Kevin Saunderson

Christine Kakaire

Welcome everybody, to what is the final lecture of term one, of RBMA 20, 2018, here in Berlin, and our final guest lecturer is sitting to my left here. There are very few people in the world who can claim to have had a hand in inventing techno but he’s definitely one of them. Please welcome, Kevin Saunderson. [applause]

Kevin Saunderson


Thank you.

Christine Kakaire


So as I was trying to figure out where to start with taking an overview of your entire discography, all of your projects, all of your aliases, it gave me an opportunity to really examine everything that you’ve done and the word that kind of kept coming back to me was inspiration. Inspiration in the sense of a process of intaking information, absorbing it, digesting it, having that be the catalyst to create other things and having those things go on to influence other people. So probably going to spend quite a bit of time talking about Detroit and also the year 1988 because I think that was an incredibly monumental year for you, musically and professionally. But before we get there we should go there. So I want us to start the beginning and the reason that we were playing those two tracks at the beginning by Stephanie Mills, is because they relate to your upbringing and also to your place of birth. I’d love for you to start by telling everyone where you were born and where you grew up.

Kevin Saunderson


All right, so, originally born in Brooklyn, New York. I grew up there probably until I was ten, 11, 12 right around there, ten, 11. I’m from New York originally, my mother’s from Detroit, and she moved to New York and I was born there.

Christine Kakaire


What was it that took you to Belleville? Because when you left New York you didn’t move to Detroit proper, you moved to Belleville which was kind of a satellite city of Detroit? What were the circumstances?

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah Belleville was a suburb of Detroit, it was about maybe 30 minutes away from Downtown. Actually I moved to Inkster first. Inkster was the same, but a different type of environment than Belleville. It was kind of an urban community, poor neighborhoods and that’s where my mother grew up, so I lived there and I think I went to elementary for one year or something like that. And then I moved to Belleville which was quite different than Inkster and it was quite different than definitely Brooklyn. My mother got me out of Brooklyn because I was just around a lot of negative energy and I think she was, and she wanted to make better for me, she wanted me in a different environment so she decided to leave, vacate New York. And she moved me back where she was from.

Christine Kakaire


I understand that it was something of a rude awakening for you in Belleville. It wasn’t a particularity diverse community. I believe I read in an interview that you did that it was kind of the first time you became aware of what racism was.

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah, definitely, definitely. When I moved to Belleville, I moved into a nice, I guess middle class neighborhood around lakes and stuff like that and it might have been three or four black families that lived in that whole kind of... They called it a subdivision. So it’s might be, I don’t know, 150 houses, whatever. I used to always wake up, I’m doing whatever, I look outside and I see all this trash in my yard. I’m like, “Well, how’d that get there?” But it was continuously. So one day, I was outside and I heard... You see cars go by, whatever, and these cars go by and they say... they blurt out this words like, “N---a, n---a, n---a.” And I’m like... I don’t really know. I didn’t know at that time what racism was, I didn’t know what the word meant. But I watched this movies called Roots and that’s when I got my first education about slavery, and then about racism, and then I put two and two together and I could tell that these people didn’t want me in this neighborhood. When I first moved into Belleville, the first whatever, first month, two months, that’s what I got when I first moved there.

Christine Kakaire


And I believe that you were quite natural when it came to sports, various sports in school. Was that kind of a bit of a refuge for you perhaps? For this environment or...

Kevin Saunderson


Well Belleville was a different type of city compared to New York. It was like seriously country, very green, I didn’t have any friends. Yeah I think when I first moved there I’m like... Even school hadn’t started for maybe a couple of months at the beginning of the summer. I didn’t know Derrick [May] or Juan [Atkins] at that time either, I just didn’t know nobody. You got lakes, you could fish, and there’s not much you can really do. And I sure wasn’t making music at that point. So once I got to school, finally went to school, start going to class every day and all that, I became interested in sports because I was bored in my surroundings and I needed, or I wanted, to do something that was interesting to me. So that became my thing, and meeting Derrick, I met Derrick through sports, I met him in junior high. We were 13, 12 or 13, and that’s how I first met Derrick May.

Christine Kakaire


But you didn’t get off to the best start with Derrick May, is that right?

Kevin Saunderson


Well, in the beginning it was okay but maybe about a month or two later... You know how you become friends with somebody, you meet them you think, “OK, I’ll hang out with this guy.” About a month or two later, we made a bet, we bet on a football game and he lost [laughter] but he didn’t want to pay. It was whatever, $5. And he was acting silly, “I’m not going to pay.” So I got mad and I got aggressive and I had to punch him a few times, basically I beat him up, OK? That’s how we actually really became friends. [laughter] For real, because sometimes it takes that for somebody to respect you, and then all of a sudden he had that respect. I wasn’t a guy to try to bully people, I was big now but I was a nice guy, I like to get along with everybody. So we became friends from that point.

Christine Kakaire


I think this is probably a good point to look at photo number one. It’s going to come up on the screen behind you. Talk us through who’s in this picture, obviously that’s you on the left there.

Kevin Saunderson


That was the promotion of the compilation, I think... I want to say The Face magazine, or some magazine from England came to Detroit, and they wanted to take pictures. This was the beginning of the whole interest in our music. That was probably one of my first pictures taken.

Christine Kakaire


This is the three people who...

Kevin Saunderson


Obviously Derrick, and then Juan is over there and that’s the beginning almost.

Christine Kakaire


And my understanding is that Juan is a few years older than you and Derrick.

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah, Juan was... Let me think here. Juan is definitely two or three years older. Yeah, definitely.

Christine Kakaire


I understand that Juan was the first person to start experimenting with making music...

Kevin Saunderson


No doubt.

Christine Kakaire


... In the very, very early ‘80s. When did you first get a sense that he was kind of tinkering with these machines and tinkering with sound?

Kevin Saunderson


OK so, as I was explaining about Derrick, junior high school, we became friends, we were playing football. Juan’s brother, Aaron Atkins, also was paying sports with us. So we hung out together, because we played sports together and we kind of hung around each other. So I would go over to Juan’s house and Aaron’s house because he invited me, he invited Derrick. So we kind of hung out over there and that’s where I first met Juan. And Juan was like this kind of... In school you seen him, but he’s older, he ain’t got time to be hanging out with us. He was just older, different at that time. Thinking about different things, thinking about moving on, and high school, thinking about chicks, whatever, stuff like that. We’re just sports geeks. So going over to the house, that’s where I met Juan.

And Juan, he stayed distant, he didn’t even say hi. It was like, “That’s my brother, Juan.” That was it. I seen different pieces of gear, or tape decks back then like eight-tracks and cassettes stacked on top of each other. So he was already doing something different with these machines than I was used to seeing them. You know them, the regular set, eight-track and maybe a receiver and a turntable or something like that. So he had multiple units doing whatever, I didn’t pay attention that much but that’s when I first caught this taste of... He was doing something different. That was kind of the beginning of that part but it evolved over time and over years of just being around the house and Derrick. But it really grabbed me, more or less, when Juan started making music. Derrick actually moved into my house when we were in high school, so we’re talking like three years later, we’re in high school now. Derrick moves in with me for like four months, his mother decides she’s going to move back to Detroit but she wants Derrick to finish out the school year at the same school. She didn’t want to take him out of school right then, so she asked my mother, he moves in with me and that’s when the musical part started to... That was really the beginning, I would think, of the connection with music and even my roots in New York. Because even though I was young, I used to go back to New York to visit my brothers, other relatives and listen to the radio, WBLS and all that. So we had a connection musically, we started talking about different acts, and Juan was at the beginning of making music and Derrick was trying to explain this to me. Derrick was his biggest fan and kind of prodigy at that point.

Christine Kakaire


So you mentioned that you were still traveling back to New York periodically and I believe towards the end of your high school years when you were visiting New York, you were going to one particular club. Which club was that?

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah, I definitely went to the Paradise Garage at least, three, four, five times and it was towards the latter part of my high school year before I went to college. I got to experience Larry Levan and Paradise Garage for sure, quite amazing experience. Not knowing at this time too that I was going to be making records, and making a record that actually Larry could play. But I was so inspired by the atmosphere, the sound, just the music, the feeling I got when I went there. I got there, whatever, 1 AM in the morning, I left at 12 PM so, definitely...

Christine Kakaire


The first track as people were walking in was by Stephanie Mills called “What Cha' Gonna Do with My Lovin',” which is a song that you ended up covering with your project, Inner City, in the late ’80s. But we’ll kind of talk about that a little bit more a little bit later. Going back to Detroit around this period while Juan is experimenting, you and Derrick are communicating, in the same space, talking about music. And I believe at this point for all of you, the Electrifying Mojo played a huge influence as well. It’d be great ff you could to the participants who he was or who he is, rather.

Kevin Saunderson


So when Derrick moved in with me, probably the first night... It’s, I don’t know, 11:30 PM, whatever. I’m like, “I’m going to sleep.” He’s like, “You’re going to sleep? No man, it’s time for the Electrifying Mojo.” That’s what he told me. I hadn't heard of Mojo. [laughter] I had no clue who Mojo was at this time, so I was like, “OK.” He cuts the radio on and that was my first experience, so Derrick introduced me to the Electrifying Mojo to listening to the Midnight Funk Association, that’s what he called it. That’s how my influences that came... Really was from New York and then I’m round my mother so I’m listening to Motown stuff too, because that’s what she grew up on. But I listen to a lot of New York stuff when I can, so... But that’s when my musical taste, it got broader, I started hearing different music. The way he introduced music, the way he played music, Mojo would play albums when you're used to hearing maybe one song or maybe another single. When Mojo played, he had this theme with Star Wars and all that kind of stuff and it led up to this great intro that lead into whatever he was pushing that night, whether it was Prince, Parliament-Funkadelic, Kraftwerk , The B-52s, all that stuff got introduced to me through that channel, through knowing Derrick. And that’s how I started finding out about Mojo. That became a ritual, I wouldn’t miss his show.

Christine Kakaire


Yeah I mean it was every night, right?

Kevin Saunderson


I can’t remember that part but... I can’t remember, was it every night? Was it every night, Mike? [asks Mike Banks in the audience] John? OK. Yeah, it was every night. So, wow. Just some great music and some great times.

Christine Kakaire


I’d actually love to play just a little rip that I found of Electrifying Mojo’s very cinematic, very over the top radio intro. I think just to give people a sense of the world he was building and also the community that he was building with the Midnight Funk Association. So I’m just going to play around a minute or so of this intro.

(music: The Electrifying Mojo – “Midnight Funk Association intro”)

That’s just a fraction of that particular intro. Could we look at photo number eight on the screen actually? So this Midnight Funk Association was an actual card-carrying membership. Were you a member?

Kevin Saunderson


I was a member just because I was listening and I was just into it, that’s all that mattered to me. I don’t even know if I knew about the cards.

Christine Kakaire


I found this one deep in the internet. But I think something that I love about this Midnight Funk Association community is that idea of people signaling to each other, like switching on the porch lights or even honking their horns at midnight...

Kevin Saunderson


Honking horns, flashing lights, definitely.

Christine Kakaire


... And creating this sense of community and people being connected through the music. Mojo, was he somebody that you talk about at school? You talk about the tracks that you heard, etc?

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah, definitely. We’d definitely talk about the tracks, especially if you heard a new album of a new Parliament-Funkadelic that you hadn’t heard. Just amazing. And you heard music that was completely different, like I said, B-52s and all that kind of stuff. It was just so way out from what standard radio was playing and you didn’t want to hear any other radio besides something like Mojo.

Christine Kakaire


Did you ever meet him in person?

Kevin Saunderson


Definitely, of course I met Mojo. As time went on, Mojo did his segments just featuring Inner City and I was like, “Wow, this is like... This can’t be real.” So definitely, yup.

Christine Kakaire


Before we get to Inner City, I want to try doing something and creating something of an audio family tree. Because around ’86, ’87 I believe, is when you started observing and watching and eventually joining in. Making music with Juan and Derrick but also other characters like James Pennington, Santonio Echols, etc etc. And I think it's really interesting to hear various kinds of hallmarks and sound signatures already starting to emerge at that point. So what we’re going to do is just listen to quite short, 30 to 45 second grabs of particular tracks. The first three are Juan and Derrick, I’ll let you know what those are. And then the second lot of three are tracks that you, Kevin, were involved in, and I feel like you can already hear the eventual traces of Inner City starting to kind of assemble.

OK, so the first track we’re going to listen to is Juan’s very famous debut, under the name of Cybotron.

(music: Cybotron – "Clear")

That was Clear by Cybotron AKA Juan Atkins, from 1983, which is kind of hard to believe. So just a couple of years later Juan and Derrick released a record under the name X-Ray and I’m going to play a track called Let’s Go. And I believe, when I was kind of doing research about this, that you were observing them. It took them a few months to make this track, do you have any particular memories about this track?

Kevin Saunderson


Are speaking to X-Ray or Clear? Or both?

Christine Kakaire


X-Ray.

Kevin Saunderson


OK. At that time, when X-Ray was being made, we all were... When I say we all, I had equipment, and Derrick had equipment, and Juan had already had a few releases with Cybotron. Actually he was on to... He might have been on to Model 500 as well. I always was observing the whole... Once me and Derrick ... There was a point where Derrick moved to Chicago. So the Chicago movement was in its early stages, we kept in contact over the phone. This was like 1982, but Juan’s got records out as Cybotron, obviously Clear came out in ’83, so ’82 was the beginning... ’82 going into ’83 was really my beginning as far as my inspiration and changing my path. I was playing football and I decided, “Oh, I’m going to be a DJ.” I hadn’t thought about the music part but I knew I was going to be a DJ and I was starting trying to figure it out. That was before X-Ray because X-Ray might have came two years later. So there was a lot of stuff going before we even got that far. But by the time we got to that point, Derrick was... Yeah, he was working on tracks, he had a place downtown near Wayne State and he had some equipment, I had some equipment, Eddie Fowlkes had some equipment, Juan, we all had pieces of equipment. And sometimes we would bring it together. If he needed me to bring my 909, whatever, then I would bring it down to his house. Tracks got formulated like that because now you can complete a track because you had the equipment. I was around when everybody was making their tracks. I mean, Juan was kind of just in his own world, he was well above us as far as his knowledge, his skill level, and he had records out. But that was kind of the beginning for Derrick for sure and, I’m trying to think, Eddie had a track that he was working on. Like I said, we were all working on music. X-Ray was probably finished before Eddie’s track but Juan wanted to release Eddie’s track first, so that’s what I remember.

Christine Kakaire


Yeah and it’s interesting to kind of go through Discogs and try to figure out the lines but it’s all overlapping. It seemed like everyone had their own record label, everyone was bringing their friends in to collaborate. So actually, this is probably a good point to ask about setting up record labels because from the start you had KMS, Juan had Metroplex, Derrick had Transmat. What was the significance of having your own record labels this early in the game?

Kevin Saunderson


OK, so yeah, Juan had Metroplex, then Derrick led into Transmat. Actually my first record came out on Metroplex. It actually...

Christine Kakaire


Kreem.

Kevin Saunderson


The first version came out on Metroplex Records and I was like, I was kind of observant and I was like, well shoot I could do that, I can give it to the DJs, I can promote it, I wanted to do it myself. You know because I felt like I wanted to control what I wanted to do with my record and then I could tell like I gave it to Juan and it felt like I didn’t know what was going on so I was like, “Juan, I want my record back.” And you know, he was cool about it, he was cool and he said, “No problem.” So I got it back, did some remixes and that’s when KMS started. I started that. I wanted to start because of the reason I just said, I wanted to be able to... I didn’t want nobody to tell me how to put my music out, how to play it. I wanted to control that and I didn’t want to be tied to anyone else’s timeline.

Christine Kakaire


So this is the Kreem release you’re talking about? Well let’s fast forward to this first instance of you getting a production and writing credit on a record. So this is you and Juan Atkins as Kreem. I’m gonna play the track "Triangle Of Love," which I think is like a direct predecessor for what comes later, particularly with the use of vocals, so let’s listen to a little bit of "Triangle Of Love."

(music: Kreem – Triangle Of Love")

So that was a little bit of "Triangle Of Love" by Kreem. How did that track come together because to me I can definitely hear elements of the kind of music that you’d be hearing at Paradise Garage, especially the vocal. How did that all come together?

Kevin Saunderson

Well, I like vocal music, I like melodies, and I thought about Paradise Garage and when I decided I was gonna make my first record, somehow I wanted it to be a vocal record. I fell into that path. So before the vocals, and trying to put this track together, basically it was really just a lot of drums and different elements. The musical part really didn’t come in until later, and Juan played a very important role because I had... First of all I had a different bassline, so Juan changed the bassline. What I told Juan is, “I got this track, I feel like it’s almost finished but I don’t know how to finish it,” because at that time my production level was nowhere near like Juan’s. I know how to do some drums, I can maybe play a bassline and hum out a melody or get a keyboard player to play it for me like I think I want it. So I got all that and I got like eight tracks, so I’m working with a Fostex eight-track. I got seven actually I think, because you gotta leave one for the sync. But I don’t know how to finish the track, so everything is playing, there’s no arrangement it’s just like everything is just playing straight and I got my drums and my rows and everything is just going but I’m like, “Well what do you do from here?” Because I never actually seen anyone finish the track. We all got together and you could see Derrick and everybody working on stuff but never knew how to finish it.

So Juan, I called up, I told him I needed him to help me finish this song. So Juan basically said, “All right, well how much money you got?” That’s what he said. I said, “Man I ain’t got no money.” He said, “Well, what kind of pieces of equipment you got?” So I had to... I had a sampler and I wasn’t really into using samplers so I just had this sampler, it was the Akai 800 or something like that, if I remember correctly. So I said, “I got this sampler over here.” He said, “That’ll work.” So he came over and finished the track. But now I see Juan, I’m right there with him so I could see how he mixing and how he arranging. He decided to change the bassline, which later I found out was kind of like an influence from New Order, at the time I didn’t even know. But then he mixed it and I was missing those elements, like how to mix it and take it to two-track and make sections and splice it together, your arrangement together, but I had no clue about that part. So once Juan showed me that I was off and rolling. I knew what to do and this is my first production but things elevated for me because now I got a record company, or I mean it came out on Juan’s label first but eventually I had my record company and I was able to... I didn’t need nobody to show me what to do no more so now there was no holding me back.

Christine Kakaire


So in this period of having this masterclass from Juan about how to finish your tracks, and realizing that nothing is holding you back, you went into a period of high productivity, I understand. I believe you also needed to replace a vocalist. Was it the vocalist from that particular track who...

Kevin Saunderson


Well, this track, the vocalist... I replaced her on the new version I released on my label. I worked with a guy named Duane Bradley. He played on the radio too. He played daytime, more or less. He did mix show. A decent ear for production, he was a good guy, and he was a fan, and he was into... He was like a New York version of... He was a Detroit guy but very New York-y as far as the music style he played and influences and the way he thought about production, so I worked with him on that next record and he was the one who was like, “Well, we need to work on these vocals,” That’s when I brought another vocalist in for that project, but then it changed again when Inner City came about because she just wanted to sing gospel so that was really my last time working with that singer.

Christine Kakaire


So at this point enters Paris Grey, who I believe, you were telling me yesterday, you sent her the track, she wrote the vocals for “Big Fun” and then sung them to you over the phone, is that right?

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah, yeah. So in between all this, I went from Kreem to working with Derrick and James Pennington on an EP at that time, and then I went into Reese & Antonio, so I had a few things going on but it was more underground, it was different. I wasn’t trying to be vocals. If it was vocals it was vocals like, “Bounce Your Body To The Box,” stuff like that, “Just Want Another Chance,” and then Paris came about as I had this music that I had already been working on with James Pennington that became “Big Fun.” She did write the lyrics and she sung it over the phone, I listened to it and I brought her to Detroit to do the vocals and we had to go to Juan’s studio because I needed more tracks again to, and Juan played another significant role. He mixed it for me. I knew how to mix at that time but I was like just, I was all over the place. Making tracks, doing this, you know. So Juan, he did the mix on it. The music was already there and he just finished it for me.

Christine Kakaire


But that particular track kind of joined the archive of things that you were working on, I’m talking about “Big Fun” here. But it wasn’t until another person entered the picture by the name of Neil Rushton. It’d be great if you could talk about how you first encountered each other.

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah Neil, he became my manager eventually, but I first came in contact with Neil through Derrick May. Derrick May met him because Derrick had “Strings Of Life” going on, big buzz. Neil contacted Derrick saying, “Hey man, I want to license this record,” and Derrick was like, “It’s too late I already gave it to...” whoever he had signed it to and so Neil told him, “Well, if you ever run into any problems later on down the line,” or he said, “If you ever have any issues or anything, you need some advice, just give me call.” So, Derrick ran into some issues, got in contact with Neil, they started building their relationship and Derrick actually ended up going to England, to meet Neil. He met Neil and hung out there for whatever, a week or two, came back, told us his experience in England and what was going on over there and the music he was hearing from us over there and Chicago and all that. Beause he was the first one to travel like that, so we went off of his word basically what was going on over there, and Neil ended up coming back to Detroit to meet myself, Juan, Eddie, just the whole crew, Blake Baxter, I guess Mike [Banks] too. Members Of The House and whoever else I might have forgot at that time that was on that album, but he listened. He met with us all separately, listened to all our music and “Big Fun” was one of the tracks I played for him that ended up getting licensed on this Detroit techno compilation that eventually came out with “Big Fun” on it and all the other Detroit producers, DJs at the time.

Christine Kakaire


Yes that compilation was called Techno! The New Dance Sound Of Detroit and from what I understand, I don’t know if it’s myth or reality, was that Neil Rushton and had put together a compilation of Chicago music and it was Chicago house and the intention was to call this Detroit house but at some point the word techno was adopted. So you have any insight about that?

Kevin Saunderson


Well, I don’t really remember but I know Juan, this is what Juan tells me, that’s what I hear that it was called house, or the sound of Detroit House, whatever it was called, but and Juan said, “No, no, no, no this is techno, Detroit techno.” So that’s what Juan says that he told Neil, “We’re gonna call this Detroit techno,” and that’s... and Juan always called it techno. I knew techno from Juan from the very beginning. I didn’t even know the word techno until I heard Juan say the word techno and that was always his theory.

Christine Kakaire


It’s great to hear you speak with such a reverence for Juan because the three of you, you’re known as the Belleville Three, Juan, Derrick, and yourself, but within that you all have your superhero names. Like Juan is the originator, Derrick is the innovator, and you are the elevator. And I think this would be a fantastic opportunity to watch a couple of videos from this compilation, the biggest hit which went on to become a single, and turned into this amazing video that we’re gonna see, was “Big Fun.” And I was so thrilled that I watched this video closely last night and asked you earlier if that’s you dancing in the background and it definitely is.

Christine Kakaire


So let’s have a look at video number three which is Inner City’s first single, “Big Fun.”

(video: Inner City – "Big Fun")

So that was the video for Big Fun by Inner City. You said you hadn’t watched that video for a few years now, what’s it like seeing it back again?

Kevin Saunderson


Bring back some amazing times, just a great time for music and how things evolved. It moves really quickly and, you know, 1987 is when I put my first record out on my label, 1988 I’m having this huge hit success a year or so later. I thought it was a dream.

Christine Kakaire


I mean did you have a sense of how things were changing for you, coming from this like hotbed production community and then having a breakout hit like “Big Fun” which is being consumed almost like pop music where it’s all about the performer and the performance. How was that transition for you and for Paris?

Kevin Saunderson


Well, I mean, I wanted to stay in the background pretty much and that was my whole plan.

Christine Kakaire

Literally.

Kevin Saunderson

Yeah, exactly, just like in the video. But I just wanted to make music and I wanted to be this great DJ. It did change things for me because I had to go on these shows and do all these like Top of the Pops and stuff like that, which at the beginning I definitely wasn’t comfortable doing but I did it because it was kind of the beginning. I had to learn my way and I was a developing artist. I was more a producer than an artist, for sure. I didn’t have the vision to want to be that kind of artist but it happened because of my inspiration, because I was blessed, and the timing and I wasn’t one-dimensional either. I like different forms of music, I like the dark, dirty underground shit too, but I like to sing a song too and feel it in my soul, so because of the success it came with it.

Christine Kakaire


Speaking of Top of the Pops we do have a little clip of that that I’d love to play as well.

Kevin Saunderson


Oh boy. [laughter]

Christine Kakaire


But of course you have this big breakout hit and at that time, it was kind of towards the beginning of 1988, is that correct?

Kevin Saunderson


It was like September, October the record might've came out.

Christine Kakaire

OK.

Kevin Saunderson


But it came out on my label, it came out on the compilation, so it was bubbling like crazy throughout the whole summer.

Christine Kakaire

But of course, as is the case in record label land, big major label land, if you have a hit you’re expected to deliver another hit, which you did with “Good Life,” which alongside with “Big Fun” formed the basis of this album, and I think it’s worth mentioning just how popular this album and these tracks were. I think eight of these tracks made it onto the British Top 100 in terms of single sales.

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah I don’t know if it was eight, it was definitely five for sure. I believe five for sure.

Christine Kakaire


And you had a similar success in the US with the Billboard Dance Charts as well.

Kevin Saunderson


Definitely, definitely.

Christine Kakaire


Okay well let’s have just a little look at this video from Top of the Pops because I think it’s worth reinforcing how much of a crossover act Inner City had become. So if we could play, let’s just play a minute and a half of this video of Inner City performing “Good Life” at Top of the Pops in December, 1988.

(video: Inner City – “Good Life” (live on Top Of The Pops))

What are your memories from that? Do you have any memories from that? Were you kind of directed, told what to do?

Kevin Saunderson


Just felt uncomfortable, a lot of anxiety. Like, “What the hell am I doing up here?” I mean really, that’s how I felt.

Christine Kakaire


It’s funny because you’re just like endlessly queuing this one record in the background it’s amazing.

Kevin Saunderson


You know it was just moving so quick and I’m a studio producer so it’s like, you’re out of your environment really because you’re not in the studio, so things have changed obviously now. You can basically take your studio on the road with you and perform and do stuff that you at least used to do or that you do in the studio, but it’s still a great experience. Paris was the star, she needed to be the star and I just played whatever role I needed to play to be a part, because I was a part.

Christine Kakaire


OK so you talked about you were a studio person, you wanted to be in the studio, you were in the studio, so I think this is probably a good time to follow another pretty epic line of your discography. I didn’t realize until you mentioned this to me yesterday but you are credited with creating the first dance remix, in terms of not just doing an edit but essentially gutting a track and reforming it in a different context, so it’d be great to hear a little bit about this work that you also did in 1988.

Kevin Saunderson


Yeah I went to England, as Neil was trying to get me work in the market, so he asked me, and I think Derrick also, did we want to do some remixes while we were over there, try and do a little DJ tour, it’s early days and promoting the techno compilation. So early ’88 I took on this project called the Wee Papa Girl Rappers and it was for Jive Records. I hadn’t heard the track, these days you listen to the track, you decide if you want to do it but it was just like, “Do you wanna do a remix on this track?” So I was like, “Sure, I’ll do whatever. I’m here.” I wanted to make time go by while I was there and do something with my time at the same time so I worked on this track. I went in the studio, heard the track for the first time. I was like, “What the hell am I gonna do with this track?” I didn’t know what I was gonna do with it because I was used to making music, my music, not taking somebody else's tracks and trying to make them work for me.

Then I knew like, OK, people like Shep Pettibone and Jellybean Benitez and all them was doing remixes, a lot of disco stuff, which extended it and made it easy for DJs to play. So I had a challenge there, if I was gonna go that direction I felt like it wasn’t anything that I would play myself. If I edit it and make it, and extend it, it still wouldn’t fit to where I wanted to get, so my approach was to lose everything and to make a track, and make sure it was in the same key, and take a bit of the vocals, and use it over my track and that’s how that kinda happened. And then it was like the first time that had happened, so the record company... I mean I did it and then instantly it was something I felt like I could play, that fit into what was going on at the same time.

So the record company, they... I mean I don’t actually think they hated it, they just couldn’t believe it, and the artists couldn’t believe it as well because the producers were Fine Young Cannibals I think, of the actual track, and they weren’t very happy about it but somehow I guess they let some other people hear it, they gave it some DJs and it just, it blew up from that, and all of a sudden I’m doing all these remixes, kind of just following the same format and other people are following that and that’s how that ended up happening, basically.

Christine Kakaire


The inspiration begins again with the remixes. But I think that we should listen to just a little snippet of the original version of this track which is called “Heat It Up” by Wee Papa Girl Rappers which is a British hip-house duo, twin sisters. And then we’ll listen to your Detroit House Mix directly afterwards.

(music: Wee Papa Girl Rappers – “Heat It Up”)

(music: Wee Papa Girl Rappers – “Heat It Up (Detroit House Mix)”)

So that was the Detroit House Mix of Wee Papa Girl Rappers. Where did you start with this track? I mean, you talked about wanting to strip all the bits that you didn’t want away, do you remember how you actually made it?

Kevin Saunderson


I just used the vocals and I had to use some trigger device, I can’t remember what it was, where I could sample like 30 seconds... No not 30 seconds, like five seconds, ten seconds, something like that. You can only do that amount and I was able to trigger that vocal to make that “It’s like that” layer. I think I started with that, working it over some drums and I got a TB-303. That might have been the first or second time I worked with a 303. I just filled it out, built drums, a little bass and just kept working it until I felt like it was working.

Christine Kakaire


What’s your working process like because you seem to be somebody who is especially prolific and working on a range of things, particularly around this time period. Are you a start to finish kind of person? Do have numerous projects going at the same time? Has your process changed over time?

Kevin Saunderson


Well back in those days, when you went in the studio and I got a 24-hour block, I was done within 24 hours. Sometimes I was done in 12 hours. The only thing that kept me from completing a project was if we had technical difficulties and there was plenty of technical difficulties with using tape. If you needed to use anything from the actual track or you needed to really use the vocals, just didn’t have the technology that you have now to do it. And then I had all the time in the world. I was young and I didn’t have any commitments so I could just work endlessly in the studio as I did back in Detroit and that’s why I had all these tons of aliases ‘cause I just kept making music and I was like, “I‘ma just gonna put that under that brand. I’ma put it out under that,” ‘cause I just wanted so much music to come out. So that was my approach on remixes and I think now, if I make a track, I will sometimes play it... I make it just for me and I might play it for two or three months, just play it in my sets before I even revisit it. It’s a different approach. You know, with technology you can test stuff out a little different. It’s just a different time now. I think people tend to take their time with tracks a lot more than we did back then. And I mean even me, you know I’m all over the place, I’m still playing all around the world, I have a family, so I try to balance everything. And I don’t have any super commitments to finishing anything ‘cause I don’t really have to unless I feel like I need to. And then when it’s finished, it’s finished. Or when I feel like it’s finished, it’s finished.

Christine Kakaire


[laughs] OK, you mentioned your aliases and I do want to talk about Reese in particular. But you also just mentioned your family and I think it’s worth noting that KMS Records and Inner City has become something of a family affair. Is it two of your adult sons who are on the same path as you?

Kevin Saunderson


Well, well, OK. So Dantiez, one of my sons, he runs KMS more or less, A&Rs it, puts out records, every now and again I’ll bring a record into the whole pot and say, “Hey, we should put this out.” But he also is... He’s partnering up with Inner City, so the new music... We got a track out now, we got a track coming out in another month I think, anything that’s new from Inner City, he’s doing 90% of the music and he’s moving on with that project. There’s no longer... Paris Grey is no longer part of Inner City because she is basically retired. He wanted to take on the project, I thought it was good and I gave him some coaching and I’m still a part of that. My other son, they work together on tracks as the Saunderson Brothers and they work individually too, so it’s a family affair too, and we have a studio that never stops. I guarantee somebody is using it right now. [laughter]

Christine Kakaire


Okay, let’s revisit one of your aliases, Reese. I’m gonna play a little part of a track called “Just Want Another Chance.” And this is also from 1988. And then we’re gonna talk a little bit about it afterwards.

(music: Reese – "Just Want Another Chance")

So that was “Just Want Another Chance” by Reese, which is one of your aliases. Tell us about that bassline in that track?

Kevin Saunderson


You know when I was creating that bass, I was thinking dark, deep, I was thinking Paradise Garage. And I created it on a CZ-1000. So I just got into the parameters which I always enjoyed doing because sometimes when you’re creating sounds, it can inspire you to play a certain way or you hear something that inspires you to play something on top of that. And you can also change your direction, I’ve played lines that were just okay sounding, but all of a sudden, I get into parameters and I’ve morphed that and changed it in a way where all of a sudden it’s amazing, the line, where you wouldn’t think I would get that out of it. Experimentation, just experimentation with no rules. That’s as simple as that.

Christine Kakaire


And so this particular bassline was taken to by drum & bass producers, and jungle producers in the UK. So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna play a little bit of a track called “Terrorist.” Which is by an act called Renegade which was Ray Keith and Gavin Cheung, and this is from 1994, and you can hear that exact same bassline in this track, so let’s have a listen.

(music: Renegade – “Terrorist”)

So this lifting of that element of your track came out six years after “Just Want Another Chance.” At what point did you become aware that this bassline, and then, after that, the bassline treatment, became the 'Reese bassline' which is such a staple of drum & bass and jungle music now?

Kevin Saunderson


Well I used to hang out in London a lot. I used to hang out with Fabio & Grooverider, so I used to you know used to always talk about, “Oh man, your bass, your bass!” So until I went actually to hear him play, it seemed like every three or four records, every track I heard, it was some form of that bass sound, it had been sampled, or replayed. I don’t know what year, whenever they was at... I think it was Heaven, I don’t know what the night was called. It was in London. But I recognized it through them before I... I mean I didn’t know because I was just hanging out listening to them play drum & bass. And I was like, “Wow, every three or four records, here come another Reese bass,” you know? So it became definitely a staple and it sat in many, many, many tunes, I know that, so. It was also a compliment in a way. Hey, they didn’t create it, but they was able to grab it and use it creatively.

Christine Kakaire


Yeah. OK so the last section that I want to talk about, which I think brings this conversation... Rounds it off quite nicely. You talked about hanging out in the UK with big drum & bass DJs at that point in time, people who were taking music that was kind of coming from that hardcore continuum and elements of ragga and elements of techno as well. You have another alias named, E-Dancer, which is known for being quite no-nonsense, tough, dark, dancefloor-driven tracks. That’s an alias that first arrived around 1991. But what I would like to play is... OK, so there’s a pretty well known track of the E-Dancer discography from ’97, I believe, called “Velocity Funk.” And again, through deep diving into Discogs, I realized that the origins of this track is a remix that you had done for the electro-funk group Cameo in 1991. So this period of the late ’80s, early ’90s, where did you find the hours in the day? But also how did this remix come together? Because you specifically called it The Hardcore Mix, so you were making a nod to the stuff that was going on in the UK which was influenced by what you’d been doing, so tell us all about it.

Kevin Saunderson


I was hanging out in the UK, so I would go to raves and all that, and part of it I really liked, and some of the music I really hate, but there was elements that was interesting. And sections that was really good. So I was influenced, I would say subconsciously, and when I got into the studio, especially when I was working a remix, I was like, “I’m just gonna mess around with this,” you know? And see how it come out. And I ended up liking it. So it was Cameo. And I thought it was just a bizarre mixture of music and the artist. ‘Cause I grew up listening to Cameo. So, the record company released it, majors, especially back then, they didn’t really know what they had, they might put it there a little, promote it, under-promote it, whatever. It kind of floated out to some people, many people didn’t get it, so I decided to just go back and redo it and use it as an E-Dancer. So that’s how you noticed that and then the change over.

Christine Kakaire


OK. Well let’s listen to a little bit of the original of “Money” by Cameo and then directly after that, I’m gonna play “Velocity Funk.” And then we can wrap up before we open it up to questions.

(music: Cameo – “Money”)

(music: E-Dancer – “Velocity Funk”)

I mean it’s almost impossible to imagine putting those two tracks together, but with the remix which you did, which unfortunately I don’t have, you managed to do that. But what I want to do before we open it up to questions, is ask about how inspiration and reiteration is still continuing with you. I know that with your E-Dancer project, you put out an album in 1998, called Heavenly and I believe it was last year there was Heavenly Revisited, and it kind of continues to iterate itself as does Belleville Three, you’ve been doing live shows. It would be great to get a sense of how all of these strands of your projects are still continuing to evolve now.

Kevin Saunderson


Well I'm not gonna have 10,000 aliases like before, so really i'm just doing Inner City, I’m doing E-Dancer now. So what I decide when I play E-Dancer, I decided a couple years ago I want to revisit it and do some tweaks, but sometimes the new generations don’t find the music from the past so I thought what was a way to connect the two, and then maybe they’ll go back and find the original album if they like what they hear. With the new album it was really still mainly the old album, with just some modifications as far as mixing and some slight arrangement things. Maybe adding some fills, I did stuff like that with ...Revisited. And I also added two or three new E-Dancer tracks to that record as well. So I just felt like it was necessary. I’ve been doing this for 30-something years, and I felt like the music is still great, I think it’s still important. So I’ve done that. And I’ve been doing some live shows featuring some of those tracks in some of the live shows. I’ve also worked on another version that’s gonna be coming out that’s totally downtempo, totally ambient, very relaxed but very strong, with the same music. But it’s gonna surprise people. Very orchestrated.

Stuff like that is a challenge, but it inspires me to take those chances and do what you want to do, and try to do what you want to do and achieve. So I’ve done that with E-Dancer and some of that will be coming very soon. With Belleville Three, me, Derrick and Juan decided to get together and tour, and the original concept was, “Let’s tour and let’s put some of our great tracks together and let’s do a live tour.” And go to some of our favorite places around the world and just do it properly, something that we haven’t done, and maybe add a few new tracks or tracks by each other, or maybe collab on two or three tracks and add it to the project. 


Well the process took longer than anticipated trying to get there. So what we end up doing is doing a DJ tour for four, five dates, having three individual setups. So that’s what we ended up trying, it worked 50% of the time. I mean when do something like that, it’s totally an experiment, ‘cause you’ve got three different minds, three different ways of thinking, we’re not sitting down practicing and trying to format anything. It’s more like whatever happens, happens. You get on stage, either it’s gonna sound like shit or it’s gonna sound great. Sometimes you have amazing moments too that you cannot recapture either, so what we decided was we not gonna do that. If we go back out together, it will be completely live, playing some of our classic records and hopefully a couple new tracks together, so that’s kind of the next phase of that, Belleville Three.

Christine Kakaire


Well hopefully you’ll be elevating for another 30 years.

Kevin Saunderson


Hey, as long as I stay healthy, I’ll be here.

Christine Kakaire


Please thank Kevin Saunderson. [applause] So at this point we’ll open up to questions particularly from our participants. If you have any please raise your hand.

Audience member

Respect Kevin.

Kevin Saunderson

Hey.

Audience member

Yeah I was just wondering when was the moment that you created this timeless techno stuff that has been used countless times. When was the moment that you created that style?

Kevin Saunderson

Oh when did I create it?

Audience member

Yeah.

Kevin Saunderson

Oh man, 1985, ’86, ’87. Yeah ’87, ’86, ’87, all that, ’88. You know all that stuff was created back then. But it still began, it really began in ’82, ‘cause you know the foundation was, learn how to be a DJ, then it was learn how to work a drum machine, then it was learn how to get a sequence and do a bassline and then it was just adding pieces to the puzzle and learning. So the development really was between ’82 and I would say ’87 before the first record came out.

Audience Member

Hey, thank you so much. I just want to ask, is there any particular contemporary dance music that you’re excited about? Anyone you want to mention?

Kevin Saunderson

I don’t even listen to... I don’t even look at titles. When I’m musically playing something or listening to something, I never looking at the titles, so I never know what the hell... Even if I am, if I think it’s great, I really don’t know. It’s not like back in the day were you really knew each record and each artist because I had all that time to be educated or really absorb it. So it's a different time for me. So when I hear shit, I mean I hear lots of great music and there’s still plenty of great music out there. But I can’t even give you a name or the artist or the act, just can’t.

Audience Member

You spoke quite a bit about the people who are influencing you as a producer and mentoring you there. But who are some of your mentors as a DJ that helped inspire your style in that particular format?

Kevin Saunderson

DJ wise, OK. Larry Levan. Tony Humphries. Ron Hardy. Derrick May. Even though me and Derrick is at the same age, Derrick, especially back then, just did amazing shit. He would take chances. And he was ruthless. It’s almost like being a sports guy, being a competitor at the same time. But having no fear. So that’s what I loved about Derrick. Ron Hardy just... Derrick was influenced from Ron Hardy. Ron Hardy was the first one messing with the high end, taking out the bass, low end, bringing it back in, crowd screaming. Keeping it out for two or three minutes, stuff like that. That’s some of the ones.

Audience Member

Could tell us about the music scene in the late ’80s, early ’90s in Detroit in terms of, were there many clubs? Were you going out? Were you even DJing that much in your home city? Because from what I’ve heard, sometimes a lot of pioneering musicians in America have never fully been appreciated in their home country or home city and have had to go to Europe to find success. So if you could tell us a bit about that.

Kevin Saunderson

So, back in those days, the first gigs... Juan was doing these Deep Space parties. He had this little following, and it was all urban black kids, basically. At least it was probably 95% just black. People from the cities, going to schools. And then it elevated from that to these kids going to college, to also following the music that Juan and then Eddy and then myself were creating. Derrick and all of us, Blake. And we were playing also. So the parties we were playing, the parties I was playing, were parties on the campus. Fraternity parties and events like that. We were actually playing at different universities, stuff like that. As far as clubs, there was a club called Cheeks, I remember the first time I went there I heard Al Ester. Great DJ, he could play, he was playing back then. We had Ken Collier playing and maybe a little later in the ’80s or early ’90s, I remember Heaven.

What else in Detroit? I mean the Music Institute of course. The Music Institute was where Derrick's residency, it started out as me and Derrick's residency, but because of Inner City, I kind of got dragged out of the Music Institute to touring within the city and a guy named D-Wynn ended up taking my spot and playing there, ‘cause it was every an week thing, that was the place. That’s where Richie Hawtin, many people came that was within the surrounding area to be inspired hearing all this great music from Detroit and from Chicago, from wherever. So that’s kind of what was happening at the time.

But we did have to go overseas and it was a gap for me because of Inner City. Some people didn’t even realize that I was a DJ, it took a while to kind of reestablish myself as a DJ. But we had to go overseas to really get that love and then it turned around with having our own festival in Detroit. I think in the US it’s better, much better than it was years ago, now, today. I play probably more in the US then I play in Europe and that was unheard of.

Audience member

Yeah I just wanted to ask about coming from America, when you guys first popped in Europe, do you remember the specific moment that that happened? And was there a specific person or a bridge that helped you guys establish yourselves in Europe?

Kevin Saunderson

Well I mean I would think 1988 is when it really took off because for me, obviously I had the Inner City success, but I had “Rock To the Beat.” I had all this other stuff going on, “Just Want Another Chance.” You had Derrick with “Strings Of Life,” Already had “Nude Photo” out. Then you had other cats coming in from Detroit like UR as that whole thing started to develop and Octave One started developing. Everything started, Carl Craig, so it all happened from the compilation. It all happened because of England, they jumped on board, and Neil Rushton was the person who introduced us. So that’s the specific person who got us over there. Even though we were over there in a way, it got us the deal that triggered other things. ‘Cause we triggered ourself because we put out records. We DJ’d and we controlled our own labels so no one could stop it, it's just where it was gonna be placed in the end.

Audience member

As somebody who's had many aliases, I’m just curious how did you come up with the names?

Kevin Saunderson

Man I would just sit back and listen to music and just daydream and just feel like, “It feels like that. This feels like that.” And then you know, sometimes I wanted it to be, she had mentioned like there was some influence with the UK rave scene right? So like Tronik House, that was specifically, I was gonna use some breaks. I knew I’m gonna start this track out, I’m gonna mess with some breaks and chop up some breaks and try to include that type of thing in there. But just sometimes I create the music and then came up with the aliases. It wasn’t really that I came up with the alias first, you know?

Audience member

Whatever fit the music.

Kevin Saunderson

Huh?

Audience member

Whatever fit the music.

Kevin Saunderson

Yeah, whatever fit the music and it felt like the Reese project, it was more soulful. It was a little more downtempo, it wasn’t as fast as some of the other stuff. It was different singers from Detroit. And everybody wanted me to produce them. I can’t produce everybody so I was like, well yeah I can put two or three tracks of you guys together and you all kind of got this gospel type effect. And I thought let me do... You trigger ideas like that. And then you make the music and it works.

Audience member

Cool.

Audience member

Hi.

Kevin Saunderson

Hello.

Audience Member

Thank you for sharing your story. I wonder, do you remember the first time you played in Berlin? And can you recall how you experienced the techno scene here when you came?

Kevin Saunderson

Man, I played Berlin. I don’t remember the first moment. Here’s what I do remember. Not as a DJ, I remember as Inner City, I played Berlin and I played right when the wall came down, right? So I remember walking over and getting a piece of the wall and we did this constant, big... It was with Kool & the Gang, and S.O.S. Band and Inner City and Diva something, I’m trying to think of her name. I can’t remember, but I think it was maybe 1989 and ’90. So I think that was the first time I even came over here. But I remember distinctly getting a piece of the wall, going on stage, holding it up and I did it like Inner City theme, like it was really a powerful, magnetic, special moment. And then through the years, I remember coming back and I seen the scene developing. I remember it being very fast, very dark, very aggressive, but they had a buried underground scene going on. I do remember that.

Christine Kakaire

I think that’s the final question. So once again, thank you Kevin Saunderson. [applause]

Kevin Saunderson

All right, thank you, thank you.