Kim Changwan

DJ Soulscape

Hello, nice to meet you. For everyone who is here today, we have invited someone who is very difficult to meet even once in a lifetime. I am honored to be here as the organizer of this event. I would like to thank Changwan for accepting the invitation and also the audience who have been here since the early morning. My name is DJ Soulscape and this is Mr. Kim Changwan. [applause]

Kim Changwan

Hello everyone. I’m happy to see you.

DJ Soulscape

Mr. Kim Changwan, I am sure all of you know him very well but let me give an official introduction. Sanullim was a band that was very important in the history of Korean music, not only for its fame but in terms of music history or the changes in musical style, or in dealing with very Korean elements or themes. Through the late ’70s and the ’80s, they put forth the definition of Korean rock. There are many other elements. We’ll cover them today. There are elements of post-rock, new wave, and even music with a very electronic approach so we have brought all that music here today.

In a way, from my perspective, these are things that I would bring up with him and say, “Wow, you released this kind of album?” So these are the tracks that I would ask him about personally. Really, so many people here are musicians and producers, so there are many things that they can learn from Mr. Kim.

First, let’s skip most of the typical questions or information we can find online, because searching online is very easy these days and you can look up most of the basic information. Of course if there are things we can go into more detail we’ll talk about it. People who are gathered here are from a wide age range so some people here might not know that Sanullim started with three brothers. The younger generation might know about you through the Kim Changwan Band. It would be great if you could tell us a little about the band’s early days.

Kim Changwan

It’s on record that we debuted in the winter of 1977, but it really started when I was freshman at college. Our origin goes back to 1971. I was 17 in 1971 and my brothers are all two years apart. So the second brother was 15 and the last one was 13. That was the beginning of Sanullim. But actually our world of music back then was too parochial and entirely consisted of stuff we learned in the elementary and middle school music classes. So Sanullim began without knowledge in music and that’s why it’s pointless trying to discover the musical disposition of our band because we didn’t really know music. There were also no one in our family, like our mother or father, who did music.

However, I didn’t know what it was, but music fascinated me more than any other games could. So when we were 17, 15 and 13 years old we would drum spoon cases and play acoustic guitars and have such an exciting time. It was so interesting, how we would have so much fun playing this game everyday. So we never thought we would do some kind of music but it’s just that we were into playing music much more than any other game our peers would be into.

DJ Soulscape

This might be an inappropriate question. Have you ever thought that without your brothers, you wouldn’t have felt such a big fascination for music?

Kim Changwan

Yes, of course, now that I’m doing the Kim Changwan Band, I keep asking myself how it’s different from Sanullim. There are things that can’t be explained. Something the Kim Changwan Band can’t emulate. It might be something that only brothers can have. As Sanullim we crossed over to many different genres like electronic music that were difficult to do in the music industry at the time. In retrospect, we enjoyed these unknown things. We didn’t just try to express the things we were familiar with but enjoyed the unfamiliarity.

Also, most of all, if there is one thing that Sanullim first challenged the established music scene with, it’s the form. That’s what we first rebelled against. At the time, lyrics were put on music according to a fixed form but that was like wearing uncomfortable clothes. I said this in an interview at the time, “If you are sad, just cry. Isn’t writing sad songs kind of hypocritical?” The frame of that fixed form. It was a rebellion against fixed form lyrics to start a song with, “Doesn’t have to be”. Having that fixed form made me want to destroy other values like aesthetic views. So we destroyed the lyrics first then destroyed the melody. We kept growing our ideas and kept on challenging.

At the time, we gradually started challenging our set values and established orders. So first we threw off these uncomfortable clothes by throwing off the fixed form lyrics. Then we threw off the melodies. Then we started challenging those ideas that we should just put our head down, study and listen to the grown-ups. Actually we wrote so many songs but they all couldn’t pass the censorship. So the lyrics had to be changed or we had to use sarcasm. All the things we wanted to express openly are all submerged. But on the other hand having to submerge these metaphorical and subtle messages rather than explicitly expressing them became a shield that preserved our values for a long time. It became a shell and helped our true values survive until now.

DJ Soulscape

So in a way, you created a shield.

Kim Changwan

Yes, it became a shield. Also, it’s kind of awkward but if you are here in this hall to discover something you can use for your career, and I’ve been talking about fixed form and my experience starting, I’m not trying to give you guidance. I reject such things.

So what I’m saying here today is something you must escape from. It shouldn’t be a goal for you. It is your choice but that’s what I think. Start off from where I am. Honestly, I don’t know a lot of things. I thought I would learn the answer a little by little throughout my life but I gave up a long time ago. I don’t even think it’s important to know the answers. Accepting that you don’t know much about the world is sometimes very comforting. The unknown world and the fact that we existed in this mystical world, this miracle, gives me that scent of life that I haven’t felt before. Once I know something for certain, I begin to doubt it. This is my habit. Even if I were happy, as soon as I realize that I’m happy, I doubt my happiness right away. Whenever I was certain of who I was, as soon as that thought hit me, I have always destroyed it. So today I stand before you, not as Kim Changwan who comes in a certain form or a meaning but as Kim Changwan who is newly formed with you. That’s my wish. Min Jun [Soulscape] is someone who always feels fresh. He is always changing and dynamic. He feels that way a lot.

DJ Soulscape

Thank you. So I actually thought that with the music I brought today, your music and the associated image that I got from listening to them as I was growing up and the image I had after actually studying it, and also what you have explained just now are all very different. Some of your more stereotyped work are the ones that are well known, and then there are your children’s music albums that we have grown up with, and we heard your folk hits, and also on TV or through media we see a certain one dimensional image of you and your band.

But once I looked into your albums I found a sound that’s sometimes more rough or really urban, or albums by Hyunhee that you always describe as a “ghost’s wail.” Those elements, if we look and try to find another band who rejected and deconstructed sounds like you did, we can’t. Especially from the late ’70s to the late ’80s, the music scene pursued a specific type of popular music but they didn’t really go for something iconoclastic.

I really cherish the idea of the so-called leftfield among DJs or electronic musicians. This radically progressive and outside-the-box approach to music is much needed. Because the equipment we use and the methods have become very standardized. Everyone has the same standard equipment. So it has become much more important to bring your personality and ideas. Something I felt while studying Changwan’s music over 20 years is that this deconstruction is something that’s very difficult to do as a band. In my opinion. Because in general, when you meet a friend or two and form a band, this radical thinking and deconstruction is difficult with another person. You can get into a lot of conflict. But I thought maybe as brothers you had a chemistry that let it happen?

Kim Changwan

That’s right. Certainly. I can’t just point to the brothers’ chemistry as the answer but it’s true that it’s there. Even as we brothers were doing music together, what’s important was the process of coming to an agreement. The kind where we were in a tacit agreement to deconstruct an established form. If it was between other people, during that process one’s ideas can change. That process can make you deviate musically. It can blur the theme although it might make the song popular, it will castrate the uniqueness. So the fact that we have gone through the trouble of doing music only between us brothers may have set the stage to do something provocative. Another important environment was that until the early ’70s or even the late ’70s, the main consumers of music were adults. The establishment.

The kind of music that took the center stage was what we call old people music today. But our band’s music was continuously excluded from the scene and persecuted and censored by the ethics committee. So we were in this very bad environment to do music. But if we were acknowledged back then as “good music,” it would have sucked a lot of the enjoyment out of doing music for us. We were greatly persecuted and branded as fringe. That bolstered our youthful passion. It was euphoric. We kept hiding from their eyes and attacked the values that they held dear. That was the circumstance that allowed us to do music everyday with joy.

Of course we were brothers and that kind of environment kept us close and became a fertile ground for us to keep our spirits up. It stimulated us. All these things would have ended if it were just us and them. But there was a bigger current. The old people music, the market and the consumers that mainly consisted of grown-ups was quickly eroding and the base was moving towards younger people. This transformation of consumers reached the college music scene, or the early ’80s ballads, or if we go a decade later into the ’90s even the elementary school students. This gigantic current has kept Sanullim’s music floating. If we did music for the establishment, something that fits their values, and was cheered instead of persecuted, we would have been ignored by the youths. But instead, thanks to the establishment that forced us to study in school and refused to recognize our music, we have become core to the tastes of young people. That has continued until today.

DJ Soulscape

Yes, that seems like a really important point.

Kim Changwan

So some would say that they are producing music in accordance to that value but that’s as difficult as planning social values. If one tries, they would put out slogans like, “The biggest strength is love,” or, “The biggest strength is honesty,” or, “It’s the youthful spirit.”. But whether these values will stick is a mystery. But there will be attempts that take a stab in the dark. Something you might want to try. So we might have a few lessons here. Like the fact that the establishment that hindered and refused to recognize us have given us fertile soil, the things that make you uncomfortable now or make you want to rebel against and resist could give you your biggest and most precious values when it comes to doing music and art.

DJ Soulscape

Since we are on the topic of resistance, it would be good to listen to a song. This is from Sanullim’s second album. “Spread the Silk in My Heart.”

(music: Sanullim – “Spread the Silk in My Heart”)

It takes 3 minutes to get to the vocal part. On the airwaves, this was the most loved song from the second album and of course there are songs like “Let’s Sing” and “What Will Happen to Me” but this is the song that most shocked people. Maybe, it’s the first memory of Sanullim for many.

My uncle first played this for me when I was in elementary school. As soon as I heard it, I thought, “It’s scary, hope it ends soon.” Once the voice starts it’s good but that intro made me think, “What are they trying to do?” Curiously, that’s what got stuck in my memory. My grandmother didn’t let me touch the record player at the time because I might break it. I always waited for my uncle to come home from work and kept asking him to play that same song over and over. I was allowed to listen to this song because the adults had heard Sanullim’s children music album first so they thought they can play Sanullim for me. But after my grandmother heard me playing this song over and over she wondered if this song was appropriate for me. I think it was a kind of resistance for me. Having them tell me not to listen to it. Them asking me why I’m listening to it. I enjoyed that. Listening to something that is beyond the children’s music that everyone gets, something that is from the unknown that only I can understand. Something I want to understand. That kind of feeling might be something that you were trying to describe earlier.

What I was most curious about was who came up with the idea to write a song with this kind of structure and whether one of the three brothers asked, “When do we finally start singing?” Also, I have heard a story from a producer who worked for a long time at KBS radio. He was asked to cut out the intro and play the song but as far as I know, the song was played in its entirety. The department head who I worked with told me that story with pride. He just went for it and played the whole thing.

Kim Changwan

People say Korean pop music is three minutes of art. When the record first came out, it played for the first time on CBS’s noon program. As soon as it came out, I went to a famous producer, Kim Jinsung. He said, “Oh, a new record came out. OK, I’ll play it as the last track quickly.” And then he played it. [laughs] So he played it and the beat goes. As it went his face turned dark. “When is the voice coming? When does the song start?” [laughter] And then while the intro was still going on, it went to time announcement. And then the radio stations requested that we cut the intro out and re-do the song.

Before that we had the song “Already Now” from the first album and it had a lot of fuzz, which is a type of distortion effect. They thought it was all noise. So they asked us for a new record. They said that there was too much noise and asked us to bring them a record that’s in better condition. So we explained, “That’s the sound.” But they would say, “That’s the sound? No, it can’t be. The record must be defective.”

DJ Soulscape

At the time, to allow for this kind of recording and this kind of album to be published, there must have been a progressive minded label or a manufacturer?

Kim Changwan

Yes. These days, the music is too industrialized so it can be more difficult to make these kind of rebellious attempts. But I think that times are also changing. I can’t comment just from my hunch but there is a new generation coming up who admires the recklessness of youth. When that time comes, although Sanullim has been the symbol of change for that era, perhaps new experiments like that need to happen.

DJ Soulscape

Forever. It can’t stop at the current level. Musically too.

Kim Changwan

Of course.

DJ Soulscape

In that sense, if I were to ask you in terms of music. I have been playing the song, “Let’s Sing.” If you look at the beginning, there are fuzz and flanger effects. So you have these guitar sounds with a bunch of effects. The fact that you made music with this sound is impressive. It really makes me jump when I hear the intro. At the time, you created all these sounds using equipment and effects pedals and production methods all without a proper producer but just yourself. I’m curious about how you came to do that.

Kim Changwan

I don’t know. These days there are all kinds of effects but at the time there were only a few special sounds. But these sounds were night and day compared to the kind of regular guitar sound. It was such a different world so by just using the effects, we felt we could make a very different music and give a very different feel. But today there are too many effects. It’s like having a hard time choosing an item at a store when there are too many options. These pedal effects cancel each other out.

The variety isn’t really important in stimulating the imagination of the listeners. We have been doing two-track recording since our first album and we only started multitrack recording on the seventh album. We had these equipment and things that were being developed, which gave us hope for a better sound. We thought doing multitrack recording would be great with editing and have many benefits. But turns out, it lacks in a few aspects, including sound itself. So recently although we had to use multitrack recording, because that’s how equipment are set up, as the Kim Changwan Band we have been using the same method we used with the two-track recording on a lot of our music. We’d rather do that recently.

DJ Soulscape

I heard that too in an interview so I brought the seventh album here today. When I listened I actually didn’t realize that this is a multitrack recording.

(music: Sanullim – “Don't Go”)

But after listening to the sound I could tell. All on separate mics. They are isolated and each vocal track seems to be in a different space. But at the same time I felt that you didn’t do multitrack to get a good take but to have more of an ensemble sound. So I think the song “Don’t Go” is the most prominent example of that. It utilized the strengths of multitrack recording while keeping the ensemble’s sound as is, even including the sound of clanking together between the bars. But like we discussed earlier, this might be possible because you were brothers in a band. I think that because the song doesn’t follow a certain musical form or convention. I’m also curious what you thought at the time so I...

Kim Changwan

But really after we did the multitrack recording, we compared our sound to foreign recordings since that’s all we could do. My sound was very, how should I say, thin. It wasn’t as effective as we hoped. There was much we had to overcome in terms of sound and recording engineering. These days recording technology is much improved but when we were releasing that music, I wasn’t a fan of it.

DJ Soulscape

But from what I heard from the engineers who did the mastering at Seoul studio and the people who pressed the record at the plant, much of the sound quality was lost in the process. Cutting out the sound arbitrarily during mastering or cutting the bass in order to jam more on the record. I heard that happened all the time.

Kim Changwan

Actually if you compare the sound from the master tape and after it’s pressed on vinyl there was a big difference. It was like you know the talkies? How there used to be a separate soundtrack that accompanied the movie reel. It sounded drawn out and compressed like that. It’s a very slightly pressed sound. It came out with a buzzing sound so we really hated the sound of vinyl.

But today we listen to mp3s which have an even smaller bandwidth so the musical environment is really bad. So many people go to LP bars now. The sound is totally different. Even if you have a flood of equipment and music, what’s the point of it? There is actually that sensation that sound can deliver. How can we feel that listening to the music as we do today?

(music: Sanullim – “Tales From a Faraway Land”)

DJ Soulscape

There are similarities between the music we have played today. In Korea we identify them as the music of Sanullim but outside, they would call it Korean psychedelic rock or Korean no wave punk. In a way, these are the kinds of music that didn’t exist in Korea but existed outside so they could be classified into categories. So in that sense, I think that the tracks that weren’t renowned in Korea are being recognized internationally.

Were you in an environment where you could listen to psychedelic rock or punk music back then in Korea?

Kim Changwan

No. That’s very important. We didn’t know. If you look it up, the Sex Pistols and we debuted in the same year. At the time, musicians who were categorized as punk were banned from playing in Korea. They couldn’t even be introduced. So there was no punk subculture or punk musicians introduced to Korea. Of course, there were pirated copies floating around.

DJ Soulscape

As far as I know, even the pirated copies of the Sex Pistols were only distributed after 1980.

Kim Changwan

That’s probably right. Before that those were big taboos. We did music with psychedelic and punk elements out of ignorance, not because we knew something. We made those without even imagining that music like that already existed in the world. Albeit we did make them with the sole thought that it would pain the grown-ups when we released the songs. The music that pained the grown-ups was all barred from being imported.

What’s this song right now? The title? “Tales from a Faraway Land.” This is a song I wrote after looking at the walls of Uijeongbu City Hospital. A song about death. This was taboo. Especially if a young kid sings about death, it would be considered degenerate. I’m sure you have heard this but there is a song called “Just the Two of Us.” The song goes, “If I had a sweet lover beside me, how great would that be?” This was considered pornographic. “Just the Two of Us” was censored for being too pornographic so I’m not exaggerating if I say that there was almost no music that young people could sing openly at the time.

DJ Soulscape

I heard this many times from people in the radio and TV. The original and unique lyrics in Sanullim’s music was a result of censorship that tried to catch them at every step. It developed its own color while taunting the censorship by straddling the line. So that’s what they think. What do you think of that?

Kim Changwan

I think they are putting us on too much of a pedestal. But this has happened. Censorship committee members were checking the music sheets. They would sometimes reject a song if it ended in a certain chord or didn’t end cleanly because that might have uncertain nuances. So I wondered what they would do if I did something different. I wrote a whole sheet of music without separating the bars. I just wrote at the top of the song that this song has no bars.

DJ Soulscape

You didn’t separate the measure?

Kim Changwan

No. No separation. If you sing it, it’s unmistakable that it’s four beats but I got rid of the measure. I was wondering what they would decide but it got passed. So I thought to myself, “Wow, that’s strange. This kind of sheet can pass.” So that happened. There was always a constant friction against the establishment.

DJ Soulscape

But this seems to be more than friction. This kind of environment was something incomprehensible to common sense so maybe you were pushed to the extremes of experimental music? I think that might be the case.

Kim Changwan

[laughs] We didn’t have that power. There was a great force. Now that the censorship is no more, it doesn’t really warrant a discussion. But there used to be a time when music was censored and even now in a way there might be another environment that controls us. I hope you will destroy those shameful devices [points to smartphone] with your own hands.

DJ Soulscape

Many of the people who gathered here including myself are music producers, although some of you are singers and rappers who take the center stage, these days the producers and beat makers are behind the scenes. So although you are making the music I’m sure there are many cases where the singer, the label or the management forces you to do a certain sound, whether you are aware or not. Although the nature is commercial rather than political, I feel that this kind of environment could be similar to the persecution in Mr. Kim Changwan’s time. Do you agree?

Kim Changwan

That’s a great comment. Back then when Elvis was the king, it was clear who was in charge in the music world. But the big artist is getting smaller and the supporting artists are becoming more prominent. Music itself too. What we have known as music is now deconstructed through different genres like rap and hip-hop. This is not so much that we are losing sight of the main component but we could actually be getting closer to the answer of the question, “What is music?”

So if there comes a stage where there is no main artist, then that might be a place that’s closest to the essence of music than we have ever been. If we don’t doubt our understanding of music, then the music won’t reflect the current moment. It will be stuck in the museum. But I am sure that all these new experiments reflect the new environment for music.

Also, we spoke a bit earlier about equipment, there are millions of samples on the computer. So anyone with a finger can make something like music. They can do that. So the current music environment feels like we are fully fed up to our necks but it’s also somewhat suffocating us. We don’t know what it is but it’s frustrating and I think many of you feel the desire to break out of it. I’m sure something will give. When I see you, I think everyone has an exit.

DJ Soulscape

No, we have no exit.

Kim Changwan

Also as I make more music, the less I know about it and the more I want to go back to the past. We sang, “Doesn’t have to be, feels like being on a cloud.” We pulled that unlikely melody out of thin air. I don’t know why I liked it. “Doesn’t have to be, feels like on a cloud.” That’s it. That’s the theme of “Likely Late Summer.” But it doesn’t really sound like a proper song, honestly. But why did I like that? What was I thinking when I pulled that out? I don’t remember anymore. We came too far from that music. So now we are trying to backtrack to that music but I forgot the password.

DJ Soulscape

When we look at the process of making music, we are trying to capture a moment. A moment that’s evaporating. So there are many random coincidences that factor in.

Kim Changwan

Oh, so it’s like making liquor.

DJ Soulscape

We always end with drinking.

Kim Changwan

We need to have some drinks here. It would be great to have some drinks here, wouldn’t it? [laughter]

DJ Soulscape

I think we are in a very dangerous territory now. Everyone here, you should be careful. We call drinking with Changwan 9 o’clock drinking. 9 o’clock. There are two meanings. One, that you will be drinking until the 9 AM news. And that if you drink with him and wake up the next day, the 9 PM news is on. Those two. You gotta be careful.

Kim Changwan

The story got twisted. The original meaning was that, you know, we usually gather for drinks after work around 6 or 7. So when you finish drinking and go home, you can catch the 9 pm news. That’s why we call it 9 o’clock news drinking. Really!

DJ Soulscape

Oh, so not the next day?

Kim Changwan

You don’t really know with just one drink. After two drinks you automatically say, “Come on, let’s go home.” Because everything is so tedious and you are getting drunk. So three drinks are a set. After the third, you are already home. Really. Everything is unappealing so you go home and watch the 9 o’clock news and you sleep.

DJ Soulscape

I think the boss is losing patience so we will move on now. He insisted that I avoid the topic of drinking but it happened. We will now listen to the first half of a Changwan song from ’84. It’s something I play often. Let’s listen til the first verse.

(music: Hunyee – “I Don't Want My Sorrow To Be Seen”)

While listening to this I really jumped. When I play this at a club, everyone loves it. By the way, you asked her to scream like that, right?

Kim Changwan

Of course I did. I did. but I didn’t know she would do it so not musically like that.

DJ Soulscape

But it was you who OK’d it.

Kim Changwan

Yes, that.

DJ Soulscape

Yes, because now we kind of joke about it but for me this scream is all I remember about the Korean music from 1984. Because there was no song with a scream like this before and after too. Well, there might be someone like Yunjeong from Pippi Band, but something like that didn’t exist before. Not just the part with the scream but there is a motorcycle sound mixed into it. It’s very different. Or how the synth riff comes on with guitar. People who are listening to this now will have much to discuss about because this is a special tune where synthwave, that is a fusion of synthesizer and new wave is mixed into post-punk. So from what I can tell, it wasn’t made with a certain genre in mind but really just a lot of, “Let’s use this here. Let’s put this sound there.”

Kim Changwan

If it weren’t would we do that?

DJ Soulscape

I’m curious. I notice from music back then that there are these kinds of notable sounds that catch my ear. There are a few in the song I’m about to play too. When people think of Sanullim’s music, they think it’s acoustic guitar music. But I disagree completely. You always use these odd sounds that no one else would use. Things that make you go, “You are using this sound?” There were many of those in 1984, ’85.

Kim Changwan

This was around ’84, ’85. There is something called musique concrète. I was completely filled with the desire to do music with those things instead of using instruments. At the time, I made some music by myself but I lost the tape. [plays bass riff] I can only remember this riff.

I remember collecting various ambient sounds around us, like the noise of the Cheonggyecheon and combining them to make music. Even when I was producing Hyunhee’s album I wanted to do them personally. But there was no way. I wanted to add that kind of noise in the end little by little.

DJ Soulscape

The more I listened the more I discovered subtleties. Like the engine noise and effects like that. This is what you call musique concrète. It’s a type of sampling.

Kim Changwan

Yes. These days these musical inspirations are concretely expressed and there is equipment that makes it possible. Back then there was nothing. It was a long time before digital. So all the ideas would be only in our minds and it would be difficult to manifest them. I’m sure even back then the people who were doing contemporary music or studying it had tried many different things. But there was no opportunity for regular people to see such performance. So I tried to come up with something using my imagination in that studio.

DJ Soulscape

That’s what I’m discovering a lot these days. I don’t know if you remember but in the 1989 film, Happiness Does Not Come In Grades, there was this soundtrack. I’m not sure if you guys know, but I played this song on a radio somewhere in Europe. It wasn’t a song but just beats. Here. Listen. It’s about a minute long insert in the movie.

(music: Interlude from Happiness Does Not Come In Grades OST)

I have heard traces of techniques similar to yours in many places. Like here, the vocal sample is lowered in pitch or where you have added things in an off-rhythm layer. This stuff is not only found in this piece but in many different musical projects you worked on. I found quite a bit of them.

So this might be a bit of a guided question but I wanted to ask, back then there existed the concept of this kind of sampling and there were attempts to make music using un-musical sounds but in Korea those probably weren’t accepted as serious music? So when we look at films or this kind of work there is quite a bit of that but like you said earlier, we don’t have tapes or records anymore. It’s a shame. I feel that it would’ve been great to have those.

Kim Changwan

You are right. We lost the tape. I don’t know what happened to it. This was something only I liked and something only I wanted to do. So it wasn’t a big deal. It’s good to hear it again. But back then it was something I just enjoyed alone. What was that again? The beat.

DJ Soulscape

Yes, off-beat. Two of them. Like they are being played separately.

Kim Changwan

I worked on that a lot without others knowing. That is randomly collecting sound and creating a loop using a tape. I made a loop with a tape and then played it backwards. Then you have a new beat. In whatever way. When you play music in a car and you go over a bridge, no matter what music it is, it will synchronize with the curve of the bridge. If it’s a quick song it fits with the changing scenery on the bridge. Whatever beat it is, it will fit. That’s what I experienced. If you listen to a slow song, as you drive, the music fits in with the beat of the bridge.

So I thought that the beat is not something that’s created first but it can also occur later. Imagine we are sketching a nude drawing of a woman. We can draw lines along her outline but we can also draw by filling in the background. Same with the beats. Many people have a tendency to add on to the existing beats but we can also discover music from naturally occurring beats. We can make this kind of reversed effort. I had the desire to make music without a central element but what I ended up making was “Motorcycle Guitar Ride.” People were saying, “What kind of lyric is that?” There is a reason to why I wanted to make a song like that at the beginning. I would sing a song that starts like, [strums guitar] “There is a sadness…” Then the audience would listen. But I didn’t want to do that and wrote a song in reverse [strums guitar]. I wouldn’t tell them what kind of song it is [strums guitar]. It doesn’t announce itself as a type. It’s not the kind where I start and the audience would get it. What I’m saying is that I wanted to make music that’s not mine but the audience’s. If the song was logical, the audience would just follow my reasoning. So I got rid of logic. Let’s have the audience fill in the logic. Kind of like the AI today. So if I throw clues at the audience, they can make it theirs. So we ride the motorcycle using a guitar. I don’t know how we can ride a motorcycle using a guitar. But some people will fill in with their imagination. “Oh, this is that.” And, “Oh, how does that singer know that I broke up with a guitarist?” I mean if a woman came to the concert after a breakup, she might think that. I mean, have it as you will but I will not give you clues. So I wanted to avoid making a clear association. I only picked things that didn’t have any association with each other and connected them. That was my intention but I still ended up delivering a single message. It wasn’t supposed to be a uniform message. The message was, “This song is absurd. What kind of song is that?” So that’s how everyone took it.

Nowadays when the song comes on people just think that it’s about playing the train game. They just take it as a dance tune.

DJ Soulscape

But before that too, now that you mention it, I think there were many lyrical attempts like that. Especially the song, “If I Confess, You’ll Be Totally Surprised.” The song’s lyrics are all about the moment. Nothing more or less. It departs from reasoning and sings, “If I confess now you will be surprised. Your eyes will widen. It will be round.” That’s all of it.

So I think this was groundbreaking even compared to Sanullim’s previous lyrics. Also sound-wise too. Hold on, let’s listen to the beginning of the song and we’ll talk.

(music: Sanullim – “If I Confess, You'll Be Totally Surprised”)

Kim Changwan

Back then when I sing a song like that, “If I Confess, You’ll Be Totally Surprised,” I was thinking about minimalism mostly. I thought, “I want to sing about shoelaces.” I want to sing about something very simple and just capture a moment. So after that song I repeated minimalism with “Hat and Spaghetti.” That song is just this [strums melody on guitar]. It starts with a drum and a stick. That’s the whole instrument part [strums melody on guitar]. The theme was “I want to see you.” That’s all of it. I wondered how I can express that single desire really strongly. There was a drumstick and you know, the sound of hitting the rim. I wanted to deliver a simple and clear message like that sound. So that’s where that music came from.

DJ Soulscape

Is there an event that made you pursue this tendency? I can see that clearly from ’85, ’86 and onward, especially the music we listened to, we can hear you trying to get a really minimal sound production using computer programs.

Kim Changwan

It was a criticism of rock music. I was imagining that rock music could express anything. But globally rock music was in a decline. I love rock and rock is good but I wondered, “What is something that rock can’t deliver?” I thought maybe I was thinking too fancy and rhetorical. I had to lose the rhetorical aspects of rock. So I started work on having that kind of sound and motifs. I wanted to depict a very simple thing. Not something epic or something with a historical rock narrative but an almost obvious truth.

In the second album it’s obvious that I wanted to see the raindrops dripping off the awning. If my previous idea of rock was the desire to form a whole garden, through “If I Confess, You’ll Be Totally Surprised” and “Hat and Spaghetti” I wanted to show how now my desire was to watch just one single droplet off an awning. I wanted to show the beauty of that. So I made those musical attempts.

DJ Soulscape

Because of that I think this is very much in line with very Korean, short narratives used in electronic music. A capturing of a moment. I don’t know if it makes sense but for example, it’s like the early krautrock or Kraftwerk and how they changed the themes of music. Before, the songs would contain a consistent narrative of one’s emotions but now I think it’s a huge change in terms of music. So I wanted to ask you that. At the time these kinds of things weren’t really available in other places. So were there other fellow musicians who were making music with these tendencies?

Kim Changwan

No. I was always lonely. There was no one like Min Jun around me [laughs].

DJ Soulscape

Also one person we can’t forget is Mr. Yeon Seokwon. He is the only person who helped you with the production.

Kim Changwan

Mr. Yeon Seokwon. Yes, that’s right.

DJ Soulscape

I want to hear about that time. I remember bringing the Sanullim Space Sound Disco album to you. Oh by the way, I don’t know if you guys know but the album cover was hand drawn by Changwan [holds cover up]. Like the early works, I only learned that after asking him.

Kim Changwan

This album art took 20, 30 days to do. I went over and drew one butterfly a day. Everyday. I don’t know how many there are total.

DJ Soulscape

So was it normal for you to draw the album cover yourself?

Kim Changwan

It became like that. I still draw whenever I get a chance.

DJ Soulscape

In a way, this is a remix album. This track, “Likely Late Summer,” was remixed by Yeon Seokwon with an interesting sound. I was personally curious how you came to record this album?

Kim Changwan

This wasn’t something I wanted to do. This is the first thing Seokwon did after returning from his schooling in the US. Back then Seok Won had a lot of interest in stuff like synth-pop so the album was an attempt within that context. We were wondering what it would be like to dress our music up differently. Like an American sound. So we just tried it. I actually have a natural dislike of disco beats and things like that.

DJ Soulscape

Despite that there is... Before we started talking today I played the song, “Don’t Go.” I first started playing that song about 10 something years ago. But now they are playing it on foreign radio channels. I don’t know if you know this about the song.

(music: Sanullim – “Don't Go (86 version)”)

Kim Changwan

Yes, this is a song that I want to revive.

DJ Soulscape

Yes. It would be great if you can put it in your show repertoire.

Kim Changwan

I don’t know. That vocal track is charming. I don’t know if we can get a vocal like that. And now… [singing begins, Kim covers his ears]

DJ Soulscape

I picked the song but now that I listen to it, the vocal is very sexy.

Kim Changwan

I’m suffering here [laughs].

DJ Soulscape

I think music like this is in a way a re-discovery. Sanullim with a groove. Sanullim with beats. They are not very known. The reason I asked so persistently is because I think your methodology, where you approach your interest in beats and musique concrète with minimalism, and the problems that the pioneers of techno, house and electronic musicians faced both come from the same place.

Kim Changwan

Yes, they are probably similar. To me this minimal and electronic sound was a rebellion against my rock music so it’s one of the faces of change.

DJ Soulscape

So that theme is something I really wanted to bring out to discuss. In Korea, especially with electronic music, there was no opportunity to be exposed to that but similar ideas were being born here. That’s a very important topic for us. Acknowledging that there was a rebellion against the patterns, the narratives of rock music and the formulaic Korean songs is very important in understanding Sanullim’s music for our generation.

Kim Changwan

Yes, you are right. I’m really surprised how you caught the subtext just by listening to the music.

DJ Soulscape

Probably because we are DJs. On top of the already known songs by Sanullim we hear other things. Like the one-minute long film insert, a short device. We hear that and we think, “Oh, I heard this technique somewhere else.” Someone will catch that and contextualize it. This is one of the biggest reasons why we are gathered here today. We are local musicians who are active in Korea and in Seoul. We have the Internet and we can access various media and all kinds of musical information. So we wonder what it is like when music is formed spontaneously without outside influence. When I look at your past interviews, the kind of pop music that you liked is nothing special. They are almost obvious. It’s not that you listened to anything special. You just listened to something we got on AFKN or the foreign stuff that everyone liked. But what kind of music you emulated is not the point. I would like to ask one more question. You have done a lot of different things, from the early days you have done TV commercials, acting, you have written books not just confined to topics of music. You have done a really wide range of activities. I’m curious how that might have influenced your music?

Kim Changwan

Well, let’s see… A few of my friends even call me a renaissance man I don’t know. Maybe I have the blood of a nomad. I heard that nomads consider it a shame to stop in the same spot twice. I don’t know how long I will keep leaving from my spot and from myself like a nomad. I don’t know that myself but I’m trying not to always stay in the same spot. I think I’ve blabbed on and on.

DJ Soulscape

We have a guitar. So maybe we can start taking some questions. If anyone has a question, don’t be shy and tell us. Yes. It would be good to have another microphone.

Audience Member

Hello. While you were talking about musique concrète, you said you went around collecting sound. Back then there probably wasn’t a field recorder in Korea. Was there something special you would bring to collect sound?

Kim Changwan

Oh, I just brought something like a cassette tape.

Audience Member

Really?

Kim Changwan

Yes.

Audience Member

So you just connected a microphone to a cassette tape?

Kim Changwan

Yes.

Audience Member

Oh, so you just took the recorded sound and edited them to make music?

Kim Changwan

That’s right. Back then one thing I treasured was the Altec Lansing eight-track mixer. It’s considered a legendary piece of equipment nowadays. It’s black and about this size. Maybe bigger. That and the TEAC eight-channel multi recorder. I did a lot of work with those. It was quarter inch.

DJ Soulscape

Do you mean the quarter inch reel tape?

Kim Changwan

Yes

DJ Soulscape

Now it reminds me. Where a lot of those experimental works you did found? There are a lot of in the TV and films you’ve worked on.

Kim Changwan

Yes, a few.

DJ Soulscape

Yes. It would be great to find more I think.

Audience Member

When you use sounds like that, do you use them thinking, “This sound will be received by the listeners like this?” Or do you just spontaneously decide in that moment as they would fit in the song and its structure?

Kim Changwan

It’s not written with staffs but instead I pen it like a drawing. And if you do arranging I’m sure you do this, I use my own symbols to do the work. Of course, when I’m creating beats I sometimes rely on coincidences too. And there are intended parts too.

Audience Member

When you are actually working, what is the ratio between the spontaneous and the non-spontaneous parts?

Kim Changwan

I don’t know. There isn’t that much, so I relied on coincidence. I edited a tape one time. I took the recording of a dog singing. I calculated how to do the measures with the dog sound and then I calculated what the pitch would be and then made all the notes. I took the tape and converted the distance between notes to the physical length on the tape. I cut them and put them together and made music using the analog method. So stuff like that cannot be done unless you intend it and design it.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Audience Member

It’s really an honor to meet you. While listening to your talk I have felt that there was a lot of effort to fight against the world. I felt that in your music. You have expressed it. I’m curious whether you still feel that way?

Kim Changwan

Yes, of course. But you described it as fighting against the world but really the biggest and constant motivation for me is the sense of wonder. When you feel moved. This miraculous place, this miraculous life, this discomfort. Back then when I was producing one thing I kept saying to my juniors was, “Even when it’s a terrible environment, it’s still an environment.” Right now. There is a sky. There is me. I am looking at the sky. As a habit, we take much of it for granted. It’s a given. But there is nothing that is a given. In a way, everything is for a moment. Each moment to moment, they are all miracles. I’m moved by these moments the same now as I was back then.

Only thing I regret is that I left the room I used to be in musically. I mentioned this earlier. I want to go back to the room but maybe I forgot. I can’t imagine the room these days. So I don’t have the right key for the room. “Is this the right key? How about this one?” None of them will open it. So recently, I gave up on trying to return to the room and finding out what the rock spirit of Sanullim was and I decided to go on a journey. So I keep making new songs. Here is a notebook. I sing the Sanullim songs in the book again at home by myself. Then I’m reminded of the nuances and how I wrote these songs but again it doesn’t open the doors. After a while of singing, if feels like I’m listening to a radio. It sounds like songs that I used to listen to I’m no longer the person who wrote them but I’m singing it as if it was a song I heard from somewhere. So I’m now a guest. My songs have become something apart from me. It’s like the lost city of Atlantis to me. It’s like that.

Audience Member

Thank you. I had a few questions but you answered them all in one go.

Kim Changwan

Thank you. I was asked whether I’m still writing songs so maybe some of you have heard this recent stuff. [plays the guitar and sings / applause]

Everyone thinks about time sooner or later but actually thinking about time itself might be a huge delusion. Same with songs, just considering and approaching a subject. It’s a big task. But we think that we are getting closer to the answer regarding time or thoughts or even ourselves. But I think you would understand if you have driven on a highway tired before. There is that moment when you wake up while driving. You jump in surprise. Realizing how far we are from ourselves is like that moment. We often think that we are in touch with ourselves but surprisingly there is a huge gap. There is no bigger and more foolish delusion than thinking about and discussing time like it’s an object that runs. Time rules over all of us and everything. Even now as I say that as I am putting these words together in my head, time is controlling us. But we delude ourselves thinking about time as something we can objectively perceive.

If we expand a bit, space is the same. To experience the space is to pass through a great deal of time. But our senses might be too dull to feel that. Our senses are not sharp enough to allow it. Although there are expressions like, “Music is an art form of time,” that’s only a small part of music. Everything is narrow and everything is concealed. What you need to discover is “what?” That’s it. That, itself. That is letting go of myself and leaving behind the self-image, my sense of aesthetic. Escaping from all that. It’s that kind of attempt. But that is also surprisingly very pleasant. We earlier used the word, fight. That’s how we expressed it. It’s a great struggle too. A titanic struggle. But it’s a great joy too. It’s not an easy task differentiating those. Do you understand? OK.

DJ Soulscape

Anyone else with a question? Yes. Anything. Normal stuff is fine.

Kim Changwan

Lack of question is also an answer.

Audience Member

I’m sorry to ask so many questions. Like the song you just sang and the songs you released as Sanullim, you sing many notes like you are just speaking them. I’m curious what meaning or opinion you have on words you speak in terms of music.

Kim Changwan

What are words in music? Actually, Sanullim really has no musical base and has no reference. I heard young people say that. References come from musical knowledge. How could we have any references when we were completely ignorant? So if you ask what the music of Sanullim is, I really have nothing to say. So I always used to say that Sanullim is more literature than music.

There were many people who commented on our lyrics saying that they were fresh and were new attempts. In truth, that helped bring non-musical elements into the realm of music. So in our perspective, we don’t really want to label it. [strums guitar] One of our songs that encapsulates this well is “If You Hit E-Major.” This song seems very musical but also seems literary but it’s really neither. Very unconstrained. It’s also intended to avoid labelling. I think it contains these ideas well. But even that word, “contains,” is too, really, a bit extreme. It might be more fitting to say that the song doesn’t contain.

DJ Soulscape

It’s got a frame if it contains.

Kim Changwan

That’s right.

DJ Soulscape

What do you think of the musical trait? For example, genre, style, stuff like that. There are many people who do genre-based music. For example, people who like a certain style or form of music.

Kim Changwan

There is that. Once you have a genre, it can be intoxicating. Once a genre is formed it’s like a hypnosis. If you are infatuated with country music, there is something hypnotic with that. Also other genres like blues can be hypnotic. You can really indulge in that. There is the same with metal. In that sense, it’s a personal choice. I sometimes get the temptation to be hypnotized as well. But every time I get close to falling in I get an urge to leave. So I leave and I leave.

Audience Member

Do you consciously try to get away from those temptations or is there something that pulls you away from it?

Kim Changwan

Every time I get that idea, I am reminded of an episode. Did I see it in a movie? A girl in puberty rebels against her father. He says, “Why are you wearing those clothes?” She replies, “What? I do it because I like it.” She talked back like that. So the father says to his daughter, “You are obsessing over that.” He scolds her. “You are obsessing over that.” But I don’t want to obsess over things like music. Once you obsess or fall in love, things become more difficult. Maybe I’m afraid of that. But there are times when I want to fall in. Sometimes I wanna lose myself completely in metal.

Yes, hello. Nice to meet you.

Audience Member

Yes, nice to meet you. I want to ask you a question about the Sanullim song, “A Flower Blooming in the Mist.” I was wondering, that song, is so beautiful and the lyric is so simple, about nature, it’s almost like a fantasy scene about nature. So just wondering when you wrote that song, was it a fantasy about nature or about an experience in nature? And how important do you think nature, forests, mountains, is to musicians, even electronic musicians or band musicians, in your experience?

Kim Changwan

The environment isn’t important. I don’t have to have any natural environment. I don’t think. You can make it in a small room, it’s enough. All I need is my breath and sunlight. It’s enough. We don’t need big mountain or beautiful river. I don’t think so. OK? Just you and me, one beautiful girl, OK! That’s enough. Small mixer, microphone. That’s all. You can make any, “A Flower Blooming in the Mist.”

Audience Member

So do you mean like, is this lyric almost symbolic? Not exactly about nature but about the feeling of a natural situation in life?

Kim Changwan

No. Symbolic. I don’t like to travel. I hate the journey. I don’t want to go overseas.

Audience Member

How about to the countryside?

Kim Changwan

The countryside smells. I don’t like it. [laughter] When I go on a tour? I never leave my hotel room. I keep the doors and curtains closed. I just sleep.

DJ Soulscape

But you walk around searching for Korean cold noodles.

Kim Changwan

Oh, I go looking for Korean cold noodles. [laughter]

DJ Soulscape

Yes, anyway. We have a cool city guy, Mr. Kim Changwan today. Thank you for your questions. Is there anyone else?

Kim Changwan

I don’t really want to go there but I think I can write songs even in jail. Maybe I will write better songs. But please don’t send me there. [laughter]

DJ Soulscape

Yes, we have been speaking with the eternal traveler Kim Changwan. How do you feel?

Kim Changwan

I will sing a song praising life. It’s a song praising life but it’s not an upbeat song. Listen. [plays the guitar and sings / applause]

DJ Soulscape

Thank you. I have asked you, kind of jokingly, to come and just sing us just one song. And to have you actually come and sing, it’s an honor but I feel bad too. It feels like it’s bad manners to just get you to come here and sing. Anyway. Apart from wanting to bring you here today, I was worried. I didn’t want to present you and Sanullim like an artifact in a museum. I’m one of the people who knows you best and I’m a huge fan. I wanted to bring these young 20-, 30-something producers and musicians and have them meet someone with an even more expansive, open and unconstrained outlook. So that they could learn about the nomadic spirit. That’s why I brought you here. I didn’t want to discuss your hit tracks and your band’s history. There were some hard questions too. You have given us a lot of great answers and it’s been great. Did you guys have a great time?

Kim Changwan

Thank you.

DJ Soulscape

Also, next time, if we do the 9 o’clock drinking, it’d be great to see all of you there. [laughter] Personally, what I very much want to pursue for the next five or 10 years is to re-discover the music of Sanullim and Kim Changwan through remix projects with Korean producers and musicians associated with Red Bull and RBMA. To do that I have invited Changwan and laid the groundwork. I also asked him to share his ideas on electronic music and musical concepts that overlaps with the kind of music we do so we can discuss that. I’m very thankful. Let’s give a round of applause for Mr. Kim Changwan. [applause]

Kim Changwan

Thank you everyone. When I was around 15, I went to the Joongang Middle and High School that was in Gahoe-dong. That’s First Gye-dong. From there to city hall I walked after school. I was a sophomore in middle school. As I walked I ran into adults. It was during daytime. I walked and asked every adult I ran into, whoever was walking by, I asked, “Why do you live? Sir, Why do you live?” I kept asking the same question. “Why do you live?” “Excuse me, why do you live?” They all said, “You will know when you grow up,” or, “Why don’t you just go back to studying?” Those were all the answers I got. After that about 20 years later when I became an adult I suddenly remembered that day. I was in my mid 30s. How should I answer that? If a kid like that asked me, I want to give an answer. But it looked like I would answer the same. “Stop thinking useless thoughts and just focus on studying.” I was ashamed of growing up to be like this. So what’s the answer? I really couldn’t find the answer. How should I answer that kid? Then I found an exit. I needed to run away from the kid. If there is a kid like that, best to run. How will I run away? “Life isn’t an opportunity to get answers but it’s an opportunity to ask questions.” That was my exit. So I thought, “That’s what I would say if a kid asks.” But I still haven’t met a kid who asked me that question. But those words are still valid for me. I constantly ask myself, “Why do you live?” To myself. And I try to give an answer but I’m only filled with questions. I really don’t have any answers. And a question that I kept inside from many years ago is, “Why is green, green?” Why is green, green? Why green? Is it the chlorophyll? Why is green, green? I still couldn’t find the answer. I might not find it until I die. Why is green, green? Green. Why is it? Recently I’m thinking, maybe everything is ultimately humanities. Again, even that question is too hard so I cut it down and down and down and down and then it goes to, “Why does everyone look like this? Why do things sound like this?” So the questions are condensed down to that recently. I don’t know yet. I hope you help me find it together. [applause]