Efdemin
Hamburg may not be the most famous techno city in Germany, but it was the birthplace for Dial Records, which continues to delight devotees of the less-is-more school of electronica. Efdemin is a crucial component of the label’s nucleus, whose involvement eventually led him to move to Berlin.
In this lecture at the 2007 Red Bull Music Academy Efdemin explained how he first got involved in making music, how his first track bridged the old to the new and why despite Berlin being so “ugly” he succumbed to its charms.
Hosted by Gerd Janson We have with us a handsome boy from Germany who goes by the name of Efdemin.
Give him a warm welcome. [applause] As you know, I always encourage you to ask questions when they pop up in your
mind and not when the session is finished. So please wait for the other
handsome young man in the corner with the microphone. [applause] He certainly deserved that. Before we have a long talk about what you’re all
about, let’s start with one of your tracks to give people an idea what you
actually do. (music: Efdemin – unknown / applause) Gerd Janson So this was one of the first records you ever did. Efdemin Yeah, that’s true. I think it’s about seven or eight years old now and it’s
the only copy I have left, so it’s a bit scratched. Gerd Janson So the pops are not part of the composition. Efdemin No. Gerd Janson But there’s a bit of a story attached to it, right? Efdemin Yes, you can hear some voices in there. At the time, I was a music journalist
for German music magazines and in this record you can hear some of the interviews I did, even some of the harmonies and rhythms are from these interview recordings. I don’t want to say who it is because it’s sampling,
stealing other people’s voices, but they are all Afro-American artists. At
that time I was very influenced by Theo Parrish and stuff
like that. It was the first period of my production. Everything was very raw
and I was checking out how the computer and sampling thing works. It rumbles
here and there. I haven’t listened to it in a long time now, but it’s nice to
start with this one because it’s my second solo production on the label I
release records on, Dial Records. Gerd Janson Maybe you could talk a bit about what Dial is and who else is part of it? It’s
from Hamburg, Germany, right? Efdemin It was founded in Hamburg in 1999 or 2000, we don’t really remember, by
Lawrence and Carsten Jost, and it was all centred around the Golden Pudel club, which maybe some of you know, a very small arty former punk rock club. They had some of
the first house and techno nights there, so we met there because I was DJing R&B and hip-hop and house. I met another guy who they knew, so they made an offer to this one, said, “If you’re tired of making records yourself and doing all the work around it, you can just give us the tracks.” So we got in contact. That was about seven or eight years ago and we all moved. The only one still staying in Hamburg is Lawrence. Carsten Jost and I moved to Berlin
and Pantha Du Prince was also releasing stuff on the label, and he’s living in Paris. Sometimes it’s not easy to decide what we should do next, but we figure it out somehow. Gerd Janson But it’s still almost like a family style. Efdemin Yeah, very much. It’s not a business thing, there’s no plan behind it of what
it should look like or how many records should come out in one year or who’s next. It’s always just that someone’s got a track or has a concept for an album or an EP and we like it, so it comes out. So it can be almost anything. I did a completely different thing on the label, which we can talk about later, something without beats. We had some indie rock and stuff like that,
very diverse. Gerd Janson And it was also very important how the records actually look, right? So there’s always a lot of emphasis on the artwork too. Efdemin Yes, in the beginning we did it ourselves. I did this one myself [holds record up], it’s just like a copy or something. Now it’s always an artist, a friend of ours, doing the sleeve. For example, my album looks like this. This is very typical Dial stuff, my girlfriend did the sleeve. Gerd Janson That’s a nice way to slip in an advert. Efdemin The back looks very simple. I have another one here [holds up another sleeve]. Gerd Janson There was an exhibition once connected to the Dial label. Efdemin Two years ago in the Netherlands, there was a big show of all the artists involved. Anyone who ever did a cover, there were pieces shown by them. It was a very big show in the end, it’s amazing how many different people came together. Then we had a picture done and there were 30 people on it. Even, if it’s only four musicians or producers doing music for the label, there were so many people around it. It’s not just about music, talking about different plug-ins or whatever. It’s very connected to other parts of life and culture. Gerd Janson But on the other hand, you’re also a bit uneasy about always being put in this art context. Efdemin Sometimes it gets too much, but I’m not uneasy about it. We’re four different people and everyone has a different idea of how it should look, what we should do next, what it should stand for. Sometimes somebody’s taking it more over to his side, but I’m absolutely fine with it. Gerd Janson So you don’t argue much? Efdemin No, we don’t argue much at the moment [laughs]. Gerd Janson But sometimes. Efdemin Sometimes, sure, but that’s a good thing. Gerd Janson And you mentioned Afro-American music. How important is that influence for what you’re doing? Efdemin That’s the main influence, I think. What I do is always related to house, which is Afro-American music. After I was listening to soul, jazz and hip-hop a lot, I listened to a lot of house and techno, which is black music. So that’s the main influence. Gerd Janson You mentioned a record that made you start producing music. Maybe you could tell us about it. Efdemin Yeah, this is the first
Moodymann record I bought. Maybe we can listen to it for a second. It the one where he used the voice of Gil Scott-Heron and it’s called "Amerika.” (music: Moodymann – “Amerika” / applause) Gerd Janson So there’s even a bit of your own blood on that record, right? Efdemin That might be from DJing somewhere, I don’t know what happened. Maybe I was biting my own nails. Gerd Janson So is dance something with a political edge for you? Efdemin This is a good question. Sure it is, because it transports so many things. But it’s always up to where it happens, who listens to, what the goal is. This, for example, very much so, but some contemporary records, which people call minimal techno, are they political? I don’t know, they’re just made for taking drugs, going to the club, staying as long as you can. Maybe that’s political [laughs]. It’s a strange question. Gerd Janson There’s no real answer to it. Efdemin What do you think? Gerd Janson It’s not about me, it’s about what you think. I could talk for days about the politics of dancing. You mentioned taking drugs and minimal techno, so maybe we should talk about Berlin. You moved from Berlin to Hamburg? Efdemin After I moved to Vienna I moved to Berlin, about two-and-a-half years ago. Gerd Janson Before we speak about Vienna, the place where you studied, what is it actually called? Efdemin Computer music. Gerd Janson What’s attractive about Berlin at the moment for a young producer? Efdemin I’m not that young. Berlin is a very ugly city, but everybody moves there now because it’s cheap and has a lot of clubs and a lot of galleries and you can live there very cheaply. It’s the place where most of my friends are because everybody moved there. That’s a very important point. It’s not about the clubs so much, but if you’re doing music you have a good network. You have lots of people you can ask for help in productions, get some gear maybe. It’s a good place for me at the moment, but I think I won’t stay there too long, maybe two or three years and then move somewhere else, but I can’t say where. Gerd Janson So why’s that? Efdemin Because, like I said, it’s a very ugly city. I was shocked when I moved from Vienna, it was so strange moving to this city where all the history is cut out and the culture is very inelegant. You don’t have places with history and tradition, everything is new and contemporary and temporary. That’s very nice
on the one hand, but on the other hand it really gets on your nerves sometimes. Gerd Janson And you’re also part of the club scene there, right, as a DJ. So maybe you could talk a bit about what’s so fascinating about the night life, why everybody wants to be there? Efdemin Yes, it’s very special. The clubs open a very long time, not like here in Toronto where it’s finished at two or three. It goes on for days, if you want. You can go dancing for a week or a month without a break. There’s no closing
hour and there’s always a place where the dance continues, and there’s no problem finding a DJ. On the other hand, it’s kind of unhealthy for some people. There’s this new species now, the unemployed raver in Berlin, getting a small amount of money from the state and spending it in the clubs. Gerd Janson Putting it back into the music [laughs]. How important is that for your role as a producer? Is it just like a circus or a zoo? Efdemin No, no, certainly not. There are very good places where you have really intense moments people really listening to the music and they really know about it. It changed my production a bit, having all these people around and all these opportunities to play and to put out records and get in touch with so many people, I focused more on dance music, because before I was always doing other things. But this last year was mostly producing dance music and
playing a lot. I’ve had a very good two years now, but I still go to Hamburg every two months and play and that’s always the best. Gerd Janson Because that’s where all your friends are? Efdemin No, no, they all moved to Berlin. Hamburg is such a nice city and it’s a very special club, not just people listening to techno or house all the time. Gerd Janson Maybe you could play some of the tracks that are a direct or indirect result of your move to Berlin. Efdemin As a contrast to the first record we listened to, we can play a track called
“Acid Bells,” which was one of the first tracks I did in Berlin. It has
scratches because I used to play it from time to time. Sorry. (music: Efdemin – “Acid Bells” / applause) Gerd Janson So it’s pretty rare to be listening to this record while sitting on a couch. Efdemin Yes, never did it before. Gerd Janson What is it, minimal? Efdemin Yes, I think you can call it minimal. Gerd Janson So you don’t have a problem with that whole term? Efdemin No, I like minimal music and minimal techno very much. It’s always a problem of definition exactly what that means, because this term has been overused these last few years. It means a different kind of music from what I referred to and you, too, I think, which was in the mid-'90s, Cologne, Frankfurt,
Robert Hood. Sonically, I think this refers more to that than the contemporary Ableton Live, we call it horse music: this [imitates minimal techno sound and makes horse-riding motion],
which you can listen to for 100 days and it doesn’t really change. This is something that’s very specific to Berlin. You always have the crowd divided into two parts. One side is more into the history of music and likes house music and wants some warmth and the other is, “We want minimal, please play
minimal.” “Yeah, but I’m playing house music right now.” “We want minimal.” I like minimalistic music very much, I always try to get these two parts together because in the end it’s all one thing. But I think the idea behind house music as a form of contemporary techno is a very different one, the function is very different. House music is very direct and sometimes storytelling and touching and always has this soul reference. Minimal music is very functional, keeping you awake and it doesn’t matter if you play this track after that one or before. Gerd Janson Yeah, but how important would you say are drugs then to this kind of music? Do you think it would have this success without the whole thing, the other thing, attached to it? Efdemin I don't know. It works very well with drugs, but techno always did, and maybe it's important for the scene, but for the music, I don't know. I know a lot of people listening to this kind of music without taking any kind of drugs or alcohol or anything. Gerd Janson There might be some, yeah. Efdemin Yeah. I think it's more how the music is consumed then in the end. And how long you go then. That is the difference. Some people don't really go... It's always been like that I think, but maybe now it's a bit more that people don't go to a club because of listening to the music but more being there and something is going on like the constant beat and then in the end you ask, "How was the DJ? I didn't make it there." "I don't know him," you know, because Carl Craig was playing or something. That's very typical Berlin I think. Gerd Janson That it doesn't matter in the end? Efdemin Yeah, for some, yeah. Gerd Janson What exactly were you doing at Vienna Computer Music? Or what is computer music? Efdemin Computer music is a very freeform kind of study in the [has brief exchange
with interviewer in German] University Of Music And Performing Arts. It’s a very small institute, which was founded in the '50s, coming from the idea of tape music and musique concréte, Pierre Henry. It wasn’t really into the idea of serial music from Cologne, like Stockhausen, but very much into exploring the noise. Over time, computers came in and this institute was the first besides the Ilkom to have this software, which is called Maximus P, which you could see on the screen. That was the first institute teaching this, but now everybody has a laptop and the question is what is the institute for? But only ten people a year go there, exploring their idea of music and noise. But what I did was get into the software [gestures to screen, which shows software] and the idea of graphical programming environment for music and you can do whatever you want with that. I was working on this idea of beatless music, like drone music, and I produced it all with this software and did some installations for specific sides and in the end I put out this CD, which is like an overview of this time. Maybe we can listen to a piece but there’s really nothing going on. But I think this institute is going to be shut down very soon because they don’t like it anymore, the University Of Music doesn’t like these computer music guys. Gerd Janson Why? Efdemin Because it’s always too loud. They do two concerts a year in this big concert
hall there and it’s always too loud for them. Gerd Janson Just because it’s too loud? Efdemin They have this very conservative idea of playing the viola and we shouldn’t
use any computers or something. Gerd Janson Do you have any classical music education? Efdemin Yes, I played the cello for a time but I quit. I’m very sorry about that. If I could choose now, I think I would still play cello and be part of an orchestra. Gerd Janson Can’t you just pick it up again? Efdemin No. I still have the cello and play from time to time. Parts of this are made with the cello, but only as a sound, something I use for sampling. Which one should we listen to? This one. (music: Efdemin - unknown) [That’s] an example of what I was doing during my time in Vienna. At the same time I was working on this sequencer, which is programmed in this
Maximus P thing. Gerd Janson So you programmed it yourself, right? Efdemin Yes, that’s an older version of it because I didn’t use it for a long time
because my friend and colleague Oliver Kargl, who as a DJ calls himself RNDM, we
have a project called Pigon), which is based on this software. We met in Vienna and I showed him this thing and he
was completely freaking out about it, he loved it. Since then he’s always playing with it and asking me if I can please add a new envelope or whatever. He has the new version of it. I just brought it with me so you could see it.
We did tons of recordings with it because you can only record, you can’t save anything and then reopen it. You really have to do it instantly and then, if you like it, record it. Gerd Janson But there’s no way to recreate afterwards? Efdemin No, that’s the idea. Every time you open it you start from scratch, so you don’t have your special rhythm that you always use, you can’t use any midi. It’s only a small sample library but we can change that. Even playing live with it sometimes it was fantastic, sometimes it was absolutely super-shit. You never know what’s going to happen, it’s really up to you whether or not you have a good day. But this is the first record we did with this program. Maybe we can listen to it for a second. (music: Pigon - “Auf Und Ab” / applause) If you want to listen to another record we did which wasn’t done with this software, but done with Cubase and sounds completely different, very different music.
Shall we? Gerd Janson Yes. Efdemin The software and instruments you use for production have a very big influence on the music. This is a good example of that. Gerd Janson Couldn’t you just have used Ableton for this thing we just heard? Efdemin Sure, but it would’ve sounded completely different. This one has a compressor
on the inside, which is always on the master. If we’d used Ableton we would’ve reopened it several times and changed it until it was perfect maybe. Gerd Janson So the idea was to make some sort of live take. Efdemin Yes, exactly. This could be done with Ableton too. [starts and stops music] Sorry, that’s the wrong side. (music: Pigon – unknown / applause) So you don’t like your tracks short? Efdemin No, I don’t, it’s always a bit longer. Gerd Janson Is it made that way with the DJ in mind or is just the way you approach it? Efdemin It wasn’t made that way, but now, since I DJ more I changed a bit, I think. But I actually don’t like that because I like it when tracks contain three tracks and develop and are completely different at the end to when they start. Something I think is really fascinating, if you’re listening to old tracks by Theo Parrish, it’s always three or four tracks in one. Sometimes it sounds like they’re reversed, so what would normally be the first theme is at the end. It’s very strange and you have very big developments. If you play them, you really have to play the whole track otherwise they don’t work at all. Gerd Janson Is that something that influenced you a lot? Efdemin I think so, because I was listening to it a lot. But you can’t compare us,
because he is up there somewhere [points upwards]. Gerd Janson Maybe you could explain the sequencer to us a little bit. Efdemin This one? It’s very stupid, it’s simple. Gerd Janson Shall we change seats. Efdemin It wasn’t my plan to talk about that too much. Gerd Janson But I talked you into it. Efdemin Like I said, it’s super-simple. [demonstrates on the screen in the auditorium] This is really an old version: you have two parts. Do you see the mouse? [audience replies ‘yes’] This left part is a very simple 16 step, the
sequencer in this version is, I think, either seven or eight, where you can load samples and if you load them into the buffer you can choose one and it shows it up here. Then you can decide how long you want to play it. Then you have an envelope here going over it and here you decide how the rhythm should
be. It’s a very simple drum machine because you miss all the functions of a good one, like shuffle or longer steps. You can’t do 32 steps, for example. But then you can record small loops and load them into this right side thing and play loops from that. This section is very old, it was meant for singing.
I was recording my voice, but then I didn’t like my voice and didn’t use it anymore. But you can play any instruments in there, then I made some delays down there. You can load some VST plug-in there and this is the very cool
compressor because it makes the special sound, because it’s very heavy and what comes out in the end is always a bit rectangular, I think. Gerd Janson How long did it take you to create that thing? Efdemin How long? I can’t really say because it was a work in progress. I started it four years ago and haven’t done anything on it in the last year. The main work was maybe about a month, sitting and playing. It’s always the main work, sitting and playing it, because you play, then you realise, ‘Other programmes
have this function, how does that one work?’ It’s made of several things, I can open one of these. This is what is behind, it looks like a
Reaktor or something. This is always changing, every time I open it I think, "Ah, something is wrong and it must be corrected." Then I change it and something gets affected by that and it
doesn’t work anymore. If I have the time, I will continue with it because I plan to finish it and do a version everybody can use. It’s a bit like Fruity Loops or something, it’s very simple, it restricts you, you can’t do
everything. I think it’s like the opposite of Ableton Live, where you can really do everything so quickly and you don’t really have to… For me, Ableton Live is a very cool program but it’s too much for me because you can do everything in a second. Then I can’t decide what I want. Gerd Janson So you like to be restricted? Efdemin Very much, yes. I’ve started to buy drum machines now and outboard effects and
it’s really cool. You can concentrate on one beat, which is really good,
rather than having everything at one time. Gerd Janson So how do you think this world of endless possibilities has changed the current music? You said it’s quite important, the stuff you use effects the result you get. Efdemin I decided to use Cubase most of the time for my music, because I’ve known it for so many years and you can do a lot of things. But it’s also a bit more work than Ableton Live. You can’t just stretch everything and have it all fit and it’s always the right tune, mouse bounce and that’s it. I think maybe the whole development of the music is very interesting because there have never been so many records coming out as there are now, so many different labels and artists. It’s dangerous at the moment because the distributors are slowly
dying because there’s too much music coming out and with the MP3 distribution it’s changing. Maybe it will develop into two different markets: one for vinyl and one for all the other functional music. The music you keep for one week then throw away because you can’t play certain tracks anymore. So maybe it
will be two markets. I always try to do music that is lasting, not just for one special moment or some hyper mode. I want something I can listen to in five years. It’s funny, listening to that old record I was thinking it’s not that well-produced, but it’s still the same music as I do now. Gerd Janson But isn’t the feeling more important than the way it sounds? Efdemin Absolutely. Software is just a tool to express what you want and you have to put your soul into that software. With this thing it’s really hard to get something soulful out there. Gerd Janson Maybe you could just demonstrate it, just the basics. Efdemin I don’t know if it works because it’s the wrong soundcard. [music starts] This is just a silly loop, I just did in two seconds. Like I said, it’s Fruity Loops in the end. I can’t play around with it so much right now because it’s the wrong soundcard and this interrupts it. I didn’t bring it with me. Gerd Janson But this is some sort of soul then, the mistakes? Efdemin It doesn’t sound good, it’s all [makes horrible noise], I’m sorry. Gerd Janson You talked about the way distribution dies out or changes and two markets. But do you think the effort of making a piece of vinyl and doing the cutting and the mastering and maybe re-doing it because something goes wrong. Would this still make sense if you’re only selling 500 copies from your perspective, as
someone involved in a label? Efdemin We don’t sell so many records, 500 is not a bad number [laughs]. It’s not
about making money with records. That is an important thing for Dial Records, too. It was never about making money, having a masterplan and making number one hits. If it’s selling, well, then it’s… Gerd Janson By accident? Efdemin Yes, by accident. Some people only sell 100 records and put a lot of soul in
there. That’s OK. But what’s so different between mp3 and vinyl? This piece of music [holds up record], if it’s not burned or thrown away, it will be there in 100 years. I have so many old records from the ’20s. The time really writes itself in there. Every time you play it you have scratches. Sometimes you can’t play a record. I have records where I know that there is a scratch in the beginning, and I can only play it from that point on. There’s history in there, and I remember where I made the scatch. Mp3s will be gone when the computer operating systems are different or you have a different file system. All of that will be gone. I think this continues. I like how they smell. Gerd Janson And how they taste? Efdemin The taste of vinyl is very good. It’s very poisonous, by the way, but this one you can see has been used a lot. Gerd Janson This is a record by Photek. Efdemin Yes, it’s Photek. I brought it with me because there’s a housey track on there
we could maybe listen to. Gerd Janson Is everyone familiar with Photek? Efdemin You said there was somebody doing a drum & bass lecture tomorrow. Gerd Janson I think tomorrow morning,
Makoto, right? Efdemin I don’t know which one it is, we’ll have to check it out. (music: Photek - “T'Raenon (Version)”) This is Photek and it’s from ’96 and it’s called… Can you read it? Gerd Janson I would say “Return,” but it’s not “Return.” Something like that [shows sleeve to participant]. It was always hard to read the labels on drum & bass records. “T-Raenon” by Photek. Did you just buy it because of that house track? Efdemin If I go to Hardwax. Gerd Janson Which is a record store in Berlin. Efdemin Yes, a very good one, they specialise in dub. They were the first ones in Berlin to stock this dubstep thing. Sometimes I buy it, but if I play it it’s always, “Oh, he’s playing the same as Ricardo does.” Gerd Janson Who’s Ricardo? Efdemin Ricardo Villalobos, he’s the one who played it in techno for the first time. Gerd Janson He introduced dubstep to techno, you’d say that? Efdemin Yes, I’d say that. But I think it’s very interesting music, I like it's a strange
tempo, always a bit too fast or too slow. I never know which tempo it is because it sounds good on both, which is very interesting because house records usually only sound good on one tempo. But, for example, Photek records you can always listen to on 33 too. Gerd Janson Any questions? Audience Member [inaudible] Efdemin Maybe both, save time. She put it on the Panorama mix CD, but I don't know if she was the first one to play it. Gerd Janson Maybe Ricardo slipped it into her record bag. Efdemin Who knows. Audience Member You said the MP3 file format will be dead in a few years. Could you explain? Efdemin Maybe, I don't know. I don't hope so, but maybe it's a different format then, and... Then you can't read MP3 anymore, so you have to re-buy it like when you had tracks on CD. In 10 years, will we have a CD player? I don't think so. Maybe in 10 years or 20 years, you can't read an MP3 anymore because it's way too big for your computer or something. I don't know they'll have different formats for that. I think it's a very... As I, as everybody who works with computers knows that you lose data all the time. I think it's the same problem with MP3 because somehow your hard disk dies or you buy a new computer and you forget to transfer it or something. It's a very clever idea and I like it very much, but it's very different if you think of it as something to save the music for the future. Gerd Janson Eternity. Audience Member Some of the music you played was pretty ravey, especially that [inaudible] dance one. Where did you get your rave party experience? Did you go to France or something? Efdemin No, I started going to clubs very late, and my most intense rave experience was Richie Hawtin playing in Hamburg in, I don't know, '97 or something. It was a time with his 808 and 909 and decks things... Gerd Janson It's like a mix CD or something? Efdemin That was a mix CD, but he was performing live with drum machines and records and it was very minimal and very hard at that time. Gerd Janson Of course it was minimal. Efdemin Yeah, but I loved it totally and that time I got really absorbed into this harder thing and started to explore like Jeff Mills and all that stuff. I didn't want to... I didn't go to clubs so much when I was 20 or something. I was always a bit afraid of that, and I was more into punk rock and stuff like that I think. Now, I go to clubs more and more, that's a bit strange. Audience Member What clubs in Berlin? Efdemin Which clubs? Yeah, I don't know... Gerd Janson Anymore questions? You made yourself clear then. So before we go to lunch, a last record? Efdemin Yes. I don’t know the name, actually. I like this one so much. Something about records, when I play them in a club I just look for the blue one, I don’t look for the name. Gerd Janson So you never DJed with a laptop? Efdemin I did, but it’s very different. I don’t like it so much. This is a Theo Parrish record and I’m going to play the dub side. Gerd Janson And it’s called “Dance Of The Drunken Drums.” Efdemin Thank you. (music: Theo Parrish – ”Dance of the Drunken Drums”) Gerd Janson Sounds almost like a weirdo trying to do a dubstep record. Please big up the
man called Efdemin.