Jam City

Lauren Martin

Hello everybody, thank you very much for coming to another lecture. Our guest this afternoon is a musician and a songwriter from the UK. His work has taken him from dancefloors in London to recording studios in LA and to pop shows all over the world. He’s a self-taught musician who creates his own musical world, and now in recent years has helped other people create their own. So please help me welcome Jam City. [applause]

Jam City

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lauren Martin

You’re very welcome. The outfit is amazing today I have to say.

Jam City

Thanks Lauren. You know I had to make an effort.

Lauren Martin

This is very pop-pirate. I’m loving it. OK, so... Here you need a microphone. OK, let’s set a scene. It’s 2 AM in the morning in London and you’re in a club. It’s very dark and it’s very loud and there’s bodies moving around everywhere. What do you, the musician, pay attention to in moments like that?

Jam City

2 AM?

Lauren Martin

Maybe not very much at 2 AM but you know.

Jam City

What do I pay attention to? I mean I’m sort of trying to think about my formative musical experiences, I suppose. Going to clubs and enjoying myself and staying out all night and that sort of thing. Wait, is this as a producer, DJ, musician or just someone on the dance floor?

Lauren Martin

A mixture of all. I want to get inside your head, you know.

Jam City

Yeah, I mean the thing I suppose I come back to time and time again is the most simple thing which is just listening to music really, really loud with other people, and obviously a nightclub is the place to do that. But I’ve been going to music, and live music, all my life. My best memories in life, in general, are house parties where someone takes over stereo, and it’s good as well, it’s not like, “Come on mate.” Right? It’s something about hearing music really, really loud with other people, and that really can be anywhere. It could be a nightclub, it could be in someone’s bedroom, it could be wherever. I think it’s that point that you sort of lose yourself in it, and the volume helps you lose yourself in it and the feeling of collectivity that everyone is on a similar wavelength is one of the best feelings in the world. So I think that’s how I feel with that point, maybe. Joy is the word. I feel joyous.

Lauren Martin

Joy in volume.

Jam City

Yes. Yeah exactly. That’s a good one yeah.

Lauren Martin

So whereabouts would you go and listen to this very loud music? You’re from South London right?

Jam City

I’m not from South London.

Lauren Martin

Dang.

Jam City

I mean no, you’re right. I grew up outside of London and I moved to South London, I went to study fine art, actually. I’m from... It felt isolated growing up, I suppose, in the sense that I was really obsessed with music. I didn’t feel like I fit in, I didn’t feel like anyone understood me, and the moment I was able to get a maintenance grant and go and move to a city is... I’m sure that was really transformative for me. And so when I was going out at that time, I’m sure someone my age probably missed the successive golden eras of rave, punk, house music, even two-step, my sister was big into two-step garage so I kind of got that secondhand. But yeah still, having said that, when I first got to London it felt like a very... I just was drunk on going to see music and going out. I was like a kid in a candy store, I suppose.

Some of the places that I was going... Night Slugs were starting to do raves in squats and stuff, and that was a whole mixture of music and people at those. I used to go to Horse Meat Disco a lot as well and really got an education in disco and funk and soul music from there. I caught one or two of the early DMZ as well. I was at DMZ where Kode 9 played “Sign O’ The Times” by Prince, peak time. That was mind blowing. And yeah, it was just a multitude of different music, different culture to just dive right into. I got a musical education from that, that I don’t think I could have got in the same way had I been stuck on my own in an isolated community, or whatever. I had to go out there and experience it and it was brilliant.

Lauren Martin

So apart from being in love with the volume and the joy, and not wanting to be isolated... That grabbed you first, but then as a musician what made you stick around and start getting involved in producing electronic music?

Jam City

Well, I mean it’s funny, I always wanted to be in a band, basically, and I could never find like-minded people to do that with. So really making music for DJing in clubs was a really expedient and easy way to start expressing myself musically. Just basically making edits, doing some simple things. And also, I went to art school to study fine art, but I didn’t really want to do that necessarily, and I was very, very lucky and very privileged to have the time to figure out what I wanted to do, and that was three years I spent studying effectively. Really just three years where I learned how to make music from the ground up. I played guitar a little bit when I was younger, but not very seriously, and I didn’t have any musical education. Going out, getting that education that way, and also having the time to experiment, having the time to make mistakes and learn how to make music on my own and with the help of friends and people who’s DJing it as well. People to validate you, people to be like, “Oh yeah I’m going to play your song out” when we’re in a club, or whatever. All of that was my way into making music and was particularly... I was lucky in that I got that really, I had that support and I had that time to figure it out for myself, I suppose, yeah.

Lauren Martin

When you were studying fine art you said you didn’t want to go on and use fine art in your professional life, but were there any disciplines, ways of working, ways of thinking about the world, that fit into what you did musically at all or were they separate concerns?

Jam City

No, I think it all was part of the same thing in a way. I mean in the UK for art schools there’s... I don’t even know if they do it anymore but it’s a foundation year and it’s free. I ‘d travel up to London every day and just did this for a year, did this free course where... It was the best year of education I’ve had in my life and it was because the bar... Maybe a bit unfair on myself but the bar was very low in the sense that they were interested in people who just wanted to come, people who were just passionate about doing things, not necessarily that you had the skills or whatever, because I’m not a particularly good visual artist.

So what happened with that is that I had a year of an art foundation that was honestly really formative and really life changing because I had teachers that cared enough to teach me things and impart things as well that had nothing to do with music, really, but just having a figure who’s going to be like, “You should look at this” or, “You should look at this” or “Have you ever thought about this? Go to the library and rent out these films.” It’s just this constant unlocking of doors, and unlocking of secret knowledge that is often kept in quite elite reserve, and it’s quite out of access to a lot of people.

And absolutely yeah, that year of free education with some really dedicated and amazing people who I was lucky enough to have as my tutors completely gave me a bunch of tools, I suppose, to think about things when I started to make music. And it’s always indirect, but I think if nothing else it’s just a curiosity and a sense of support as well, that you can do these things. So yeah, absolutely, I definitely had things that were imparted, that year particularly, that were essential to me as a person, I think yeah.

Lauren Martin

So you’re going out, you’re making music, and you released your debut album in 2012, it’s called Classical Curves. Now what made you decide to write an album at that time? What were you particularly interested in? You say you’re a very curious person, a creative person, that got to unlock all these doors and open up your mind. What made you decide that you were going to channel all that into making an album of music?

Jam City

Well I mean, I suppose I’ve just got confident enough to feel like I had just enough of the music making tools to say something that was a bit more in line with... Obviously when you start making music it’s natural and it’s essential that you copy other people and you learn how to do what you want to do. But that was the first point in my life where I felt like I had something to say for myself. I guess the context is that I’d been DJing for a few years around London and stuff, pretty small stuff, and stuff that Night Slugs were playing and the stuff we were enjoying was really very fun, it was colorful, it was very heavily influenced by both sides of the Atlantic, American Hip-Hop and club culture, and also UK music, of course. Yeah, I remember it being a real fun time musically.

Jam City

Then I think when I’d released a few little releases and I started to DJ a bit more and I think collectively everyone at Night Slugs were getting a bit fed up with the music that other people were making, because there was just a bit of a sea change in 2010... Maybe not, maybe a bit later than that, 2011 or whatever, where everyone just started to make techno. I love techno but just suddenly what was once very colorful and interesting and didn’t take ourselves too seriously got a bit macho, got a bit coke-y. Not naming any producers names at all, whatever, it is what it is, but it was just a time for me where I just felt not really into the stuff that’s being played on the dance floors around me.

I remember having that conversation with Alex Bok Bok and had kind of the same thing. And I think that was a good point for me to think, “You know what, now is a good time to just try and do something that’s a bit more...” Or just try and explore some other ideas. Yeah, it’s as simple as that really. It’s just, “Now is a good time to go off on this route.” Yeah.

Lauren Martin

As simple as that. Let’s hear a track from that album then. This track is called “How We Relate To The Body,” and it’s taken from... Which is a fantastic title, it’s great. And this is taken from your debut album on Night Slugs in 2012 called Classical Curves.

(music: Jam City – “How We Relate To The Body”)

[applause] Nice to hear that on big loud speakers.

Jam City

Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren Martin

It’s lovely. So when you were talking about going out in London, going to different parties, but hearing sounds that are very synonymous with both the UK and the US, there’s lots of things in a track like that that feel like you’re taking these symbolic sounds, like you’ve got the cold drum machine sounds of grime, you’ve got clubby breaks, garage swings, but you’re making it all feel very interconnected and soft and woven together. Tell me a little bit more about how you created the sound of this record in a track like that. What was your process?

Jam City

Well I suppose there was three... I mean that’s a good one to play because there was three things that I was really into at the time. One was club music from America, another was, very specifically, Ron Trent and his keyboard playing. Ron Trent has got a very, very specific style of playing house-y keyboard vamps that I was really, really consciously trying to replicate in some way, and the other thing was increasing interest in minimalism and trying to see how far you could strip something back to its raw elements, and club music is particular... Or just DJ music, dance music, or whatever, is a particularly good place to do that, especially when you’re listening to things loud. I think there are always rewards when you strip things back. So yeah, that was... Those three things were all floating around and came together in something like that. Yeah.

Lauren Martin

Rewards is a really nice word to use. What do you mean by rewards?

Jam City

I mean I suppose, on an obvious level, when something drops and you can just hear one thing and there’s a lot of clarity in it, it’s particularly satisfying. There’s a directness there that’s quite satisfying. Yeah, it sounds satisfying to me, that’s, I suppose, what it is, yeah.

Lauren Martin

Personal satisfaction.

Jam City

Yeah. I can’t quite describe why I like that, but I do.

Lauren Martin

I’m glad you do, it’s your music. Tell me a little bit then about what you’re using to make this music, ’cause you used quite a simple setup and you’re not really a gear head so much, as it were. Tell me a little bit about what’s in front of you.

Jam City

Just Ableton and a MIDI keyboard, and that’s it. Especially for that record I think it was like... I mean, I’ve since become, for my sins, a bit of a plugin head, but yeah for that record it’s pretty much just stock sounds. I mean the one thing that I did on that record that has since become my favorite thing to do, I suppose... If I have anything like a signature it’s just really close reverbs. Again I can’t quite describe why I like that, but there’s just a kind of.. It sounds like everything’s recorded in a bathroom basically, like a tile bathroom, or something, and it feels lovely to me. I don’t know why that is, but yeah, I love that. So that’s all I really did.

And also, with that record as well it’s... Again music production for me is a constant education process, as it should be for everyone, I think. Every little weird sound I stumbled upon that I liked the sound of, it all just comes through trial and error. That particular trick that I use on every single thing ever that I do, it literally just comes from not understanding what wetness is on a reverb, or what economy settings are on a reverb. I still don’t understand them, but I was just, “What happens if I turn this up to 11 and what happens if I turn this down to zero?” Just extreme settings, no subtlety whatever. And that’s the way that I learn how to produce music.

I think that when you start with the most extreme end of things and dial it back, you always get interesting results. I do that to this day just to learn things. But yeah, there’s a lot of that in that whole record of just messing around, seeing what sounds good and then having that moment where you’re just, “OK yeah, I don’t know why but something in this sounds right to me so I’m going to run with it.”

Lauren Martin

Personal satisfaction, again. You said that you’re a self taught musician. You said you played a bit of guitar, a bit of keys, and you’ve got Ableton. If you don’t have the formal training of a musicianship... Most people in this room are self-taught musicians in some way or another so they can all really relate. What kind of listening practices do you have, or little tricks that you do to get yourself into that funk when you’re making music?

Jam City

What actual, musical... What do you mean exactly?

Lauren Martin

I mean, do you sit and listen back to the thing you made the day before and think about how you could do it differently?

Jam City

Oh yeah.

Lauren Martin

If you’re self taught and you don’t have that formal language what kind of things do you do?

Jam City

Play to other people, I think. And that’s really hard, I still struggle with that sometimes. And play in a room with people, it’s like the thing I was just saying, you know something works or when it doesn’t when someone else hears it. You can feel the energy in the room shift slightly, “Oh I don’t know about this. [laughs] Maybe I need to go back to the drawing board on this one.” But yeah, I mean there’s all types of techniques, I think, to make yourself a better musician/producer. I mean in all honesty a lot of it is... The hardest thing to do is carving out time and learning. And again, I have the most basic, basic knowledge of theory, and when I say that I really mean basic. Like I know what a minor chord is, it kind of stops there you know. But that took me years to figure out. I was lucky that I had the time to do that, and support to do that. But it pays off, I think. And again, I think especially with electronic music, the tiniest bits of knowledge that you can pick up places can just stretch on for miles and you can use that thing again and again and again. People say the same thing about the guitar. Guitar pop songs are three or four chords repeated again and again and again. And it’s really true. I think that music theory to someone uninitiated, or not schooled in it, is very intimidating and it feels like the preserve of people who have sat in educations and whatnot. But yeah, if you can somehow access it then it really can help you find a language to express yourself in. Yeah.

Lauren Martin

They often say, to be a really, really good writer, you have to read ten times more than you actually write. What kind of music do you listen to to get in a zone. You’re talking about really lovely four chord pop music with guitars. What kind of people do you go back and listen to and go “Oh, that person really nailed that?”

Jam City

Honestly, I’ve got a straightforward answer to that and it’s probably disco, Philly soul, and Gamble and Huff, that kind of thing. And why them in particular is because not only is it musically, harmonically, the most rich music there is, symphonic a lot of it really, but it also was made for dance floors and it was made for radio stations and transistor radios I guess, so like that version of laptop speakers from 40 years ago. And how they’re able to... I mean, just those records are just completely mind-blowing and soulful and inspiring and genuinely moving. And I find that that is something that I come back to a lot. Yeah, actually, that music. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That and The Smiths, but, you know...

Lauren Martin

Not anymore.

Jam City

Well...

Lauren Martin

And no Morrissey.

Jam City

Yeah, I mean, he’s fucked it up. But Johnny Marr’s one of us. He’s a good guy and he’s resolutely left wing. And he was the other half of it, but yeah, you know... [laughs]

Lauren Martin

So tell me a bit more about your guitar playing, because your guitar has stayed with you a lot more in your recent music. You have a... Actually, let’s listen to something from you second album. Let’s get right into that.

Jam City

Sure.

Lauren Martin

Sure. Let’s play a track called “Black Friday.” How about that? Let’s play that one. So this is from your second album. This came out four years after your first one?

Jam City

Yeah. Four years. 2015, yeah.

Lauren Martin

Yeah, so here we go. This one is called “Black Friday,” and it’s taken from his album Dream A Garden.

(music: Jam City – “Black Friday”)

[applause] Let’s talk about those guitars. They sound so lush. When I listen to that, I think it feels like you’ve left the guitar out in the sun for too long, it’s become a bit bleached.

Jam City

[laughs] Yeah.

Lauren Martin

Tell me about that sound and how you achieved that because I was really fascinated to read that you used almost exactly the same setup to make this album as you did your last, and the sounds are very different.

Jam City

Yeah. Yeah, same thing. The only difference is there’s a guitar plugged into the interface. And I sing on the record too. Again, yeah, it’s kind of anti-gear, not for any reason other than cost. I couldn’t make noise as well, where I was living. So just plugged it in, didn’t have any amplification. It gives the guitar quite a nice, clean tone. And yeah, again, it’s working with limitations and ending up with something through trial and error that you actually feel says something about your personality. It took me a while to hear that, but even hearing it now, I’m like OK, yeah, that sounds like me, in a way. And that’s a really nice thing to have as well. Like what you were saying about almost listening to something the day after, or trying to have a technique... a trick to get... To see if the thing you’ve made is successful or not. It’s nice to hear that now and feel like whatever it was in that... I don’t know, that I can comfortably listen to and be like yeah, that feels a part of me. It doesn’t feel like I was going off on a tangent or something. But yeah, I don’t know.

Lauren Martin

Well, the way that you described the room that you made it in then is actually really appropriate, because to me this sounds like songs of and for a very specific environment. And I remember you said right at the start, the joy of club music, of electronic music is volume, the impact of volume, and this was made maybe in headphones in your room where you couldn’t make noise?

Jam City

Yeah, mainly. Yeah, just again, kind of a budget setup. And again, I grew up... I love guitar music, I love rock music. And but I also grew up in the indie years, which was sort of the worst period for culture since the 1950s. [laughs]

Lauren Martin

Why’s that?

Jam City

It was just terrible. It was just terrible. Bad memories. But you know, in all seriousness, at the same time, that was a golden age for American hip-hop and I remember just being really into guitars and guitar music, and then suddenly there was this popular form of guitar music. But it just didn’t really feel interesting anymore. And yes, I feel there’s so much baggage as well with the guitar, and again, it’s about having amplification and space to practice in. You know, I suppose it feels quite nice to just... I don’t want to say reclaim it, because I don’t own it. But do you know what I mean? And actually, I mean I keep hearing really great new artists and songwriters that are probably using a similar setup for cost reasons and everything, and I feel almost like there’s a new wave of really interesting guitar-centered electronic music maybe I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head. But yeah. It’s a beautiful instrument. And one thing as well with playing it, I find it slows me down and it slows the production process down a lot, and that’s really good because I think that sometimes music production software can almost answer your questions for you. And that’s great because it means you make stuff a lot quicker, but when I have to sit in front of a guitar, I have to really concentrate and I have to really think about what it is I’m trying to do, and the results always feel a bit more interesting. And again, I don’t really like the word, but honest, because I’ve just taken a bit of time to really think what I’m doing.

Lauren Martin

Do you mean almost like, when you say reclaim but you don’t own them, you mean reclaim them from the indie, macho loudness wars and just put it back into a private space?

Jam City

Yeah, I suppose so. I really don’t want to be on record saying I reclaimed guitars at all. But I suppose I just... They’re also a relatively easy instrument to learn, comparatively, that’s what punk was all about, really, and it’s a great addition to all the types of things you can do with a laptop and a DAW. So yeah, I don’t know, I like the sound of guitars, I really do, and they make me go to a very personal place and make me think about very deep memories and stuff like that. It’s a sound that feels very meaningful to me in whatever context it is, however it’s processed, or whatever it feels like. It kind of triggers something deep in my subconscious that whenever I hear it, it feels really meaningful to me.

Lauren Martin

You also used your voice on this record and it’s kind of the first time we get to hear you with your voice in there and it’s, again, it’s smudged in with the general effect of the sound. Tell me a little bit about... You maybe didn’t have a choice financially in what you were using, but there are aesthetic choices that you make when you make your own music. So tell me about that aesthetic choice.

Jam City

Yeah, I mean, it was just like... I’ve always been... I mean, I think obviously everyone is drawn to songs. And I think it took me a while to figure out how to do that, but I always wanted to do that. And even on Classical Curves there’s weird little snatches of vocals and breaths and things buried in the mix. And it just feels like you’re hijacking the song by inserting yourself into it. And again, it feels good, it feels like a part of you. You embedded something quite pure... Not pure, I don’t like that word. You’ve embedded something quite meaningful, and maybe vulnerable as well, deep into the fabric of the sounds. And I say that as a listener really, mainly. I’m always compelled to songs with voices. Singing, spoken word, rapping, whatever. It’s just the hook that draws me in, you know? That and... Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren Martin

There’s something very warmly ambiguous about this kind of sound, that you’re able to put a sound out... Not even about being madly in love or being depressed or a triumph or a sorrow. It’s about these gray spaces where you just want to be left alone. Is that something that you think about when you’re making music?

Jam City

What, wanting to be left alone? [laughs] No, I think... I mean, I suppose what you said at the start as well, being somewhere around other people, listening to music. That is sort of important to me. I mean, another thing as well is that I never want to... The one thing I really don’t want to have is an artistic temperament in my life. I really strive to not be that person that’s just, “Give me my solitude to create.” Like seal me in my anechoic chamber and no one knows my genius has been expelled. And again, I think it speaks to the conditions under which a lot of us probably make music, is that we’re doing it wherever we can, whenever we can. And so there’s perhaps something in that then that... I don’t know, you use whatever spaces you can to get as deep as possible inside yourself. But you also come out of that and are a nice person.

I mean, I guess I just think about this a lot, the conditions under which you need to create music, and I’ve never had a studio, and I think occasionally I don’t quite like working in studios. But, you know, you use what you have and I think you can... I never want to be sealed off from the world when I create. I like being around people, and I actually like working in cafes as well. Occasionally. I don’t always have to, particularly now, but it’s nice to be around people and be a functioning member of society and just... It’s a job like any other. You’re just getting on with it and using that time and that space to get as deep inside yourself as you can.

Lauren Martin

So speaking of studio, as in other people, we’ve talked a lot about you, so let’s talk about the other people that you work with. You played quite a big role as a writer and a co-producer on an album by an artist called Kelela. Her album came out... Actually, I realized it was this week, exactly a year ago, that her album came out.

Jam City

Wow, time flies.

Lauren Martin

So there’s a singer from Washington, DC, called Kelela, and she put out an album last year called Take Me Apart, which you played a big role in. And I would like to play, in full...

Jam City

The Kelela fans in the audience.

Lauren Martin

Yeah, if we’ve got some Kelela, we’re happy. [applause]

Jam City

Feels good.

Lauren Martin

You have arrived, sir.

Jam City

Oh you know, give it...

Lauren Martin

Can we please have video number three in full, please?

(video: Kelela – “Frontline”)

[applause] I like how you just said Kelela.

Jam City

Kelela.

Lauren Martin

But you’re in there too.

Jam City

Ladies and gentlemen, Kelela.

Lauren Martin

Ladies and gentlemen, Kelela. She is amazing. Now we’ve talked a lot about you and the very private, intuitive way of making music. Now you go in and work with a vocalist, another person in the room, tell me about making that creative leap into that space.

Jam City

Yeah, I mean, I was kind of dropped in the deep end a little bit, in that I lived in America for a little bit. I lived on the east coast and then I lived in LA for a year. And when I first moved there, I got set up on a session at Jason Derulo’s house.

Lauren Martin

Oh wow.

Jam City

So yeah. I didn’t meet the man. Sadly, I didn’t make the album. I was really nervous. Kelela and I worked together on some stuff, but it was always over email. And it was when I was in LA that I got more involved with that record. But yeah, in terms of working with other people, that was literally one of my first sessions, and it’s weird because, as I say, making music on your own... I did two solo records by that point, and it was... It gets very, very myopic and claustrophobic, in a way. And I kinda feel... I love making music on my own, but I feel that getting into production for other people and co-writing with people more kind of saved me from insanity a little bit, because like I said, I always wanted to be in a band, and suddenly you can be in that situation with other people where you’re just bouncing ideas off of each other.

And so this first session I had in this crazy mansion, an empty house, Jason Derulo in residence. What surprised me was going into as someone who makes quite personal music, or niche music. You know, the stuff we’ve played earlier is very specific to me and who I am. Going to that situation feeling like how the fuck am I going to be useful to these people in any way? How do I fit into this puzzle? But the thing I found out that day, and has honestly subsequently not really changed in any of the people I’ve met for sessions and worked with, whether they’ve gone somewhere or whether they haven’t gone anyway, is just how lovely people are. And I really mean that, in the sense that I’ve never... Don’t get me wrong, there are difficult times when you’re working with someone else, but I feel that I’m lucky enough to have all the experiences I’ve had working with other people is that they all always start off at this place of emotional vulnerability that you both have to enter before you can do anything. So you have this weird thing where you have to get very, very deep with someone very, very quickly. And that doesn’t feel intimidating at all. And that feels, actually, very nourishing.

And yeah, then I remember this session I had right at the start of this whole process was just, you just sit around, and yeah, you play your favorite records for people for hours and hours. And you talk about this and that and you learn stuff. And again, I’m continuing my musical education through other people. The amount of things I’ve learned off other people in sessions is just insane. I was working with another writer, Sarah Aarons, who’s an amazing songwriter, and ended up getting a piano lesson from her. And it’s just these kind of situations where, whilst they are high pressure on the surface, they can be really quite beautiful and quite nourishing and it’s a kind of a new phase of my career, I guess, in the last two or three years where I’ve been doing more and more of that, that I really love and is kind of integral to me as a musician now, you know? It’s always getting in the room with someone else and seeing what happens, you know?

Lauren Martin

A lot of people in this room are becoming adults at a time when there’s so many conversations about power and the dynamics between people, especially between men and women. And young men and women are always having now to rethink how they talk to each other, how we interact with one another, how to do that with kindness and awareness, and all these things. And we all try to live our lives in that way. When you go into a studio with other people, especially women, especially black women, what kind of conversations do you have about how to best represent their ideas and how best to get them down on paper and then, on a record, in a way that feels, like you say, nourishing and honest without being exploitative?

Jam City

That’s a good question. But I mean, it’s also... It’s simple. You literally just go and try and make good music. And honestly, 80% of the time, I’m just in the background, just trying to help organize someone’s thoughts. And I really mean this in a nice way, but I feel like again, my role as a producer, or whatever, a co-writer, in a lot of ways is to... You end up being someone’s therapist. And I think that it’s the same for me as well, a little bit. But I’m fine to play that role. One thing about producing is that working with other people is the... You learn very quickly that your idea isn’t always the best one in the room. And someone’s always got a better idea than you. And to be honest, if you don’t get over that, then things go south very quickly.

But as long as you just go in and you just want to make a good song, and again, 99% of the time that’s what the goal is in the session. Sit there and listen, and at times, I’ll steer it in a direction or I’ll have a suggestion for a different... For something that that artist just can’t do themselves. But we’ll establish a point where we want to get to. And then it’s just about getting to that point in the song, and nothing else really matters. And along the way, you have a lot of really deep conversations. You have a lot of very enlightening conversations, and I’ve again, I’ve learnt so much from other people, on a musical level, on a personal level, on a political level. I’m just grateful that I can actually do this as part of my job. It’s that curiosity that you’re talking about. I don’t really have a point to prove, working with people, whoever they are, I just kinda want to make a good song and I’m down for that to lead me wherever it goes. However left field that takes us, then let’s just follow it. Go down the rabbit hole and see what happens, and I’m down for the ride, really. I really don’t want to start and be like, “So why don’t we do things my way?” You know? ‘Cause it just doesn’t work.

Lauren Martin

When we’re talking about being a self-taught musician, having these ways of working that aren’t so formalized or come from training, I remember speaking to Kelela maybe about a year before the album came out, and she was speaking about having quite a visual way of explaining herself, and she was talk about working with Arca on the album. And she would say things like, “This song is about hips. She needs more wind in her hair. We need to go up a mountain.” Saying all these story-telling kinda cues to give hints for the mood of the music. Did you ever have little conversations about...

Jam City

Yeah, that’s Kelela language. So I’m fluent in it now, but it took me a while. But yeah, you learn to take cues from other people. And that’s me, a lot of the time, ‘cause I don’t know how to express myself through theory, really, so I’m just being the one in the room that’s like, “More,” or whatever. Like, “More this,” or, “More that.” Or, like, “It’s just not quite working,” or like... Every single time you meet someone new, they’ve got their own language of getting things across and you pick that up pretty quickly, you learn to read their cues and try and get to that point where you’ve got a really cool thing that’s in the making.

Lauren Martin

Do you feel like your language has changed, then? Maybe not the same as Kelela’s, up the mountain, but, you know, do you feel like your language, about how to communicate about what you want out of a song has changed from collaborating?

Jam City

Yeah. Well, it changes every single different session. But that’s why that time at the start of the session is so important to literally just trade YouTube links and just talk about life, talk about what you’re going through. And yeah, you pick up a way of working together very quickly. And yeah, also the thing you said about Kelela is that, it’s effectively... It’s kind of a visual thing, and that’s a really good, easy way for me to work, as well, ‘cause you’re just like, “This needs to be more...” You know? You can find a way to interpret on your own terms, but you effectively understand what she’s saying ‘cause there’s an image there, and there’s a sort of vision there, like a little film or something. So that’s kind of an easy way to work, definitely.

Lauren Martin

I’d like to play a track by another vocalist that you’ve worked with quite recently. He’s called Troye Sivan. He’s an Australian singer, and you contributed to some of his most recent album, Bloom.

Jam City

Yes.

Lauren Martin

Yes. It’s a amazing record. This is the last track on the album, “Animal.”

Jam City

Yep.

Lauren Martin

Is it the last one? Yeah. I love this record. So who else worked on this record with you?

Jam City

A lot of people.

Lauren Martin

A lot of people.

Jam City

Yeah. Bram Inscore, Alex Hope, other people, Ariel Rechtshaid, on this one, as well. And it’s again, Troye’s an interesting one because he’s a real music head, and he had this really cool playlist that he sent to us before he started work on the record that had The Replacements on it, and it had a lot of kind of new wave, a lot of goth-rock. All things that I love, and again, when an artist comes in and they give you those things to work with, like saying, “This is my kinda language. I know I’m a pop star but this is the feeling that I wanna draw on, and just do it Troye Sivan style,” then it’s like a gift, ‘cause you’re just like, “This is brilliant. This is so much to work with, here. We can go off in any direction, I know exactly what to do.”

And also with Troye as well, there’s another one that he did on there, called “The Good Side,” and weirdly, it was a nice... There’s a bit at the end where there’s just four bass notes repeating, on a loop. And it was a nice, weird little throwback to Classical Curves, in a way, ‘cause it’s just this weird thing, where it was just super minimal, only lasted for four bars. And it was just this nice little full circle moment where I felt that’s just the kind of thing that I would have wanted to do back then, but it was in a totally different context, so that felt good.

But yeah, “Animal” is another one, and a lot of amazing people worked on that behind the scenes. And yeah, Troye.

Lauren Martin

Let’s listen to “Animal” by Troye Sivan.

(music: Troye Sivan – “Animal”)

[applause] So we started off with instrumental, electronic music, and we’ve come all the way round to very clear, very personal voices. Lots of space and movement in a very, very different way from what you started out with. You say that you’re lovingly part of a bigger whole when you’re in these kind of sessions, but what has writing really beautiful pop songs with other people taught you about your own sound? Because you’re still a musician in your own right as well as working with everyone. So that kind of juxtaposition, how do you think about that?

Jam City

Yeah, I mean again, it’s learning so much from other people. And it’s learning technical things, like how to put together a song, and learning about other people’s experiences that make you reevaluate your own. And you take all of that back into your own work. I actually haven’t had much time to work on my own music for a while now, actually,’cause I’ve kinda been sucked into this world, and I love it, and I kinda don’t wanna stop, but I do also want to work on my own music. And I think that yeah, I don’t know. It’s just I’ve gained so much confidence from other people as well, who’ve sort of encouraged... I mean, Kelela as well, would force me to play things live on the keyboard, and it’s just... And that is invaluable, to have someone else be like, “No, no, no you’re heading in the right direction. Keep doing that.” And yeah, you take all that and you put it back into your own music. And, I don’t know. Working with other people teaches you to be really patient, as well. And teaches you how to really listen to other people and to what they’ve entrusted with you to get across as well.

So you know, these are all skills that can be applied anywhere. And in life, as well. Music aside for a moment, I like to think that the work I do as a musician has some positive relationship with who I am just as a person. And I mean, it’s not for me whether to say whether that’s successful or not, but I’d like to think that the things you learn about when you have to work with people under those very, very specific and quite hard conditions sometimes, you bring back into your own life, aside from, you know, your solo records. Yeah, so I mean, hope kinda has a positive impact there, as well.

Lauren Martin

Well, it seems to be working fine musically, so I’m sure everybody thinks you’re just lovely. Don’t worry.

Jam City

Thanks, guys.

Lauren Martin

So you are actively working on some solo things, in a sense.

Jam City

Always, yeah, always.

Lauren Martin

Oh, hello? No, no you’re there. Don’t worry.

Jam City

Hello?

Lauren Martin

Hello. Hello, again. You are working on things within the Jam City universe, not just Jack in the studio with other people. You started a label this week.

Jam City

Yeah, unofficially, yeah. It’s just a home. It’s a home for things that I just really like, and I think deserve to be heard. So yeah, it’s a label in that sense, yeah.

Lauren Martin

And can you tell me some more about it?

Jam City

I think one thing is there’s so much music that gets made now to a point where it’s got a bit ridiculous for me, because there’s just hours and hours of music that I’ve made with other people, that other people have sent me to work on, and a lot of it’s really lovely. And also I’m at a weird... And very grateful to be at a point where people send me their music just to listen to. And occasionally, you’ll have your mind blown by something.

And I mean, this is the case with Fauness, who’s an artist whose record we’re putting out in the... This winter, I guess. Who sent me a bunch of songs and they had such a clear vision. And she’s a singer, songwriter, producer. And yeah, had such clear vision and a unique way of seeing the world and seeing both... Navigating her subject... Position as a woman, and also she has interesting environmental issues as well, and all these things are... I feel make great topics for songs. And it’s rare that I get something where all that has kinda coalesced together, and that was just something that I felt needed to be heard for other people. And her video just came out yesterday, actually. So yeah, it’s a home for voices that I feel I want to be heard, and music that I love. It’s really as simple as that, you know?

Lauren Martin

Well, let’s watch that video.

Jam City

Yeah.

Lauren Martin

Can we watch video number four please?

(video: Fauness – “Street Song”)

[applause] So tell me, after working with R&B and pop vocalists and refiguring your own sound through working with him, what do you like most about pop music?

Jam City

The fact that I feel it’s speaking to me directly, and I guess that’s what everyone feels when a song relates directly to their life. No matter who did it and who’s listening to it, it feels like someone is saying something about you and you can get that in top 40 music, you can get that in Troye Sivan, you can get that in Kelela, you can get that in Fauness, whose talking about very specific things. But it’s all pop music to me in a way, I think.

And, again, I feel the same about some of the earlier things we were talking about with club music, house music. It’s got a certain economy to it that it’s all about just getting to the listener or the dancer as quickly as possible. And hitting them and their heart as quickly and as efficiently as possible as well I think. So yeah, that’s what pop music is to me. I have a pretty broad definition of what pop music is but, yeah. Transformative pop music.

Lauren Martin

Transformative, I like that. Jam City, thank you very much.

Jam City

Thank you so much, thank you. [applause]

Lauren Martin

Do any participants have a question for Jack?

Audience Member

Hi. I have a semi-technical question but, yeah, the one thing that always struck me about early Night Slugs stuff, and your stuff in particular, and even your later pop work, is that it’s very focused in a way that there’s not much clutter in the way the song is structured, and you were talking about the beauty of minimalism and a build up-y thing and a very minimally constructed drop part that hits even harder through the minimalism of it. And I wanted to ask you if you have encountered any techniques to help you strip down a song or a structured song to its essentials? Because I always find myself cluttering everything and then...

Jam City

Yeah, I do as well. And it only gets to a good point where I strip it all out and just, “I’m going to get rid of everything.” But yeah, it’s just editing I guess, just really trying to edit and get rid of as much as possible. And then you pull it all back in at later stages in a song. On a technical level what I quite like, and especially with pop music... Choruses having as few elements as possible musically and then as you go through the song more get added. And that’s something I did in club music as well, with drums. Just get rid of everything for the main motif, apart from the synth or the melody or the kick drum, and then three minutes you can maybe develop that further with some hi-hats, simple as that. It doesn’t always work but for me that’s one of my go to things that works for me a lot of the time. Yeah, getting rid of everything and then putting it back in at later points.

Audience Member

Hey, this is Octavio. I’m a huge fan of your work and of Night Slugs’ catalog. And I wanted to ask you, how you got this inspiration, for example, on songs like “The Courts,” to grab these tiny microsamples of shoes scratching on the basketball court and all these sounds related to it? Because at the end I feel like a lot of producers right now are using these tools or elements for their songs, but you were doing this back in 2012, and I think that at the end it influenced a lot of the underground club music scene, using these microsamples as percussion elements rather than just background foley. Where did the inspiration to grab these samples come from?

Jam City

Specifically Timbaland was a big, big influence for me, especially growing up as well, because that was at a time when his music and his productions were everywhere. And obviously the famous examples of the Aaliyah song with the baby crying in it, I can’t remember what that one’s called. I can’t remember anything, so I’m sorry. Yeah, so that. Him specifically was, for me, someone who was using really unconventional sounds in a percussive way, and also just an ambience in the music that sounds slightly strange, gives just an atmosphere to something but in a really simple way. Even adding birdsong and stuff, something that I find myself doing a lot, and it always gives another extra element that’s nice.

Lauren Martin

Is that also a little bit to do with the element of surprise? People might expect a certain bass sound or a certain drum sound and then it comes in with a bird or someone’s voice.

Jam City

Yeah, and another thing I like doing is, I don’t know why, but if there’s a bassline that comes in, a dark heavy bassline, like a Reese bass, I layer that with a bird sound. And, again, it’s just this weird juxtaposition that feels weird but just puts you in a weird space where you’re meant to feel two things at once. And I always love that feeling when your heart’s being pulled in two directions at once. Yeah, I quite like doing that. It’s all just Timbaland basically. [laughs]

Audience Member

Hi Jack. My name is Tommy.

Jam City

[looks around the room] Sorry, I don’t know where everyone is.

Audience Member

My name is Tommy and I’m from South London. Got to say, very inspiring in terms of someone who just blends a world of indie sound but makes it acceptable in the sonic world of club music as well. I find that a really interesting balance, that you bridge this gap, which I don’t think anyone’s really pulled off before. But I was just going to ask, obviously you’ve been focusing quite a lot on songwriting, particularly enjoyed the Clara La San mixtape that you did recently.

Jam City

Yeah, she’s amazing.

Audience Member

Incredible.

Jam City

Yeah, Clara La San, for anyone who doesn’t know, is a singer-songwriter from Manchester and she put out a mixtape that I just feel begetted to shout-out because it’s so fucking good. And you’ll unquestionably be hearing more from her somehow soon. She’s amazing.

Audience Member

I hope so. I think she definitely, with the stuff she did with Scratcha [DVA] for example and with a lot of the Gang Fatale lot, I think a vocalist who definitely captures what I think we should do to this club sound, where I don’t think anyone else has really bridged that gap before either. So actually, yeah, it’s quite funny, because both you working together, bridging a gap which was quite unique.

So you’ve been focusing on the songwriting front, but as a club producer, is there anything that you’ve got planned that maybe you could just shed some light on? And even also, what’s your idea of the sonic landscape in terms of club music in London and have you been listening to anything recently that’s perked your interest?

Jam City

Yeah, I’d be lying if I said I was fully abreast of stuff. I need someone to show me what’s going on because I’ve just been in a bit of a hole recently, sadly, because I miss finding new music, I really do. But I make club music or hip-hop instrumentals all the time. I never really stopped making stuff that we played earlier on from Classical Curves, the Club Constructions type things because it’s so fun and it’s so easy as well, it’s just, you don’t think too much about it, you literally just get a groove going and then that’s that.

Yeah, there’s a lot of that stuff that I continue to make because I really love it. Not really any plans to release it at the moment but it will come out somehow and also I like vocalists and I like... It would only really make sense for those things to have someone jump on them. I think that would be worthwhile for them to be heard.

Lauren Martin

There’s also, you have your Earthly mixtapes, which are a really nice gap between that... So Earthly is the name of the label, but there are original productions and edits and remixes in these half-hour to hour-long mixtapes that you put out online.

Jam City

Yeah, definitely. A mix is just a great way of working out your ideas and threading together the things that are informing you and figuring all that out. And in a way Earthly, as a label thing, is just basically the same thing. It’s just things that aren’t me but feel like they speak to me in some way. And, yeah, they’re fun to do as well. It’s a nice way of arranging your… That’s an art school thing in a way, because we were always really encouraged to record everything and keep sketchbooks and it’s just like a sketchbook of just things that are loose and around. You feel like they mean something bigger than the sum of their parts, group them together, move on to the next thing.

Lauren Martin

I think especially with the music you make, mixes are just a legitimate form of putting music out into the world as an album in many respects.

Jam City

Yeah, especially if they’re your own music, especially if they are your… The last Earthly mixtape was more my productions and collaborations with some other people and, yeah, every year or two now it feels good to just gather everything up that doesn’t have a home at that point and put it all together. And it’s a nice marker of time as well to be like, “Yeah, this was a period where I was really into this or this or that,” and you can go back and draw on it. It’s fun to do.

Lauren Martin

Did you have a question as well? Yeah.

Audience Member

Hello, I’m Sequoyah, I’m from Atlanta.

Jam City

Nice to meet you.

Audience Member

Nice to meet you as well. So on huge pop songs, like the song “Frontline” with Kelela, or the song “Animal” that you did with Troye, I know that the production teams are a big collaborative effort. So you mentioned that you came in, Ariel Rechtshaid came in, there’s a lot of other people too that you said work more behind the scenes. So I’m interested in knowing, on songs like that, is there a person, a producer, whose specific task it is to provide the unifying sound for huge songs like that? Like the subtle autotune or the... Do you know what I mean? Maybe the trappish-type sounds. Because in those three songs, although they’re from different artists, there are unifying factors that let you know that it’s pop music from 2018, do you know what I mean? But at the same time I’m wondering if it’s your job to bring in the very individual sound or your own specific flavor to the mix, but then once different producers come in who bring their subtle individual flavor, is there someone who’s there, who’s like, “OK, and now I have to put it...” I don’t know how to explain it, almost put this lens on it that makes it pop. Once you add your flavor do they come in and add the autotune and the...

Jam City

Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think the short answer is it changes constantly and one thing about working with other people is...

Audience Member

Changes? How the industry changes?

Jam City

Yeah, but also artist to artist. All artists want different things and all artists want different things of different parts of you for when you work together. The Kelela record, for example, I’m credited on that as an executive producer, whatever that means, but on a real level a lot of that is just because, aside from the four or five songs that I wrote and produced for it, it was my task to just, as you said, smooth things out and unify things to be honest.

Audience Member

So in the example of the Kelela album, you were actually that person.

Jam City

Yeah, in that one I was. Not in the Troye one. And it’s a unique thing to be in and also it’s very specific to me being there at the time and helping out. But it was just things like… What’s the song? God, I can’t remember what it’s called.

Audience Member

Which track number is it?

Jam City

I don’t even know.

Audience Member

I listen to it, I bump it in my car so I know.

Jam City

Cool. Fuck. It’s the one… Is it “Turn To Dust?” Yeah, so that one was really complicated because it’s mainly Arca who did it, but then I redid it and then it became a job about fusing our two versions together. And so my job in that sense was really to just be an editor and ultimately that was something… And Kelela, it was her job to be an editor too. And she had a vision, she saw a way through all these parts, and it was hard for me to see that at first because there were so many different things going on in the track, hundreds of stems, just absolute fucking bane of my life is stems. I can’t tell you how much I hate them. I hate them so much.

Jam City

But it was about trying to sift through all of that and just be like, “Is this right? Is this right? Is this right? No, no, no. Yes, yes, yes. OK, we’re moving towards something good.” And that’s nothing musical for me at all, it’s all Alejandro [Ghersi, aka Arca] and Kelela and the writers for that song. But, yeah, your services are required to help someone get through something in a coherent way. Does that answer the question? OK, I’m around, so yeah...

Lauren Martin

You can definitely catch up in some more detail. Should maybe take the one just back there, yeah.

Audience Member

Hey.

Jam City

Hi.

Audience Member

I really like how you mesh these styles together like goth-rock and post-punk wave with R&B. But this question what I have is, how do you see the future of pop music? I know it’s a difficult question, but do you think that’s a thing, meshing more styles together and just give a shit of it? Going for a specific genre even more?

Jam City

I mean, if I’m completely honest I really hate the idea that the future of pop music, and this might sound alarmist, is algorithmic or AI-based. I know that sounds a bit sci-fi, but honestly we live in a time, culturally, where everything is… I don’t know what the technical terms are but everything is an algorithm, everything is judged and decided by numbers, basically. And I sometimes meet people when I’m in LA who talk about this like it’s some bold, brave new world and it’s really exciting that we’re going to basically let the machines write the perfect pop songs for us. And obviously I think we’re a bit far off that, of course, but there’s a genuine sentiment to that that those people believe and I fucking hate it and it pisses me off. Not everything can be crowdsourced and algorithmized, or whatever the word is. It’s funny because working collaboratively with lots of people, it happens more and more and more, like credits on a Kanye record, 20 or 30 people in it. And that’s cool in many ways but also it’s this approach that you’re going to reverse engineer the perfect pop song that I think is just fucking ridiculous. And it really annoys me because I just feel like, at its core, you can have whatever technology you need, I very much welcome technological advancements in sound design and also cultures being fused and referenced and meshed together and all these things that are symptomatic of modern pop music. But the one thing that I just feel is just so stupid and I’m really against, is this idea that, yeah, we can... That the answer to a piece of music that moves people and speaks to them can be reverse engineered and can be assembled through this numbers game.

Does that make sense? I’m not an expert on these technological things so I don’t really know what I’m talking about, but I see it sometimes and it’s a big change that’s happened with music consumption, more so than the writing stuff. And it’s a big question mark really about the future of pop music specifically, and it’s going to have a knock on effect to the underground because those things are symptomatic.

My friend Mat Dryhurst actually, is really good about this stuff. So if you can find him online or something, I feel like he’ll answer your questions. But, yeah, I don’t know if that makes sense. Fuck the machines. [laughs / applause]

Lauren Martin

Can we maybe take one more? That would be great, thank you.

Audience Member

Hey, I’m Mira. Really inspired by what you’ve said today. I’m just interested in knowing if you have any specific ways of making yourself comfortable or making people in the room comfortable when you collaborate, for example Kelela? If there is anything special that you want to have in the room or any equipment or elements or thoughts? How to make it flow-y and how to start the flow going.

Jam City

Yeah, I think it’s probably different for every single artist. Some people that’s not an issue for at all, and they’re just ready to go. I’ve had sessions with people and within five minutes they’re not actually interested in having a conversation and talking about personal life, they literally come in and they’re like, “Right. Beat.” Play ten, 15 beats. “OK, I’ve got an idea.” Half an hour later we’re done. On to the next one, that’s amazing.

And also some things, again, it’s about forging a very specific relationship with an... I say friendship really, with an artist that nothing is going to happen musically for maybe a year, but you’re committed enough to what they want to do and you think that there’s amazing potential there and it’s just a process of waiting and forging a sense of trust with them.

It’s weird, I actually do find it quite easy to make myself at home with strangers, but I know not everyone is and I know that that’s quite difficult. Yeah, but everyone’s different. I think one turning point I had as well was... Well two things I suppose. One was just learning, as a rule, to go in there with no expectations, but maximum preparation, and just making sure that you’ve got enough things to give them musically. But at the same time having absolutely no... “I’m not going to write anything today.” Let alone something good. So that’s one thing.

And the other thing was being prepared to allow anything to make the song. I don’t know how to describe this, it’s almost like this could be our topic [picks up a glass] or this could be [picks up a mug] and it’s not interesting at all but it’s the exact thing that sparks off this chain reaction that someone’s like, “Coffee, OK, black coffee in the morning, OK, waking up, bed, last night, hangover, ex-girlfriend, ex-lover,” or whatever like that. So in a way, that openness to everything, to any direction things are going in, can often be a good way to allow things to happen in a comfortable way. You’re not just like, “I don’t know, are we going to write a song about a coffee cup?” Nothing’s off the table. And I feel like as long as you’re go in with that and you’re... Then I think people respond to that a bit better and a bit more comfortable.

Lauren Martin

So just a lack of shame and a big heart.

Jam City

Yeah, and just go where it takes you, I think that’s what’s worked for me. And, don’t get me wrong, I’ve had hundreds of sessions and nothing has come out of it. I’ve had loads of sessions and we’ve written things that I think are amazing but they don’t go anywhere. And it’s just a process. And I’m lucky as well that I have my own music when that world gets a bit too much sometimes, because it does. It can be hard a lot of the time. But then I can retreat for a few months and be like, “Maybe it’s time for me to just make music for myself for a bit and then I’m going to get back into it.“ You know, recharge a little bit.” It’s about that balance I think.

Lauren Martin

Jam City, thank you very much.

Jam City

Thank you. Thanks. [applause]