Herb Powers Jr.

Gerd Janson

The gentleman here on my right is Mr. Herb Powers. He is, I believe the correct term is, a mastering engineer.

Herb Powers Jr.

That’s correct.

Gerd Janson

So, we’ll hear a bit about mastering techniques, loudness wars and how to make things sound better. Please afgive him a very warm welcome.

[applause]

Herb Powers Jr.

Thank you.

Gerd Janson

So, before we get into frequencies and dBs and all those technical things I don’t understand, let us talk a little bit about you. How did you get to where you are now, and how did it start for Mr. Powers? You were born and bred in New York City, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes, I was born and bred… [laughs] Born and raised in Harlem, New York, actually. So, I’ve been here pretty much all my life. And I always had a love for music. And I’m sure that everyone in the room has a love of music. I see some faces here that I even know and I know that they do, definitely. I always wanted to hear music wherever I was at. Whether that was in stores… And in Harlem at those times, the 45 record was really big. You would leave your house and go to the corner and there would always be like a record store there, and they’d play whatever the hit was of that week. And it always was a question to me, “I wonder how they make them? Where did the records come from?” And I didn’t think about it too much, but actually I did, because my father was in the business also. He worked for, it wasn’t called Sony then, it was called Columbia Records, red label. And he was in the studios and occasionally, very occasionally he would let us come down, me and my sister. It was, it was a good thing. [chuckles] And you would meet artists, they’d be recording, and I wasn’t exactly sure if that was the path that I wanted to take, but it seemed like it was gonna work out that way, so um…

Gerd Janson

And what was he doing there? Was he a mixing engineer?

Herb Powers Jr.

No, his job primarily, he was what they call “quality control.” I’m not gonna say my age, but I’m getting really old. [laughs] But I’ve been in the business myself for like over 35 years. But, let’s just put in this way, in his day, back in the day, everybody, and especially a company like Sony, everybody had their own job. If someone brought these turntables [points to desk] in, they had a union guy to actually hook up the wires. ‘Cause I went there couple of times now and I’d be like “Oh, let me place the speakers,” and they’d say, “No, don’t touch that, we’ve a guy for that.” So, his job was actually quality control of the studio. So, any records that came out of the studio, they would take it it to his office and he’d actually have to check them through a microscope, and listening for any flaws. And if there were flaws you can bounce them back and ask them whoever was the mastering engineer on the recording to redo it for whatever the reason is. That gets really technical and I will not bore you ‘cause everyone will be going [snores] really quickly. But… So when I became a mastering engineer, I became one of his biggest clients ‘cause I kept screwing up. [chuckles] And he was like, “Herb, you know better than this.” And I was like, “Yeah, well.” My philosophy became “A great record is not a safe record.” And then I got this name where they call me “Pump,” “Herb Pump Powers.” You know, with other names I don’t really want to say. But you know…

Gerd Janson

But how do you mean, “A great record is not a safe record?”

Herb Powers Jr.

When you’re listening to music, I always feel that… OK, I’ll go back to the first story. When I first got into the studios, one of the things I noticed, I was DJing, and I’m not gonna say I was a great DJ, I was a okay DJ. But I was doing a lot of DJing in a few clubs, a lot of mobile DJing, and I just always noticed that records themselves, to me, did not sound that good. I thought they sounded okay, but I would always play with the mixer, and I was like, “I gotta get a little more bass in this, and I wanna get a little bit more of this in there, I wanna get a little more of that.” And so, as I was listening to them I said, “You know, I want to find out how this is done.” So I went to Sigma Sound, that was a studio that was on 54th Street, I think it was, the Ed Sullivan building, and then I went upstairs and there was Frankford/Wayne, and I realised that’s where they make the actual records, you make the actual acetates. And it was true, I realised after being there that there was a lot of technical stuff that could be done a little better. It took a lot of time, and it took a little more energy but that’s basically where I got the idea that, “You know what? I really want to get into this business and I really want to do this and be in this studio, and be a mastering guy,” because that was the last stage before it hit the street. So you can actually say that the studio work is, of course, super important. You have to record, and then you have to mix. And back then mastering was important because it was to get the actual vinyl records. [laughs, gestures to desk] Which, there’s a few of ‘em there. Of course, it’s changed nowadays because, and I’m going to sound old now when I say this, is the CD, which a lot of people don’t deal with anymore, and then now there is the file systems. But mastering is still needed because sound of things from different things… Say, on the album, you might have mixes from, say, five different studios with many different producers. Some of you guys might even be producers, and let’s say, [gestures to audience] he’s a producer, and she’s a producer, and they are all on the same record. They are gonna have different views on how things sound and even where they are done at, so my job would be to kinda congeal it so it sounds like one concept. You keep the flavor of each producer, but you still want it to have a certain concept and a certain flow. And that becomes one of the main things of mastering right now.

Gerd Janson

And before we get to that, is there an actually formal education, to become a mastering engineer? Do you have to attend a school back in your days? Or how did you get into it?

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, back in my day? No, there was no formal school that I know of. I kind of got into it by just getting coffee and, you know, being the runner. Actually, the interesting thing about it was, at Frankford/Wayne, it was such a regular place, almost, if you want to call it that. I actually built some rooms. It was like, I was in one room and I started in this room about the size of maybe behind here [points behind the interview couch], squared. Just very small, and it was just a couple of tape machines, and I learned how to edit. And it was editing with a razor blade.

Gerd Janson

Instead of a computer mouse?

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh no, no. No computers. There was no computers. I don’t even think the Tandy computer had came out yet, and IBMs [early personal computers] were still like, that was when Bill Gates said, “No one would ever need over a gig[abyte].” [laughs] You know? Back in those days. It reminds me I bought my first gig back then and it cost me like a thousand dollars. [laughs] For a gig of space. And I say that, I’m gonna say it again, back in the day I bought a gig of space and I was the man. I had a 17” screen, and I had this crappy IBM computer, and I used to do all sorts things on it, and a gig of hard drive space was over a thousand dollars. And I’m gonna get back to why I say that now. But remind me, because sometimes I forget these things.

Gerd Janson

I will. Yeah, the razor blade thing?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, but anyway, we actually had to cut tape with a razor blade and I was practicing in the room for a while and you realised, if you screwed up, you really screwed up someone’s master. So you really had to be good at this. And it took a while, it took an actual while to learn how to cut, learn how not to mess up the tape, learn how to what we call “overlay” the tape. [mimes overlaying] So that you put one piece of edit, it’s marked, over top another piece of edit. That way, if you did screw up the edit, at least it was a screwed up piece that it would match. [laughs] You know, ‘cause if you cut ‘em separately, the angles might be off and you will hear that. So I mean, it was many people that I learned through and with, and it was just a great time. We were actually in the studio and an actual session would go a long time because we would actually sometimes have ten reels of half-inch tapes or quarter-inch tapes, and back then everyone just kept recording. So it was like, “OK, we’ve got hours of music, let’s make a seven-minute song.” So, you know, especially some of the bigger DJs, they would do that. And then we come out with the song at the end of day and it’d be like, “Wow! We did that.” And you’d just watch those edits go by…

Gerd Janson

So, you were not only involved in the actual mastering process, but also the edit?

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, I was in editing. And then, from there I went into a mastering room. I actually went into a mastering room and still wound up editing. [laughs] You know, it was like, most people wanted you to edit because they got comfortable with you. So you would keep editing, and mastering. And mastering a record then was a very linear thing, because when you’re cutting the actual vinyl, once you start you can’t stop. So, the singles were pretty simple because you would have one EQ for it. Maybe. But in an album you might have, it went on like this [points to desk] EQ one, EQ two, EQ three… So, for song one you have this one set up, for song two you have that one set up, for song three you have that one. This is if you, if your place had money. If it didn’t, you might just have one and two. So, here is song one, here is song two, here is song three, here is song four, and as the song faded, you would jump to this one and then it was almost like a show. We would be standing there and people would go like, “Oh, look at him work.” You know, because it was like, “I’m gonna jump to this one, change the levels, go to this one…” And we weren’t storing on any tape back then, because you didn’t do that, you did it real time. So, if you messed up, you messed up to the side.

Gerd Janson

Which cost money, again.

Herb Powers Jr.

It cost money. The owners made us pay for it. The client will look at you like, “Herb, man, I wanted to go on my date and go get drinks and stuff, and you’re still doing it!” [laughter] So, you tried not to mess up ‘cause if you wanted to get out, or everyone wanted to go to club that night and actually spin it… And so, you’re sitting there and just trying to get the side done, and it took a lot of thought. It really did, and that’s why people used to call it the “voodoo art,” because to fit 20 or 24 minutes, or even 15 minutes on one disk and get it right, it’s an art, you know, and you had to make sure that the disk after the session was done and didn’t skip.

Gerd Janson

What’s the time limit to a side, to still have it sound good?

Herb Powers Jr.

Honestly, I’d say 20 minutes. And that’s why, if you remember, most albums in old days, were four songs per side, maybe five. And the average album was 40 minutes, maybe 42, or 44, you know, stuff like that. But then when the CD came out, albums got longer, and in some senses albums got filled with a lot of filler, because everyone was like, “OK, we want all these songs because we’ve the space.” And it’s cool, you know, ‘cause it’s all creative stuff. [laughs] But, back then it was… That’s other thing in the mastering room, the producers would come, the artists would come sometimes, and it became a thing of, “What song’s not making this album?” Because if you had 25 minutes, 26 minutes, I’m thinking, “Eh, it ain’t gonna sound good.” And when you say that it’s like, “OK, OK, we’ll take a song off.” Because the level would go lower, you’d have to turn down the bass, ‘cause bass takes up the most room on the record. So, you were configuring the record for the format. Also, what a lot of people didn’t know with the vinyl back then is, as you went in the diameter, like the third, fourth song, you lost top end. So, as it was recording we would add some top end to it, through the chain. It was called “radius EQ” because of the way a record works as it goes in, you actually lose top end as you go in. The problem, and here’s something that happened… CDs got a very bad rap in the beginning. I’m kind of jumping ahead on this one. CDs got a bad rap because when we were recording, we used to record to reel-to-reel, the EQ of the vinyl. The CD didn’t need the vinyl EQ with the extra high end. So, when the CD first came out, and this is true with any new format, it’s the stepchild, if you wanna call it, of the business. And they’re like, “Oh, just make the CD out of the tapes that are there,” because they didn’t want to spend money on it. And so we would do that. I never liked doing that, I would always try not to and they would sound pretty bad, the CDs, the original ones, because of having a sound that was made for another format. And I would say that was probably the first thing that gave the CDs, straight out of the gate, its bad rap, you know? I mean, there were other things, it was the new digital and nobody knew how to really deal with it, because it was a totally different animal. You didn’t have compression from, and I don’t want to go too technical because I know some of you guys might be technical, but some of you might not be as, but you didn’t get the tape compression naturally that you got with analog. And with the CD it just was, what you put on it you pretty much got, especially if you went to a higher sampling rate.

Gerd Janson

So it needed different treatment.

Herb Powers Jr.

Exactly. I mean, of course, I’m going to say this, I’m sitting here with everybody… I was one of the guys who was the first ones who gave it different treatment.

[laughter]

Yeah, I said that. [laughs] No, but in some senses I was because I was actually trying to make ‘em sound better. I like new formats when they come out, to see what they’re about. To me, formats are a new way of expressing the emotion of music. And it’s all about the music, that’s what everything is really about. It’s not really about a format because a format technically is a storage medium. So it’s almost like you take a picture. A picture is an image of something that happened. This is an image of something that we heard.

Gerd Janson

But, you know, [waves a sleeved vinyl record] that this is like religious to some people, almost.

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh I know, I know, I know. [laughs quietly] So, you know… It was funny, I was on a panel once. It was a TV show, and this was way in the past, it was when CDs were newer, and it was about the difference between vinyl and CD. And for some reason they put me on the CD side and we were having a debate. And the only reason why I won the debate… Well, I could’ve won the debate but I didn’t wanna, because I love vinyl. I didn’t wanna say things, and plus it was for the FX channel or something like that, and you couldn’t get technical. But I won the debate, really, because I had said to the guy ‘cause he was like, “Oh, I’m gonna go home and I can’t wait to get home and play this new vinyl I have.” And I said, “You know what? I’m going to go home in my car and play it in one minute.”

[laughter]

And everyone’s like, “Ooh, yeah.” [laughs] And see, nowadays I can say, “You know what? As you’re talking I’m just going to plug my headphones in and put it on here and I’ll be good. You go home and wait ’til you get home and then your neighbor’s gonna tell you, “Turn that down!”” Yeah, that was like one of those little deciding factors. But no, I love vinyl. The problem with the vinyl, and I guess it’s a problem with a lot of things, is, [points to desk] this turntable… This is cool, I never saw one with the gold on it! It has to be set up right, you know? This [lifts turntable arm] should be balanced. You know, you see pictures sometimes and they have pennies on it. And we would take the acetate, which has no grooves, so it’s like a pure lacquer thing, and put it on it and if the needle shot this way or shot that way, then you know the arm is imbalanced. And that means that you’re putting more weight on one channel than the other, so you’re not hearing it right. There’s so many things about that that get very technical. That’s why all these buttons are here you start spinning and people are like, “Oh!”

Gerd Janson

And the weight, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

And the weight, yeah. But you have to get that right to extract the best out of that, and then also you have to get a good [stylus]. This is a Shure. That’s cool. It’s not a V-15, but it’s alright.

[laughter]

And see, then you get like, “Oh, OK, he’s just bourgeois.”

[laughter]

You know, he’s gotta have that super cartridge in there and then…

Gerd Janson

It’s already golden, you know?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, I know! And then the DJs, of course, couldn’t have those types of cartridges because they were…

Gerd Janson

Back queuing.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, back queuing, and you might drop it on the needle, and so these weren’t as compliant as the high-end ones. Because we actually had turntables with the Shure V-15s on the lathe. We would actually be cutting the record and playing it back at the same time and A-Bing them, and it was so close. And you know, it was funny, you would go into a store, and I never tell people what I do, even what I know or who I am.

Gerd Janson

Except for today.

Herb Powers Jr.

OK. [hides face]

[laughter]

No, but anyway, I just didn’t do that because I just wanna hear what people say, and you want the salesman to tell you something, and then they would. “Oh, this cartridge sucks,” and I’m like, “Really?” And, like, “Yeah, you should hear it.” And I’m like, “OK, I’ve heard it.” I don’t say that but you know it’s like, “OK.” Then they tried to sell to you something and it’s like, “Well, you know what? We actually have the lathe that actually makes the record and we’re actually playing them back,” and we pop different cartridges, pull the headshells off… “Try this one.” [pulls a face] “Ohh, that don’t sound right.” Put another one in, “Oh, doesn’t sound right.” You can see the frequency response of each one and actually see what really sounds like the lathe, because that’s what it is. Again, it’s that picture. If you could get a picture to look as clear as possible, like high-def, or something like that, without much artifacts or a picture of sound to be as close to that studio performance, that’s what the goal is. You know, that’s what we’re always looking for in all the gear, because then some guy is getting into the wires and this and that. It’s so many little nuances, it could get crazy, you can’t worry about it all, but in some degrees you do.

Gerd Janson

Should we listen for a minute to some of the records you made back in the days, because your name is also very much attached to like New York dance music and the rap music in the ‘80s, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

Sure, yeah.

Gerd Janson

So you wanna pick one?

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh, OK.

Gerd Janson

Should I?

Herb Powers Jr.

I just picked this one up because, believe it or not, it’s my first gold record. Well, it was the first gold record I was given. [laughter] OK, scratch that. [laughs]

Gerd Janson

You have to explain that now.

Herb Powers Jr.

[laughs] ‘Cause the record company will be like “Herb, why d’you say that?” [laughs] No, it was the first one that I was given. A lot of times back in the day, you know, if you say that a record was gold, then nobody wanted to necessarily admit it, because that means that the pay more royalties. [laughter] I think everybody will know this record. Why is this record running off-speed, though?

Gerd Janson

It’s running off-speed? The lights are not in…?

Herb Powers Jr.

I don’t know. OK, who’s the DJ now? [laughs]

Gerd Janson

There was one in the back.

Herb Powers Jr.

I know. [laughs] I’m not gonna say nothin’!

(music: Afrika Bambaataa & the Soulsonic Force – “Planet Rock”)

[comments over music] I know you guys are probably listening to this and saying, “Wow, this is old.” But when I first heard this, it was like, “Woah, this is cool. [laughs] How’d they do that?”

[music fades] You know, the funniest thing is, I never thought when this came out that it would actually be as big as it was. I knew it would be big, but you know, you never know when you’re listening to music how it’s gonna play out. You’re like, “OK, this song feels good.” Then after you, I guess, pick enough of them, people realise, “Oh, he must really kinda know what’s gonna hit.” Maybe I should’ve been in A&R.

[laughter]

Gerd Janson

Maybe. But you did pretty well with mastering.

Herb Powers Jr.

[laughs] Yeah, I did pretty good with the mastering.

Gerd Janson

Yeah, this one is “Planet Rock,” by?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes, “Planet Rock” by the Soulsonic Force. I got a gold record for that. And it’s one of the few gold records I have that is actually the record. That’s something else that people don’t know. Gold records are made, they’re really just the stampers, or the mothers of records that are made. But they’re not necessarily the actual record. So if you were to break the gold record… Why would you do that? But if you were to break the gold record and pull it out and play it, it’s like, “Ooh, that’s not the right record,” you know? It’s really bad when the label says five songs and it’s four, and you can see that, and it’s like, “Oh, that really sucks.”

[laughter]

But most of the time they try to get that right. [laughs] But this one is the real gold record that I have and it’s like, it’s like, I keep it out there because there’s very few like that. You know, I used to put a stamp on there and a smiling face.

Gerd Janson

So, to get a gold record as a mastering engineer, you have to make sure that your name also appears on the record, right? In the credits because it’s not common for every label, especially these days, to point out the mastering engineer anymore.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, that’s true.

Gerd Janson

So how do you make sure that that happens? You had, you developed a special technique also, right? In the dead wax.

Herb Powers Jr.

What you talking about? Oh, in the dead wax! Yeah, I used to always write something in there, and a lot of times the artist or the producer would ask me to write some more stuff. You know, crazy lines.

Gerd Janson

For instance?

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh, what does this say? [lifts record from turntable] OK, see, you going to make me have to get my old man glasses. You might write something like, “It’s pumped,” or, I would always try to come up with a crazy line. Like, if it was the Soulsonic Force, “Planet Rock,” you might say “It’s rocking.” You know, just corny stuff. Actually, this record has my wife’s name on it and it also says, “It’s a hit.”

[laughter / applause]

Thank you. So yeah, I should have did A&R. [more laughter] It says that stuff so I guess we kind of knew right when we were doing it that it was a hit. But yeah, I have that, and I have the “Herbie and Junior,” and the smiling face. But we always tried to write something a little unique, sometimes about the record. Then we used to get really crazy, and this is the thing about it, when you write on the first record that you actually cut, it appears on every record.

Gerd Janson

It’s also a way to distinguish between the original from a bootleg.

Herb Powers Jr.

Exactly, there you go. And also, because what sometimes happened back then, records would sometime be sent like to Sony or something and they would just make extra copies. And some guys would want to get the first one that maybe I cut personally and you could tell that if I didn’t stamp it or write something that I didn’t do it. I can’t even see this that good anymore. But I used to be able to write in it and then write extra big so that you’d see it like in two grooves, but if you hit the groove itself, you just blew the record, so you have to write inside of the groove, so, you know so had this little scribing tool, and you had this whole little system of not touching the record. Because that’s the other thing, if you touched the record, if you accidentally spit on the record, if you blew on it, it went on every record. So the original record had to be perfect, you know? It’s almost like clean room. Not quite, but we tried to be as close to that as possible.

Gerd Janson

With white gloves?

Herb Powers Jr.

No. [laughs] But your mentality was that. They would almost say that the mastering guy was, excuse me everyone, but, anal, you know? Because… But it’s par to the course, because like I said, you could see, if you look at the record, [holds up and points to record] this space, the music stops about there, [points] and the space, because this is only a seven minute song… But if you went past there to the label, then the record would be finished and if you went up one dB more in level… [rubbing record edge between fingers] See I’m trying to get this spot out of here… If you went up one dB more in level, you might run out of room. And that’s why you had to make sure your room was perfectly aligned, everything was set up right, because if it wasn’t, you could lose the record. And this happened every day, like I said, then you had to pay for it, everyone’s waiting for you, and the day’s getting longer, and you’re now on the tenth hour…

Gerd Janson

So, you don’t miss cutting records these days? You don’t do it anymore, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

No, I haven’t done it in a couple years. Do I miss it? Yes, I do, I do. Sometimes I… And who knows? I might get back into it, ‘cause I hear that it’s making a resurgence. [laughter] Yeah, I definitely could get back into it, and it wouldn’t be on the cost-effective thing, because it really isn’t about that. It’s about coming back with something that is loved, ‘cause it’s not going to be cost-effective, so that has to be kinda thought about in the whole chain of events, and everything nowadays is about being cost-effective. And that is what almost killed the business, or did kill the business, if you want to say it’s killed. I don’t know if you want to say that, but it has been through so many things because of that.

Gerd Janson

And would you recommend an artist to attend the mastering session, or better not, from your experiences?

Herb Powers Jr.

That’s a two-sided question. [laughs] OK, I would always say yes, but I would also always say no. And I go back to the cost-effective thing. There are so many people that I know, and we could come in and it would be great if they’re there, because they could tell me exactly what they are looking for and then we get to work and we just get it done. But if someone comes in, and they’re going to spend a lot of time, you know, because… When you walk into a studio, here’s the interesting thing; technically, you don’t know the room as a artist, or maybe even a producer, unless you work there a lot. So you might have in your head how you want something to sound, especially a mastering room, a mastering room is even a little different than a studio. And since you don’t know the room, unless you brought like, say, ten songs with you that you know really well, you’re not going to understand what’s going on there, necessarily. So you make judgment calls that might not be right. So you might not get exactly what you’re looking for, so you’re really leaving it up to the engineer anyway. But if they’re there and they do know the room, hey, we’ll have a party, it’ll be great.

[laughter]

Gerd Janson

And how do you deal with it if the artist attends the session and wants you to change some stuff, that, speaking from your expertise, you would have to say, that’s not a good idea. Do you let him know, or do you…?

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, yeah.

Gerd Janson

Figure he is a customer so…

Herb Powers Jr.

The way that I normally work is I would let them know. I definitely would let them know. Only because I would say that… Of course, everything is tactfully… One of the best ways is to play other music for them, and then let them hear what they are either asking for too much of, or too little of, and then they make the decision. And then, even if they still want to go with that decision, the bottom line is that it’s their creation. I am just the engineer trying to give them their picture. If they said that they wanted to have it where it’s… [speaks through hand for garbled effect] Fine. If that is what they really want, I would say I wouldn’t do that and give them a whole bunch of reasons why I wouldn’t do that. But if that is what they want, it’s not my record, it’s their record, and it’s their picture that they have in their mind and I would go with it. Probably say, “Don’t put my name on it,” but…

[laughter]

No, I wouldn’t say that. I would definitely go with it because, again, it’s their picture. It’s their concept, it’s their idea, it’s their vision, and I’m just there to make it with the best fidelity I can. Again, I would caution on what probably should be. Just so that it was said and everyone’s on the same page. And you know what normally happens? What does happen a lot of times, they come back and they say, “You know what? You were right. We’re gonna go back home, can we just get…?” I just say, “Sure. I didn’t throw it out. I have your way, and the way that I think is better, we’ll just go back to that.” It’s not even about that. I mean, I have been doing this too long, and I’ve listened to too many systems, and… That was the other thing that I was in love with, I was in love with just hearing speakers, hearing systems. I would go to clubs, I used to go to the Garage, to the Loft, I used to go to this club, that club, the Studio 54, smaller clubs, just to hear music in them. You get perspective of things. And then, the other is also going to concerts and hearing what they sound like, and hearing, you know, it’s beautiful, what instruments sound like. My daughter plays flute and sax, and sometimes piano. And it’s like, “OK, I just want to record you really quick.” And, “No, don’t record me!” “OK, no I’m going to record you real quick,” and so I’d record her, just to hear how it’s coming back, and just to get the idea of an instrument. And the more you put that in your head, and teach yourself how things sound, the more you’ll be able to make that picture again of how it should be. And then, you can go and do the “pump thing,” you know?

Gerd Janson

Your thing.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, that’s my thing. And make it just a little bit bigger. And the reason I say a little bit bigger, it’s like, nobody wants to see real life. You know, I got a little zit here and a little this there, so you know, you Photoshop it a little bit. “Oh, this shirt’s not orange enough. OK, let’s make it like really pretty orange.”

Gerd Janson

So you put make-up on records.

Herb Powers Jr.

You could do that!

Gerd Janson

Or on music.

Herb Powers Jr.

You could do that! You could do that. You know, very lightly, and that’s happening in mixing too, it’s a whole process. The whole process is to get it so that when someone hears something, it’s an emotion. You know? And please, everyone remember that. You’re producers, you’re artists, you’re engineers… This is about an emotion. This is about a feeling of music. I think sometimes we get away from that. And the other thing which I’ll say, and this is what I said I remember I said it, I’m not that old, about the hard drive. So I spent a thousand dollars for a gig. The reason why I say that is, ‘cause I always like to ask everyone, and this has something to do with mastering, as far as I’m concerned… In the audience, how many people have like iPhones and iPods, and whatever, iPads, whatever? Everyone, I’m sure, everyone has something, even if it’s not an Apple one. Now, I ask this question, and I guess you all guys are here for a reason, this is why I’ll say it, how many of you guys have MP3s on it, that are like, just regular MP3s? OK. Ya’ll need to throw ‘em out! And I say that only because you’re training your ear to hear substandard. And, it’s almost like, this phone has all WAV files on it, at least 16/44.1. iTunes will open at 24, you can put it right in, I’ve done it many times. It might not what they call dither down properly, but it will be better than a MP3. And when people say space, I don’t wanna hear it! I said that reason why, I paid a thousand dollars for a gig. So when I have 32 gigs or you get 64, I don’t want to hear that, 4 or 500 dollars. Buy the gigs, and put good-sounding files on it. Because this is what we do. This is what we listen to. The MP3 was made for the producer, really, to send the file to someone just to get an idea of what the mix was going. That was it! It was like, “OK, I need to email this,” because back in the day, no email would let you go past 3 or 4 meg[abyte]s, you know, you couldn’t put it in an email as an attachment. So it was like, “OK, I’m going to send you this quick thing of like the first minute of it. Tell me what you think of the mix, am I kind of in the right direction? OK, cool.” They put this farce over us, I’ll never forget when the Apple computers… I’m not dissing Apple, I love Apple, sometimes. [laughter] But they would say in iTunes, “Oh, you’re changing your parameters from whatever, so it will ship at 128 or 190,” or something like that, MP3s, and that’s what they were saying. And then you had the commercial on TV saying, “You can go all around the country three times and never hear the same song twice!” Well, you know what? Hear the same song five times, I don’t care. But make the files at the best resolution you can. It’s the only thing that matters. The only thing that matters is to get the file, just like Hollywood is trying to get the pictures as good as possible. The music, in my opinion, what has happened is, we went back to worse than 8-track. We went back to worse than cassette in what we’re listening to because we have the technology to have full-res, and good sound, but everybody’s listening to substandard. And it became the state of the art.

Gerd Janson

It became a hit?

Herb Powers Jr.

It became a hit. You know, and it’s not necessary. Because, like I said, until gigs go back to a thousand dollars, then I’ll take that back, you know? But then I’ll say, “Do ‘em at least at 320,” [laughs] you know, or something like that. But that’s my biggest concern with nowadays, when the CD goes away, unfortunately… Because I talk to a lot of young kids who aren’t in the business that just, you know, just my kids’ friends or something like that, and they’re like, “Oh, MP3s the greatest thing.” And I’m just like, “Oh, God!” I say, “Come in the studio and listen to something.” They’re like, “Wow!” And I’m like, “It’s the same song you have like that, like this,” and they’re like, “Wow!” And it’s like, “I didn’t know all them instruments were there,” yeah, no, [under breath] sh—, you know?

[laughter]

And, you know, we gotta get them back to where they’re really enjoying music and hearing everything. I’m not trying to say that we should be selling huge speakers like these, [gestures to side of stage] but that would be nice too. I’m not even in the speaker market, that’s, I don’t sell speakers, so, you know… I can say that we should have amps and the rest of the stuff. I use the Bowers & Wilkins headphones, they sound really good. There’s lots of good headphones out there you could play that sound really good personally. Get a good soundsystem so that you can hear stuff. And, that’s what we grew up with. We grew up wanting to hear sound sound good. You know? And that’s what mastering was about, trying to get it to sound good. I sometimes hear stuff in the studio, I’m like, “No one’s gonna hear this. It’s amazing that nobody’s gonna hear this.” And, unfortunately, when the CD goes away, that’s right now the last full-resolution format. There are other formats out there, but they kinda went away. There used to be the 5.1 and DVD-A[udio], stuff like that, but I was the only guy in the aisles looking at that stuff. I remember going to Virgin before they closed, and it’s like, “Oh, here’s a high-res music.” And you could drop a pin, and there was nobody in that aisle except me buying a few things, and I was like, “OK, nobody cares.” So, what happens is, the state-of-the-art has dropped, to the point where music is just whatever it sounds like. Apple’s trying to make a better comeback with the “Mastered for iTunes,” which I’m part of. It’s a start, I will give them that. And maybe it’ll take off. Maybe next thing’ll be full-res files. Who knows?

Gerd Janson

But you also told me earlier that some of the records you did back in the day, you would go and remaster them today also.

Herb Powers Jr.

I’ve done that.

Gerd Janson

Yeah.

Herb Powers Jr.

I’ve done that.

Gerd Janson

So why is that, if that was…?

Herb Powers Jr.

Because now we have the capability of storage. Remember, it’s a storage device. When you put things in 24-bit, at higher bit rates, you actually can store this with even more, if you wanna call it, fidelity, than we had then. Again, I’m a lover of vinyl, and I do love a lot about it, but vinyl has, as any format does, its own limitations. And one of them, normally, is the bass response that we can put on it, and that’s because we can’t fit it, you know? Whereas, if you were listening to a file at its full resolution, you can get the bass response all the way down to wherever you want it. So, now sometimes I put things up, and I actually redo them, and they come out great, you know, but there’s nothing to put ‘em on. There’s really no way to get them anywhere. It’s like, I could make a AIF or WAV file and just play it, but it’s not on like, a format, per sé.

Gerd Janson

And should we maybe… You brought some stuff in their untreated stages?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, well, what we have here is, and this’ll give you an idea. [passes played record back] It’s a couple of songs that I’m gonna play that are before mastering and after mastering. Most of them, you’ll notice are, of course, they’re louder, but it’s not really about that. It’s also getting more sound out of it. And I’m just gonna put a couple of them on, and it’ll give you an idea of some of the stuff you can get out of mastering, per sé. I’m not gonna play the whole pieces because I have them all on the full-lengths, but it’ll give you an idea. And what you’ll notice on each song there, there might be something different because they’re different types of material. Some of them are more explicit than others, and all of them, I will say, were recorded really well, but when you go to the mastering stage, we’re doing it for the street. The funny thing about studios, studios are some really great sounding rooms, but they’re really not necessarily… Nobody has, and I would say this because you guys have it, nobody has Augspurgers [studio monitor systems] in their house, and nobody has big JBLs normally, or the big Genelecs [speaker brands]. So, we have a tendency to listen to stuff… And so, I listen to stuff on big speakers, and then I listen on small speakers and even started now listening on headphones, just to get a perspective of what’s going on so that I can understand how the average person’s gonna hear it. So, in the studio a lot of times we hear it and it’s like, “That’s perfect.” And then you come out to the studio and they take that mix and you go in your car and it’s just kind of laying there. Everything’s there and it’s all in good spots but it doesn’t jump at you. And that’s what we can get from mastering. So let me just play a couple of things.

Gerd Janson

Let me help you. And you’re also approaching each project differently then?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes.

Gerd Janson

Because I know there are some mastering engineers out there who just put their “pump” on everything they get.

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, you know, what’s interesting about that? Yeah, [chuckles] I never would bring up names, but yeah, there is a lot of times that I take every record differently ‘cause I try to put myself in the genre of that music. If it’s a ballad, I try to put myself into the genre of the ballad. If it’s a dance record, same thing. And I find that sometimes, because of economy of scale, if you wanna call it that, I find that a lot of guys just kind of have this, I’m not gonna say one-EQ-fits-all, but one concept fits all. It’s almost, like especially if there were often the same type of studio and say, “You know, I’m just gonna put this up, and it’s gonna work, and it sounds better than what came in, and I’m good.” You know, I really sit there and I like, “Oh, a quarter of the dB here half a dB… Let’s try this. Oh, I can hear a little air in the tweeter coming out. Oh, I can feel the bass, now the bass went from here to just growling at me…” Then I get happy with it, but it takes longer of listening to it. You got to just really put yourself into it. So, like, if you’re doing a jazz thing, you pretend you’re in a jazz club. If you’re doing dance, you get there and start dancing, and pretend you’re in the club. You know, it just goes with the flow of it.

Gerd Janson

And how important is it for you to actually like the material or enjoy it?

Herb Powers Jr.

That’s important. [chuckles]

Gerd Janson

So, you like everything you get?

Herb Powers Jr.

No. Nah, nah, nah. You know what? That’s important and it’s important to like everything you got, but it doesn’t work that way. You know, but again, that’s when I can go back to the engineer side as I’m just trying to make it sound right for them. So, I don’t have to necessary like everything, but the most things I do like because I like all sorts of different types of music. But sometimes things can get like, “Oh, this is like really worrying me.” So, maybe I just do, if it’s an album, do two songs and then take a break and then do two songs, take break, something like that. But I wouldn’t say that’s the norm, ‘cause I just really… The reason I got into this business was ‘cause I like music, it wasn’t eve… Oh, excuse me, and I like gear, you know? [laughter] I love gear, gear is like really cool, you know? It just does so many things. [points to desk] Look at all them buttons! Like, if they turned the lights down, and you saw all the buttons, make ‘em flash and stuff…

[laughter]

Like, that one’s going “beep, beep.” It’s just, it’s cool and it was like, you’re in the studio and you got all buttons flashing and half of them don’t do nothing, but they look cool, you know?

[laughter]

Gerd Janson

So, that’s how you pick your gear?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, it’s like, “Oh, look at that!”

Gerd Janson

If it looks like a Christmas tree?

Herb Powers Jr.

Of course, yeah it’s gotta light up, it’s like, “Oh, look at that.” You know, and then you listen to it.

[laughter]

You know, OK, it’s like… But we all do that. And come on, [points across the room] why isn’t that Red Bull sitting there all lit up? I mean, it would look cool. But see, they should have put some of the reds on the other side, because this is like a little off center.

Gerd Janson

There are some reds in that fridge.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, it’s like… And these lights are like, killing the whole mood of place. Make it dark, and make it cool, light a candle, you know?

[laughter]

Little scents and stuff, you know, and then everything is like cool. Then you listen the music, just bobbling your head.

[laughter]

And then you get into whole flow of it. And then before you know it, you’ve a whole…

Gerd Janson

So, that’s how you’re mastering studio looks like?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerd Janson

Dark and scent sticks?

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh, yeah. My wife always says like, “Will you you turn up the light? You’re gonna go blind!”

[laughter]

[holds up glasses] She was right.

[laughter]

You know, it’s like, yeah, you keep it nice and dark, and plus lights makes you hot. So, it’s like horrible, but I know the camera needs that though, you know? [touches head] So they can see my hair that I didn’t shave this morning. [chuckles] You try to keep this whole vibe, you know, so that you get in the vibe! Because that’s the whole point, you know? You wanna get in the vibe, get in the vibe of the music, and then it becomes this whole experience.

Gerd Janson

And what’s your favorite pieces of gear for mastering, if you care to share that?

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, I have a GML, a George Massenburg EQ, that I love. I love some Prism gear, I have some Apogee gear, I have some Sony gear, Sony Pro. A lot of different pieces… Focusrite… A lot of good pieces of gear. But for different songs you use different things. So you never know exactly what you’re going to use, but the main thing is just getting it to sound good as you apply it, and then it’s like, “Oh, no, I’m not getting it with that.” So you jump to this, or I use both or something like that. I have an API that I love, that’s like incredible, you know? And um, I use Sonic Solutions for my digital work station. I also have a ProTools system, but that I just really use for playback. Most people use it for a lot of different things, but I’m not mixing and recording, really. Well, I have, but that’s not what I’m doing most of the time. I just did a whole album mix a couple of months ago. It was live too, so it was really cool. Actually, it was a horror scene when it first came in, and I couldn’t believe, it was like, “Ooh, I’ve got like 36 channels of loud.” [laughter] And it was like, “OK, we’ve gotta make this really cool.” And it was live, so you heard the voices over everything, so it was like sitting there, first getting everything, to get rid of the voices and make the instruments sound good. But it was actually for a school thing, so I was really motivated ‘cause I wanted to, it was in a college thing, so I wanted it to sound good, and it came out really good, if I say so myself, you know?

[laughter]

Gerd Janson

I believe that.

Herb Powers Jr.

It really came out good, you know? And, you know, when I heard it afterward I was like, “Ooh, this sounds good!” You know? And it was like, ‘cause everything was there, and that’s the main thing; that everything was there. You know, brought the bass up, got the bass flowing, got the saxes going and everything, and you know, do a little sonic stuff to it, you know?

Gerd Janson

So, Herb “Mix” Powers is the stage, then?

Herb Powers Jr.

No, no, I just do that occasionally. And I, and I used to do that years ago, but I just try to stay in one vein. There’s plenty of great mixers out there, you know?

Gerd Janson

And what did you bring for us? [gestures to desk]

Herb Powers Jr.

OK, well, I got a couple of songs here. I’m gonna start with… I’m gonna start with a ballad. This is one ballad, the artist’s name is Lalah Hathaway. Actually, Lalah Hathaway is the daughter of Donny Hathaway. And it’s just one of the songs. And it just gives you the before-mastering, which’ll be first, and then after mastering. And like I said, I really want to emphasize, everything sounds really good before mastering too, but it just needs that flavor, that pump. Herbie! I didn’t say that, y’all can erase that. [laughter] Yeah, the first one.

(music: Lalah Hathaway – “On Your Own” / unmastered)

(music: Lalah Hathaway – "On Your Own" / mastered)

That one was, like I say, Lalah Hathaway. The main thing that you can hear from it is, everything just got brought up. You can hear a little bit more detail top end, little more detail on the low end, and the vocals with all the changes did not get in any way pushed back. She needed to come out a little bit more also. Let's go onto another one. Let's go to something a little more up-tempo.

(music: Unknown / unmastered)

Herb Powers Jr.

[speaking over music] This is one of songs where I would be dancing in the room, but I won't do it now.

(music: Unknown / mastered)

See, I don't know about y'all, but I'm ready to like party, you know, if we could turn down the lights a little bit, get the bass up, and just like, [raises arms] yeah! We're gonna try another one.

[applause]

(music: Emily King - "Moon" / unmastered)

[speaking over music] If you guys listen closely, this song really opens up. You really notice a lot of changes. I don't know how much you all can actually hear here, but it really does open up beautifully.

(music: Lalah Hathaway – “On Your Own” / mastered)

That one was, like I say, Lalah Hathaway. The main thing that you can hear from it is, everything just got brought up. You can hear a little bit more detail top end, little more detail on the low end, and the vocals with all the changes did not get in any way pushed back. She needed to come out a little bit more also. Let’s go onto another one. Let’s go to something a little more up-tempo.

(music: Unknown / unmastered)

Herb Powers Jr.

[speaking over music] This is one of songs where I would be dancing in the room, but I won’t do it now.

(music: Unknown / mastered)

See, I don’t know about y’all, but I’m ready to like party, you know, if we could turn down the lights a little bit, get the bass up, and just like, [raises arms] yeah! We’re gonna try another one.

[applause]

(music: Emily King – “Moon” / unmastered)

[speaking over music] If you guys listen closely, this song really opens up. You really notice a lot of changes. I don’t know how much you all can actually hear here, but it really does open up beautifully.

(music: Kool & the Gang – “Steppin’ Into Love” / mastered)

So anyway, in that one, the reason why I said that was, I just kept hearing those horns and I was like, “I gotta bring these up.” On every stab you just want them to like, jump at you, so you do whatever you can do to make that come alive, and you hope that the artist likes it, and they did. They did, it was like “Wow!”

Gerd Janson

The artist was Kool & the Gang?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, that last one was Kool & the Gang, who’ve actually been around for many years. They actually came out with a new album a couple years ago. And their horns. That’s one of the things they do, bass and horns.

Gerd Janson

And have there been certain artists you’ve developed a relationship with over the years? They always ask for you, you always master their stuff?

Herb Powers Jr.

Mm. Yes, actually that’s kind of how you get a, I guess, you call a reputation or resume, if you want to call it… Most of the time, when people, when you work with them the first time you get to know them, they get to know you… I’d say by the third or fourth time… Which is, it’s cool, but it’s also kind of sad, you don’t see them anymore, as far as they don’t come in anymore. Because they say, “Oh, I just send it to Herb.”

Gerd Janson

Yeah, but that’s a sign of trust.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes, and that’s why I said, it’s cool, but it’s not, ‘cause then you don’t have the session. ‘Cause, like I said, I do like the sessions, too, ‘cause you can have some fun with people, just hanging out.

Gerd Janson

And by then you also know how you prefer your premaster, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

Right.

Gerd Janson

And how do you prefer the premasters to be?

Herb Powers Jr.

Clean. No, just to be as well as you can do it. And nowadays, I say, “Don’t over-level things because then I don’t have any headroom to work with.”

Gerd Janson

So over-level is when the file [gestures drawing a straight line] looks like a brick, right?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes, yes. Some people call it brick-walling, some people call it super-L2ing, whatever you wanna call it. But when it’s got too much, because in all actuality a mastering studio can do it better, if you’re gonna do it anyway, because they normally have… And no dis to anybody, I’m really talking about a real studio that’s really got a lot of gear, because, you know, if you’re just running into a computer, and I’m not saying you can’t do a good job, you can still do a good job, but… I’m an analog guy, so I kind of always go with analog. I go from digital to analog all the time with every song, and then go back to digital. I could go straight digital but I just… I don’t know, I always hear it a little bit. So I like that warmth of analog, that vibe that some analog gear has. Plus, I paid a lot of money for that gear [laughter] and I want to use it, and I want to see the lights.

[laughter]

‘Cause you could get a plug-in of something, and I’m not going to even have this discussion of plug-in versus analog because I don’t know them that well. I’ve heard some, but I like my gear that I have. Like, I know they have these API plug-ins but I like the way API sounds. I even like the way that API sounds when it’s kind of acting up, ‘cause a plug-in will never do that. A plug-in, you’ll never get this little noise like, I call the API, “Why can’t we get a little noise, a little noise in the left channel.” “Oh, that’s normal.” “Oh, OK, cool.” “That gives you the feel!” “Yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re right.” Then I wonder if that’s right. That’s what analog does. It has its faults, it has its color, it has its vibes. You might not want that on a classical song. Or maybe you do. But you know, you kind of pick and choose where you’re going to use stuff, you know? I guess, if they wanted to make a plug-in with that, they could put noise in, it’s just never the same. It’s like, “OK, we put noise in this plug-in to make it sound like the analog.” Like, I’ve seen some plug-ins that’s supposed to be like tape compression. They never sound like tape compression, ‘cause then it’s like, what tape? Is it 3M? Is it Ampex? Is it Grandmaster Ampex? Is it this? And then you got to get into all that. Maybe they even have a switch for that, I don’t know.

Gerd Janson

Do you still have to master from tape?

Herb Powers Jr.

I still have my Studer. But actually that was, Kool & the Gang was one of the last things that came on… Um, yeah, that and John Legend, but yeah, not much. I don’t think I’ve turned on the machine in years now. You know… Beautiful machine, though.

Gerd Janson

Yeah, that’s how it goes with new formats.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yes, yes.

Gerd Janson

Should we open it up maybe for some questions from these guys?

Herb Powers Jr.

Sure. I even put up my reel-to-reel up on Facebook.

Gerd Janson

For sale? Or just for show-off?

Herb Powers Jr.

No, just showing up there ‘cause most people were like, “What’s that?” It’s funny, I went to a Sam Ash [musical instrument] store, and I almost got… You know, ‘cause you sometimes you say something and you don’t know which way it’s going to go, and I almost got mad at the salesman, but I’m like, “Ah, I’m not going to get mad at him, he doesn’t know.” I’m like, “You all got like any tape-head cleaner?” He was like, “What?” “Tape-head cleaner! I got to clean the heads of my tape machine.” “Dude, that’s so ancient. We don’t… We got ProTools.” I’m, “OK, I’m going to smack him upside his head in a second. I have ProTools. I have this and I have a tape machine and I got tape… Shut up!” But anyway.

Gerd Janson

Where did you get the cleaner then? In that shop, or?

Herb Powers Jr.

No, I just ordered some.

Gerd Janson

Online?

Herb Powers Jr.

You can get everything online. [laughter] It’s sad because I always used to love going to stores to get everything, you go into the store now and you can’t find anything. I understand that stores can’t stock everything that everyone wants, so… Amazon this, you just find it, tape cleaner and it’s like “Brrt.” Bing or Google, you know, they have the Bing commercials. Sometimes it’s pretty cool, you know? [laughs] Yeah, you know.

Gerd Janson

Any questions for Mr. Powers? [points] There’s the first one.

Audience Member

Hi. Thanks for being here. You are talking about the “Mastered for iTunes.” Do you think, it’s going to take a few years, I guess, but it will help to end the loudness war?

Herb Powers Jr.

Say that again?

Audience Member

Do you think the iTunes, the “Mastered for iTunes” stuff is going to help end the loudness war?

Herb Powers Jr.

Do I think it will?

Gerd Janson

Yeah, we didn’t talk about the loudness war. Maybe?

Herb Powers Jr.

We could talk about that. I don’t know. I really don’t know. [pauses] I don’t think that that’s going to be the answer. Here’s a funny thing about, and I’m sure everyone in here probably has high speed [Internet], there’s a lot of people in this country that don’t have high speed. Like my mom. And I’m always like, “You got to get high-speed Internet.” She’s got this slow speed, I go to her house, and this one song takes two hours and it’s only 40 megs. And I go home and I’m like, “Look, Mom. I go home and they can do it in 30 seconds.” And I’m like, “Mom, please.” OK, I’m gonna buy it, I’m gonna get it for her. But that happens a lot and the bigger the files get, you know, as far as people downloading them, I think it’s coming on board but I don’t know if that’s gonna do it. And there’s a lotta people that probably still wanna get music elsewhere, ‘cause it’s… OK, if iTunes is going to do that, I’m sure Amazon’s gonna have something competing. And I’m sure whatever other services, they’re gonna have something competing. And right now it seems like everyone just does Pandora [streaming service] or something like that, you know? There’s so many sites where you can hear music, you know, Spotify, Pandora and stuff. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, ‘cause I can’t be in the mind of the end user.

Audience Member

It was more… I work in a mastering studio, so, for this process, when you listen through iTunes, stuff will reload at the beginning, like the end sounded with less volume than a track mastered with more dynamic.

Herb Powers Jr.

Right. Well, yeah. I think you’re saying that, because they don’t want any overs.

Audience Member

Yeah.

Herb Powers Jr.

Right. I get it. They give you this applet and you also gotta do this quick test on every song to make sure that you have no overs. It’s doable, but you have to reduce the volume. And there’s ways of getting around that to reduce the volume so that it works out pretty good. But I’m really still not thinking that that’s really the issue. I think what the issue is that the file system that they’re turning it into. The AAC, they’re still doing a heavy compression of the file that, when I hear it compared to the original 24-bit, it still doesn’t, it loses some things. And again, I just say, “Why do we have to lose?” That’s my thing. At some point, we gotta have it put out there full, you know?

Audience Member

Last thing, you were talking about space for the computer. Do you have any opinion about the SSD?

Herb Powers Jr.

About the what?

Audience Member

SSD? The new hard drives? Well, not…

Gerd Janson

The solid-state?

Audience Member

Yeah.

Herb Powers Jr.

They’re fast. [laughs] They’re fast and expensive. I don’t use them. I have one, but I don’t use them for my music. I just use high speed, you know, 7200 RPM and higher, you know, two terabytes. I got a couple of ‘em in my top Mac tower, and you know, fill ‘em up, and copy ‘em to another external and go back at it. To me, it’s not… I don’t think it’s going to… Listen, I’m not a computer genius, [laughs] so I don’t wanna, I could say something and someone could smack me, “Sh—, that was wrong, Herb, how can you say that?” Maybe they could help the sound, I don’t know. But I haven’t had a sonic problem with what I’m using now, so I can’t say that it’s gonna be better or not. They are reliable, or seem to be, and they are so fast. So your stuff boots up quick and things happen really quick. That’s what I’m impressed with the most with them, you know? But I don’t really see where the cost of that will… Because I don’t even think they’ve gotten up to way into the gigs yet. I guess, maybe they have. Actually, they have. You should see the price on that! I was on, I think it was Western Digital’s site, they got this pro-side. You’ve got a lot of clicks and get into it, and they don’t even sell it unless you’re like a dealer. And they call it some super name. It’s like “Super Sonic Super Duper, solid state, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, “Call for price.” [laughs] Whenever it’s like, no price listed, then you know you’re in trouble. You know? [laughter] And that’s the other thing, they guarantee that it’ll last longer than I’ll be alive.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Gerd Janson

No problem. Oh, and you wanted to ask about the loudness war before?

Herb Powers Jr.

The loudness war, before we’ll grab another question. The loudness war. That’s the interesting thing. I was part of the, one of the guys, I think that’s how I got the name “Pump.” So whatever, I was in the loudness wars. The funniest thing about it was, the loudness wars were started for the vinyl. And I had one of the best vinyl-cutting systems for squeezing the most space in a disk. There were like, three different systems. But I had tweaked mine. And the guy who actually built it came in and tweaked it even more. So, I was able to get a lot of level on my disks. Plus, there was a lot about vinyl-cutting that a lot of people don’t know. You actually, the cutter-head is actually a small speaker and it’s actually scribing the analog signal into the disk. And here’s just a thought: if you can get that cutter head lots of amplifier power, it’s like giving a speaker lots of amplifier power; you don’t clip, technically, and you get extra headroom. And we modified the amps on our cutting system with these big power-amps that were for clubs. And, so we were able to just put all sorts of sounds on a disk. But that’s a lot of work. But the loudness wars came ‘cause everyone wanted their records to sound louder than the last record. And then it became a real problem because if you did Lalah [Hathaway] this year and then two years from now it’s, “Can I get it louder, Herb?” “OK.” And then the next one, too, “Can I get it louder?” And then, “OK, we ran out, there’s nothing to go louder in.” We passed that peak maybe ten years ago. So now, to get more level, we have to… It’s a give or take. So in order to get more level, you got to take from something else, or accept something else, more distortion. Nowadays, I’m at the point where we’re at the level that we can be. If you want it louder, that’s where I really will say to someone, “Listen, I can make it louder but if you want it louder I can’t guarantee it’s not going to distort. So you’re going to have to live with that if that’s what you are looking for.” And I’ve heard so many records that even come in and it’s just distorted. You know? It’s got this crunch and [sighs], and then it’s like, “Wow, we’re going somewhere else.” You know? What I guess I’m saying is that we already passed the peak years ago. There’s nothing more that we can get out of it, unless some new technology comes out that I don’t know what it is yet. I don’t think it’s even the solid-state drives. [laughs] But who knows? I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but I don’t see how we’re gonna get more level off it. And everything’s loud enough! And you know what? And I think you have more than one here. [points to desk] I always tell people, “There’s always a volume control. Even on your phone.” So, what’s the point?

Gerd Janson

So the war’s over.

Herb Powers Jr.

No, I just think that it’s been lost. Or won. However you wanna…

Gerd Janson

Depends on the side you are on.

Herb Powers Jr.

Right, right. ‘Cause some people want to be louder, but it’s like, they’re not really accomplishing anything. They’re actually detracting from their sound at this point.

Gerd Janson

And there’s another one.

Audience Member

Yeah, I got a couple questions for you and thanks for being here, first off. In a proper club setting you’ve talked about how much you love 24-bit WAV and how much you really think that it’s [how] we can achieve the highest quality. But there’s something about playing a record, because even when I’ll play a 24-bit WAV on a CD in a club, then I’ll switch over to a record that hasn’t been beaten, with the anti-skating done perfectly and everything, and there’s just something about it that just fattens the room up. And that’s against like a 24-bit WAV or a really high quality AIF file. So if it was up to you, for your personal taste, would you rather have a high quality WAV or would you rather have a nicely pressed record? Desert island situation.

Herb Powers Jr.

[laughs] Well, OK. I’m gonna just say this for the record: I would give it to the records [because] that’s how I learned how to spin on. I’ve never spun with files. I don’t even own one of them. [points to desk] I gotta get one of them, they’re pretty cool and I like the blinking lights.

[laughter]

[chuckles] And I have quite a few CD players. But I learnt on, I still have my 1200s and I got a couple other turntables. I learned on records, so that’s kind of all I know. There’s probably reasons for that and, again, I’m not knocking any one format and I never would because they both are different. But I would probably say it’s probably the fatness of the cartridge and the RIAA [equalization] curve built into certain things. And every manufacturer’s different. Like, if you had the whole Bozak mixers and stuff like that, they were built for turntables. And then, if you have some of the newer ones, they don’t put as good circuits in certain things. So I think it’s not a true A/B comparison. And, see, that’s where my thing’s coming from. Is it a true A/B comparison of this file versus this record? Can you put this record directly into it and A-B it, and hear everything that you hear on the record? And that’s where, you know, I’m going to come on… Now whether it’s happening in the club, probably not, because they probably have a smoother curve for the record. And you know, that happens, so you’re going to like the record better. But then of course you have that, and let’s have the conversation like I did on that thing, you did mention something that’s hard to find, and that’s the perfect record. Unfortunately. You know? But again, still, there’s a charm to hearing the pops and ticks, look how many we put to the files. [laughs] You start a file nowadays, they put pops and ticks on it because they want to hear that vibe. It’s a vibe thing, so I just say go with whichever one you like best. I would still go with the record because that’s what I know I just like the tactile feel of it, I like the size of it. And I know a lot of guys do both, you know, so whatever works.

Audience Member

And also I wanted to ask you, what’s the youngest person you’ve seen cutting records? Because I’ve been talking to a lot of people about working lathes and stuff, and they seem to be kind of concerned that it’s a dying art form, and that a lot of younger people don’t know how to do it or master for it, and most of the people that I have mastering vinyl for my label are older. But they’ve been doing disco records and all this stuff, so I haven’t really run into too many younger people. So it’s kind of people are starting to having to worry about having to operate the machinery, and passing it down onto people, and people not wanting to even really care about it so…

Herb Powers Jr.

So you’re asking me what’s the youngest person?

Audience Member

Yeah, what’s the youngest person you’ve seen cutting records?

Herb Powers Jr.

Ooh, good question.

Audience Member

Like recently, past six years.

[laughter]

Herb Powers Jr.

I don’t really know. I mean, there’s a few younger guys out there but, see, my kids always say, “You said he was young. And you said he was a certain age,” and I’m like, “Ooh, I’m old.” So it’s perspective. To me, a young guy is 30. OK, that’s bad. Yeah, so, I don’t now. I really don’t know of too many myself. I just know of the older guys ‘cause that’s the group that I was with.

Audience Member

I think that’s most of them, though, the older guys.

Herb Powers Jr.

Really, you would probably know that better than I do. I think it should be learned, you know, because it’s a great art form, and it doesn’t seem to be fully going away. And I’m glad it’s not. So I guess, I’ll teach a few people if they get a lathe.

Audience Member

I’m into that.

Herb Powers Jr.

OK.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Herb Powers Jr.

No problem.

Gerd Janson

One more there.

Audience Member

Hi.

Herb Powers Jr.

Hello.

Audience Member

Another thing that I was thinking about. You must have seen a lot of tracklistings in your time, coming in. I wanted to hear, in your mind, has there been a change in the way people structure albums, from years-back up until now? And if so, what do you think lies in that change of perspective?

Herb Powers Jr.

Well, yeah, um… On the vinyl side, it was, they used to call it, “Load up the album with the hits at the front.” So yeah, the first song on side A, first two songs would be the hits, and then it would slowly be not the hits.

[laughter]

If you want to call it that, or the B-sides, and stuff like that. My wife always asks, “What’s the tracklist?” ‘Cause she’s my studio manager. And a lot of the times you get, “Huh?” Not all the time, but sometimes you get that. Nowadays, I don’t think it’s that, because with the CD, and with iTunes, you’re buying by song. So really, even if it’s the whole album, and even if it is in the right tracklist that the CD follows, people are like, “I like song three and I’m only buying three and five.” And that’s why they always have space in there. That’s why, and I’m getting off your subject a little bit, but I love putting albums together in tempo, crossfades, and especially if it’s a dance record, or something like that, or even if it’s just a mood record, ballads, where a ballad goes and crosses into another one, you get this whole thing. And a lot of times you can’t have that because it wouldn’t work on the uploads.

Audience Member

No.

Herb Powers Jr.

And you lose a whole perspective. Years ago, after we were finished mastering, you’re right. We sat there for a long time trying to figure out, and we have many different sequences put together, of what flowed better. But, I guess, that still goes on to some degree. And some people are into it, and others aren’t, you know? I would say most of the guys I worked with are still into it. You know, ‘cause they do have their ideas.

Audience Member

Yeah, that’s another question, I guess, you just brought it up yourself. I wanted to ask you if you have a philosophy on transitions. I guess, what you’re saying is you like putting effort in transitions.

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh, yeah.

Audience Member

Yeah.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah, I love that. To me, that’s part of the mastering process. It’s part of the process. It’s not like, an important… Well, I shouldn’t say it’s not important, because there’s some albums that we actually took like, little pieces, and they didn’t mean anything by themselves, but you put it between something, and all of a sudden you get this whole flow going. Yeah, I think that how something’s put together is how you can sit there and listen to it. Especially, like, if you’re in a car and you’re just driving along, and it’s like, “Wow, that flows right nice into that one. Ooh, yeah.” And something might be a ballad, then it goes up-tempo at the right point, then you have another up-tempo, and then it brings you down… It gives you this emotional high, and lows, and stuff like that, like a good book, you know?

Audience Member

Yeah. Thank you very much.

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah.

Audience Member

What’s up, man?

Herb Powers Jr.

How you doing? [laughs]

Audience Member

[laughs] It’s a bit of a simple question. Alright, thank you for coming.

Herb Powers Jr.

Oh, you’re welcome.

Audience Member

I meant to ask the other mastering guy, but has there ever been a time when you were brought a track and it’s like over[whelming] you?

Herb Powers Jr.

[laughs] No, no, I’m serious. This is gonna be good.

Audience Member

No, I mean, it’s relatively simple. I mean, has there ever been a time when you were brought a track, and you listened to it as a whole, and it just overwhelms you? Emotionally, I mean?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah! Yeah. That’s happened.

Audience Member

What track?

[laughter]

Herb Powers Jr.

Actually, one of the things that did that years ago to me was one of Sade’s songs, a couple of her songs. There’s been quite a few. And it’s different emotions, of course. You know, some emotions are like, “Wow, that was sad.” When I did Luther Vandross, “Dance With My Father,” I had heard a whole story on that from them before he passed. And it was like, “Wow, that’s sad,” you know? And it just gets into you as you’re doing it, you know, because then you get to hear the whole story of why it was written. I mean, I’ve had many different tracks that have done that, from all different artists, you know? Even some dance tracks, house music, and stuff like that, the emotional content is so intensive that, it’s like, “Wow, this is like, just…” You feel the hairs on your back stand up, and stuff like that. And I’ve also had some tracks that, they’re so like… And I don’t even know, necessarily, what they’re always are about, but they seem sad. You know? Maybe it’s just me, I’m very in tune with things like that, you know? So yeah, that’s a definite. I almost think if a track doesn’t involve an emotion of some sort, it’s not necessarily right. And I’m not saying it has to be good, bad, or anything, but it should have an emotion to it, you know, of something. Like, one of them tracks we were playing, every time I hear it with the way that, I just feel like, you’re on an island or somewhere. You know, it’s just like, chillin’. You know?

[laughter]

Give me a little pina colada or something.

[laughter]

Audience Member

Let’s see. That was Emily King, right, the second one?

Herb Powers Jr.

Yeah.

Audience Member

I’m like, “I know that song!”

Audience Member

Hi.

Herb Powers Jr.

Hello.

Audience Member

I was wondering if you ever got involved in kind of audiophile pressings of records back in the day. Like, I’ve got records where they’d release a new version where it was like half-speed mastered, and like, all these fancy things done to it to… And I’ve actually had situations where I bought like two or three copies of a record and they all sound slightly different, and there’d be like an audiophile one that was maybe supposed to be the best, but I don’t know. And I’d wondered if you’ve ever worked in that realm at all.

Herb Powers Jr.

I did half-speed mastering mastering. Yeah, we got into that. It didn’t last long. Well, I shouldn’t say that, because I think there’s probably still some now and they’re probably what’s left, which is funny, it’s probably one of the biggest genres of what’s left now but we got into half-speed masterings. That was really interesting because you had the actually make everything at half the speed, including the lathe, then when you played it back it was, you gonna actually pack more information in it. It’s just the way a lathe is. A lathe doesn’t like extreme top end. It can play it, but it can’t play it loud, so if you halve it, say, if you have something at 15K and now it’s 7k and it could take that better, seven and a half or eight. So when you get it to that you actually pack more information in the disk. But talk about not be cost-effective [laughs] and blowing the sides. You know, you wind up spending all day doing one record and the record companies did not appreciate that very much. [laughs]

Audience Member

I think those records, the ones I’ve got, they sound absolutely amazing.

Herb Powers Jr.

Some of them really do. We also had DMM, which is Direct Metal Mastering. You’re actually not cutting on the black acetate, you’re cutting on the actual master. It cuts out some of the processing and you’re actually cutting on copper and the lathe looks incredible. The copper’s just a thin sheet, if you grab it with you hand, you cut you hand up ‘cause it’s like razor blades, because you’re actually cutting on the metal. And that actually sounded a little bright, but it did sound cleaner. So I dealt with quite a few of those.

Audience Member

Are there any records do you think are like, the greatest pressing that you know of? Are there like, records that are like, the pinnacle for you? That you like, have on a pedestal? I’ve got records that friends came into my house and I’m like this the best-sounding records I know that I wanna play them, and things like that. That you’d give as an example to people?

Herb Powers Jr.

You know what my problem is? I don’t know particularly because, I know this is gonna sound weird, when I really like the record I cut myself a copy. You know, really bad. But I used to buy my own boxes of acetate and I would cut myself a copy and keep it. And then I never listen to the store-bought one.

[laughter]

I’m not trying to say too much here, but I think I said too much. Because the store-bought one… If you heard an acetate, [points] if you heard an acetate, oh my god. Well you have, because you said you have a record company. You know what I’m talking about? They sound… You can’t play them that often, though, but the first couple of plays, there’s not a noise. If you put a needle down, it’s like you put a CD on. Just pure music. No noise, no nothing. And I would take that and just archive that, and that’s what I heard. And then when I would always the street one… [making hissing noises] You can see the needle go like this, [mimes needle movement] and it would be a little off, and a little flutter… It’s not the same record! They’re trying to get a good pressing and sometimes you would and sometimes you wouldn’t, you know? You can’t go out, run and buy ten and say “Oh, two are good out of the ten.” So you’d be broke. So I would just, if I really like something, I would just have the acetate. I still do sometimes.

[laughter]

Audience Member

Nice, I think you’re the most serious audiophile I ever met at that point. [laughs]

Herb Powers Jr.

I really am, you know? It’s a sickness. I hope that answers it.

[laughter]

Audience Member

I’m going to buy a lathe. It’s the only way.

Herb Powers Jr.

It’s like drugs. [laughs, taps crook of arm] You know, a little more… How much was that? Oh my god! You’ll faint. You know, it’s not cool.

Audience Member

You’re talking about cutting direct to the metal, what about the actual plant where it’s getting pressed because you’re talking about skipping a step, but sometimes when we get records pressed at one place they sound way better than at another plant, like the actual plant.

Herb Powers Jr.

Right.

Audience Member

Where they’re pressing it.

Herb Powers Jr.

Right, right. Well, not all the plants took them. I don’t believe. And my knowledge of the plants is not that great. I knew some of the guys that worked here. I only went to one once. It was like, OK! There was different plants… Some, I was always happy when they were the ones doing it, and some I was not quite so happy when they were the ones doing it. I will not mention names on that one, but yeah, that’s one of the concepts of the vinyl record. You go to some plants and knew you always got [a good sound], and they really cared. You got a good vinyl record out of them. And others, not so much, sometimes. But, it wasn’t our decision really, it really became the decision of the producer-slash-record company, which one they wanted to use. I always fell out of that loop, to a degree. I hope that answers it a little bit.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Gerd Janson

Any more? If not, thank you very much for being here.

[applause]

And a big round of applause for Mr. Herb Powers.