Kardinal Offishall

Anupa Mistry

OK, so I have someone here with me who... well if you’re talking about Canadian music and you don’t know his name, then you don’t know Canadian music. And I want to stress music in particular, not just hip-hop. Because what this person does is commendable and is a landmark achievement for a musician from this country regardless of genre. Please join me in welcoming Kardinal Offishall.

Kardinal Offishall

Thank you for that by the way.

Anupa Mistry

You’re welcome. So we're here in beautiful Montréal. But you’re from Toronto, I’m from Toronto and it seems like Toronto plays a prominent part in the pop music narrative right now. You’ve been lucky in your two-decade long career to kind of see all different parts of this country. I mean what comes to mind for you when you think of hip-hop and Montréal?

Kardinal Offishall

It’s interesting because I think what’s ironic for me about understanding the Montréal hip-hop scene more was going to France, because it’s like when you grow up, everybody, we all know about the preconceived biases that we have. Like anybody that’s from Toronto and knows about Toronto, there’s always a very friendly Toronto versus Montréal type of culture. Even though we both have love and respect for each other's city, but I think it was when I really started going to France were I was like, “Ah, this is just like Montréal.” And then I would go back for another show and we’d go all over France, and then when I came back... sometimes that’s what happens is it’s like, you go away and you kind of fall in love more with the things that are close to you and have always been very close to you, but what I love about the hip-hop scene here is the fact that it’s always been very self-sufficient and it didn’t really rely on what was going on in the rest of the country, much less Toronto. Not just with hip-hop but just music in general.

There’s so many artists that can sell like 100,000; 150,000; 200,000 units in just Quebec alone and we maybe in Toronto have no clue or idea of who that artist was, and to me that’s always something that I always admired. It’s that same type of passion that I identify in several places that I’ve been to around the world. That’s why I’ve always been, since the first day that I went back in 1999, I’ve always been a fan of the UK music scene, because also they have a scene that kind of fuels itself.

It’s not like so... I think affected by what goes on in the States like how Toronto is – and I’m sure we’ll probably get to that a little bit later – but we’ve always had this big brother, but treat him like a step brother, second cousin type of relationship with America, so yeah. That’s always been our dilemma, but I like the scene here because it’s like whenever you come here and you’re introduced to the new sounds and the new people it’s dope because they’re already rocking, and they don’t really care if you know who they are or not. Like the Montréal scene and the Quebec scene supports itself. Obviously there’s people like Kaytranada and those people that have kind of transcended everything but it’s like, yeah there’s a lot of amazing people here within music and just the arts in general.

Anupa Mistry

And part of the reason for that is the cultural makeup here is different than it is in a primarily English speaking city like Toronto. A big part of the Toronto music, or certainly the Toronto hip-hop narrative has to deal with the West Indian community in Toronto, which is made up of primarily Jamaican people, people from Guyana, Trinidad, Barbados. Here, there are a lot of immigrants from French speaking countries, so Haitians, people from parts of West Africa. How have you seen that play out in the music scene here?

Kardinal Offishall

It’s still playing out if you ask me. It’s still in the growing process, because I think no matter what scene it is, it’s always going to bubble up and get to a point of having to explode and having to seep into the ecosystems in other places. I think with people like Kaytranada and others and, obviously, I was here a couple of months ago with the Fool’s Gold Festival, and people like A-Trak, you’re always going to have a handful of people that get through and then help to deliver the message and spread the message of what’s going on back home. I think what’s going on now, and especially with Kaytranada winning the Polaris the other day, it’s going to bring a lot more shine and spotlight to Montréal.

Anupa Mistry

Your family is from Jamaica. You were born here, if I’m correct.

Kardinal Offishall

Mm-hmm.

Anupa Mistry

Can you talk a little bit about what your family experienced immigrating to Toronto?

Kardinal Offishall

Well, for those that aren’t familiar and there’s a lot of people, ironically, everybody talks about how Toronto is the spotlight and people talk about Toronto, but they don’t really talk about the legacy and the story of Toronto and how it got to where it is right now. In terms of the Caribbean community, a lot of it was a great brain drain that happened in the West Indies. They actually went to those different islands looking for professionals, looking for teachers, looking for doctors, engineers, nurses, the whole nine yards. That’s how a lot of my family ended up leaving Jamaica to come here, so we had same thing. We had nurses, we had teachers, professors that came to Canada, but also for my family, went to London, went to Chicago, Florida.

Of course, instead of picking the warm lovely place of Florida, my family said, “Let’s go to cold-ass Toronto,” but yeah, my parents actually met here. Even though they’re both from Jamaica, they actually met here. My mom I think when she was either in teacher’s college or something of the sort, she used to work with my aunt, so she actually met my aunt on the job. I think they used to work at The Bay or something and...

Anupa Mistry

That’s a department store?

Kardinal Offishall

Right. My dad, obviously, being my aunt’s brother, used to hang around and say, “Who’s that?” Eventually, that’s what us guys do. We hunt and trap and make babies in life, so that’s how my family got together. My family, we came up in the ’70s and that’s when a large, large, large portion of people came from the Caribbean, not just Jamaica. It was during Pierre Trudeau, when he was in power, because he was the one that...

Anupa Mistry

Former prime minister.

Kardinal Offishall

Former prime minister, yeah, the father of the guy that’s there now. He was the one that actually had interesting policies when it came to immigration and opened the doors to a lot of people to immigrate to the country, so it’s actually a very similar story that a lot of immigrants share that came to Canada back in those times.

Anupa Mistry

We’ll obviously get into this a little bit more, but I want to lay the groundwork for talking about your music. I just want you to briefly fill everyone in in on why the West Indian community in Toronto is so crucial to our cultural identity as a city?

Kardinal Offishall

I like the way that you put that. I think, to be completely honest, any musician, any artist, anybody that participates within the arts, the ones that have flourished have been the ones that have been true to themselves and true to what their story is, no matter how glamorous it was, or how much of a reflection of the atrocities that it is.

I think that’s like when you think about the story of hip-hop, it’s kind of ironic, but at the same time, it’s not an irony that they attribute the beginning of it to Kool Herc, who was a Jamaican, and brought the whole sound system culture to the Bronx, you know what I’m saying? Like there’s a certain vibrancy and a certain similarity that exists between I think what was happening in the Bronx, you know what I’m saying, during the time that hip-hop, or at least the name hip-hop was given birth to, there was a similarity between what was happening there and I guess some of the stuff that was happening with the ghetto youths in Jamaica.

I think when it comes to Toronto, with there being... it’s funny. I think it was his nephew. I went to school with Kool Herc’s nephew, you know what I’m saying, and that was just random. He’s like, “Yeah, you know, that’s my uncle.” I was, like, “Well, he’s Jamaican, so it makes sense.” It happens. Anybody who is Jamaican you know that you’re probably related to somebody important down the line.

I think in terms of the genetic makeup of Toronto, for us to be true to who we were, some of our earlier greats were people like Michie Mee, people like the Dream Warriors, people like Maestro Fresh Wes. This was way before my time, but if you look at it, Maestro’s family is Guyanese, the Dream Warriors are from, where are they from? I think like St. Kitts or something. Don’t mind me. Jamaicans, we’re very egotistical. We only care about the big islands. We don’t really pay much attention to the smaller islands but, yeah, pretty much anybody who is doing anything in the scene in the early days of Toronto, all had Caribbean roots, so for us to really and truly be who we were and be true to ourselves, we had to reflect what our lineage was and what our culture was.

Because especially at the time I guess when the scene was forming within Toronto, it’s like we, for the most part, did not want to just copy and emulate what was going on in the States. We wanted for the world to know who we were and, obviously, within our story it went in waves. But, initially, I remember being a little kid and I used to live in a place called Flemingdon Park and I remember when Michie Mee back in, like, 1987 or something, came to the hood. She was shooting a video in Flemo and she brought this red drop-top Porsche or something, you know what I’m saying? So as a kid I remember my first I guess local superstars and local heroes to me, those were the types of things that they emulated.

It’s like if you think about somebody that’s from your city, somebody like Michie Mee who embraced her culture and her lineage from day one and, then, you think about just in the grand scheme of things, you look at hip-hop, the bigger picture, and you have like KRS-One who, a year before, comes out with “The Bridge Is Over,” you know what I’m saying? And for a lot of people, if you do your history, if you’re not familiar, “The Bridge Is Over” is arguably one of hip-hop’s most important songs and especially, definitely one of the most important battle songs, you know what I’m saying, because it’s like within the past couple of years, this whole battle/beef thing has been picking up, and you see amazing songs like “Back to Back” that are becoming these anthemic songs, you know what I’m saying? Like it’s more than just the battle or the beef, but this has been happening for decades and decades within hip-hop.

“The Bridge Is Over,” the majority of the people I think that love the song were not thinking about how KRS-One was totally just demolishing MC Shan at the time. They were just like, “The song is just super dope and super ill.” It’s like if you’re looking at one of the greatest hip-hop songs that ever came out, you’re looking at Michie Mee and all these other variables. That just gave birth to people like me who is like, “Oh, this is what we’re supposed to do,” you know what I’m saying? We’re supposed to embrace it and big up who we are. I think from those times, even as a little kid, those were the things that planted the seeds to grow into what it became.

Anupa Mistry

That means it’s only natural that your first single, which is a song called “Naughty Dread,” would sound like this.

(music: Kardinal Offishall – “Naughty Dread” / applause)

Kardinal Offishall

Yo, the wild thing about that song is...

Anupa Mistry

That came out in 1996.

Kardinal Offishall

It did. Oh, it’s the 20 year anniversary.

Anupa Mistry

It sounds like it came out yesterday.

Kardinal Offishall

It’s my anniversary. The wild thing about that song is that that song and, this is ironic, actually got me my first publishing deal with Warner/Chappell Music.

Anupa Mistry

You were how old?

Kardinal Offishall

I don’t know. At the time, let me see, 20. 20, or just turning 20, or one of the two. The person that heard that, Anne-Marie Smith from Warner/Chappell, she’s like, “I don’t know what this is, but this is fucking crazy, and I need to sign him, and blah blah blah.” What she didn’t know at the time was that I sampled Bob Marley, and there was no way she was going to get any publishing from that. It’s probably not the smartest thing to do, but she’s a genius for doing it. It’s crazy, and I had to... not [that] I had to, but because we couldn’t afford to pay producers at the time, I produced that song myself, too. Yeah, getting that publishing deal and at the time, I will say, because this will come up later on, at the time, the money that I thought I was getting, I was like, “Holy shit.” At the time, I was dead-ass broke. They offered me this publishing deal for all this money, and I was like, “Oh, shit. It’s about to be on now.” I paid for my university bills. OSAP, I don’t know if they have that in...

Anupa Mistry

Student loans.

Kardinal Offishall

Student loans, paid my OSAP, gave my mom some money, and probably had a few thousand dollars left to buy an ASR, an ASR-10. Yes, I’m dating myself. It’s an Ensoniq machine. All you producers know about it because it’s the greatest machine ever built. Yeah, that song, that was really the jump-off for a lot of stuff, because it was through that publishing deal that I was able to also go to the studio and create my first independent album called InI.

Anupa Mistry

Can you talk a little bit about the sample that’s on that track?

Kardinal Offishall

I don’t know if I should. No, it’s too late now. Plus, I know Stephen Marley, so it’s cool. You know what, it was one of those things for us. For me, that was was my perfect first song, because I think, just listening to it, I’m laughing at how I program stuff and how I EQed it and whatever. I think what was awesome was that it’s like for us. And when that song came out, and that’s called the Eglinton West mix of the song, there’s actually a version that’s like, I don’t even remember what area I named the original, but that’s called the Eglinton West mix of the song because it’s like, if anyone knows anything about Toronto, Eglinton West, that’s like Little Jamaica. That’s where you’ll go and have all the Caribbean stores and the food and the people and the whole nine yards.

It’s like when that came out, it was... People just had a lot of admiration for wanting it being called Eglinton West Mix, but just the vibe of it. You know what I’m saying? It was one of the first times in a long time that there was something that was just totally us, in terms of just a song like that, a sample, that Bob Marley, that, “Dread natty, dread now.” That’s a song we would listen to on a Saturday morning when you’re being forced to clean your parent’s home or if you’re at your aunt and uncle’s house and forced to clean their home. These are the songs... I think it’s like a psychological game that they play. They’d play these nice, amazing reggae songs so it wouldn’t feel like slave labor. That’s what, that’s kind of the vibe that we grow up on. You know what I’m saying? It’s like that's the music, those are the vibes and things that we grew up on. To be able to sample that and put that into a song that represented who we were as young people in our teens and stuff. I think that was... It was really dope and a telltale sign of what would end up starting my whole career. They say for the most part, put your best foot forward and how you start is usually how you’ll end.

Anupa Mistry

I mean, I wanted to play that song not only because it’s your first single. You also won a Juno Award for that, right?

Kardinal Offishall

I don’t remember.

Anupa Mistry

Yeah, you do.

Kardinal Offishall

No disrespect, Junos. Thank you. (laughs) That’s awesome.

Anupa Mistry

I wanted to play that song because everything you’re doing on it, the melody flow, the rhythm, that stuff that is still present in your music today, and you’ve shown a really, really strong command of that stuff. I mean, where did that come from?

Kardinal Offishall

I mean, one thing to note about me is that I came up around a lot of DJs. I grew up with music, you know what I’m saying. My dad was a DJ. He passed, but his record collection, you would see all of them say DJ Soul Prince. My dad was an avid record collector. If you know anything about how the vibes were in Toronto, they were... they were extremely tough. If you were able to be successful in Toronto, you could be successful anywhere, and I say that not exaggerating. The time that we came up, literally, I was telling one of my young Gs today, “You would get bottled off stage if you were whack.” It’s not like he could go on stage, not be good, and people would just be like, “He was okay.” You would literally get food, bottles, all kinds of stuff thrown at you. It was not a very receptive environment. It was like you had to be dope. You had to have a certain type of aggression, and I think that was within our music, but it was just also with it, it was within the shows, and also in the streets. At those times, obviously, the Internet wasn’t around... it wasn’t... things didn’t exist like how they exist now.

It’s like the interaction that we had, I remember there was a time, it was interesting for me and I’m sure it was for him, but there was a time where me and Drake sat down many years ago, before the record deals and all that, and he was explaining to me, you know, how much people cared about what people said online. He’s like, “My generation, that means a lot. If there’s hate online and people are saying negative things about you,” and I was like, “That’s fascinating,” because I was like, “To me, having a gun pointed in my ribs was the way that we knew that people didn’t fuck with us.” It’s not to belittle or try and pretend that those aren’t very valid feelings to what’s going on now, but it’s like, me personally, I would just prefer somebody type something and press enter and me type something and said, “Fuck off,” and close my computer. Way safer. Way safer. (laughs)

Anupa Mistry

Do you do that now?

Kardinal Offishall

Huh?

Anupa Mistry

Do you do that now?

Kardinal Offishall

No, no. I don’t engage. I don’t engage.

Anupa Mistry

The other thing about that track is that it ended up on a compilation album put out by Beat Factory.

Kardinal Offishall

Rap Essentials.

Anupa Mistry

Yes.

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah.

Anupa Mistry

Beat Factory was an independent Toronto label. Do you remember what else was on that compilation?

Kardinal Offishall

Shit.

Anupa Mistry

It’s not a test.

Kardinal Offishall

It feels like one. No, and all my friends are going to be like, “You’re an asshole. You didn’t even see my name on there.”

Anupa Mistry

It’s all your friends who are on it.

Kardinal Offishall

That’s good to note that it was a very close-knit community in Toronto. Before we knew that “do it yourself” was a thing, that’s just what we did. There was a very, very, very vibrant independent scene at the time with people that were taking their own money and they were creating these record labels. Pretty much everybody out on the scene in Toronto at the time had their own label or they were affiliated to a certain label.

Anupa Mistry

Like Capitol Hill.

Kardinal Offishall

For us, for our crew, it was Capitol Hill. Also, Knee Deep Records. Then, you had Groove-A-Lot Records. You had... I can’t remember, Frankenstein had a label. There were all these different labels that all these artists were associated with, and I think it was that kind of “do it yourself,” but also that close-knit community that gave birth to the atmosphere. I really feel like what’s going on in a city and the vibrancy and kind of how you view yourself... For instance, like right now in the UK with grime. Grime’s been around forever and a day but now that it’s starting to get international acclaim – when you go to London or when you talk to your people in London – it’s just creating monsters, because people are all of a sudden super hungry, they’re super hype because the spotlight is on and at any single second anyone can pop. But then also because they’re representing a whole genre and a whole country and a whole movement. I think that’s how it was for us back then, it’s like you had all these ill MCs like Ghetto Concept, ORB, which stood for Original Rude Boy, that gave birth to Jelly Stone. Those guys that came from Rexdale, you had all these guys from the east, G Knight, Sixth Sense, Citizen Kane. Then you had the Choclair, the Saukrates and all these different people. What was going on in the city, if all that shit wasn’t happening at the time I don’t think that the music would have been as urgent. You know what I’m saying?

I think also what happened to inject something that is very, very key, in 1992 was the Rodney King beating. We all know about the LA riots and the ripple effect that it had. Well that ripple came all the way to Toronto and there was actually riots that occurred up and down Yonge Street and because of those riots that happened in Yonge Street, the government invented something or created something rather, that was called the JOY program and that stood for Jobs for Ontario’s Youth. And it was through the JOY program working together with the Toronto Arts Council that they created something that was first called Fresh Elements and the second phase of it was called Fresh Arts and it was through the Fresh Arts program that I was mentored. What happened was with that program they had people from the TV industry, from the radio industry, studios, all these people, they donated their time and their experience to mentor us and it was from that, that came people like who you guys know now as Director X. People like Saukrates, who out of my crew was the first to get a record deal in 1995 with Warner Brothers. Came Choclair, came Jully Black. All these people... sorry that I didn’t mention her earlier because I actually forgot that she’s from Montréal, but Tara Chase who was the female rapper in our crew. She was originally from Montréal and we stole her and brought her to Toronto. But out of that craziness within society, again it trickled down and somehow managed to merge its way into the music. Again, it’s all these different things that just happened in succession that played an amazing part and I think the big boom that happened in Toronto in the early to mid ’90s.

Anupa Mistry

At the same time that this was happening in Toronto, in Vancouver there was a label called Figure IV, started by Sol Guy and he was managing a group called the Rascalz and you guys did a song together and in 1998, you also put out a video for the track. I think Terra Chase makes a cameo in this, am I correct?

Kardinal Offishall

I think so. I haven’t watched it for a while, I’m ashamed of my hair.

Anupa Mistry

No, it’s great.

Kardinal Offishall

It looks mad crazy in that video, I’m just saying.

Anupa Mistry

Yeah, we’re going to take a look at that.

(video: The Rascalz – “The Northern Touch” / applause)

Some fans of that track in here. What did we watch, what did we just watch?

Kardinal Offishall

We watched me with a hairdo that only a young black female should have.

Anupa Mistry

It’s a video for a song by the Rascalz called “The Northern Touch.”

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah.

Anupa Mistry

Featuring yourself, Saukrates.

Kardinal Offishall

I can only do it if I actually rap the chorus otherwise I always forget. It was Rascalz, Checkmate, Kardinal and Thrust, Choclair. Yes, there you go. Those are all of us. I mean that was a wild time and it’s like, I’ll be honest a lot of times it’s hard to just sit still. Because, the interesting thing about there being the first time for something is: there’s only the first time one time and that was the first time that the whole country was united in one song. Being a part of that whole movement was life changing, because it’s like, pretty much before then, even if you had love for something from your city or from the country. You’re like, “It’s kind of cool,” but you wouldn’t really say that in public. That was the first time that the entire country, every single concert was sold out and it was sold out in the way that the kids were... The way those shows were, I had never seen that before, ever, ever, ever, ever. It was crazy because it’s the first time that I think, especially within hip-hop that there was a national pride. But also it’s like, it was kind of a wake up call for us as artists. You know what I’m saying?

It was dope for the country because they’re like, “Fuck, we are dope.” You know what I’m saying? It’s funny when I see this whole 'We The North' campaign with the Raptors and stuff like that. All that really is, is a regurgitation of the atmosphere that gave birth to stuff like “The Northern Touch,” but it was amazing because that’s when we were forced to kind of examine who we were as a country, you know what I’m saying? Because to us, in Toronto especially, the country didn’t go far outside of Toronto. All of a sudden now we are really learning about Vancouver, we are really learning about Halifax and, you know what I’m saying, everything in between. It was really dope for us culturally, because that was the first time that I ever appeared on foreign television, and by foreign I mean BET, which is foreign even if you are in the States. Cheap joke, but... Yeah that’s the first time – tough crowd – first time that we were ever on BET and I remember, you know, after that, there was a time... Quick story:

I was in the Beverly Center, and you know, some Latin guys rolled up on me. And I was like, “Fuck, this is way too stereotypical, like my first time to LA and I’m already going to get like fucking rolled up on by some crazy OGs?” And so they were like, “Hey man.” I was like, “What’s going on, dude?” he’s like, “Was that you in the video on BET?” I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that was me” he was like, “Yo that shit’s crazy” I was like, “Oh respect!” and you know, after the urine dried in my pants, like it was dope, because I was like, “Yo,” like, you know it’s cool to have the love at home, but you know to realize like that, they not just love it, but actually respect it outside of your country’s borders, is like something super dope and again, especially at that time, because literally our country, especially for hip-hop, we had nothing.

Anupa Mistry

That song changed everything. I think, I mean I think for myself, for a lot of people my age, or even younger, and definitely older, that is probably the most iconic Canadian rap song of all time.

Kardinal Offishall

It’s so dope, knowing people like you, “Yo, I grew up on Northern Touch,” you know what I'm saying? Like when people meet me, or they see me, or whatever, and they’re like, “Yo, Northern Touch,” and I’m like “Cool, but there’s other songs”, but like you know what I'm saying.

It’s dope. If somebody is going to recognize or show appreciation for something, it’s something to me that is so special because that song really wasn’t about, it wasn’t about me, and I don’t think it was about any individual artist, it was about what the song represented. You know what I’m saying? And I was just blessed to be able to communicate the hook that brought it all together and just spoke of an ideology.

Anupa Mistry

How did it come together?

Kardinal Offishall

Initially, believe it or not, the labels were going to come together and it was going to be a project that all of them got together and put out, and in regular label fashion, they did not. I remember I got a call, [in] summer. I was having a super crazy time with my allergies, like a box of Kleenex beside me, sneezing 200 times a day type shit, and they like, “Yo, we’re doing this song, can you come to studio?” And I was like, “Of course.” So, I got down to the studio, and it was myself, and Choclair, and Thrust, and I can’t remember if the Rascalz were, if they flew into town or not at that time, but I remember we were all putting it together, and we came up and put the hook, and kind of pieced it together.

What’s amazing is the first time I ever heard that song, Common had come to Toronto and he had a show, and at the end of the show, you know, when everybody was leaving, it might have been DJ Kimo that ran in and, “Yo, I got the test pressing,” and I remember they put it on in the DJ booth and they played it, and like for us like it was magical you know, hearing it put together, but hearing it in a club, like it was fucking crazy. You know what I’m saying? You know, you hear a song sometimes and you just...

I tell people the great songs, people ask me now, “What do you look for? Either from your work with Universal, or just being an artist? How do you go about collaborating with people and how do you know when a song is special?” Sometimes when somebody plays you something, or you hear something, you just, you can’t really describe it with words, it’s really just those vibrations that connect with you and I think that’s why that song was able to connect with so many people around the planet.

Anupa Mistry

It also made an industry impact in terms of the perception of what Canadian hip-hop could be, and its merit, you know? That song was nominated for a Juno Award, you guys performed that song at the Juno Awards. Before Skepta came out and mobbed out at the Brit Awards with a million guys on stage, you guys did that.

Kardinal Offishall

Duly noted that, we turned it down that year, because of I think the lack of respect that we felt that the Canadian industry had for hip-hop at the time. It was a thing with the Rascalz, they were like, “Yo, we want to give it back.” I was like, “What the fuck you want to do that for?” They’re like, “Because we’re trying to make a statement,” and they talked us about and I was like, “Yeah, I’m down” you know what I am saying? It was something they initiated and once they spoke to the rest of us, all of us were with it, you know what I’m saying, in terms of like politely declining.

To this day, I think every time I go to the Junos, when I walk through the door, there’s still like a “Beep, Beep, Beep” because it’s like, it was a big thing, you know what I’m saying? I think it was a statement that we had to make at the time, and that’s the irony of it. Although we showed the power of what Canadian hip-hop could do, the labels at the time were still fronting on us. I think that’s why my first record deal that I signed was with MCA Records in the States. We went to every single label here, and they were all like, “We don’t really want to do it, but if we do do it, we’ll give you lunch money,” and that’s why we went to the States.

Anupa Mistry

Then you moved from that kind of raw sound to this.

(music: Kardinal Offishall – “BaKardi Slang” / applause)

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah.

Anupa Mistry

That was your single, “BaKardi Slang,” which you put out in 2001.

Kardinal Offishall

Mm-hmm.

Anupa Mistry

You were talking about going to the States earlier. I think the first time I saw that music video was on BET, not on MuchMusic.

Kardinal Offishall

Mm-hmm.

Anupa Mistry

That’s not to say MuchMusic didn’t play it first, but that was the power of that song. Also for people who are trying to decode what Drake is saying in that song, you give us the glossary right there.

Kardinal Offishall

I mean, I’ll give you guys the quick story. At the time, I mean – our dollar is still shit – but at the time our dollar was really shit, so in order to get deals we used to either drive to New York, to New York City, or we would drive to Buffalo. Just depending on how much money we had and who was down to drive. There was a day when I was like, “Fuck it, let’s go to Buffalo,” and just get, you know what I mean, just go get fresh, you know what I’m saying, go get some clothes.

Probably got about twenty minutes away, and back in the day – and it was, yes, on cassette – my boy Solitair, who was an MC and a producer, he was playing me the beats that he had made from the night before. That beat came on, and I stopped it and I said, “Make a U-turn, we’re going to the studio, right now, and I need that beat. And I don’t have any money to pay you, but I need it.” Yeah, my vibe at that time was always like... There’s so much to this story, but leading up to that, Saukrates got a deal with Warner Brothers, a dude named Fuzzy, who’s still in the industry till this day. Fuzzy got Saukrates a deal out at Warner Brothers, he kind of fucked that deal off, but at least he had it. Choclair, got signed to Virgin Records up here, and then got signed also, I guess, they did a joint venture with Priority Records in the States. Leading up to that, there were a series of events to where we always had to prove ourselves. So everybody knows about Sway in the Morning. Sway is on Shade 45 and MTV, and interviewed the president. Stuff like that.

Anupa Mistry

Talk show.

Kardinal Offishall

Sway had a legendary show called, him and his partner, Sway and King Tech, the Wake Up Show. If you know anything about that show, at any given time, whenever they had MCs in the house, there’s like 20 MCs. From the Bay. From LA. From wherever. Of course because we were Canadian, I remember when we went on, we were like the three last MCs. They’re like, “Put those guys last.”

That happened every single place that we went in America. Like we had to prove ourselves when we went to... we killed the Sway and King Tech show. We went to... what was it called? Friday Night Flavas, I think, in LA with Mr. Choc and C-Minus, and those guys. Same thing. We used to have to go and kill it over there.

When we used to go to Stretch and Bobbito’s show, like same thing everywhere we went. We had to work overtime, but it was always my dream for people to yell out my city the same way that anywhere we went... like when we went to LA, and we went to a concert they be like, “Yo is Compton in the house? What’s up from West Hollywood?”

You go to New York and they talk about every borough. Brooklyn, Manhattan, blah, blah, blah. Never did anybody ever, ever say Toronto. For me, at that time, I was arrogant, and probably crazy enough to think at some point in time, I’m going to do some shit to where people are going to yell out Toronto.

When I made “BaKardi Slang,” every single thing about the intent of that record was to change the way that people thought about the city that I came from, and ultimately my country. That’s literally why in the hook, “Everybody knows it’s the T dot,” cause I wanted everybody to yell that out whenever they heard that song. That’s why I also spoke about... again we were just kids from the street. I don’t mean that in the like, we were gang-banging type of shit.

I mean like literally we had blue collar parents who were doing what they could to provide for us. None of us were well off. But we had this drive, and we had this idea that if we came together, and pulled our money together, that one by one we’d be able to push one guy to that next level. So that’s what we did with our independent singles. You know what I’m sayin’?

If you go back and you look at the history, it’s funny. My manager was showing me, he went into this shop, and they had all these old 12”s that we had. 12”s are pieces of vinyl. On some of the pieces of vinyl, you’d see on one side would be Choclair and on the other side it would be Kardinal and Solitair. That wasn’t because of anything other than we couldn’t afford for me to have my own vinyl to myself.

So we just split the money, and we’re like, “Alright, you’ll be the A side. You’ll be the B side,” type of thing. That’s literally what we did, up until I got my first deal with MCA. Then with “BaKardi Slang” I just wanted everybody to know who we were. That’s why the very first line says, “We don’t say you know what I’m sayin’. T dot says ya don’t know.” Cos where we come from, we weren’t... the shit that we would hear in the Wu Tang records and anybody. We don’t say, “You know what I’m sayin’? You know what I’m sayin’?” That shit that we would hear from New York... where we came from in Toronto man would say, “Yo. You know what I’m sayin? Yeah don’ know”. You know what I mean? That’s just who we were.

It was crazy because America didn’t know what it was, really – mainstream America. But they’re like, this shit sound crazy. At the time it was really dope because you’d be in Boston and you’d hear a used car commercial come on the radio. “For the best used cars,” and that beat would be playing in the background. Or you go to LA...

Anupa Mistry

The “BaKardi Slang” beat?

Kardinal Offishall

Huh?

Anupa Mistry

The “BaKardi Slang” beat?

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah. That was the wildest thing. You’d be in LA, and they’d be talking about, “For the new cell phone plan, and you’d hear “BaKardi Slang” playing. You know what I’m saying? What was interesting... And we can go on to the next thing, but was so important for me as a person of West Indian heritage, and that has Caribbean lineage, when we went on tour I didn’t realize how powerful the song was, until we went into every city across America.

All of the Caribbean people would come out of the woodwork saying, “Yo, I used to get chased and beat up after school for having an accent, and now because of this song people finally know who I am.” You know what I’m saying? It changed a lot of lives. It was really an incredible thing to witness firsthand across America.

Anupa Mistry

The impact of that, I think, was present in mainstream hip-hop from that point onward. The Clipse put out a song the following year that, I think, has become the definitive single of who they are. A song called “Grindin’”. But then this happened.

(music: Clipse – “Grindin’ (Selector Remix)” / applause)

So that was the selector remix of Clipse’s “Grindin’” featuring...

Kardinal Offishall

Sean Paul, random guy, and Kardinal. Yo, that is very important. It is very important to note this story. I’m in Toronto. Just coming back from the States and it doesn’t matter the name of the club. When I’m in the club in Toronto I go up the back stairwell, where the artists go, or whatever. 'Cause we’re all divas. The door opens up and it’s fucking Pharrell. I’m like, “What are you doing here?” He’s like, “Yo I’m promoting my group N.E.R.D.” I was like, “Oh shit.” He was like, “Yo I fucking love “Ol' Time Killin'.” That’s my fucking shit.” I’m like, “Yo, I fucking love what you doing with those Clipse guys. That shit is crazy.” He’s like, “Yo, we’re going to do a remix.” He’s like, “I’d love to get you on it.” Now, if you guys know anything about the industry, that’s what everybody says all the time. “Love your shit man. We should do some shit together.” 90% of the time, it doesn’t fucking happen. Unless you’re at the Red Bull Music Academy and that’s all you do is collab.

Ironically, literally two days later - mind you this is before sending files over the net - I get a FedEx to the studio. Yes, it is hilarious when you think about it. I got a FedEx and I opened it up and it’s a ProTools session on three DVDs. It was the “Grindin’” files. I’m like, “Holy shit.” Literally that whole thing was done in like 15 minutes. First of all, I couldn’t believe that he actually sent it and I literally just went in, penned it, recorded it, and sent him back five DVDs. Yeah. The whole thing was done within a week. At the time, again, that was unheard of in terms of a super power. Pharrell. That was the first. You know how Pharrell did this. He peaked, he slowed down a little bit, and then he’s freaking a monster again. This was that time when The Neptunes were The Neptunes. Being able to work with them and have that opportunity, my brain just exploded at the time.

That verse came out and I was laughing with Anupa because obviously if you guys didn’t recognize the voice, that’s Sean Paul at the beginning who, ironically in terms of a lot of international exposure, I played a small part... we had a song called “Money Jane” that came out maybe 1999 but that did extremely well here and abroad. Me and Sean Paul had a really good relationship since then till now. The middle guy, he was random. Honestly, I was like, “Pharrell, who is that?” It’s just one of his brethren. He’s like “Yo, giving you this shot. I’m going to throw you in between Kardinal and Sean Paul.” He was never heard of again, but he managed to take up a minute and 30 seconds of that song. Hats off to random guy, but yeah.

That song was so key for me. Besides my own music, that was one of my first grand scale features that I was able to land at that time. There was this amazing thing that used to happen called the Mixshow Power Summit where people would literally gather from around the world to this amazing music conference. I remember that I performed that song. It was The Clipse, myself, and actually Super Cat that performed that song live in Puerto Rico. If you Google it, go to YouTube. I think there’s a performance of that for the Mixshow Power Summit. Those times were very, very, very exciting and incredible.

Anupa Mistry

You and I have talked a bit before about the impact that Canadian artists had on what was happening in mainstream American music. I want to show people what you mean a little bit when you talk about that. I’m going to play a Rascalz song, a song called “Top of the World” featuring Barrington Levy, who’s a reggae dancehall legend. Let’s listen to that.

(music: The Rascalz feat. Barrington Levy – “Top Of The World”)

Kardinal Offishall

I actually forgot K-Os was on that song. Shout out to them.

(applause)

Anupa Mistry

Yeah. Shout out to K-Os. That happened but then shortly after that song came out, this song came out. Listen to the hook.

(music: Shyne feat. Barrington Levy – “Bad Boys”)

Kardinal Offishall

Depends on who you ask. It’s not necessarily an accident.

Anupa Mistry

Let’s explain to everyone what we heard. The first song was “Top of the World” by the Rascalz featuring Barrington Levy and then we just listened to Shyne’s “Bad Boys,” which also features Barrington Levy. Talk about the link between those two songs.

Kardinal Offishall

The link is my man Sol G. As a great manager should do, Sol was promoting the Rascalz’s song and album but he also used to work at Bad Boy for a certain stint.

Anupa Mistry

And Shyne was signed to Bad Boy.

Kardinal Offishall

Yep. Without getting into any click bait conversations, the Rascalz, Barrington Levy, Puffy, “Oh my god I need that.” Shyne, Barrington Levy. You can connect the dots or not, but that’s what happens.

Anupa Mistry

Can you talk a bit about Barrington actually? Why is Barrington so influential or iconic?

Kardinal Offishall

Barrington is dope because he has this weird thing in his throat that’s like a human melodyne or like a human auto tune setting. There needs to be an auto tune like a Barrington setting. The things that he can do naturally is wild. I think that’s always been his thing even before it was an actual thing. Barrington, he’s a legend and Red One from the Rascalz, Red is actually Antiguan. He has the Caribbean roots and always loved that song. The hook that they did with the Rascalz is actually a pre-existing Barrington Levy song that they just took in and he sang it over on their joint. With us, there’s always been a lot of participation from the dancehall community. Even with “BaKardi Slang” that we played earlier, it’s crazy because I got a call from this guy. I was in New York on promo and this guy calls me. He’s like, “Yo Kardi!” Like, “Who is this?” He’s like, “Yo, Kardi, I got Bounty Killer on the phone.” It’s fucking DJ Khaled who’s my, at the time... I knew Khaled for a lot of years...

Anupa Mistry

Before he was a Snapchat guy.

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah. Since the late ’90s, like, “I got Bounty on the...” He said, “I got Rodney on the phone.” You know, Bounty comes on the phone and he’s like, “Yo, Kardinal. Want to talk to you about this song “BaKardi Slang.” I love it. The way you’re taking the Jamaican slang with the English ting? I love it. Got to do a remix. Take it to the next level.” Literally, that’s what he said. Within a few days, he just happened to be in New York and myself, him, and I think Richie Stevens at the time were in the studio. The crazy thing about Bounty Killer is, you’ve probably heard these stories about other people, but he was in the studio and the beat’s playing. When you’re in the studio with people, just like studios here, you’re looking at the other person. You’re vibing. Bobbing your head or whatever. He was just like... for an hour straight. I was like... what I didn’t realize, he didn’t write anything down. Whenever he does this thing, he just does it in his head. It didn’t realize what he was doing. It was super awkward for a long time until I realized what he was doing.

We ended up doing a couple collaborations. It’s dope. I went on to work with everybody from Bounty Killer to Spragga Benz to Vybz Kartel. That was actually a connection through Bounty Killer. Most recently, Masika, Stephen Marley. The dancehall community has always embraced me, and a lot of times, just always showing a lot of love and affection for the way that we’ve embraced dancehall in Canada. I think it’s super amazing because from what I told you about how difficult the scene was in Toronto, multiply that times 10, add a fire for Jamaica. It’s not bottles, though. Definitely guns. Yeah. It’s dope because thank god it was a community that had been essential for us, and it’s just great that they welcomed, pretty much like, they welcomed their sons home.

I remember one of the best lines that Bounty ever said to me. We had just, when “BaKardi Slang” came out, we performed it at something called Delano’s Revenge that had 30,000 people at it. He pulled up the song “One Time,” and he said... what did he say? He said, “I want you guys to show love to Kardinal because he is of Jamaican parentage, which means we own a percentage.” That was one of the best things that I’ll never forget. It’s interesting because it happened right after 9/11 that we, 26 of us actually went down to Jamaica, including the Rascalz, so Red One, everybody was there. It was an incredible, incredible time. Yeah.

Anupa Mistry

The reason why I think it’s important to lay the foundation of all of that stuff, of how much your culture has influenced you and in turn, influenced the landscape of hip-hop in this country, or at least in Toronto, let’s say that, and (it) trickled back into Jamaica. That, we’re seeing that now, today. When people wonder, “What is Drake doing, or why are all of these artists from Toronto all of a sudden getting on to these sounds?” I mean, that had roots in what you’ve done. You’ve always been doing it. You’re still doing it. You put out an album last year called Kardigras, your fifth album, and you could still hear that stuff present on that record.

Kardinal Offishall

I mean, Drake’s a kid just like anybody else in Toronto. It’s just one of those things. It’s not like he had to reach. When people talk about authenticity, I think, to me, this is, especially in telling his story, it’s kind of hard to grow up in a place like Toronto and not, at some point in time, have that kind of leak into who you are. To me, it’s the equivalent of, I don’t know, being in New Orleans and at no point in time do you ever talk about Mardi Gras and all the cultural things that you experience through that, or being in New York and having something like the Labor Day Parade on Eastern Parkway. Having those things not, in some type of way, affect you, or pretend like you could live in Brooklyn and not ever talk about how the West Indian culture is a part of who we are. I think you’ve seen it over the years in hip-hop come at various times. You’ve seen it in Smiff N’ Wessun. You’ve seen it come through in the Fugees. You’ve seen it come through if you dip back to Heavy D, and now you’re seeing it in Rihanna and Drake and Beyonce and Justin Bieber. The Justin Bieber one is a bit of a stretch, but it all, it all is a reality.

It is what it is at this point in time, and I just love the fact that Drake is on that platform and he could have veered left, but instead, he veered right and kind of started to incorporate what has always been around him, as long as I’ve known him. He’s always been in the scene, sometimes as an actor, sometimes as a musician, but I think it’s dope. Unfortunately, it’s funny because people, they say, “What is all this London slang that Drake’s trying to put into his music?” I’m like...

Anupa Mistry

That’s “BaKardi Slang.”

Kardinal Offishall

Well, I’m not that vain, but I’m like, “That’s our...” That’s just what we grew up with in the city, whether you like it or not, it’s not foreign for somebody Greek to... you’re like, “Yo Kardi, wha gwan” It’s just how we... it’s just how some of us talk. Not all of us, but it’s just within our culture. I think it’s dope that he’s representing home. That’s what it is. When I look and I see it, that’s what I see.

Anupa Mistry

I mean, this is a big conversation that’s happening now, and I think we are finally hearing from people in Jamaica who are maybe feeling slighted by how their music or how their culture is being represented internationally. For the young people in here making music, people watching us, making music. Do you have any words or any thoughts on how you take inspiration from other cultures, whether it’s reggae, dancehall, or whatever it may be, in a way that feels respectful to the original people?

Kardinal Offishall

For me, I think the best way to not have people feel that type of way, is to include them, and to be inclusive, because it’s like I travel and have traveled the world. Anything that’s inspired me, I try and have those people participate in it. My family’s from Jamaica, but I’m a huge fan of soca music. When I do, when I do soca, if it’s not something that I do with Bunji or Machel or Kes or one of my friends, there’s things that you’ll see behind the scenes. A song that I have called, "Always Carnival Time” with me and Kes, not is it just that I have an artist from Trinidad who’s heavy in the soca scene, but it’s like the engineers mixing the song are people from Trinidad and that type of a thing.

I think inclusion, because it’s like, if you think about it in a Canadian type of way, whatever it is that we represent here, if people just came and they’re like, “Oh, they’re doing this cool shit in Canada,” and just left and went and did it and it became super popular, people would be like, “Yo, what the fuck? That’s Canada shit.” The same thing would happen if it was the UK with what’s going on with grime. Imagine all of a sudden, Jay Z just started doing grime, but there were no grime artists on his album, no grime producers, but he’s just taking the sound that is fundamentally a UK thing and just doing it, I’m sure there would be animosity there, too. I think what a lot of those artists are saying is it’s like you’re taking from us, and by you, I just mean people in general because there’s a lot of people that are inspired by what’s going on in dancehall, but there’s a lot of people that kind of just say, “Thanks,” and they just leave instead of actually having the people participate. I think that happens with any country, whether it be Germany, France, Jamaica, Japan, I think just as long as you have some type of inclusion, I think you’ll be able to avoid the criticism and skepticism.

Anupa Mistry

You mentioned soca music, one of my favorite types of music, so I was really happy when you...

Kardinal Offishall

Before you even play that, you see how you said, you were really happy? This is arguable in here for as long as you guys are here. I think soca is literally the only music on the planet that is 99.9% a happy genre. There is no such thing as an angry soca song. When you listen to soca, I don’t think you can play me any negativity in soca. I grew up with it. Didn’t always like it. I think when I started to fall in love with it was when hip-hop was redundant. It was lacking creativity and there wasn’t anything that was inspiring me. Getting into the soca scene was one where any soca party you would go to on the entire planet would probably be the most exciting, energetic place that you’ve ever been to and the music was just so vibrant. It gave me a second wind like when you’re at a club and the club is really shitty and it’s 2 AM but your friends don’t want to leave till 4AM. You’re like, “This fucking sucks.” Then they play music. You’re like, “I can stay.” That’s what soca music was for me.

Anupa Mistry

I’m not a stay out all night kind of party person but that stuff, I’ll go till 7 AM.

Kardinal Offishall

That’s why with carnival you go and you can get 18 hours sleep for the week.

Anupa Mistry

Let’s let people hear what we’re talking about.

(*music: Bunji Garlin – “Truck On D Road” /applause *)

That was a song by Bunji Garlin called “Truck On D Road” and you did a remix of that. That’s from I believe carnival season 2014.

Kardinal Offishall

Very important to note. He did the remix of it. There’s a very, very key difference because there’s a lot of times when artists’ songs come out and they call it the remix even though they did it themselves. Not really a remix. You just jacked shit. That’s actually a real remix meaning he’s like, “I’m doing a remix for this song. I’d like you to be on it.” There’s actually a process to it. Here’s my verse. Puts it together, puts it out.

Anupa Mistry

I also think that’s an interesting song. It’s an interesting song for us to listen to because I don’t know how many people here are familiar with soca, but I don’t know if that necessarily sounds like what people know as soca. It reflects the increasing influence of EDM on soca culture in Trinidad, which has a lot to do with how that’s its own self sustaining industry.

Kardinal Offishall

Bunji is doing what I did and am doing with hip-hop. For Bunji, he doesn’t like for soca to live in a box. His artistry, he doesn’t want to be the typical, (singing) “Everything happy, everything good. Jump, jump, jump.” He wants to try and inject a little bit more creativity and more lyricism into it. That’s probably why, and I’m saying he’s one of my best friends and why we get along so well musically. Some of you guys might have been introduced to Bunji through Skrillex or Major Lazer or a lot of big EDM bands and producers because a lot of them have been going to Bunji the last few years and doing collabs. People are starting to reach for Machel now.

There’s an interesting thing that’s happening with the soca scene. I love it because to them, Trinidad is similar to where we were in Toronto. If you talk to Bunji nowadays, his fight is: he wants for people to respect Trinidad and to respect soca music even though people love it around the world. It’s similar to where we were with the Toronto hip-hop scene is we wanted for the Toronto hip-hop scene to be accepted. Maybe accepted is a bad word because I think when we came in, my whole mindset was like, we’re going to seek and destroy and bomb up everything until they’re like, “Oh shit, we got to pay attention.”

What’s interesting was that was always my frame of mind whether it was doing a song with Vybz Cartel or T-Pain or Sean Kingston, Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Akon. Anybody that I ever did a song with, I was always going in there with the intention of, “This is amazing that these people have me on the song, but at the same time they’re going to mother fucking respect Toronto.” I think that’s the same mindset that he’s in now with soca and with Trinidad. It’s amazing because he just got back from France doing another collab. They’re doing so much shit over there in soca. It’s amazing because it’s starting to permeate between Afro beats and all these different things that are combining soca into African rhythms and also blending EDM at the same time. I love the international sound that’s happening in hip-hop and other genres also.

Anupa Mistry

We’ll close up soon. All of this stuff, all of this accumulation of knowledge, all of this understanding of what it means to work in the Canadian music industry to make links with people in different parts of the world that feel organic and that have homes, have audiences where you live, meaning ostensibly I hope you’re now carrying that into what you do, your day job. Would it be safe to call it your day job?

Kardinal Offishall

No.

Anupa Mistry

OK. It’s not your day job. You’re still making music but tell everyone what else it is that you do.

Kardinal Offishall

It’s easy to sum up, kind of. Last year, I was doing a charity fashion show during Toronto men’s fashion week. When I was walking on the catwalk, I was walking back and I saw, “rapper, executive and philanthropist.” I was like, “Oh, that’s pretty much it right there.” There’s still the artist side, which is the rapper, the producer, the songwriter. Now I’m also part of a squad called the Celebrity Marauders, which has somebody from Cipha Sounds who’s signed to Jay Z. He’s from New York. It has Dready, who’s a legendary producer from the UK. Then it has myself. I started from scratch. We’ve been touring the world. If you’re going to be in New York tomorrow, we’ll be playing tomorrow. There’s all of that stuff. There’s the executive side to where I’m the executive creative director of A&R for Universal Music here. I just signed my first group a few months ago. I won’t let you guys leave without hearing what it sounds like. I had that fancy, nonsensical title for three years but I didn’t sign anybody until just a couple of months ago because I was waiting for somebody or some people that I thought had that superstar potential. Then there’s the philanthropic side wherein myself and my wife, we have an organization called 30 Elephants that’s a not-for-profit. My wife grew up as a navy brat and understands the importance of travel and being able to go to different places and how being exposed to different cultural rituals, really, being able to go to China, go to The Philippines, go to Africa, when you go to these different places and you see how different people live, not only are you now understanding that the way that you operate is not the only way to do something, but it also gives you a greater appreciation for what you have back home. We partner together with the Kielburgers, who have an organization called Free the Children. I work very hard together with them to create an annual trip to where we take kids, primarily that wouldn’t be able to afford a trip to Kenya, and we take them to Africa and we build schools. We build clinics. We go into the community. We volunteer. It’s a really transformative trip. That’s mainly what I do on the philanthropic side. I’ll also be touring with them to a stadium near you for a thing that we have called We Day that happens at pretty much every major stadium in North America as well as the UK and other places.

Anupa Mistry

You were... your role as Executive Creative Director, for three years, and you didn’t sign anyone until a few months ago, so what was it that you were waiting for?

Kardinal Offishall

It wasn’t...

Anupa Mistry

Not to say money, I mean what was the spirit, what was...

Kardinal Offishall

You’re like, “What was it you were waiting for?” The funny thing is that I’ve been A&Ring my whole career and my whole life, so pretty much anything that you’ve heard for the most part was myself that went and found this person and said, “I believe in them.” It’s been crazy being able to, over the years, discover, not discover, but Estelle... before she was Estelle, me and her were working, because I knew her from the UK. Glenn Lewis was on my demo tape, Sean Paul was on my demo tape, before these people went on and sold gold and platinum albums and all that, and it was my lawyer, Theo Sedlmayr, and my manager Mr. Morgan at the time, it’s like, “Yo, you’ve been in A&R your whole career. It’s just that you never got paid for it.” Shout out to Randy Lennox, who was the former president, and also the current president Jeffrey Remedios for giving a rapper the opportunity to actually have influence and be able to sign, because a lot of times, there are certain A&Rs that actually don’t have the signing power. I think it’s really dope that they believe in me, what I’ve been able to accomplish within my career, and also for me to, I guess, be able to see what the future might look like, give me that power.

The other group that I signed, they’re incredible, and pretty much to go with my legacy, they’re international. Eestbound, who is originally from the Netherlands, so he’s Dutch, he moved to Toronto about five to six years ago. If you don’t know who Eestbound is, he produced “Antidote” for Travis $cott along with “Wonder Girl.” Also, there’s Milly Manson, who is a rapper. He’s like me. He’s of Jamaican heritage. There is Pree, who is an 18-year-old female Sri Lankan, and it sounds crazy, but together, they mix organically. I mean, they also live five minutes away from each other in Brampton. Just the mix of all of them, when I heard this song, I played the song 50 times in a row because my sound engineer, he’s like, “I need you to hear my little brother,” and I was like, “Oh boy, here we go again.” You know, he pressed play, and probably the first 10 seconds, in my head, I’m killing myself. When it kicked in, it’s like what I was talking about earlier. When you hear that song, and there’s those vibrations that, that thing that’s just organic, that thing that just takes over you. When I heard this song, I knew that this was something crazy.

What’s amazing is the song just dropped a week ago, but the reception has been just out of this world. I’m super, super, super hyped for what these kids are going to do, and also what they’re going to represent. I think they really represent what Toronto is, an amalgamation of cultures, of styles, and I think it’s dope because although they are all 21 and younger, their sound also is able to permeate the old, bitter men of hip-hop. I think that ...yeah, another hard room, cheap joke. Yeah, I think it’s going to be dope because we performed it for the first time last week. When I say we, I mean I was cheering from the back. They killed it. The crowd was super receptive from just having heard the song for the first time, and that’s really been the reaction. Can I play this shit for you guys?

Audience

Yeah.

Kardinal Offishall

Like, I think...

Anupa Mistry

Then, we’ll go to questions.

Kardinal Offishall

Then, we’ll go to questions. Yeah, mean, I was... it’s just one of those ones for me where I was like, “Ugh.” It has the “yuck.” You just do the “yuck” face when you hear it, but I think in a really good way. The kids represent what I feel is happening right now. There’s a lot of aggression. There’s a lot of misplaced anger, a lot of different stuff, and I think it all comes out in this song. Not to mention, I think individually, they’re stars as well. The group is called EMP, stands for Eestbound, Milly, and Pree, and pardon me, Red Bull gas. That’s called... the song is called “Rebellion.”

(music: EMP – “Rebellion” / applause)

Anupa Mistry

Thank you for taking the time to hang out with us today and talk about all this amazing stuff.

Kardinal Offishall

Please, this is dope. Listen, first and foremost, any time Red Bull calls I always oblige, whether it’s being a part of Sound Clashes in New York or stuff in Toronto, here in Montréal, whatever, I think first and foremost, we should give a big round of applause to Red Bull Music Academy for ever having this shit happen (applause). The one thing about me that I always feel is important is, especially in hip-hop, I feel that there is a little bit of a disconnect between generations right now. I think that it’s important that not just my story, but the story of hip-hop be able to connect the young kids that are coming up with what actually happened before, because I really am a real believer in: You can’t understand where you’re going if you don’t know where you came from. None of us, including myself, just got here one day. We’re all standing on the shoulders of giants. It’s just that sometimes, I think what’s happening right now with kids is that there’s these giants, but they’re standing on... they’re holding up these platforms and the kids are standing on the platforms, but they’re unaware of the people that are actually underneath that are holding up that foundation. I think any time, even if it’s a little bit of my story and a little bit of Toronto’s story and a little bit of Canada’s story, that can lend itself to everybody’s understanding.

I mean, arguably, the biggest rapper in the world is from Toronto. By saying that, it’s the same way that I know New York’s story because so many different people have told it. It goes way back from the seventies up until now. I would love for people to have the same understanding of where we come from when they’re talking about Drake or they’re talking about Weeknd or they’re talking about Tory Lanez or Alessia Cara or any of the other countless amazing Canadian acts that we have.

I would really love for people to understand what our legacy is and where we came from as a country and how we were able to arrive as opposed to just people just running with the hype saying, “Yeah, Toronto’s the hot shit right now.” It’s so much more than just headlines on blogs.

Anupa Mistry

That’s a fitting, fitting end. (applause) Yeah. Thank you. Questions? Where’s the microphone, the question? Microphone. Does anyone have questions? You’re going to get a mic.

Audience Member

I got a question.

Anupa Mistry

Oh, you got a mic?

Kardinal Offishall

Who let this guy in?

Audience Member

Alright, settle a household argument for me. Is “BaKardi Slang” somewhat at least partially inspired by “Country Grammar”?

Kardinal Offishall

It came out before that.

Audience Member

It did?

Kardinal Offishall

Sure did.

Audience Member

Shit, I lost. I lost the bet. Fuck.

Kardinal Offishall

I also wore the furry Kangol before Nelly did. Shout out to Nelly, though.

Audience Member

You just cost me a thousand dollars. Damn it.

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah. Sorry about that, bro.

Anupa Mistry

Go ahead.

Audience Member

Hi. I would like to ask two questions, but it’s going to be a joined question of sorts. You mentioned about how the Toronto scene is a bit tough when people are throwing bottles and stuff onstage back in your day? How is it now? Is there any difference between then and now? The following question to that is, is the Canadian industry more understanding of you or the current artists after you’ve gone to the US? Yeah, so that’s the question.

Kardinal Offishall

The Canadian industry, that’s another two-hour discussion. Where we’re at right now is very interesting because you have forward thinkers like the people that allow me to work with Universal, those people that actually do believe in the talent that we have. It’s like over the past few years, if you look at the first three: Alx Veliz, who is a Latin artist. You have people like Jazz Cartier that’s on tour with Post Malone right now. You have EMP that just dropped. These are just three signings that happened all just within the last year. Clearly people are really starting to understand the importance of not letting other territories come in and just farm within Canada and take it back to America or take it back to the UK. Traditionally, that’s what happens if you look at people like [inaudible], you look at Drake, you look at The Weeknd, Bieber, and unfortunately the list goes on.

Basically what happens is you have a lot of people who historically were able to offer budgets that were ten times what Canadians could afford, so there is more to it than just the belief in the actual music. There is economics behind it, but what’s dope right now is that we are showing and proving so much in all these different things that have happened and that are happening now, it’s making it really dope.

There are people that are starting to understand that this is what the kids have always loved and this is what the kids love now, but we’re just starting to keep it at home here in Canada. I mean, not even to toot my own horn or it’s not a vanity thing or a conceit thing, but it’s like even the things that people are allowing me to do myself through my career, I couldn’t have imagined this stuff 15 years ago, you know what I’m saying?

I’m doing a partnership with Ford on the philanthropy side to where I’m going to be a Ford ambassador and I’m going to work with them to create... we created this program that hopefully will start in December, but that’s called Drivers of Change. It’s a program to where they are going to give a national spotlight every month to somebody that’s actually doing work within the community, you know what I’m saying?

It was an idea that I came up with, so it’s like they’re now saying, “Hey, these hip-hop guys, they not only know how to get the attention of the youth and know how to create businesses for themselves, but they can actually help us to further get our brands out there.” It’s going to be announced this week when I’m going to have a nationally syndicated show on Virgin Radio from coast to coast. It’s unheard of, especially if you listen to Virgin Radio, you know that that doesn’t really necessarily fit what your image would be of Virgin in your head. It’s the same thing. It’s like, little by little, these doors get kicked down. We just get through and as soon as we get through, there’s some people that whatever rightfully so do it for themselves and they have a great career and they make a lot of money and they do their thing, but then there’s some people that want to be able to initiate change.

I think I’m one of those people. My legacy will, I guess, speak to you when you can see 10, 15, 20 and 30 years from now, somebody being like, “Oh my God, I’m able to provide not only for my family, but I was able to do more than that, provide for my family and my community.” It all traces back to that first thing that you did when you kicked down this door or you did this.

I think what’s happening is the Canadian industry is really starting to understand the power that hip-hop music has and the role that our community plays. If you ask about what Toronto’s like now, it’s soft, but it’s soft in a good way. There’s a lot more opportunity for kids. Yeah, it’s weird. Well, here’s the thing... People talk about gatekeepers nowadays. People talk about, “Oh, the gatekeepers, the old regime, they got to go. Make room for everybody else.”

What I liked about the gatekeepers... because I was part of that same thing. I had to prove to the gatekeepers that I was dope. Toronto, yes, it was a little bit more harsh, but it kept the bullshit at home, you know what I’m saying? If you were garbage, it wasn’t, “Oh, there’s room for everybody.” We’re like, “No, we got to preserve our culture.” What happened that I can’t remember the year in particular, but I think it started, to be honest, with the term hating. People were like, “Oh, you’re just hatin’ on him,” you know what I’m saying? “Let him do his thing.” I think what we were doing was we were preserving for the most part... there’s always going to be bullshit that gets through, but a certain standard, a certain level. The other day, we had this conversation that opened my eyes to something. If you look at going from Melle Mel to Rakim, there’s a change in the way that they rapped.

The thing was that Rakim, you can’t really argue. Whether you like him or not, his skill level, it was up here. The bar was up here (raises his hand). From Rakim to Nas, whether you like Jay Z better than Nas or whatever the scenario was, from Rakim to Nas, again, there is a difference in the way that they rapped, but in terms of the bar, up here. If you go from a Nas to a Kendrick or somebody like that, again, a difference in the way that they rap, but still the bar is up here (rasies his hand).

There’s always going to be younger people that come in and do it differently, but the bar is up here. What’s happening in hip-hop because we don’t have the gatekeepers, the bar is way down here. That’s why I say it’s cool because it gives more people opportunity, but at the same time, without those people that are organically curating what they want the culture to be, it’s letting a lot of bullshit get through. There’s people that’ll be like, “Oh, it’s not bullshit because you don’t like it.” That’s bullshit.

I think honestly, hip-hop was something that literally started with the DJ, in terms of the rap music anyway. It started with the DJ and the MC at first was secondary, was the accompanying instrument to the DJ, but the one thing that was the common thread was that it was lyrical. They used to call us “street poets.” They used to say it’s this street poetry... you can break it down to a science. It’s literally being studied in universities around the world. There is a science to hip-hop and there is a commonality between the best things that have risen to the top. If you look at the culture the way that it is now, it’s like there’s a regression. There’s no way, if you just put it on paper, put the way that I feel and you feel and she feels and he feels, put it to the side, put it up here and put the lyrics up there. Then study intonations, study the whole nine yards, it’s regressing.

Audience Member

Yes, hi, I wanted to ask you in the same vein as the first question from [inaudible]. I heard the phrase once that said, “There are music business people and business business people.” How has your relationship been with the people that really care about the music and the art versus the people who only care about the money and the institutions and the record labels and the people within the record labels especially. Since you’ve gotten to live the whole transition between a moment in time where the record industry was selling CDs or cassettes, or was really selling the physical thing and now, for example, Red Bull Music Academy which isn’t like a record label per se, but it’s still doing things for the music. Let’s say real musicians. How has your relationship been with these two sides of it?

Kardinal Offishall

It’s very, very, very, very difficult to balance. To be honest, the first thing before I even got this position they were like, “Kardi, we want you to have your own record label.” I was like, “Not interested. Keep it.” When we got to having the meetings, again, it just shows you the mindset that we are progressing to, but they allowed me to be able to participate but under my own terms. I was still able to be a functioning artist. They never said to me, “You have to be in the office every day and sit behind the desk and answer random calls of people who want you to sign them and stuff like that.”

It’s tough because there are people that, unfortunately, only see what we call “the bean counters”... there’s only people that see the money side of it and that’s all they see. The bottom line is literally it. I mean, shout out, to Lucienne and all those people that gave Jeffrey remedials. In my case, gave me the opportunity to be president because one, he’s only a year older than me, which is crazy because when you think of presidents of labels sometimes you think of these old guys, but there’s a lot of younger presidents that are coming into power, number one.

Number two, Jeffrey comes from... he had his own independent record label that was called Arts & Crafts. He already had the mindset of somebody who was very much involved in everything his artists did. If you know anything about the independent scene compared to the major label scene there’s a fundamental difference in how they operate. Yeah, you lose a lot of sleep sometimes, bro, to be completely honest. You lose a lot of sleep. There’s many people that I think are super dope and I’m like, “Yo, the label... it’s not for you with what you’re doing,” but I think that’s the dope part, kind of where we are within music. There’s so many different opportunities for your music to get heard and you can have a career and not just one where you’re just getting by, you can really come up and do extremely well around the world based on all the tools we all have at our disposal right now.

I still remember I was in Jimmy Iovine’s office when that whole Soulja Boy thing was coming about. It’s crazy because within my discovery he was one of the first artists that was literally able to be discovered by double clicking. That was really one of the first ones that used the power of Internet and YouTube and that whole nine to launch their career in a big way. I remember, it was weird because Jimmy was pissed. At the time he was like, “Fuckin’ Youtube. They’re fuckin’ up everything and blah, blah, blah.” He was going on and on and on, but it’s very interesting for me to be around at that time because that’s literally where we are now. Streaming is fueling the industry, but he was concerned about that back in whenever I signed that deal... like 2007, 2008. Now people look at him and he’s with Apple Music and did that whole thing. This is something that’s been on his brain for almost a decade.

Where we are right now we really have the opportunity to flourish. If you’re going to be with a label, it’s got to be because you did your research and you know what a label can do for you. It’s not just something you aspire to because all your favorite artists signed a record deal. You’ve got to look at it now and say, “Alright, this is what I am as a brand. What can that label do to enhance that vision and enhance my brand?” I think that’s when things are magic, is when there’s a true partnership. I think if there wasn’t that partnership I don’t think I’d be able to work with the labels, but I think right now that’s what’s going on is there's more and more understanding that the power lies within the artists as well as the label. When that true partnership happens that’s when great things seem to happen throughout the world.

Anupa Mistry

Any more questions? OK, the mic is coming.

Kardinal Offishall

That awkward long walk to the mic.

Audience Member

Good evening.

Kardinal Offishall

Hey, how are you?

Audience Member

Good. How are you?

Kardinal Offishall

Pretty good.

Audience Member

Good. What do you think about the persecution of ritual, both domestically and abroad, not just as it pertains to cultural singularities but also the threats posed by the Trans-Pacific Partnership and things like that. What do you think about ritual and mysticism versus monoculture?

Kardinal Offishall

Oh, man. The funny thing is I talk about monocultural experiences all the time because I loved growing up being, however old I was, and them saying, “Thriller is coming on MTV Tuesday night at 7:30,” because Tuesday night at 7:30 the entire planet was experiencing that video at the same time. Everybody at 7:38 was either on their phones or in their neighborhood or the next day in school or at work everybody was talking about it at the same time.

Growing up, that’s what made so many of us fall in love with music is not just the music that came out but that experience that you had when everybody would, collectively as a lover of whatever song it was or whatever movie it was, when everybody experienced things at the same time I think that helped really push the music ahead. Growing up, that’s the way I experienced things. Everybody around me, friends, family, everybody.

I think what’s happening now is it’s... I don’t know... it’s interesting. It depends on who you are. It leads to more people having an individualistic way of approaching everything. There’s not as much follow the leader. There is, like when you look at social media, literally there’s a follow button but if you can forget about those overt things I think covertly what’s happening is there’s not as much following in terms of, “Everyone loves this so I’m going to love that.” Nowadays I do interviews and people are like, “What are you listening to, “ and I’m like, “You guys need to delete that out of your journalism because it’s like I listen to a hundred artists a week.” That just comes from, you know, Anupa could be like, “The new Jay Z just dropped.” I’m like, “OK, cool, I’ll check it when I get back to my hotel.” You know what I’m saying? Those types of experiences don’t happen.

I love the ritualistic, like that’s me. I’ll never trade that for anything. The first time getting to hear “The Bridge Is Over” by KRS-One my whole neighborhood heard it for the first time at the same time. Having those types of experiences that just shapes, for me, the way that my generation viewed music, the way that we viewed our goals. I love the idea of a monoculture, to some extent, still. Your question was really great. I hope I answered it or part of it, at least.

Audience Member

Part of it.

Kardinal Offishall

OK, cool. What was the other part that I didn’t answer?

Audience Member

I’ve kind of related to what you said about your philanthropy with the kids and taking them abroad to see other cultures, it was kind of related to that. That’s for kids, right? You said it’s a youth program?

Kardinal Offishall

Yeah, generally speaking from 14 to 19 or 20.

Audience Member

I think, at least in my head, I was thinking that stuff could benefit people of all ages. It’s not really a youth-centric thing. I think everyone could benefit from that kind of...

Kardinal Offishall

It is available to everybody. There are adult trips that go, probably even more than the youth trips. The reason why I felt that I wanted to engage with the youth side of it is that I know that at my age right now in order for you to change the way I think, it’s going to take years, years, and years of somebody hitting me in my head over and over again until I’m like, “Oh, I got it.”

When I went there, I remember it was myself, my mom and one of the board members. We were sitting in the middle of the Maasai Mara at 12 and the electricity cut off at 11 so we’re sitting in the dark just with flashlights and we were like, “Imagine how dope this would be if we got to experience this at 13 or 14? By the time we were this age who knows what the possibilities could be or how our minds would have developed.”

That’s why, initially, when we got back we wanted to make this trip available to the youth because I really do believe that the youth will be the ones that will be taking care of all of us in this room. What better way to prepare the youth than to have them go and experience those types of things firsthand so that when they come back here all the decisions that they make for the rest of their lives are affected by that one very transformative trip that they had.

The thing is, we love Kenya and we go to Kenya every year but we’ve gone to Japan, we’ve gone to other places to experience those cultures because I think that’s one of the best things about being an artist, especially for me, is having toured India, having gone to China, Romania, Mexico, the Caribbean, you name it, and experiencing all those different places... the foods, the people, meeting the poor people, meeting the very wealthy people, all those different things definitely have an effect on how I view the planet and the words that I say and the actions that I do.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Kardinal Offishall

You’re welcome.

Anupa Mistry

Any more questions?

Kardinal Offishall

Good.

Anupa Mistry

OK, cool.

Kardinal Offishall

We can do that awkward applause now. (applause) Just to end it off for me, I wanted to say thank you guys for sitting through my rambling but also just for being a part of molding what the future of the industry will be. Looking at this room, for me this is dope. It’s like I see several different, I don’t know you guys, you guys could all be from [inaudible] I don’t know but looking at you guys I see several different backgrounds, I see different genders.

I see a lot of different people that are coming together for the love of the arts and I think that’s something that is, for me, I can breathe a big sigh of relief because I think people like you guys that aren’t just creating sounds but creating the environment for where music will exist moving forward, I think it’s really dope that you guys even took the time out to hear just some of the stories as to where it came from. Especially coming from Canada, so I thank you guys for coming out and for doing what you guys do so round of applause for yourself. (applause) And just big up Anupa. She is, even before I knew who she was, she is somebody who is super awesome and somebody that is really engaged within the music community. When they told me that she was going to be leading this today for me, even though I know her now, it’s still an honor. Please make some noise for Anupa. (applause)