Don Letts
Where do you start talking about Don Letts? In the late 1970s he was the link between the burgeoning punk and reggae scenes, playing heavy dub records to members of bands such as The Clash, The Sex Pistols and The Slits. Later he went on to become a renowned documentary filmmaker, not to mention part of the Grammy-winning group Big Audio Dynamite.
In this lecture from the 2010 Red Bull Music Academy, he talks about befriending Bob Marley, the DIY spirit that has always fueled his work and why we need to approach our increasingly networked world with caution.
Hosted by Emma Warren We have Don Letts with us on the couch today, the man who was famously the DJ at the Roxy and the original punky-reggae party starter, and also a world-famous filmmaker and documentary maker. He’s going to be showing us film, playing us music, we’re going to be listening to some Big Audio Dynamite, as well as some of the music he was playing back when those cultures clashed. But first of all, he’s going to treat us to something of a reading from his autobiography. Over to you Mr Letts. Don Letts Morning all. [applause] This is just to give you a bit of context and background. (music: Dennis Alcapone – “Shades Of Hudson”) Emma Warren Thunder in one hand lightning in the other. Don Letts And spoiling for a fight, yeah. Emma Warren I think you should take us to your single deck at the Roxy. What was in the DJ booth and what were you seeing in front of you? Don Letts When people look back at things they tend to look through rose-tinted glasses, but to be honest with you, the Roxy was a right shithole. It was a basement, but the thing about these clubs is they really played an important part in the whole process. For a movement to really be a proper movement, you need the music, you need the players, and you need a place for them to congregate and exchange ideas. The Roxy was the very first punk club, and, like I say, there weren’t no punk records, I’m playing dub reggae. What was interesting was white working-class youth really dug the sound. They dug the anti-establishment vibe of the whole thing, somewhat obviously, they loved the basslines, they loved the fact the lyrics were about something; it was like musical reportage. When a man’s singing “I need a roof over my head” or Chant down Babylon,” they could relate to that. The Pistols were singing “Anarchy In The UK” and The Clash were singing “White Riot.” They didn’t mind the weed either. What else was beautiful was there was this interesting cultural exchange. Their music is starting to be informed by what I’m playing. You can hear that in The Clash, you can hear definite reggae basslines, Joe Strummer referencing Prince Far I or Dr. Alimantado. Later on, when The Pistols broke up and Public Image were doing their thing, it was all about the bassline. The Slits, another great example of the punky reggae crossover. What reggae got out of it really was exposure, which isn’t something to be underestimated. Back in the day, it wasn’t that popular a sound, but three things pushed it to the forefront: The Harder They Come, the punk scene and Bob Marley. So, it was a beautiful thing to see these people getting on by understanding our differences, rather than trying to be the same. I’m really a product of what they now call the punky-reggae party, and it really is a testament to the strength of the culture to bring people closer together. Question (points to Emma Warren)! Emma Warren This is like verbal ping pong. You just mentioned three things: Bob Marley, The Harder They Come, the film, and punk. All of those three things are relevant to your musical career and journey. Don Letts No shit, Sherlock! (laughter) Emma Warren We want to talk about punk and we want to talk about The Harder They Come and the films that you’ve gone on to make, but just for the moment, tell us about your relationship with Bob Marley. You went backstage to go and say hello to the man. Don Letts I was lucky enough to strike up a relationship with Bob. Emma Warren Tell us, tell us. Tell us what you were like then, how did you get yourself past whoever it was and up those stairs? Don Letts I was just about to do that, young lady. It was the famous gig at Lyceum in London, the most exciting gig I’ve ever seen in my life, it was like a religious experience. After the show I get in my car – and I’m a precocious brat, I’ve got a bit of lip on me – I get in my car and follow the coach to the hotel in Chelsea. When all the road crew are loading off the shit, I kind of sneak in behind them and sit in the corner of Bob Marley’s room while Bob sits in the middle, holding court and smoking weed, basically burning herb until three in the morning and the sun was rising. After he’d out-reasoned and out-smoked everybody, he turns and sees me in the corner with my little bag of weed. Listen, I don’t want you to think I was selling drugs, that’s kind of old-school and I hope you guys are taking a different route. But this is how it was back in the day. Anyway, I’m smoking my bag of weed and he summons me to the table and proceeds to reason with me, and finish my weed, of course. After that, we kind of had a relationship in that he was staying here for six months and – oh God, here I am again – I was selling him weed. I don’t do it any more. The last time I spoke to Bob we had an argument. While he was in London the whole punk thing exploded, so I’m round at Bob’s in my bondage trousers. Bob’s like [Jamaican accent], “Don Letts, wha’ you a deal with? You look like one of dem nasty bloodclaat punk rockers.” In English that’s: “Don Letts, what are you dealing with? You look like a nasty punk rocker.” [Laughter] He had been reading the tabloid press that had given a negative view, that it was all about nihilism and safety pins. It was never about that, it was about freedom, empowerment and individuality. And he was taking the piss out of my trousers. And I was like: “Dude, you don’t know what’s going on, these are my friends.” And I left telling him... well, I didn’t tell him to f--- himself, I wasn’t that brave. But I walked out of there defending the punks. Three months later, after Bob was somewhat more informed, he was moved to pen that tune, “Punky Reggae Party.” I always figure I had the last laugh with that. Emma Warren What did you talk about? Can you remember the conversation you had at that table? Don Letts Come on! Thirty-five years ago. Needless to say, I was totally taken, and I’m not one for heroes, but I ain’t gonna lie to you… You’ve got to understand what Bob Marley represented to my generation. I’m what they call first-generation British-born black and that kind of rolls off the tongue now. Back in the late ’60s and early ’70s, this was a really confusing concept. There was no blueprint for this social experiment. But we had the music, so we knew what we were supposed to sound like, but there was no visual accompaniment, we never knew the cultural details, we never knew what visually it looked like. Then two things happened, Bob came on the scene and The Harder They Come, the movie, which was a major inspiration for me. That completed the cultural package – not only did it have a soundtrack, it had an attitude, it had a look, it had lyrics. That was very empowering for my generation because we were like a lost tribe. Once I heard Bob, I was tooled up and ready to go, don’t know where, but I was ready. Emma Warren You mentioned The Harder They Come. Had you heard about it before you saw it? Don Letts We knew about it by reputation, but it came to London in the late ’70s, and again, mind-blowing for this lost tribe looking for clues as to what they were about. It was after seeing that film that I decided I wanted to express myself visually. I really dug the way it could be entertaining and informative at the same time, which music does as well. I wanted to express myself visually, but how the hell do you do that? Back then, the movie industry was kind of an old boy’s network. The late ’70s, punk rock explodes, the whole DIY ethic, this energy so infectious you want to get involved; it wasn’t a spectator sport. All my white bredren are picking up guitars. Soon the stage is filled up and Don Letts wants to pick up something too. I pick up a Super-8 camera, inspired by the punk DIY ethic, and started filming the bands. Then I read in the music press: “Don Letts is filming a punk rock movie.” I thought, “That’s a good idea, I’ll call it a movie.” [Laughter] Stuck the shit together, showed it at the ICA. That effectively was my first film, all with the power and inspiration of punk rock. Having said that, once I got through that door, got onto that platform, I started to get my technical shit together, kind of. During that period I formed relationships with many of the bands and went on to make videos for The Clash, Public Image, a shitload more. I’ve probably made about 300 or 400 videos to date. I don’t do that any more because the music doesn’t do that for me, or the people who have the money to make videos don’t... you know what I’m saying? It’s the people that ain’t saying nothing that have got the money to make videos. Anyway, next question. Emma Warren [laughs] I quite like this. Just back to The Harder They Come – you saw that at the Ritzy in Brixton. That film’s important for lots of reasons, you’ve got the look, the swagger, the soundtrack. Don Letts The attitude, yeah. It was basically Jamaican punk rock. Emma Warren Did that film inspire you in a direct way to be involved in clothes and fashion, to have a store? Don Letts No, man. I’m a black man. That’s in my DNA, give me a break! [Laughter] Emma Warren I apologize for the assumption. Don Letts No, it’s in my DNA, that’s in my blood! But it definitely gave you a bit more of a swagger because it was kind of certified. Emma Warren So how did you start playing records? I know you started a shop, Acme Attractions, people started coming down there, it was more than just a shop. The Roxy essentially started as a place for people to go after they’d been hanging out at your shop, and you played records there. Don Letts Sort of, yeah. Emma Warren Was there a point before this when you were playing records at people’s parties or did you start this because of the Roxy? Don Letts No, no, what happened was, because I’m a black man, I started playing records at home. We all did, as a kid playing records I was like everyone else. When I started to run this shop on the Kings Road, called Acme Attractions – going back to how important scenes are, shops were these cultural centers, where fashion and new music movements did emerge. On the Kings Road there were two shops, Acme Attractions and a shop owned by Vivienne Westwood and Malcolm McLaren, who I’m sure you’re familiar with, that all the hip young people looking for something gravitated towards. Now, in Vivienne and Malcolm’s shop, they were a bit more Eurocentric. In my shop, dub reggae all day long. That pulled as many of the customers as the clothes, probably more. Didn’t I just say this in my book? The fact that the owner of the shop saw the response of the customers to the basslines, so when he opened the Roxy he said: “Don, have a go at DJing.” I’d never DJed in my life, but luckily there was only one working deck there, so I guess, I’ve never really learnt. I’m joking. Emma Warren That didn’t stop Shaka. Don Letts Shaka, I think, still uses one deck, but in those days the space between the records was almost as important as the record itself. You could feel the temperature of the room, gauge the climate. So, depending on what I was doing, a couple of seconds’ gap, maybe a minute’s gap, depending on who was bending my ear. It wasn’t about technique, I didn’t have any technique. All I had was taste. In fact, when the punks did get signed up, I’d occasionally drop one of their records in and the punks were like: “Nah, leave that out, Don. Just keep playing reggae.” Emma Warren Some people here will have seen Shaka or someone and have some idea of how people used to play, or still do play, with one record deck. Would you mind breaking down for us how you DJ on one deck? Apart from the obvious answer of putting one record on and taking it off [laughter]. Don Letts You’re gonna hate me now ’cause I’m gonna have to say to you, “Lady, I just told you.” Big gaps in between records, feel the temperature of the room, but basically you just take a record, stick it on. Emma Warren But would you do sound effects as well? Don Letts We didn’t know about sound effects, the sound effects were the people in the room. It was really low-tech, it was all about the selection. To this day, my only talent is as a selector. When I DJ now, I use CDs, I don’t beat-match, I don’t scratch, it’s all about the selection. I appreciate the technique, but from that day to this it’s all about content over technique. Emma Warren That’s absolutely what I was getting at. So, if you’re DJing on one deck, and what people think of now as technique isn’t really relevant – how do you select? Don Letts It’s all about taste. Lucky I’ve got some. I don’t know how else to answer that. When you go and see a DJ, you’re basically buying into his taste and selection and that’s it. Emma Warren What would be a classic first tune of the night in the Roxy and what would be a classic last tune? Don Letts Oh, man. You’re going back now, but anything from Prince Far I, I-Roy), U-Roy, Tappa Zukie, any dubs by a gentleman who’s no longer with us called Keith Hudson. There’s a particular dub album you should get, a classic called Pick a Dub. That would be an end-of-night kind of thing. Emma Warren Do you have something you can play us to illustrate it sonically? Don Letts Sure, I can do that. Emma Warren It’s always good to talk, but it’s also good to listen. Don Letts Is this working for you all? You’re all from around the world. Are there any non-English-speaking people here? Sorry, dude. I’ll come and have a word with you after… Before I play this, there’s a famous book called England’s Dreaming by the author Jon Savage. He said one of the reasons punks liked the reggae breaks between the live sets is that 90% of these punk bands sounded f---ing awful, so when I played some music in between they were really glad to hear some music. (music: Sylford Walker – “Deuteronomy” / applause) Don Letts Kind of strange to be playing at this atmosphere, but cool. Emma Warren Where did you get your records? Don Letts Huh? You really set yourself up. My local reggae shop. This was back in the day when record shops were thriving, and every Friday night you’d get imports from Jamaica, and you’d go in there with your money, if you had some, and you’d sit there, the shopkeeper would be playing tunes, you’d make a little signal – I want that, I want that – and that was that really. The thing to have was white labels and pre-releases. Does that exist anymore? Emma Warren Dubplate culture is alive and well. Don Letts So just your local reggae shop, there were a lot of them back in those days. Every community had one or two shops. Emma Warren And where was yours? Don Letts Brixton, Coldharbour Lane. Emma Warren Was that Blacker Dread or was it a different shop back then? Don Letts Ah, touch me, young lady [touch hands / laughter]. Blacker Dread, that’s right. Emma Warren Now you’ve stymied me by saying something positive. Blacker Dread is a legendary Brixton record shop. Did you... ah, compose myself. Don Letts It’s alright, I do that to all the ladies [laughter]. Emma Warren Tell me about Brixton when you were buying records. Don Letts Can’t we move forwards a bit? That’s so long ago. Emma Warren OK, OK. We’ll leave Brixton and the Roxy for a moment and perhaps we’ll move forwards to your first foray into making music, instead of just documenting it. You made an EP with Keith Levene and Jah Wobble. Don Letts Now, that’s an interesting thing, a little blip on the Don Letts career. Jah Wobble and Keith Levene were original members of Public Image whose first couple of albums, if you don’t know them, get them. Get Metal Box and Public Image, sonically f---ing amazing, totally informed by dub, totally about basslines. Wobble is a really accomplished player now with an amazing body of work, well worth checking out. Back in ’78, they decided they wanted to earn some extra money, because we were all hustlers, creative hustlers, but hustling nevertheless. They’re looking to get some more money from Virgin/Richard Branson, and they blagged some studio time to make a record. They’re in there messing around, having a go at some reggae kind of thing, and they asked me to have a go at the lyrics. So I’m sitting in a toilet somewhere with a mic and trying to write some lyrics, get something together. I said: “OK, I’ve got the shape of an idea, I’ll come back tomorrow to finish it off.” Next day, I don’t hear from them, a week later I don’t hear from them two weeks later, I don’t hear from them, four weeks later there’s a fucking record on the stand. What’s it called? Whatever, they put it out with me demoing in the toilet trying to work out that thing. Emma Warren Steel Leg v Electric Dread is the name. Don Letts That’s it. There’s a guy on the cover of the record with a bag over his head, that’s not me and everyone thought it was. I was so pissed off about it ’cause I’d written some lyrics and it was called “Haily Unlikely” and it was about my conflict with elements of Rastafari. And where I come from you can get some shit for that, but I’m that type of guy, so I did these controversial lyrics, which they didn’t take so seriously because they were looking to make some money. Crap record, which is worse, it’s the biggest defense when I think about it. Could’ve been great. Emma Warren You can tell us something about dealing with those knock-backs when they happen, but what’s interesting is this idea of the tension that comes with being an originator, the tension that comes from someone being the bridge between two communities, two worlds. You very much were that person. The benefits are obvious, but what’s the downside of being that person willing to be the bridge? Don Letts Downside? Emma Warren You’re talking about getting flak from people. Don Letts I grew up in Brixton and I now live in West London, I don’t know if that means anything to you guys. It was a strong black community that I grew up in, and I was always the freak on the block. Might have had something to do with the fact I wasn’t that physical a person, I was always a little tubby if I remember rightly. I was fat, f--- it. And I wore glasses, I didn’t do the football thing, I wasn’t that macho, I’d be in the backyard trying to do experiments. I was the nerd, and I used to take a lot of stick for that, but it was all character-building stuff. I was never into following the herd. I grew up listening to music that was about empowering yourself, that was about individuality, expanding your mind. When I’m growing up I’m listening to Bob Marley, I’m listening to James Brown saying, “Say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud,” I’m listening to Gil Scott-Heron, I’m reading books by the Black Panthers. This shit empowered you, you wanted to do something. The whole Civil Rights movement, going through those things kind of politicized me and made me realize I was going to decide what I was about, I wasn’t going to let society tell me what I was about. It wasn’t like I sat down and thought this shit up, I guess, you’re either made that way or you ain’t. I definitely wasn’t into following. I remember as a kid going to see Marvin Gaye, and saying: “OK, Marvin. You’re the man, you’re great, but what about me? Is my purpose in life to give you all my energy? What’s my role? Surely, I’ve got something to give.” I remember thinking that shit and not knowing where this was going to go. It all came into focus with punk rock. What did you ask me? Emma Warren It was about the tension. Don Letts The tension, other than my black friends laughing at me when I used to walk around Brixton in my punk rock clothes, I’ll be honest, it worked for me. I think people secretly admired that shit. I didn’t need to be blessed by society, I just went down this road, but it ain’t been bad, it ain’t been bad at all. Emma Warren Clearly not. Do you think the music you’ve been involved with, and documenting, is it essentially a political act? Don Letts Ooh! Political? I guess, political with a small “p”. I’m a great believer that you can pollute the world with bad films and bad music, just like you can pollute it with chemicals. The music I grew up with was about changing your mind, not changing your f---ing sneakers, so I believe in the potential of music and film to communicate and change and inspire and push things forward, man. Naive as it sounds, make the world a slightly better place than it is now – and I’ve seen it happen. I’ve played reggae down the Roxy, and made some bonds with people that have lasted to this very day. A lot of the moves you see in the UK now are totally informed by that cultural mix, and lessons learned from the whole Jamaican experience. Emma Warren Specifically where do you see that? It’s everywhere, but... Don Letts No, it’s not everywhere. Emma Warren OK, it’s not everywhere, but where do you see that influence happening today then? Don Letts That’s an interesting question. I don’t know where most of you are from, but in the UK, and to some extent in America, to me the culture has become increasingly conservative. It feels like punk rock never happened. A lot of people don’t want to change the way things are, they want to get sponsored... I nearly shot myself in the foot there [laughter]. You know what I’m saying? They want to be on the red carpet at MTV, they want all that cult of celebrity shit. It’s not that politicized, it’s not making social commentary. Now, it’s about the mass. Let’s be clear – I do know there are lots of young people out there who don’t play by these rules and work outside that framework, and are actually doing something constructive, but it ain’t what you see in the charts and see on MTV. Where is Chuck D and KRS-One? Who are they opening the door for now? It’s Snoop Dogg and Puff Daddy and Kanye West. Why are they opening the door for these guys? Because they don’t upset the status quo, it’s entertainment. But I get to travel, I know there are young people who do operate outside that system, they don’t want what the man’s offering, and they’ve got that attitude, man. It’s out there, you’ve just got to look in the right places. The spirit and attitude of punk, it’s like the force in Star Wars – you can’t stop it. You might have to look in new places, but, ultimately, I’m optimistic. Emma Warren It’s interesting, I remember someone asking Malcolm McLaren a long time after punk happened, how would you be punk now. And he said simply: “It’s easy, don’t buy anything.” Don Letts Consumer power? Radical! Emma Warren Which is really interesting, and Vivienne Westwood has been talking about this recently – not buying stuff. You talked about how making records was empowerment, if you’re a young artist, how do you avoid – because it’s such an overwhelming wave of pressure to consume and this idea that you are what you own, not what you do or create… how would you recommend other artists move towards conspicuous creativity rather than conspicuous consumerism? Don Letts You know something, it ain’t something you can recommend, you’ve either got it or you ain’t. It ain’t something you can buy into or learn. I don’t believe it, it’s either something you have instinctively or you don’t. Good luck to those who want to be on MTV, great. The road I travelled is a little bit harder. I’m not financially rich, but if you look at the big picture and the cards people are dealt on a day-to-day basis, I’m a goddamn billionaire. I’m not talking about cash, I’m talking about something that’s up here [points to head]. I ain’t gonna insult you by saying you should go down that road, if you want it, it’s there for the taking. It might be a little harder, and you might not do all that stuff that others chase. I don’t know how to answer that, really. Does that make sense? Emma Warren I think it makes perfect sense. Don Letts Good, because you ask me things I don’t really think about. I like that. Emma Warren It’s good, because even if it’s instinctive or not, it’s good to be aware of it, because some things in culture aren’t necessarily obvious to you, unless someone thinks about it or talks about it. Even mentioning that you can or cannot choose whether you want be in that world is useful. Don Letts You’ve totally confused me, but to adapt what you’re saying, the only thing you can do is, not even lead by example, but do what you do and like-minded people will connect to that and be inspired by it. But, as regards, trying to teach someone, I don’t think I’m that good yet. Working towards it, but not that good yet. Emma Warren I guess, right now we should go back to some music and a band you were involved with over a period of four albums was Big Audio Dynamite. Don Letts Yep, very proud of B.A.D. Emma Warren And a fantastic band... Don Letts You were probably all too young, you were probably all sperm when they were around. Anyone know Big Audio Dynamite? Nah. Emma Warren You’re in a room full of music aficionados, people who care about music, and are interested in music they don’t know. So perhaps, for the people who don’t know, can you tell us about Big Audio Dynamite? Don Letts It was Mick Jones... do you know The Clash? Emma Warren Of course, we haven’t even talked about any of that. Don Letts Big Audio Dynamite, you should’ve followed it through. Mick Jones’ band after The Clash was called Big Audio Dynamite and our thing was Jamaican basslines, New York beats, Mick’s rock & roll guitar, and me taking care of dialogue and samples. I believe we had the first hit record that was covered in samples, with movie dialogue. This was way back in the mid-’80s, and the whole sampled dialogue thing hadn’t really happened yet. We released a track called “Medicine Show”, which contained over 60 seconds of samples from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly. We used a lot of found sounds and movie soundtracks. I’m not gonna lie. I made four albums with those guys, I’ve got my gold discs, I can’t play a f---ing thing. That’s why Mick got me in the group, we were in a club, me and my bredren Leo, he thought we looked good, that was enough for him. So he said: “Don, join the group.” “Mick, I can’t play anything.” He reminded me that Paul Simonon learned to play bass by putting stickers on the bass. He got round to taking the stickers off. I never took my stickers off the fucking keyboard. When I played live, I held up the keyboard to show the audience, basically letting them know that if they had the ideas and the balls, they could do this thing too. That’s why I came up with the whole sampled dialogue thing. I couldn’t do anything musically, I couldn’t play, but I wanted to contribute, to justify my space in that band. At first, I concentrated on the samples and the dialogue, which I have to say we did really well. But none of the tracks were based on them, it wasn’t like Kanye West, where if you take the sample away, there’s nothing left. It was just like adding salt and pepper. But my real contribution to the band, to me, is the lyrics. People talk about the dialogue, but I wanted to justify my space so I got my lyrical head together, started writing lyrics, and came at it from a film perspective, like scripts or treatments. I think that’s why a lot of the songs have this cinematic quality. I co-wrote, I guess, 90% of the songs on all the albums. The first ever hit single we had was the first song I wrote, other than that stupid Keith Levene thing, it was a track called “E=MC2”. Way before y’all’s time. I’m really proud of it. Emma Warren I think you should play us something. Don Letts A track? Emma Warren Yeah. Don Letts I’ll play you a bit of two, because I am really proud of B.A.D., I ain’t gonna lie. It’s good when you can big up yourself, innit? This is “Medicine Show” from the first album, a good example of reggae bassline, New York beats and rock & roll guitar. (music: Big Audio Dynamite – “Medicine Show” / applause) Thank you. Emma Warren A bit of sampling in there. Don Letts Yeah, you could never get away with that shit now. They’re big movies, movies that were before your time, especially the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns, things like The Good, The Bad And The Ugly. Where you got the samples from was steeped in cultural references, it wasn’t just a sound for sound’s sake. Whose phone’s that? Emma Warren Not mine. Don Letts I was gonna answer it. Emma Warren So, your job in the band was to select the samples? Don Letts Yeah, when the band were in the studio laying down tracks, I’d be in the green room watching movies, actively looking for stuff. It was between that and the lyrics. Because I couldn’t play anything, it was about justifying my space, it wasn’t enough to just hang with the group. If there’s one thing I regret in this life, it’s not learning to play, but I think if I had learned, whoa, with this ego... [laughter]. But, if I could’ve played an instrument and could’ve said: “I want it to go like this,” there would’ve been slightly more equity in the studio. I always felt slightly on the back foot because I wasn’t able to go: “Fuck you, it should go like this.” So ultimately, I wish I had learned to play. It would’ve been better, but God, I would’ve been a pain to live with. Emma Warren The sampling, you co-wrote as well so it wasn’t just finding sounds. But you were one of the first bands to take sampling to the mainstream, so what was your relationship with hip-hop culture at this point? Don Letts Back in the early ’80s, ’81, ’82, The Clash played a legendary 23 shows back to back in New York City, and I was lucky enough to be there to document it all. It’s interesting because just as there’d been a punky-reggae party in London, by the time The Clash hit New York City, punk had already gained a reputation and the hip-hop kids kind of dug the whole DIY anti-establishment thing. Let’s face it, it’s very appealing to young people. Fuck you, let’s do it ourselves. Who’s gonna argue with that? The Clash are playing these 21 dates, the graffiti writers are coming to check us out, The Clash are putting on people like Grandmaster Flash to support them, which went down terribly, it has to be said, Grandmaster Flash was bottled offstage. Funny, to look at where hip-hop culture is now. During that period ’81-’82 they began to form this punky hip-hop party. I’ve done two compilation albums in my life, I might even have one in my bag. There was this association between punk and the hip-hop scene, and this would manifest itself in the whole new wave movement in New York. So again, another culture clash and out of that mix came really interesting stuff. Emma Warren Certainly did. If we link it directly to your stuff with B.A.D., were you interested technically in what the hip-hop guys were doing, finding out how it happened? And how did you find out what they were doing? Don Letts Oh man, if you can imagine watching Grandmaster Flash do the whole turntablism thing back in ’81. Now, you take it for granted, but to see that for the first time, I can’t tell you what a bomb that was. Emma Warren So, where did you see it for the first time? Don Letts Somewhere called Disco Harlem in Brooklyn, I think. I actually can’t remember. I used to hang with a guy called Fab Five Freddy, and he’d take me to these funky no-name places down in Brooklyn and Harlem, until eventually, funnily enough, those guys ended up playing in another club called The Roxy, that was really built out of that punky hip-hop connection. Emma Warren That was Lady Blue’s thing, wasn’t it? Don Letts Ruza Blue, you got it. To see him take those beats and double up on the beat, it was amazing shit. Mick Jones was obviously really excited by it. After he left The Clash, that’s why he formed Big Audio Dynamite, to try to bring some of that mentality to what he was doing. Emma Warren And you certainly did. You were going to play another thing for us. Don Letts I was going to play another B.A.D. thing that was typical of what we did. This is called “Sightsee MC.” Jim Jarmusch made the video for this. (music: Big Audio Dynamite – “Sightsee MC” / applause) Don Letts As I was listening to that I was just remembering when we were putting that together in the studio, thinking, “Damn, how are we gonna take that live?” It was really important to us to be able to recreate it live. This was before the Akai sampler and all that. I had an Ensoniq keyboard that triggered the samples, but I’d be flying in a lot of those spoken samples from a cassette machine, man, live! Later on, we got the Akai whatever it was, but we could do that live. I’m really proud of that shit, I’ve got to say. Anyway. Emma Warren There were really specific challenges around sampling at that time. Don Letts Not to mention not getting sued. Emma Warren There’s always that little pitfall. For people used to working with unlimited memory, it’s hard for them to realize how difficult it was to do that stuff back then, how inventive you needed to be in order to do it. Don Letts I’ve got to say, from my experience necessity is the mother of invention, and it seemed to me that the less you had, the more creative it allowed you to be in a weird way. Lee Perry, all of his dubs were done by bouncing between two four-track machines. That’s how he created his sound. The whole punk rock ethic was always about the idea more than the technical ability. I still believe to this day that a good idea attempted is better than a bad idea perfected. There’s a lot of technique out there but what’s really important to me is the idea. That’s what I brought to the band, because I had no musical training I had no rules, I was like: “Why the fuck can’t we do this?” Emma Warren You just mentioned the fact that you desperately wanted to take it out live. Obviously, we can imagine your audience at the Roxy, but who was Big Audio Dynamite’s audience when you played live? Don Letts I guess, a lot of like-minded people who were also tapping into the cultural movements going on then. The reggae basslines, the New York scene was bubbling, the whole prolific creativity of the UK anyway. Even the whole electro thing, you can hear the keyboards going in there. It kind of signposted the way music was heading. This shit’s from... when is it? Emma Warren 1985 Don Letts So, ’85, that’s not bad. If you look at what’s going on now, the stuff that excites me is about the bassline, the beats, the MC culture is still obviously a predominant thing. It signposted the way the multicultural mix was heading. Emma Warren Obviously, being in a band where some of the individuals were famous in a genuinely worldwide way, do you have any thoughts you could transmit to friends here about how to manage that? How do you keep band dynamics going in a positive direction, against certain difficulties that come with fame? Don Letts Are you talking about internally within the band? Don’t have one, be on your own. It’s funny, when you work with a bunch of individuals, I have this weird theory – I have a lot of weird theories, that’s why you shouldn’t smoke – that all the bands I dig have this magical seven- to eight-year period, then after that it becomes repetitious. If you dig The Clash... you don’t know who I like. Emma Warren Who do you like? Don Letts Public Enemy, Led Zeppelin, Beatles, Smiths, I could go on and on, the Clash, the Pistols. All quite short periods of creativity. I think that’s because, when you’re with a group of people, it’s hard to grow as an individual. So, when The Clash split up, or the Beatles, I actually don’t see that as a negative thing, I see it as part of the creative process. To grow as an individual you have to step out of the confines of a group. I’m suspicious of bands that stay together for too long. There might be some exceptions, some might say The Stones, but you could say their best period was only about that; dig it out, it’s like a seven-year period. U2, I’m not that crazy about them, but you’ve got to hand it to them, they haven’t done too bad at reinventing themselves. Not my speed, but hey. Bowie ain’t done too bad at reinventing himself, but it ain’t about longevity. If you’re lucky in life, you get a window of opportunity, you use it to the best of your ability and then you should f--- off and let someone else have a go. Really. Emma Warren Unless, of course, you’re documenting what’s going on instead of creating it yourself. Don Letts Well, luckily, I was talking about bands. Emma Warren I know, that was a neat segue. Didn’t you see what I did there? Don Letts And I’m autonomous, I don’t have to deal with anyone but me. Emma Warren One thing I wanted to ask you about is a go-go film that didn’t happen. Don Letts It got made, but Chris Blackwell, the man behind The Harder They Come, there was this scene going off in Washington DC in the early ’80s, go-go. Anyone familiar with it? Check it out, if you’re not familiar with it. Emma Warren “Sardines. And some rice and beans.” Don Letts Trouble Funk, Chuck Brown. [sings] “I need some money!” No? Damn, I’m in a room full of sperm. Emma Warren We have some Washington in the house, don’t we? Don Letts Anyway, Blackwell wanted to do for go-go what The Harder They Come did for reggae. Didn’t work. This scene was so hot, so jumping, really percussive. The Junk Yard Band. Anyone know? It was this scene you couldn’t actually get on film. They tried to, and I was involved in the music scenes but the film didn’t work. That go-go scene went on to inform new jack swing, swing beat, and actually got absorbed by hip-hop as well. Emma Warren What I’m interested in, though, is what you can tell us about that go-go world, because you must have been there in Washington in the early part of the documenting of it. You must have seen it with your own eyes. Don Letts Oh, man. It was a trip because these bands would get onstage and these bands ain’t small. We’re not talking four people, more like 40, and they get onstage and they work it, it would be one long jam from like 10 PM until 3 AM. And it didn’t seem like any conceivable break. It was a lot of horns, a lot of percussion, ’cause a lot of the musicians had training in school bands. Call and response was a big part of it, it’s like the audience were actually part of the band. Oh man, go-go, it was such a trip. The film was called [Good To Go], and there might be some bootleg copies out there, there might even be bits of it on YouTube. But the thing about go-go was it was too hot for celluloid, it was almost too hot for vinyl. There are some compilations out there and Chuck Brown, “I Need Some Money,” you probably know it and don’t realize, Trouble Funk, “Drop the Bomb”, Redds and the Boys, long time ago. Emma Warren But that was one of those music scenes that actually made much more sense in the event. Don Letts You couldn’t commercialize it, it didn’t work anywhere else. I think the bands did try touring but it was a strictly grassroots thing. Amazing. Emma Warren I bet. And some nice little tips there if people fancy a go-go journey, follow up on those things. Don Letts Trouble Funk, particularly. Emma Warren You mentioned school bands. Were you ever in one? Don Letts No, I’d have been able to play something if I was. Far too much effort. I was too busy chasing girls and they would run, too, because like I said, I was fat and four-eyed, so I spent a lot of time chasing [laughter]. Emma Warren You’ve brought various bits of footage with you. Did you want to show us something, play us anything? Don Letts I don’t know, do you want to see some? Emma Warren Talk about the compilations. We’re going to hand it over to you guys fairly soon, so you can ask Don some questions. Don Letts Let me show you a couple of clips. This is Joe Strummer talking about the punky-reggae connection. Lights someone, please. Emma Warren A couple more questions from me before we hand it out to you guys. I know it’s a bit like asking which is your favorite child, but which of your films are you most proud of? Don Letts Interesting. There’s a movie I made. This one you can go out and borrow or steal, I’m really proud of it, it’s a thing called Dancehall Queen. It’s a drama, not a documentary, acting and everything. You heard about the whole The Harder They Come thing earlier, and when I first decided I wanted to make a film, I decided to make one about my culture. I was hoping my first feature film would be London-based, and about the whole duality of my existence. That wasn’t to be, but I made a film for Chris Blackwell set in the dancehall scene, it’s got Beenie Man and a bunch of people in it. I actually shot it in MiniDV, which is before Festen. You up on the whole Festen thing? F--- it. OK, I made it on cameras that are this big and it looks great, I tell you. But the great thing is I happened to connect with the culture and the people of the island. Today, if you ask young people in Jamaica what’s the most famous movie in Jamaica, they’ll tell you Dancehall Queen. For me, The Harder They Come will always be the bollocks, the number one film. But for young people, Dancehall Queen is the film about Jamaica. As someone who wasn’t born there, who grew up in this country, I can’t help but be touched by that. I did a film about five years ago called Punk Attitude, and I did that to put punk into context, to show it wasn’t just this weird thing that happened in the late ’70s. It has heritage, it has lineage and it’s the birthright of all young people. If you’re brave enough and you’ve got a good idea, you can be part of it too. Nobody has missed anything, it’s all out for the grabbing. I don’t see too much grabbing going on right now, but it’s definitely out there. Punk Attitude was basically to talk about punk as an ongoing dynamic. Can I show you a clip? I’m really proud of it, I know that when young people see this they’re really fired up, they wanna go out and get involved. Don Letts Thank you. Emma Warren I think that speaks for itself and it’s definitely time for you to ask some questions. Who would like to ask Don Letts something? Audience member What can you tell me about the Lee Perry / Clash collaboration? Don Letts I can tell you that Lee Perry thought it was terrible, that The Clash ruined it. To be honest with you, the track that was released, I don’t know how much of a Lee Perry production that was. It was something the guys had always wanted to do, but the reality was it didn’t turn out as good as they wanted. When you hear about supergroups, and this great guy is getting together with that great guy, quite often it doesn’t work. There are a lot of these collaborative projects that, for me, don’t really work. In most cases they don’t work, why that is, I don’t know. Maybe you need someone in there saying, “No, this is the way it goes.” When everyone’s trying to compromise, it waters down the original idea. I don’t know why, but collaborative ideas… Audience member Was it The Clash’s idea? Don Letts Oh yeah, definitely The Clash. They’d been fans of Lee Perry and Jamaican music, and obviously, when you get a bit of money you pursue the dream. The dream was a bit of a nightmare. Audience member You mentioned earlier when you were in the toilet writing, you had some problems with Rastafarianism. I was wondering what some of those problems were. Don Letts This is about me being in a lost generation, growing up in the ’70s trying to find something that was mine. But it was the extremes, and I think the extremes of any religion are dangerous, because they border on fundamentalism. So, as a young man there were a lot of things I just couldn’t deal with, a kind of religious dogma. It’s not particular to Rastafarianism, in all religions there are extremes and moderates. I remember going down one day to a Rasta church and I took Ariane from The Slits, this white girl with dreadlocks. At first, they were all freaked out that I’d brought her round in the first place. Then we’re smoking the pipe and I passed the pipe to Ariane and they’re all: “No, Rasta, you can’t!” “What’s wrong?” “Woman.” I wasn’t prepared to blindly follow rules that had been laid down for me, I’ll decide what’s good or bad for me. That was it, it was those kinds of dilemmas, it was about not blindly following. Like the man said in the film – interpretation, make it work for you. Audience member A lot of what you talked about stemmed from the culture clash of the ’60s in the UK… Don Letts The ’70s. Audience member The ’70s, apologies. Talking about specific areas, and small communities that came together. For us, we’re all from all over the world, I guess we’re also united by the internet. But it’s rare to find very small communities in very specific places. Do you think that culture clash is happening internationally? Do you think it’s watered down by the internet or strengthened by the internet? Don Letts See, this is a damned good question, really good question. There’s a debate going on right now about the negative side of all these things that have opened up and what it’s unleashed, about the digital age and how it’s shrunk the planet, about how the means of production are now in the hands of the people. Fundamentally, a good idea. But I’m going to say something radical now that I never thought I’d hear myself saying – that art was better when shit was more expensive. I’ll tell you why. Back in my day, a long, long time ago, if you wanted to start a group and you wanted to get a guitar, you had to save up for £100 or whatever, a lot of money to get the guitar, the amplifier. By the time you’d been through that process, it was only the people who really had the determination and good ideas who could do that and actually deliver. It kind of weeded out the people who were messing around, you had to have some commitment. There was pain, there was struggle, there was passion. Affordable technology removes all that. I want to be in a band? I’ll get a laptop, I’ll get Garage Band. Oh, I don’t like that, fuck it, I’ll be a graphic designer. It ain’t that simple, the downside of affordable technology is mediocrity. Just because you can afford it, don’t mean you can do it. That’s what we’re suffering from now, plus this whole thing of information being exchanged like that. It’s homogenized everything. You’re absolutely right, it’s hard to find anything that has that spark of individuality. Do you know who Orson Welles is? Anybody? OK, dude, you look like a load of Quentin Tarantino people [laughter]. I like Quentin. Orson Welles once said, “If you want to make a truly original movie, don’t watch films.” Can you dig it? I think we’re suffering from that thing now, we all know the same shit, it’s all just information, the pain and struggle has been removed from the equation. That’s why I say the culture of the west, for the most part, has become increasingly conservative. What the answer is I really don’t know, man, I figure this shit will work itself out at some point. But for me, at the end of the ’50s, the end of the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, there were these big cultural upheavals. The end of the ’90s that didn’t happen, and I don’t know why. I think technology has got something to do with it, funnily enough. There’s definitely a backlash due, but, man, is it overdue! It feels like it should’ve happened about ten years ago. I think if Apple Mac had been around in the ’60s, McCartney wouldn’t have met Lennon – you know who they are! – because they would’ve been in their bedrooms doing it on their own. A computer is a facilitator, but what’s wrong with a computer is that it won’t tell you when an idea is shit. That’s when you need your human beings. You need that chemical organic thing of people being in a room and sparking off each other. I don’t know how much you can spark off a computer. Audience member It’s interesting that you can have that exchange from the other side of the world, if you choose to. I can communicate with you on the other side of the world, and you can tell me it’s shit from where you are. But there’s no sense of – this isn’t entirely true – there’s less sense of sounds that are very, very specific to a place, even a suburb of London, that come together with other places because we can all listen to things with such immediacy. Don Letts Exactly. It’s homogenized everything, to find true originality is really difficult. I believe that all good ideas in the future will come from the amateur and the naïve – people who aren’t all reading the same book or watching the same TV, do you get what I’m saying? Luckily, I get to travel and I do get to see ideas that are totally original and coming out of totally left of center, and it’s because they haven’t got the internet and haven’t got MTV. Having said that, I’ve got all this stuff, the iPods, the internet, and it has a part to play, undoubtedly, but we need to be pulling the reins, not other way around. I think, I hope, we agree on this. One of the guys who invented this, it might have been the internet, has actually just put out a book that’s looking at all the problems. Not to mention that it’s hard to make money now because everyone’s downloading things for free. Personally, I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with getting paid for a good idea, there’s nothing wrong with getting paid. As long as you don’t f--- anyone else over for it, and you should get paid for your ideas, I think. Audience member When you showed us that film clip, it went into different ways in which modern society still represents punk idealism. Even the internet, but, of course, globalization has bad points, too, such as homogenization, but now people that don’t have like-minded individuals around them have access to people who think like they do. So, that’s a good aspect. One thing the internet has provided that’s beneficial, it’s taken power away from major record labels and people are having more access to independent music because of the internet. The majors have less power, so people might have less access to commercially presented, corporate, pop music. So, in that sense, do you think the internet provides something a little positive? Don Letts Oh, listen, you’re right and he’s right. It has all the potential for all of those things, but the overall effect, it’s like one step forward, two steps back. It did give people the opportunity to talk to each other. But if you look at what’s actually on the information superhighway, half of it’s ego and porn. Technology’s not the problem, it’s the people. Machines are great, people are crap. I said it [laughter]. I’m serious too. I can hear you all. Do we need the mic? Oh, it’s the film, the film. Emma Warren It’s for everybody else in the world, watching it on the internet [laughter]. Audience member On a different note, I make film as well as music. Don Letts Just what we need, more piranha in the tank. Joking, dude, joking. Audience member I recently read a book by an American playwright and filmmaker David Mamet, Three Uses Of The Knife. There’s an interesting correlation he makes about music and film editing and how the bassline in [music] is a lot like writing the plot in a film or script. You’re very bassline-centric as well, so what connections do you see between the broad art of storytelling and time-based art? How do you… Don Letts Correlate the two? Audience member Exactly. Don Letts I’ve never thought about it, maybe it’s a cop-out, but it’s an instinctive, intuitive thing. I know the two enhance the other, and if you do it right, it’s a beautiful thing. Why? I guess, it’s something to do with what we are, human beings complement each other, so I guess it’s capitalizing on that one-two combination of sight and sound. But I’ve never sat down and analyzed it. Even with bass, why does bass appeal to me? Why does bass connect people to each other and, I believe, to the planet? I think it’s something primeval, tribal, but the scientific reason, I don’t even care. All I know is I feel it. I’m not a great one for putting things under the microscope – maybe that’s a mistake, I don’t recommend it for anyone else. I don’t tend to over-analyze, I follow my instincts and to this day they haven’t really led me astray. Even something like punk rock, the more you talk about it the more ridiculous it gets. I’m not sure if I answered your question, but I tried. Audience member I’m not sure if I really had a good question, I thought it was something interesting to discuss. Don Letts What’s really interesting is what you said about Mamet tuning to bass, that turns me on. David Mamet makes some great films. Emma Warren I think we’ve got time for one or two more. I think we had one over here. Don Letts I’ll wait for the mic, even though I’m in your face [laughter]. Where are you from? Audience member Canada. Don Letts Canada. Yeah, we’ve all got problems [laughter]. I’m joking, dude. My next film, you’ve got a thing called North By Northwest. Actually, they’re showing another film I’ve done called Carnival and a charity film I’ve made called Strummerville there. I love Toronto, though. Audience member Speaking of films, you were talking about B.A.D. and how Jim Jarmusch made the video, so how did that go down? I really love Jim Jarmusch. Don Letts He’s the man, he’s actually the godfather of one of my children. He was a fan of the band, and when a song came up, we turned around and said, “Jim, do you wanna do it?” And he did it for us, we were very lucky. But we attracted a lot of interesting people. Rick Rubin remixed a lot of our records. If you’re making the right sounds and doing stuff that’s interesting, you attract a lot of interesting people. We were never that commercially successful, we had a few chart hits here. But, on the college scene in America, we were the bomb. Back then, the college scene was where all the really cool bands broke. You attract like-minded people by being brave and individual. Emma Warren I would personally like to ask you one other thing before we wrap up, and that’s about something that happened the other week. We had you as the master of ceremonies at the Culture Clash soundclash at the Roundhouse, and I’d like to ask you what your observations of the night were. Don Letts Man, that Red Bull soundclash was amazing. Back in the day, that’s how it used to be, you’d rent a church hall or somewhere and the soundsystems, Coxsone, Shaka would all be in the room. I haven’t seen anything like that for about 25 years. It was a very special moment, you had four generations of culture going back to the ’60s, right up to now with the whole dubstep thing. The thing that connected them all was the bassline and it was a trip. You had to be there. These events, it’s hard to talk about. Did anybody go? They just fly you in and fly you out? Emma Warren This is Term Two, that was Term One. Don Letts They filmed it, anyway, and it was interesting to see how my culture, Jamaica’s bass culture, which is their gift to the world has had this impact on places like the UK, to the point of changing this country’s identity. England wouldn’t be the England you know without Jamaicans, West Indians. And – I’d like to claim it all for me – but the Asian community as well, we’ve all had a part to play. The multicultural mix, the people who dig that are the people who are gonna put the great back in Britain. I ain’t gonna lie to you all, it ain’t this kind of multicultural dream. It’s like that in London and a few other cities, but we’ve got troubles, too, same as everywhere else. Right-wing motherf---ers trying to break it up, but at grassroots level in particular, you’ve seen how music culture has united people for the better, and is pushing things forward. I love this city, it’s so creative, and it’s because of its embracing of the multicultural mix. It’s worked for us. Emma Warren I think Melissa Bradshaw wrote a feature for the Daily Note paper about the soundsystem culture here, and made the point that it turned the English people from churchgoing sandwich-eaters into ravers and I think I agree with that. Don Letts Yeah, and a lot of the sonic experiments that came out of Jamaica have become part of the fabric of pop music. The emphasis on the bassline, beats, the MC, using the mixing desk as an instrument, even the extended remix, all that stuff started in Jamaica. If you look at a map and see how tiny Jamaica is, and look at its impact on the world. For a country that has spent so many years under British rule and colonization, Jamaica has culturally colonized the planet, in a strange way. If you know your musical history you’ll know that rap is directly connected to Jamaica and that’s the biggest-selling music on the planet right now, even though it’s not saying as much as it could be, but that’s another story… Emma Warren Are you around for a little bit? Don Letts I’m good for a while, if somebody has a question. Emma Warren Well, that’s it for now, but if anyone does have a question feel free to approach him personally. Don Letts I’ve got a question. What is that funky-smelling thing I’ve picked up? Emma Warren I don’t know, it’s like patchouli. Don Letts That’s gonna ruin my cred, man [laughter]. Emma Warren You come in punk... Don Letts I leave a hippie. Emma Warren Don Letts, thank you very much…
[film: The Clash – Westway To The World]
[film: Punk Attitude /applause]
[Inaudible from audience]
Well, apparently there are other ways, and that I don’t know, dude, I’m too old to be affected. Actually, that’s not true. The same way digital age has had an impact on the music industry, it’s had an impact on the film industry. Earlier I mentioned hustling. I’ve got a little name, I’ve got a little profile, but on a day-to-day basis I’m hustling like everyone else. It’s a creative hustle, but it’s still a hustle. People tell me they’re working in media now, I offer them my condolences. Don’t let me put you off anything, I hope I’m not, I hope I’m firing you up to go out and do it properly.
[Applause]