I developed and brought to life, and everyone wanted that recipe. So, yeah, “What You Know” really kicked the doors open.

Audience member

Just another thing, if you were to give a young producer one bit of advice, what would it be?

DJ Toomp

Well, study your craft and learn the business. Don’t just sit around and be good at programs. You definitely want to learn the business, that’s very important. You have at least ten books out there to choose from. It’s very important to learn about your publishing, what you should be getting, sync fees – for movies – all your royalties, all that is necessary. If you don’t really educate yourself on the business and what you have to get as far as your residuals, it is really just a hobby, like being on a PlayStation. That’s very important, and I’ll tell that to every producer: learn the business as well as your equipment.

Audience member

Hi, I am from Brazil and I wonder if you know that your stuff in the early ’80s, like the “Shake It” track you played, it kind of had a big influence over the baile funk culture. The beats, all the low bass that you were into, it is kind of the basis of baile funk culture in Rio and are you aware of that? Do you know anything about it?

DJ Toomp

No, you’re the first to let me know that, honestly.

Audience member

Perhaps I can show some tracks, some new stuff and some old stuff?

DJ Toomp

Me and my manager were just saying we need to go to Brazil and see the whole movement.

Audience member

My second question is, when you recorded the “Good Life” track, how was working with T-Pain? How was it working with him and what about his Auto-Tune thing, what do you think of it?

DJ Toomp

I would definitely say with the “Good Life,” I wasn’t there with T-Pain when he did the vocal. That was done on a whole other day and then we came back on the mix. I didn’t know he was on it until about a few days before the mix. We tried so many different people, so I wasn’t sure who was going to be the final guy. I wasn’t actually there with T-Pain doing his vocal.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

And what about the Auto-Tune thing?

DJ Toomp

Auto-Tune is cool. It is a tool, like Roger Troutman had his signature of the vocoder, and a lot of folks confuse it with that and I was like, “No, that is a totally different machine.” I would say I would use it as a plug-in, but to use it as an instrument… I can say it does take away from the element of people really singing for real, because some people can sound good using Auto-Tune in the studio. But when it comes to live it is a totally different sound, like I say, as long as you don’t use it too much. T. Pain took it and that is his signature, so really anybody else that uses it it’s like, “You’re biting off T-Pain.” Even though I heard it on Cher and a lot of people before that. But he took it to that extreme, like, “Hey, I know this is a plug-in but I’m going to use it to its fullest.” So, he did his thing with it. But I don’t like to hear a singer, especially a singer or a songstress who can really, really sing, using it like that. My thing is, “Go back to the microphone, take that off.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Is T-Pain from Atlanta?

DJ Toomp

He’s from Florida.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Have you met him in person? Does he talk through the Auto-Tune in person?

DJ Toomp

[Does Auto-Tune impersonation] He doesn’t do that! It’s cool, he’s cool. He can hold a note pretty good, even without it. But he found it and took it there, and you’ve definitely got to commend him for it because that dude’s got a catalog bigger than most songwriters, and he has produced a catalog bigger in the last three years than a lot of people have had in 20 years. So, you definitely have to give him his props. Besides the Auto-Tune, he is still a good writer, the Auto-Tune don’t work as far as writing songs. He is a good songwriter, so you definitely got to give him his. I just hate when people take advantage of that Auto-Tune. I definitely want to get some good singers back on the block.

Audience member

There is a lot of people using it now.

DJ Toomp

It’s crazy, it’s crazy.

Audience member

Hey man, how is it going? I would just like to thank you for coming because your sound, your signature sound, no one else is doing it at the moment. I only knew you were responsible for “Can’t Tell Me Nothing,” but I didn’t know that you did “What You Know” and “Good Life” and your catalog, it blows me away because the sounds you use are very melodic and the samples you use are very uplifting. Like the Mariah track with the DeBarge sample, I love that loop, and the samples you use just motivate you and really uplift you. I just wanted to know, because you use your samples and the music that you write is very uplifting, which is very rare in the mainstream, who are the producers that you feel at the moment or you just like?

DJ Toomp

Right now? Let me see, let me see. Of course, I am digging – what’s the guy’s name? – Ryan Leslie is a fool, he’s a beast. Crazy. I still like Pharrell and the Neptunes. I really haven’t heard enough from them lately but that sound is just something I haven’t heard anyone come close to it yet. They have their own signature. Let me see, I can’t think of too many that are current, of course. I can name a gang of old-school producers.

Audience member

That is what I meant about right now because in the mainstream you’re the only one that’s got that sound that makes you want to get up and do something, whereas everyone else is just pretty much the same…

DJ Toomp

There is only a few of them out there that I could really say, “Wow, I’m crazy about it.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What about influential ones on you from the past, besides Barry White?

DJ Toomp

From the past, I could definitely give props to Pete Rock, Marley Marl, Dr. Dre, of course, Mike D, J Dilla, it’s a long list, man. Jam & Lewis, Babyface, Rodney Jerkins, it’s a long list, man.

Audience member

I have another one. I just want to know what you think about the whole new sound coming from the South. Your sound really represents the South, but in another way, it is a lot more musical and melodic, like everyone singing and you see producers like Bangladesh with just no music at all, barely. It is just sound, it is just bass. In a way you’re kind of your own man in that field of the whole South? A lot of Southern productions are really not musical they are just beats. So, what do you think about that and are you feeling that?

DJ Toomp

It’s pretty good. With me, there is a few tracks I start with maybe drums and just one other sound, but after I leave things for maybe an hour or so I go and take a lunch break and come back. I just can’t let that beat roll by itself, I got to put a melody or something with it. I figured it lasts a lot longer, just to have a melody. Lots of beat-driven songs, not to belittle the talent and skill, but to me a lot of beat-driven songs after they, are gone you can forget about them. But the melody, I figure, sticks to your ribs. It stays in your head a lot longer than just a beat. A melody, it just lasts longer.

Audience member

What do you think about a song like “A Milli,” which either has people insanely mad about it, or…

DJ Toomp

No, no, no, the last thing I could do is be mad about it, because every year there is going to be a song about like that. Like the Ying Yang Twins “Wait (The Whisper Song),” you got Snoop – what was that? – “Drop It Like It’s Hot.” Every year there is going to be a song that is just beat-driven that is going to blow through the chart, so you really can’t hate on it. One thing that I can say is fun about doing a beat-driven song is that you get a chance to really just mix the drums. You just have drums and vocals, and it does hit harder than the average song in a club, because the engineer doesn’t have anything to mix except just the beats and the vocals, so it is going to come through better than most songs when you hear it a club.

So, I don’t really take anything away from it because most producers that I have heard with those beat-driven songs still can turn around and produce a melodic song at the end of the day. They’re definitely talented producers and, as I said at the beginning, Neptunes, their style was really beat-driven. Then they showed a whole lot of skills and start bringing in melodies like on the record with Mary J Blige. And Bangladesh, he has a few melodic songs, too, and next year there is going to be another one. Every year there is going to be a beat-driven record. I love it, it’s a good thing.

Audience Member

Thanks very much for the lecture. Obviously, you’re in a position now where artists come to you, which is a great position to be in, and you have already told us that what you do is more sophisticated than just shopping beats. However, I think it would be valuable to fill in producers on that mystery point of how you get your music heard by artists. Who are the people you need to surround yourself with on the business side, so that you can have the luxury of just concentrating on doing your art? Who are the people that get your art to be heard by the movie houses, by the sync people, by the artists themselves and the artist managers?

DJ Toomp

A&Rs. Every label has A&Rs, and sometimes you may get lucky and run into the artists, like, “Yo, here are my beats,” but there is a great chance that he might leave it in his car, or he’s riding with his homeboy that night and leaves the CD in there. So, your beats CD is just landing in somebody’s seat and you may have some heat on there, but for an A&R this is how they eat. Walking in and saying, “Hey, I’ve got it.” So, you’re better off giving it to an A& R rather than an artist. It is A&R’s who the artist has to report to when it’s time to work on the album, they are the ones who really walk in and say, “Hey man, I got this beat from this dude.” Where you from?

Audience Member

London.

DJ Toomp

“I’ve got this beat from this guy from London,” and once they see which direction this guy’s going into you might have three of them on there, which may fit the direction where they are going with that particular album. Like I say, a lot of times it’s best to deal with the A&R. That’s the first person I recommend you really give your music to.

Audience Member

How long has it taken you to build up those kinds of relationships?

DJ Toomp

I wouldn’t even say it was a time duration, it is really about being at the right place at the right time. You have different conferences that may come through at certain times that you might hear about coming into your city, which may make a few A&Rs fly into town. The ones that I know travel, they all do overseas traveling and it is best to just do your research and find out who the A&R is at each label. Find out who it is at Def Jam, at Atlantic, all the major labels, get familiar with who the A&R’s are. And once you hear at certain showcases first-hand, they’re going to say, “Well, we have a A&Rs from whatever label,” you will be familiar with their name by that point and you just have that CD, always have it on you, like, “Boom, I’m from England, I’ve got hot beats. Check this out.” Add your information and you will get contact if you got heat on there, I promise you.

Audience Member

And what do you think the appropriate moment is on the journey to get an agent, to get management?

DJ Toomp

Well, the first thing, management usually is necessary, once you see that you are getting it popping. Once you get two or three or maybe four phone calls and people are really interested in your sound, then alright, it’s time to find a good manager. And make sure the manager knows more people than you. He needs to have way more contacts in his BlackBerry than you have. So as far as representation, that’s necessary, once you are about to see that you are going to get a placement. Of course, in the beginning you may not have the finances to get their money up front, but you’ve got to find you an attorney who… First of all, attorneys need to see that it’s a solid placement. Once he sees that, then boom, you may charge $4,500 just for your fee – that may not sound like a lot of money but that $4,500 can become $45,000 or $45 million, if it is a big record. But your attorney can get his money out of that as long as he sees something that is going to go down and the check is going to be cut. You may not have been able to give him his $2,000 fee or however much he is charging upfront, but if he can see that he can get that out of your fee, he will work with you. He or she, it don’t matter. Once it all comes together, you get your fees and if that song blows up, boom, your price goes up. By the time you’re getting royalty checks, you’re getting publishing checks and you may want to stick with that attorney. As you go, you’re going to meet different attorneys and find out, like, “Man, he represents such and such, OK, maybe he can plug me in with this.” Different attorneys have different connections also, so it’s a trickle effect. It can happen in so many ways.

Audience Member

Thank you very much.

Audience Member

When you were talking about beatmaking and those conferences, at every other conference anyone who has a name just gets swamped with shit. They get about 200 beat tapes or whatever and the closest that many people in here ever got to the whole process of shopping was probably watching Jay-Z’s Fade to Black and seeing how people just flick through stuff, not listening to it for more than one or two bars and even get quite a disrespectful comment on the end of it. So, how do you put your tape together, if you shop stuff? And on the same note, most of the people in here don’t really want to mingle and to socialize and play the game and all that stuff. They just want to stay in that basement and do the music. Where do you have to leave it?

DJ Toomp

There is a few DJs I had to pull out of the basement who were crazy and had stupid routines and I was like, “Dude, you need to let the world see that. You can win battles and you could get $1,000 a night touring with groups. But just being in the basement, nobody will see you, it’s just a hobby.” But I’m going to tell you one thing about that “Say Hello,” Jay-Z, we were working on that particular project this producer No I.D. had let me know before I made it to New York that Jay-Z had turned down at least ten other producers. And by the time I got to Jay Z he had really got tired of hearing beats, so he was like, “Toomp, I love what you do but I am only going to let you play three beats, because I’ve heard beats from everybody and I’ve been shooting them down.”

The pressure was there and I didn’t even know it. I played one beat, it was pretty hot. But that “Say Hello,” that was one I really said, “Yo, this is a Jay Z track.” When I was putting it together I was thinking he is going to love this. But often the ones I think are custom-made for an artist didn’t work. That particular one kind of reminded me of the Fade to Black situation because the first joint he was bobbing his head to it, it was alright, but when that “Say Hello” came on he just stood out his seat and started mumbling the hooks. Next thing you know about 20 minutes later he was in the booth, and Guru, his engineer looked back at me with a certain look. I was like, “Oh shit, I’m straight. I got a placement.” But when you are putting your beats together, a lot of times I have heard some producers take too long with intros. Artists don’t like that. A&Rs don’t like long intros. You’ve got to get straight to it within the first eight bars. If you’ve got an intro, save that for after the song gets placed but you want to get straight to it and whatever it was you think is the hardest. If you got ten songs on a CD, your first three need to be monsters. A lot of times you may have your hottest track fifth. If they don’t like the first three they’re not going to make it to the other ones. Make sure your hottest joints are at the beginning in the first few. If you’ve got five, make sure your first two are straight bangers.

Audience Member

Probably using the same example, when there is the scene with Timbaland and Jay Z again, it reminds you a bit of a situation in Jamaica where they’re voicing a dubplate and even though he has got the three hottest joints in the beginning, he kind of staggers it in a way that, “OK, let’s see if he falls for the first one, or am I holding it back?” Is there some sort of drama that you still have to build into it? Or just the hottest shit at the beginning?

DJ Toomp

You just got to bring it. Like boxing, throw the first punch, it has to be a monster. You are competing with so many other producers, it’s a business where everybody is breaking their necks to get on this project so you’ve got to come out swinging.

Audience Member

As a final one on the subject of breaking your neck, any budding professional producer that made it, they have got at least two stories that seem to prove a certain pattern that you at least have to be fucked over twice to really make it up there?

DJ Toomp

Yes, sir. I wouldn’t really call it a nightmare, because when I graduated from high school I didn’t go to college. But I wanted to go to college and learn about the music business. But I ended up learning from experience, which I’m very thankful for. And, to this day, I’m still glad that I went through that mud, go through some clean water. It was the fact that I started at such an early age that I didn’t educate myself on publishing. I didn’t know what I should be getting per track. I was running around Miami with my SP-1200 selling beats for $1,500, but all I know is that each record executive would give me a piece of paper. I didn’t know that was a work for hire. I was like, “I got to sign this to get my check? Boom.” I’m only 18, 19 years old, but I was still making about, in all, I might have had about $10,000 in cash just from selling all those beats within two weeks. But if I would have handled my business, if I had a lawyer or an attorney, ain’t no telling what kind of royalty checks I would be getting to this day from those recordings. Like I say, it was a learning process. Later on, I found out that, well, somebody showed me a royalty check, I was like, “I’ve been producing almost ten years and I never seen one of those.” Later on, that’s when I found out I had to educate myself. There wasn’t really too many people around me I could ask as far as advice on what I should be getting paid. Like I said, I didn’t have an attorney, I was just a young dude who had a talent to create beats. I would say around 1995, that was when I started educating myself on residuals, a book by Donald Passman. Another one by Kashif, Cirocco Jones’ Music Powers, I have a chapter in that one, but it is one I recommend for you people to jump on. But I just started to educate myself on it, on what I should be receiving as far as publishing and royalties. But I definitely went through it. It wasn’t a sad situation but it was a great lesson learned. It was a lightweight version of college.

Audience Member

Let’s say you’re a hot, young producer and you’ve got this beat and you send it to DJ Toomp and he goes, “Yeah, I’ll give you two grand for it, but I am going to put it out as my beat, because I know Kanye and he wouldn’t pick it up if it was yours,” and so on and so on. I mean, a lot of people just go with that, just to get any foot in the door?

DJ Toomp

That happens, but I am cut from a different cloth. There have a lot of people who would take advantage of that individual, who would give them that beat for maybe $2,000. But one thing about it, if you only wanted $2,000 for a fee and I took it, then yes, of course, it would be the brand like you say, and it is good that you’re aware of that. There is a brand of DJ Toomp that that person would be shopping with. But if you looked at the credits of that album, it would say “produced by Toomp and him.” I’m not going to ghost him out, I’m going to make sure he gets his credit and he gets his publishing. He might have got $2,000 front, but if the record blows up, he’s going to get his $200,000, believe that. But you’ve got some people who would give him, like I say, a work-for-hire slip and, “Hey, $2,000, here you go.” He signed it, all he knows is he getting a $2,000 check. But I don’t take advantage of people like that. I make sure that his kids can eat in the future off of that. You’ve got some people who will take advantage of that, “Hey, I got this for $2,000 but I made $2 million,” and don’t even look back. There’s a thing called karma, alright?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Any final words you want to share with the folks here?

DJ Toomp

Well, just as well as you are developing your craft, definitely develop your knowledge and do all your research and learn as much about the business as you can. What you are supposed to receive as far as your royalties, your fees. The starting fee can be about sometimes $1,500, but do not get caught up into that, especially if all your other business is being taken care of as far as you got your split sheet. The minute you record with somebody, you get that split sheet. If it’s not a sample or whatever, you should be getting your percentage of how many people are involved in that recording. You get a split sheet to see who gets whatever percentage so when they turn that in, and that record is successful or becomes successful, you are going to receive your royalties. You are going to receive your publishing. There is an envelope that comes quarterly and you open it and there may be some good numbers in there. But once you see that first publishing check you are going forget all about what that fee was because that’s what really got you into the door.

Some real stuff, straight up, with the “Say Hello”, Jay Z, I didn’t really hit them too hard on his fee. I knew how necessary it was to get my discography up to be able to say, “Hey, I was on Jay Z’s album.” If I was caught up into the price that might not have happened, because you know by that time the budget was already running out. It got pretty low, so my whole thing is that it was more important to me to get on the project than to be caught up with an upfront fee. If I was caught up into that I might not have even made the album.

So, as long as you’re handling your business, the fee doesn’t even matter. That fee raises up after you get a few hits under the belt. But as long as you are handling your business and your publishing and all the other black-and-white paperwork, believe me, you’re covered. Make sure you got the publishing straight and everything, all that is very necessary. Don’t get too caught up into just the craft of making beats and producing music and not handling the business, that is very necessary. I could give you a lot of other advice but I think that is most important. I mean, it’s a hobby but everybody do want to get paid for their work, right? I think everybody do.

Like I say, stay focused. If you put time in and you put your work in, it will definitely pay off. So just keep your ears out as far as who is coming into the city. Like I say, sometimes you can get lucky and get a placement if you just catch an artist at the right time. But I’m going to tell you something else, I can give you some other game, and that’s to keep your relationships with the big studios. If you’ve got a friend who may work at a pretty big studio, where a lot of famous artists come through, he may hit you and say, “Hey, guess who’s in town? Jay Z, Fifty. I’m right here, give me a CD I might just slide it in there.” That does happen. In Atlanta, we got Patchwerk, Doppler, Stankonia, and every rapper you can think of comes through those studios. And you do have interns or maybe people working at the front desk or certain assistant engineers who are going to be sitting with those artists all day.

So, they might just take a break. And Fifty might just say, “I’m gonna take a lunch break,” and he might come back into the studio, and you just happen to have a CD playing, your homeboy has one of your beats playing, and all it takes is him to walk in and say, “Whoa, shit, what’s that?” Boom, you in. Done deal. He’s never heard of you, but he heard that music and you’ve got to be ready to handle your business as soon as that goes down. There are so many ways it can happen. There is more than one way to skin a cat. It can happen so many ways just by putting it in the right hands. Maybe a limo driver happens to be playing the CD with Snoop Dogg sitting in the back.

“Wow, what’s that?”

“Just my homeboy who makes beats.”

“Play it again.”

It happens in so many ways. As long as you’re on top of your business, you can enjoy this business. But it is real easy to get jerked. Once somebody sees that you are naive and not on top of the business, believe me, there are some wolves out there who will take advantage of you. Stay on top of your business, stay focused and keep pushing. It can happen.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Please join me in thanking DJ Toomp.