Larry Gold

Jeff Mao

Our guest today is a musician, studio owner, producer and, of course, a great string arranger. Won’t you please welcome Mr. Larry Gold?

[applause]

Thanks so much for being here.

Larry Gold

It’s great.

Jeff Mao

This was kind of impromptu, you with the cello, here this morning. This is kinda what you do every morning, though. Right?

Larry Gold

I do. I play all day when I’m not working on someone’s arrangement. Music is my daily bread.

Jeff Mao

How many hours a day do you practice?

Larry Gold

I’d say, minimally two, but maybe eight at times. There was a period of about 20, 25 years when I didn’t play my cello. I used to play on records, obviously, and I kept myself in great shape. But then when I opened The Studio, which I think is about 25 years ago, and I started doing arranging, a couple of arrangements every week, I really didn’t have the time to devote to the cello. So every time I went to play it, I felt like I was a stranger to it. That feeling made me pretty depressed. So I sort of put it aside for a while.

I mean, I would pick it up. I picked it up, I told you before, when The Roots entered my life, for a while. I went up and I would take it out every once in a while, because they would like me to take it out. So I mean, I did some live performing on occasion.

Jeff Mao

Right, right.

Larry Gold

With Jay-Z.

Jeff Mao

Right, exactly. We’ll get to some of these things, these notable events in your career. I wanted to start, actually, with a piece of music that we talked about a little bit. Now, this is an arrangement of yours for an artist named Jill Scott. And...

Larry Gold

This record was completely done at my studio.

Jeff Mao

In your studio.

Larry Gold

Yeah.

Jeff Mao

OK. The 2011 record that we’re about to play?

Larry Gold

Yes, yes.

Jeff Mao

OK. So just to sort of reset, even though we have Larry playing a little bit this morning, let’s hear something that he arranged for Jill Scott. The track is called “Hear My Call.” It’s from 2011. And let’s give it a listen.

(music: Jill Scott – “Hear My Call” / applause)

Jeff Mao

That was Jill Scott, “Hear My Call,” 2011, produced by JR Hutson and string arrangements by Larry Gold. We wanted to play this song because the elements are so sparse. It’s really just piano, voice and the strings. And as an example of what you do, I guess, tell us about your approach to a piece like this.

Larry Gold

Well, strings are emotional. And this was a very emotional song, and I thought it was a good way to start. I love Jill. All I can tell you is that the song still moves me, to this day. And I’ve heard it a lot in my lifetime. It’s something I actually... I like it. Ask me a question about it, and I can maybe better answer it.

You know, I do everything by feeling, more than by rote. And Jill was in the studio recording, and I have a little room off to the side. And I was working on the arrangement, and she would knock on the door and say, “How’s it going?” And I’d say, “It’s goin’,” and I wouldn’t play it for her. And then I finally played it for her and she was crying. And I said, “Well, let’s do it.” And that was the end of it. And then she performed it a lot. One time, she asked me to fly to California to conduct and I said, “You don’t need a conductor. It’s only a string quartet.” She said, “I want you to fly,” and I don’t like flying, even though I flew to Germany, for this. And so I didn’t fly. And I don’t remember where – it was for some big event out in California, but she’s used it... On a lot of occasions, she’s used it when she wants to be more intimate.

Jeff Mao

Yeah. This song is such an expression of vulnerability. When you get a client, obviously this is an artist that you worked closely with for a number of years, so it’s a different type of relationship.

Larry Gold

Oh, I’ve known Jill since she was in high school.

Jeff Mao

Yeah.

Larry Gold

She grew up in Philadelphia. One of the things about me being in Philadelphia is that a lot of the artists that you’re gonna play today all grew up in Philadelphia. So we were sort of a homegrown unit of musicians.

Jeff Mao

You said it’s all sort of by feel, but when you’re writing the arrangement, something like this, you notice just as a neophyte, as a lay person, who doesn’t study music necessarily formally, you hear just the strings follow the cadence of her singing at different points, whatever countermelodies that you’re sort of exploring. I guess, does that apply in this type of situation, or is it really just something that’s more instinctive?

Larry Gold

This was more instinctive. I just wanted to add an emotional context to the song, and this was an easy song to do, even though it took me a minute to come to terms with it. I don’t like doing too much, because I think too much takes... You can go hear a symphony, or go listen to the cello or something. And it’s a pop record, really. So I don’t know, I just think the mood is good.

Jeff Mao

Where in Philly did you grow up?

Larry Gold

I grew up in a neighborhood that was pretty poor. It’s called North Philadelphia. Same neighborhood Jill grew up. The same neighborhood McFadden & Whitehead grew up. The same neighborhood Teddy Pendergrass grew up. A lot of musicians, a lot of singers. My father had a store, we lived up top of the store. In the back of the store, I used to play my cello all day long.

Jeff Mao

At what age did you start on the cello?

Larry Gold

Six. I started guitar, first. There was a toy guitar in my father’s store. And I brought it in the back, I learned how to tune it. It was actually an Elvis Presley guitar, which I should’ve kept, because it’s worth a lot of money today. It was one of those little toy plastic guitars. And it came with a pitch [tuning] fork and it came with a little color instruction book, “How to Tune the Guitar.” And it actually had ... What? It had a couple of songs in the back, and I taught myself how to play a few Elvis songs.

And my mother took me to guitar lessons. Two blocks away or three blocks away there was a little music store, in the early ‘50s. And the guitar teacher, after going through a few books with me, said, “You gotta get him a violin. He’s got hands. He’s got fingers. He’s got ears.”

Jeff Mao

Yeah.

Larry Gold

So my mother went to school, and I was too young, really, to get an instrument, but they took me in this room and I’m small, I’m petite. I’m not a big –

Jeff Mao

Petite’s a good word, yeah.

Larry Gold

OK. I’m not a big man. So if they would’ve had a bass in that room, I would’ve taken the bass, but the biggest string instrument they had in that room was the cello. So I came home, the cello was bigger than I was at the time. And that’s all.

Jeff Mao

And you stuck with this, and eventually were classically trained. You got into a pretty prestigious music school. Correct?

Larry Gold

I went to conservatory, yeah.

Jeff Mao

Right. Which one was that?

Larry Gold

Curtis [Institute of Music]. There’s a great music school in Philadelphia. And I got in very young. I started studying with the cello teacher there, and I started studying with the counterpoint teacher there. And I was accepted, I think I was around 13 years old. I sort of stopped going to high school. I don’t recommend it, but –

Jeff Mao

I think some people in this room are already past that point, so you’re in good company, actually.

Larry Gold

Yeah, I know. But I don’t recommend stopping learning, that’s what I mean.

Jeff Mao

But in terms of actually stopping school, why did you quit school?

Larry Gold

Because I fell in love with music, and I knew music was going to be my life, and I always liked to read, anyway. And I figured I knew enough math. I was a little big shot. I don’t know what to tell you. You know? And I started playing. So I was playing around town, just like I played here, and somebody asked for my phone number. And the somebody that asked for my phone number was the contractor who contracted all the musicians in Philadelphia for the records. And in the early ‘60s in Philadelphia, there were some big records being made. There was Cameo and Parkway, and as you told me... What is it?

Jeff Mao

Arctic, yeah.

Larry Gold

Arctic and there were a few other record labels that I’m not gonna remember the name, per se. But I started playing on records. And I fell in love with the process of making records.

Jeff Mao

Right.

Larry Gold

And singing and all that kind of stuff.

Jeff Mao

So you were already in love with pop music, though.

Larry Gold

Completely. I told you, I’d learned Elvis Presley songs when I was six years old, so yeah, I was very fond. My mother used to say that with the guitar and me singing, I could’ve earned a living at any bar in that neighborhood. Just going to play, and people would’ve thrown money at me.

Jeff Mao

And what was the name of the contractor who picked you out of the crowd?

Larry Gold

His name was Don Renaldo. You don’t see credits much on records anymore, but if you go back to the ‘60s and the ‘70s, on the back of every record out of Philadelphia, it said Don Renaldo, strings and horns.

Jeff Mao

Yeah.

Larry Gold

And I was part of that strings and horns. And that strings and horns eventually became a group called MFSB.

Jeff Mao

How many pieces are composed in that string section back then?

Larry Gold

Six violins, two violas, two cellos. And then a full complement of horns, too.

Jeff Mao

And what kind of musicians were converging to work together on...

Larry Gold

All different kinds. Some of them were conservatory trained, some were jazz players. It was a combination of people. Most of them were formally trained classically, though.

Jeff Mao

On the string side, you mean?

Larry Gold

On the string side.

Jeff Mao

And then on the other side was mostly jazz players?

Larry Gold

They were formally trained. Everybody’s formally trained a little bit, but yeah, they were all jazz players.

Jeff Mao

Yeah. I know you’ve said before that you kind of learned pop music from an African American perspective, because you’re working on black music, essentially.

Larry Gold

Philadelphia’s a black town. They didn’t make white records. They did, Cameo and Parkway made some records.

Jeff Mao

A little bit though, right? Yeah.

Larry Gold

Yes, they did. But I wasn’t included. That was Bobby Rydell and people like that. I never cared for that end of it. I think my mother grew up listening to things that I never really identified with. A little bit I did, but not that much. I identified much more with the early records that I was listening to. I mean, like I told you, Stax/Volt, and the Motown records I loved. Then the opportunity in Philadelphia was for me to participate on these R&B records. So I got into it. I learned. They taught me gospel music. They taught me everything.

Jeff Mao

So this is black and white musicians. You told me that there was a union for the black musicians and one separate for the white musicians. Correct?

Larry Gold

In the early ‘60s, that’s correct. That’s how segregated life was in Philadelphia. It’s still too segregated, in a way, but there’s not a black and a white musician union anymore.

Jeff Mao

So you’re in the studio together with people from maybe a different neighborhood or that you haven’t necessarily encountered as a teenager. What else did you learn? Not just musically, but just from being around this crew of people?

Larry Gold

Well, they were less formal than my background was. And I liked that a lot. I learned how to smoke reefer with them. I mean, there were so many things that I learned that I can’t put in words. I just liked them. They liked me, and I liked them. They liked me for my knowledge, and I liked them for their knowledge.

Jeff Mao

When did you start to encounter producers like Kenneth Gamble and Leon Huff?

Larry Gold

I was probably a teenager. I would say [I was] maybe 16, 17 years old the first time I saw Leon Huff. He was in the record business early on. He did Phil Spector’s records. He played piano on all those great Phil Spector records out of New York, and the girl groups and all that. They used to have four piano players, three piano players in the room at one time. And Leon was one of the piano players. Leon played rhythm piano. Then there was somebody who played melodic and so ... But I met him then, and I met Bunny Sigler then. Bunny Sigler used to sing opera, so he considered himself like a crossover. He was classical as well as R&B. I mean, I got very involved. First of all, it was the way I made my living, too. It wasn’t as if I did it for nothing. Those early records... First of all, it was all cash. There was no checks. It was really sort of, not lawful, I guess is the best way to say it.

Jeff Mao

Off the books.

Larry Gold

Say again?

Jeff Mao

Off the books.

Larry Gold

Off the books, yeah.

Jeff Mao

Actually, there’s one group that you did form, which I actually am a little bit curious about, before you got fully immersed into the soul scene.

Larry Gold

Well, it was both. But I’m-

Jeff Mao

It was at the same time. Simultaneous.

Larry Gold

At the same time.

Jeff Mao

OK.

Larry Gold

I had a bar band before this group.

Jeff Mao

Right.

Larry Gold

And my bar band used to do covers. I played bass. Electric bass. And my bar band used to do covers, but we mostly did Sam & Dave and we did Percy Sledge. We did whatever we felt like doing, but we weren’t the only... We were in Philadelphia doing that, but I think there’s probably a band in every city in the ‘60s, in every city we would go to that were doing that.

Jeff Mao

Right. If we can show image number one on the screen over here. How did this group form? Good News.

Larry Gold

Oh, Michael Bacon, who still plays music, and I had been friends since we were 11 years old. Michael played the cello. And I met him, we were both cellists in an all-city orchestra. And we were friends for years and years and years. And I think, as I told you yesterday, and I’ll tell everybody here, I took way too many psychedelics. And I ended up not even knowing my name, which is not good. But this group was sort of like a healing process for me. I went away from my earlier friends and I did this. I didn’t write most of this stuff, but I played and I sang a little bit, and we went all over the world. We did the Isle of Wight Festival. It got very successful very quickly. We were signed at Columbia Records. I hated the record we made. I knew I didn’t know anything about making records when we were in the studio making that record. They gave us a producer and all he did was, he... Whatever we did live, we did in the studio. And I knew that wasn’t right. And I knew none of the songs would be hits, because they didn’t sound like the other records that were on the radio at the time.

Jeff Mao

Well, what style are we talking about?

Larry Gold

It was folk music, I would say. I would classify it as more... It was acoustic guitar and the cello. And I played bass, too. And we both sang, and that was it. And we made a lot of noise. I play a lot of cello, so I ate up a lot of space with the cello. And Michael had a good voice. Michael sounded a lot like James Taylor. To this day, he has a band with his brother Kevin Bacon, who’s world-famous, called the Bacon Brothers. And I don’t go hear them, because I don’t like ‘em. So I don’t know what to tell ya.

[audience laughter]

Jeff Mao

Sorry, Kevin. Yeah.

Larry Gold

Yeah. Sorry, Kevin. But if they were in the room, I’d say the same thing.

Jeff Mao

Yeah. I think it’s also interesting because you’re relatively young, and you’re getting this major record deal. As a young person, sort of dealing with... The music industry is different now, but that same experience might be something that people in this room encounter, in terms of being involved in something from a relatively early age that they’re not ready for. What do you think you can sort of impart as far as advice goes in dealing with a situation like that?

Larry Gold

Well, I never listened to anybody. Like I said before, I quit school early. I thought I was like a street kid, on my own in the ‘60s. And I’m not recommending that. This group had an agent, and a lawyer, had a manager, had all these people that told me what to do. It drove me crazy. And at the end of the week, if we made couple thousand dollars, I’d go home with $200 or whatever it was. I don’t even remember what it was. And I hated that. I hated that because it was just, I know they made a living. And to this day, I have a manager who got me this gig. So I mean, it’s part of reality.

Jeff Mao

I thought I got you this gig. [laughs]

Larry Gold

And a lot of times, when you’re little, you don’t think they know what they’re talking about. You’re like, “Oh, I know what I’m doing.” And especially if you were a hippie and involved in drugs, for sure, you didn’t listen to anybody. The hippies had an expression: Don’t trust anybody over 30. You know? So here I was, all of 16 to 17 years old, and all these... I had a manager who was probably in his 50s. It was not a good experience. I met Clive Davis and I met a lot of different people, a lot of different artists that I admired. My goal before this record... They kept on saying, “Oh, this is the next Simon & Garfunkel.” CBS signed us, “Oh, Columbia. Oh, this is the next ... “ So I said, “Oh, great. Well, why don’t you get Paul Simon to produce the record, then?” So we actually had a meeting with him, but he didn’t even produce his own records.

Jeff Mao

Well, the producers who made a profound impact on you after you left this group, as we mentioned, Kenneth Gamble, Leon Huff. If we could show image number two.

[picture appears on screen]

Larry Gold

Well, the thing was, I had already had a taste of what the Philly records were prior to this. So when I gave this up, I knew I could go back there. I called Don Renaldo. I said, “Look, could I play cello again in your group?” And he said, “Absolutely. Are you kidding?” So I started working right away. And I also knew that Gamble and Huff and Tommy Bell, these guys knew how to make records, man.

Jeff Mao

And that’s Thom Bell in the center, right there. Leon on the left and Kenneth on the right.

Larry Gold

That’s a great picture. That’s when we were kids.

Jeff Mao

So you’re going and doing sessions. Let’s play something, actually, that I believe you played on. It’ll sound really nice in this room. This is the O’Jays “Back Stabbers” from 1972.

Larry Gold

Leon Huff playing piano.

Jeff Mao

Leon Huff playing piano. You’re a part of the string section, arranged by Thom Bell. Produced by Gamble and Huff.

(music: The O’Jays – “Back Stabbers” / applause)

Larry Gold

That’s the mighty O’Jays. Let me tell ya, man. They’re still kickin’. I’m gonna do an album with them before the end of the year. Might be their last album. You don’t have a picture. Eddie Levert, he’s gotta be 78 years old, now. And Walter’s gotta be in that general [range]. I’m 70, and they’re eight to ten years older than I am.

Jeff Mao

Do you have a memory of...

Larry Gold

I have a memory of the song. Because the person who actually wrote the lyrics for that song was my good friend John Whitehead, who’s not with us anymore. And he told me that he was living in what we called government housing... You call government housing, maybe, but we called the projects, in Philadelphia. And he came home one day, and his wife, young wife, was outside talking to these two guys, and he went upstairs, and he got really mad. He went out... And they’d smile at him. And he went upstairs and he wrote, “They smile in my face all the time they wanna take your place, the back stabbers.” And he wasn’t working for Gamble and Huff at the time, but Gamble and Huff had a little office in those days. And he went in and he sang... This is the way he wrote a song. He would go, “They’re smilin’ in you ... “ He would come in and just sing the melody to you. And he sang the melody to Huff, and Huff started playing the piano, and it turned out to be a big hit. And it turned out to be a career-maker for my friends John and Gene. And that’s the story I have about that.

Jeff Mao

When you’re going to work everyday, you’re going to Sigma Sound Studios in Philly, right? And you are a part of these sessions. I mean, we could literally sit here for hours listening to different Philadelphia soul records that you were in on sessions for. Did you have an idea, at the time, that this was something really special?

Larry Gold

I knew that was a hit. If you know the history of Motown and the history of commercial black music, this sounds like a hit. And I would go in and sometimes I would get the chills. I would just sit there, and listening back to... Before we even put the strings or the horns on, I would just sit there and think about just how brilliant the vocals were, and how brilliant the rhythm was. I mean, that’s Norman Harris playing guitar, who’s no longer with us, who was my dear friend. I mean, these were great musicians.

Jeff Mao

What about the arrangement of Thom Bell? I mean, you can either use this as an example or...

Larry Gold

You know what? You can barely hear the strings.

Jeff Mao

Well, I think when you hear the strings, though, it’s this wave of something.

Larry Gold

Thom Bell was the... I used to say he was the black Burt Bacharach. He was the greatest young black arranger in the country at the time. And Atlantic Records knew it, as well as Columbia Records knew it. And they gave these guys carte blanche. In those days, these were street kids. They gave them whatever they wanted. They knew that they had something special in Philadelphia.

Jeff Mao

OK, so you mentioned Norman Harris.

Larry Gold

Ronnie Baker.

Jeff Mao

Ronnie Baker, Earl Young. These are some of the... Really the rhythm section, the backbone of a lot of these records.

Larry Gold

The backbone of these records. These guys came to work and enjoyed themselves. They smoked a reefer and they played on their song. That was what they did.

Jeff Mao

How many songs in a day would you typically do?

Larry Gold

As a rhythm section, I bet they did at least three, four. Tommy Bell would do even five or six a day. But it’d go a late day.

It was all based on what you heard the piano do. In Tommy Bell’s songs, he was the leader. He sat there and the guitar fit in and the bass fit in and the drums fit in. And they kept going and going and going; and Gamble would be in the booth and Gamble had the words, or whoever was the lyricist would... And the vocalists were never there. Very rarely were the vocalists... They were never cut in rhythm. The vocalists came in later, and they rehearsed them. And then the strings and horns came in last. And then it was mixed.

Jeff Mao

Right. So you got a chance to see it almost fully formed at that point when you guys came in with the strings?

Larry Gold

Yeah. When I heard the record, when they were putting up the mix for us to play, I heard the record. And it was always... I mean, sometimes it was shitty, but most of the time it was brilliant. I don’t know what to tell you.

Jeff Mao

What do you think you learned from some of the other arrangers you worked under? Because you referred to these guys, Thom Bell, Norman Harris –

Larry Gold

Ronnie Baker arranged.

Jeff Mao

Bobby Martin.

Larry Gold

Bobby Martin.

Jeff Mao

These are your mentors.

Larry Gold

Oh my, they are my mentors. Jack Faith. You can’t leave Jack Faith... Tommy Bell was the first one. As I told you yesterday, he came in one day and Gamble was hiring one arranger, and Tommy Bell said, “I bet Larry can do better than him.” And I never arranged for them. And Gamble said, “OK, well let’s give him a try.” And that’s how I met McFadden & Whitehead. Or at least, that’s how I started to work for McFadden & Whitehead. And that was that. It was that simple.

Jeff Mao

You mentioned MFSB...

Larry Gold

But it was all based on my being in Philadelphia at the right time. The right place with the right people, the right singers. This is what makes a hit record, you know? All of those elements fall together in one moment, and you get a record that lasts... This record is 45 years old that we just played.

Jeff Mao

Right.

Larry Gold

It’s amazing, guys.

Jeff Mao

Let’s show image number three. This is Larry in the studio back in the day with the string section.

[image appears on screen]

Larry Gold

Holy mackerel. There I am. This is unusual. They had three cellos and a bass. [points to the screen] But this was my good friend, Romeo DiStefano. He met me when I was 13 years old. And he would get me gigs and he would pick me up because I didn’t drive. He would say, “Oh yeah,” and just pick me up. I can’t say enough good things about some of these older people. You gotta understand, I was a great player, though. And I was a great musician, and they loved me. So I was like a lollipop that they showed off to people. You know what I mean?

Jeff Mao

Well, you were the young guy, too. Right?

Larry Gold

I was not only the young guy, but Renaldo used to say to them, “You could never play better than him in your whole life!” You know?

Jeff Mao

Now, MFSB, you mentioned, is this collective of musicians.

Larry Gold

Well, it was Mother, Father, Sisters, Brothers, which made it the family. But it was also Motherfuckin’ Son of a Bitch, which made it real Philly. So that was the deal. And it was a studio band, a studio orchestra. Philadelphia wasn’t the only orchestra like that. We talked before, there was a Chicago group, and there was a group in LA. And there was a group in New York. But yeah, we were a collective of musicians.

Jeff Mao

Let’s show image number four, actually, just so we have an idea of who’s around here. This is outside the Sigma...

[image appears on screen]

Larry Gold

I didn’t show up to that picture. I think I was a little too high.

Jeff Mao

Yeah, you missed the photo shoot day.

Larry Gold

That’s Don Renaldo in the front with the big smile on. And that’s Larry Washington, the great conga player, who leads off in that song. And that’s Bobby Martin behind Don Renaldo. And that’s Richie Jones back there in the afro. He just died this last week. Most of these people are not living anymore.

Jeff Mao

Now, was it frustrating at any point to be kind of in the background as a sort of faceless group of musicians?

Larry Gold

Yeah. It was very frustrating. That’s why I started arranging. I mean, we started with... I was already a big star before I ... Big star. Good News, I was doing real well. But I didn’t like it. And I wasn’t gonna put myself in a position where everyday I didn’t want to go out and play. And then traveling, if you’re a traveling musician, it’s the worst kind of life. Somehow, these young kids today, they love it. I don’t know what to tell you. I hated traveling.

Jeff Mao

Yeah. Well, we’re glad you made it here, at least.

Larry Gold

I made it here. That was an amazing event, that I made it here.

Jeff Mao

When you started arranging, it actually coincided with this so called disco backlash, which Gamble and Huff, the Philly sound, had become quite closely associated with, even though I think that’s also kind of a reductive way to talk about Gamble and Huff. They were much more than that.

Larry Gold

Much more than that.

Jeff Mao

But they were swept up in this.

Larry Gold

Big time.

Jeff Mao

What was it like to go through that?

Larry Gold

Well, I finally started arranging, and then all of a sudden, “disco sucks” came around. So the whole sound of Philadelphia got put on a back burner. There was a lot of bad disco music, just like there’s a lot of bad music around all the time. But it seemed like people blamed the Philly sound. And the Philly sound, as I told you, [was] my living. All of the sudden, I was making one tenth of what I was making. And I had started arranging and the arranging got put on the backburner for a while, and I was fortunate enough to end up... I met somebody from Sesame Street, and they found out who I was and they listened to me play.

Jeff Mao

The children’s show, Sesame Street.

Larry Gold

Children’s show. And I started writing songs for Sesame Street with a lot of the black artists that I grew up with in Philadelphia.

Jeff Mao

But that’s survival, you know? That’s survival. That’s working to survive.

Larry Gold

It was better than survival. I enjoyed it. As a matter of fact, I started doing it before the sound of Philly ended, because when I used to go to the studio, I would go in and Gamble would say, “What’d you write for Sesame Street?” Because he loved Sesame Street. And Tommy Bell said, “Can I get a job?” I said, “What do you want, asking me can you get a job?” They already knew that I was headed into working for children’s television at that time.

Jeff Mao

So what motivated you, some years later, to open your own studio in Philly?

Larry Gold

Well, you’re taking a big gap.

Jeff Mao

I am taking a big leap, because I need to condense a little bit.

Larry Gold

Gamble always had me working through the ‘80s. And as a matter of fact, in the ’80s, I bought a synclavier, which is a sampling... Like what you guys use, except it was one of the predecessors of what you use. And it actually had, back in 1983, it had two minutes worth of memory. And I could record a whole song in this box, background vocals, everything that I needed. And I actually started producing more those days. And mostly how I got into it was producing... In the ‘80s, there was a wave. The R&B wave ended up being a lot of teenage groups. New Edition was one of the most famous ones. But there are a lot of other... There was one in Philadelphia called the Whitehead Bros. And they were John Whitehead, my dear friend who wrote “Back Stabbers,” sons, and Gamble had me in the studio at night, working on an album with them, and they were 13 years old. And so I started working on an album with them, and eventually, that album never came out. But I was at Sigma, and I was actually... And I was learning how to engineer. I was learning other trades. I always had a little bit of knowledge, but I was not hands on, but I became hands on.

And the culmination of this story was, I did a lot of teenage R&B during that time, and it ended up with the Whitehead Bros. had a big hit record. I think you know the year better than I do. I’m not gonna remember the year, but I think it was almost 1990, or something like that. And from that point, from the Whitehead Bros., I started meeting... And a little bit before the Whitehead Bros., we got involved with Pop Art Records, which was one of the first early hip-hop labels in the United States. They had Fresh Prince & Jazzy Jeff. They had Salt-N-Pepa. I don’t even remember how many different acts they had.

Jeff Mao

Steady B, who was from Philly.

Larry Gold

Right.

Jeff Mao

Roxanne Shante.

Larry Gold

Roxanne Shante they had. Coolie C, who ended up in jail.

Jeff Mao

Cool C.

Larry Gold

And Steady B, too. Yeah, they had a lot of records. So I ended up helping Lawrence Goodman, who owned Pop Art. I didn’t produce those records, but I helped him with the music. Because he wasn’t making any money from the samples. He was giving that money away, back to the people who he borrowed from, the samples. So what he would do, as I told you yesterday, he’d come in and play us a record and say, “Can you make something that’s similar in feel?” And we did.

And it was a cash job. No names involved. And he would give us a G or whatever it was in those days, for the record. I got to meet all those young people, then.

And then after the Whitehead Bros. was a big hit, all those people entered my life again. Because I had a little studio. I moved from Sigma. Sigma almost went bankrupt. And I moved from Sigma to another studio and I had a little room there. And everyone just started showing up. I told you, Rodney Jerkins showed up and Jazzy Jeff, who’s Jeff. He’s not Jazzy. But Jeff showed up, and a lot of people showed up. The beginnings of a group called the Jazzyfatnastees showed up, which were one of the products that The Roots produced.

Jeff Mao

Right.

Larry Gold

By that time, let’s see. How old was I? I must’ve been in my ’30s, getting to be my late ’30s. And I felt like there was gonna be a renaissance of Philadelphia. And I knew it was gonna include some live... There was some live playing. Michael Jackson ruled the waves in the ’80s. His records, Quincy Jones was genius. And those records, they ruled the waves. But Jodeci was all live music. And some of these other records that were coming out, was a lot. There were guitar players and bass players and maybe drum machine. And I thought to myself, “Well, this is the way I was gonna make the Whitehead Bros. record.” That was first off. And including there was a song on the Whitehead Bros. record called “Beautiful Black Princess” that was just piano and voice, and I put strings on, and people loved it.

I didn’t like the studio, I didn’t like the owner of the studio that was there. And so I thought, “OK. I don’t have a lot of money, but whatever money I have, I’m gonna try to find a place and I’m gonna build a room that I wanna build, and it’s gonna be more of a hip-hop, R&B kind of a room.” The room was so loud, you could turn the volume up so much your ears could bleed, but the kids loved it. That was more important. Loud was more important than good, even though it was good.

But loud was very important. The first thing these young producers would do, they’d come in and the knob was there, and they’d turn it right to ten. No matter what record was on. And that studio got to be very successful.

Jeff Mao

And Rodney Jerkins was one of the young producers that came to that studio?

Larry Gold

He was one of the young producers who came around. As a matter of fact, the first year we were open... Or no, maybe it was the second year. Again, maybe I did too much drugs, because I don’t remember years and things like that at varying different...

Jeff Mao

It’s okay. We have the internet for that, for fact checking.

Larry Gold

“The Boy is Mine” was... The vocals weren’t done in my room, but the record was made in the studio.

Jeff Mao

And you did the strings for this record?

Larry Gold

I did the strings.

Jeff Mao

So let’s listen to Brandy & Monica, produced by Rodney Jerkins. “The Boy is Mine,” 1998. Strings by Larry Gold.

(music: Brandy & Monica – “The Boy is Mine” / applause)

Larry Gold

This was Rodney’s first hit. It was number one for 16 weeks in America, which was extraordinary. I think only Elvis Presley was number one longer. But for a kid who’s 16 years old, what a day.

Jeff Mao

Yeah, not bad.

[audience laughter]

The harp thing is...

Larry Gold

It’s sampled.

Jeff Mao

I thought he played it. Well, is it him playing that figure?

Larry Gold

Right.

Jeff Mao

It’s the thing that’s really driving this. I mean, you’re kind of filling in.

Larry Gold

The melody on this was, to me it was...

Jeff Mao

Speak into the mic, please.

Larry Gold

Oh, sorry. The melody on this, it’s like a theme. It’s like a Godfather theme or something. It’s very Italian. And I thought it was really cool against... Because the harp was classical, obviously. And I thought it was cool, driving it against Brandy and Monica singing the way they... Including with the breakdown, you barely hear, but the cello’s going [mimics cello playing]. It always ends up that strings are mixed so low. It always bothers me. But it’s not a string record, so I don’t know what I’m saying.

Jeff Mao

What do you think you learned from – besides the exuberance and the energy – the younger producers and artists that you were working with? Because [in] this chapter [of] your career you’re working with people of different generations. What do you think you learned from them?

Larry Gold

I think it was both. They learned from me, and I learned from them. They just had a love for it. And when you have a love for music, that’s something you share in common. When we were talking about my earlier career and... They had the love. And they were young and exuberant and stayed up all night. I would go in the studio, seven or eight in the morning to work on arranging, and they’d be there from the night before. All crashed on the couches. And their music was so loud you could hear it down the block. I tell people that was the first time I really knew I had a studio, when I used to go in and see people sleeping there, and had been there all night. Because that’s how much they loved it.

Jeff Mao

How would you describe the producer-arranger relationship?

Larry Gold

Well, with Rodney, I’d known him since he was 13. So that was a special relationship. He called me... He had nicknames for me, and it was special.

Jeff Mao

Like what? Like what?

Larry Gold

Larr-man was one of them. Philly dude. I mean, I don’t even remember. I represented the history of Philly music to him, though. Being in the room at the same time. He would always ask, “What do you think? What do you... “ And I was free with my opinions. It was my studio. You know? So I was definitely free with my opinion. Rodney was the first of many young producers. But Rodney brought The Roots to my studio.

Because when this record was so big, Ahmir, Questlove, he wanted a little bit of that. So they showed up and James Poyser, who’s another great young producer at the time, showed up, and I started building other little rooms to accommodate everybody, that they had their own little studio. Just like I see this place has all these little rooms and so my studio was...

Well, this was ‘98. So from ‘98 on, I started building these little rooms. To the point where, I don’t own the studio anymore. Some other people own the studio, but Ahmir still has a studio there. The Roots still have a studio there, even though they’re in New York all the time, Ahmir has a record collection there, of... His record collection’s still at the studio. The young producers were ... And then they introduced me to so many other people. As I told you before, Ahmir was so happy to be there and to be part of it, that all of a sudden, he would share me with whoever he could share me with. And I felt really blessed that I had such good, young friends, to be perfectly honest with you.

Jeff Mao

I mean, that Philly, neo-soul, Roots hip-hop scene from that era is, for a lot of people, I would imagine some of the people in this room, that’s the Gamble and Huff era to a prior generation. That represents a really classic era.

Larry Gold

Well, The Roots’ first album they did in my studio was Things Fall Apart. And there’s interludes that I participated in. There’s an interlude called... See, I’m not gonna remember all these titles, but “Love of –”

Jeff Mao

“Love of My Life.”

Larry Gold

“Love of My Life.” There was that [sings]. I remember the melody that I came up with. And they went crazy. And then I did a bunch of other arranging for that record. A little bit here and a little bit there. “You Got Me” has strings on it.

Jeff Mao

Very subtle, though.

Larry Gold

Very subtle.

Jeff Mao

It’s tough to hear.

Larry Gold

Yeah, it’s very subtle. And it was mixed too low. Bob Power. Don’t want to mention any names, but yeah.

Jeff Mao

Sorry, Bob.

Larry Gold

It could’ve been mixed louder. That’s all I’m saying.

Jeff Mao

But do you think also [that] to actually mix the strings higher for that era is kind of a bold move, too? Because...

Larry Gold

Yeah, I think they were afraid. Look at Rodney’s record. Look how low the strings are there. I think that they were afraid I was gonna whitewash hip-hop, or something. I don’t even know. Or, clean it up, I really don’t know. But what happened was, within a few years, I had, at my studio, Timbaland. I had Pharrell. I had ... I can’t even remember all the names that came through. But the studio became a hotbed of what was creatively happening at that time.

I mean, I did Jill’s first record, where the strings, you can hear. It was just a great time. And we had a club. There was a club that featured. So every Tuesday night, it was an open... I had electric cello I used to come and play. See, that was the little bit of playing I did, and they loved it. And Jill would get up and improvise and everybody... And Ahmir would should up and Tariq would get... You know what I mean? It was fun. It was called the Hot Club, I guess, in Philly. It burned down it was so hot.

[audience laughter]

Jeff Mao

You mentioned Timbaland. Maybe we should play something that he produced that you did string arrangements for. This song is entitled “Cry Me a River.” It is by a singer you may’ve heard of named Justin Timberlake, 2002. Strings by Larry Gold.

(music: Justin Timberlake – “Cry Me a River” / applause)

Larry Gold

Timbaland came to visit at the studio and stayed for a month and a half. He was only gonna come for a night. He had a bus outside that had a studio in the back and a bed, but a studio in the back on the bus. And he came up, and we were having a party. It was around Christmas, it was December. And he fell in love with the whole situation, there. And he ended up staying for six weeks. And then he probably went to another city and did the same thing. I don’t know what to say.

But he would come back. I did Justin’s first few records. And they came back. They even flew back ... One time, Justin flew back with Cameron Diaz, who was his girlfriend. And she came to the session. That was sort of an interesting evening.

[audience laughter]

But I think we did “What Goes Around[...Comes Around]” that session. But, yeah. I don’t know what to say.

Jeff Mao

When you are given this material...

Larry Gold

I think I did this one [“Cry Me a River”] almost on the spot.

Jeff Mao

OK, yeah. What’s that situation like?

Larry Gold

I mean, I think I did this one in an hour or two. Prior to even doing it. It’s a very simple and...

Jeff Mao

It is simple, but the simplicity of it is what’s good.

Larry Gold

And it’s just a string quartet and I think I’m playing on this. I don’t even think I hired a cello player. So it was just a simple... I get it. It’s so hip-hop and Timbaland doing [imitates beat boxing] all his mouth noises and I don’t even know, all of it. And I just didn’t want to get in the way of that. But there was... As the end of the record goes on, the strings, again, give you a little bit more emotional feel. To him crying, “Cry me a river.”

Jeff Mao

Right. Do you have a preference in terms of material that you get? I mean, this is a... You’re a craftsperson providing a service, on some level. But also, it’s a creative endeavor. Do you feel like when you get a piece of material that... Some of the songs we played are emotional. They are songs about heartbreak, about disappointment, disillusionment. These things seem to go very well with some of your...

Larry Gold

With strings.

Jeff Mao

String arrangements. Is there a preference for you, when you actually get the material, in terms of subject matter, in terms of what it is?

Larry Gold

There’s no real preference. I like to have at least a week to think about it. I don’t like doing it on the spot. But to people like Timbaland, they want it done then. You know? “Oh, come on up with four musicians, and bring four musicians in and we’ll just sit around and you just write something.” You know? So I did.

That happened on more than one occasion. I don’t like saying that I can do it overnight or in one day or something like that, because I like... First of all, I don’t like having that kind of pressure.

But “Flashing Lights,” I did in one evening. So next day I recorded it. And Kanye [West] just sent it to me. I think Kanye tried a arranger in California, and he didn’t like what they did on that album. And I think what happened was, someone mentioned my name to him, and he just sent it to me. And he said, “Can you get it to me tomorrow? I’m mixing it.” And I said, “What do you mean, get it to you tomorrow?” And he said, “I want a big string intro.” And I said, “OK, well give me one day and I’ll record it the next day.” And I think there were two or three songs that I did on that record.

Jeff Mao

Right, right. The Graduation record.

Larry Gold

You’re right.

Jeff Mao

So then, pulling it together at the last minute, do you have go-to people that you...

Larry Gold

I have a string session that I’ve used. As a matter of fact, yeah. One or two of the string players, I’ve known since the ‘80s. And the rest are young people from the schools. And I’m always trying different people and... But yeah, I have a group of people that I use all the time.

Jeff Mao

In terms of Kanye or any producer giving you a direction, I guess that’s enough, right? I mean, “I want a big string intro.”

Larry Gold

He didn’t even give me a direction, he just said, “I want a string intro on ‘Flashing Lights,’” and that’s all he said. And then he sent me those other songs, and I just did whatever I wanted to do. And then I sent it to him, and he loved it. So that was the end of that.

Jeff Mao

And he mixed it.

Larry Gold

To the point that, I think I did the next record, 808s & Heartbreak with him, and I think I did the one after that. And then I even did another, when he proposed to Kim [Kardashian], he rented out... I think he rented out where the San Francisco Giants play, he rented out the ballpark. And he had an orchestra, and he proposed to Kim... Kim’s favorite song at the time was “Born to Die.”

Jeff Mao

Lana Del Rey, yeah.

Larry Gold

I did the string arrangement on “Born to Die,” but I did a string version, completely, of “Born to Die.”

Jeff Mao

For the proposal?

Larry Gold

For the proposal.

[audience laughter]

And that was... Yeah. There was a 60-piece orchestra. Just him on his knees. No one in the audience. There are pictures. You can go to the internet. I’m sure you can find it.

Jeff Mao

Wow.

Larry Gold

And I didn’t go. He didn’t invite me to come and conduct it.

Jeff Mao

You didn’t get an invitation to the proposal?

Larry Gold

Nah.

Jeff Mao

And you did the string arrangement?

Larry Gold

I sent the arrangement.

Jeff Mao

Wow. That’s got to be disappointing.

Larry Gold

It was bizarre enough that I would’ve probably gone, you know?

[audience laughter]

But I didn’t go.

Jeff Mao

Well, the arrangement on “Flashing Lights” is wonderful, and I think we should listen to it. So let’s listen to Kanye West featuring Dwele, “Flashing Lights.”

Larry Gold

And Jill Scott.

Jeff Mao

And Jill Scott. 2007. Strings by Larry Gold.

(music: Kanye West feat. Dwele – “Flashing Lights” / applause)

Larry Gold

Oh. Got comfortable, there.

Jeff Mao

Is it a different approach when you’re doing something that’s strictly drum machine, hip-hop sort of related?

Larry Gold

I came up with a little theme that I sample, sort of. Even though I played it through. But if you go through that arrangement, I’m leaning very heavily on four or five notes. And I keep featuring those four or five notes, which, in a way, simplifies the arrangement. There’s not a lot of playing. Let’s put it that way.

Jeff Mao

Yeah, but I mean, I can’t even imagine the song without those strings.

Larry Gold

That’s a great arrangement. See?

Jeff Mao

It is a great arrangement.

Larry Gold

That’s a great arrangement. And if you played just the strings, it’s a pretty good arrangement, this one. And it’s mixed well. Yes. I don’t know who mixed it, but kudos to the mixer.

Jeff Mao

When you’re working in the pop realm... You mentioned Lana Del Rey. And you’ve worked with...

Larry Gold

Well, Lana Del Rey, my hookup was Emile Haynie. I told you that.

Jeff Mao

Right.

Larry Gold

Who comes from hip-hop.

Jeff Mao

Right. Well, that’s actually the other interesting thing. Your career – and we were talking about this a little bit earlier – it’s all overlapped in a really organic way. I mean people could look and say, “OK, Gamble and Huff, neo-soul period, 2010s era, pop music,” and maybe see them as disparate groupings. But there is an overlap. The people who made these records also made these records and brought you in, which I think is an important thing to keep in mind. It’s easy to sort of stand back and look at something as being, “This is a genre, this is a genre, this is an era.” But it’s really the outgrowth of different communities.

Larry Gold

Yeah. I think you’re right. And my approach is always... I’m just adding Larry Gold, at this point, which is part Gamble, part Huff, part Bell, part classical music, part... There’s so many different parts that I don’t break myself down. It’s music. You know? I mean, the bottom line is, I adore music.

Jeff Mao

And as far as technology and how you embrace it...

Larry Gold

Well I tried to keep up as best as I could, but it left me behind a little bit. I don’t really... I work with my old computer, the synclavier, still. And I still use a lot of pencil. And I still write an awful lot. And I have a young man that comes in – he’s not so young anymore. But he copies it into the computer and then he shows it to me on the computer, and I tell him what I wanna change and basically, I guess he’s my copyist. And I always had a copyist. But originally, the copyist would work from my written score. And now they work from either a tonal score, or my written score, or a computer score. Those things changed over the course of my lifetime.

Jeff Mao

You’ve chosen to stay in Philadelphia, as well.

Larry Gold

Yes. My wife has taught school in Philadelphia. I’ve raised a daughter in Philadelphia, and maybe I should’ve moved at one point, but I lost that point. And I opened the studio. And the studio consumed... I guess I opened the studio in around ‘96, or something like that, ‘95. And it consumed my life until probably... I sold it about, maybe seven years ago. So until 2011, I was involved on a day-to-day basis.

And by the time 2011 rolled around, maybe we should’ve moved to California, but maybe, shoulda, coulda, woulda. I was getting so much work just coming in over the phone, and them sending me songs, and the internet was playing up so much, to the point where if someone wants to hear what I’m doing, we can have Skype and I can sit there and play it for them or have it... Or send them... I don’t like sending demos. I’d much rather play it for somebody on the phone and talk to them about it, prior to bringing in live instruments.

Jeff Mao

You brought something, which is an actual score of some of your work. This is for a track by the singer Ne-Yo. And you actually also brought a different rough mix of the song entitled “Queen.”

Larry Gold

I don’t even know whether the song ever came out. It was on a movie.

Jeff Mao

It came out on some sort of a soundtrack, I think.

Larry Gold

OK, OK.

Jeff Mao

The Birth of a Nation, I believe.

Larry Gold

Right. That movie bombed right away.

Jeff Mao

Song is still good, though.

Larry Gold

I know.

Jeff Mao

So I wonder if we might show image number five, which is the score. Actually, no, I’m sorry.

Larry Gold

Woah.

Jeff Mao

That’s image number five.

Larry Gold

Holy moly.

Jeff Mao

Image number six, actually. That’s MFSB.

[image appears on screen]

Larry Gold

So this is what this score looks like. And this is another one that’s just piano and Ne-Yo.

Jeff Mao

And it’s a rough mix, so we can hear the strings nice and clear.

Larry Gold

Right.

Jeff Mao

So why don’t we listen to it, and I guess... Let me see. What’s the best way to do this? You guys have the time stamp? Yeah? You good? You sure? Alright. So we’re gonna play this, and then we’ll sort of... If you want to, you can kind of follow along as we get to the different points in the song; these guys are gonna turn the page. So this is Ne-Yo, the rough mix of “Queen” featuring strings by Larry Gold, 2016.

(music: Ne-Yo – “Queen” (rough mix) / applause)

Jeff Mao

What do you want to say about this in terms of a string arrangement?

Larry Gold

I love most strings. I’m a cellist. The cello is low compared to the violin, which is high. So even my violin writing a lot of the times is more within the realm of the lower register. Not the lower register per se of the violin, but lower register. And it adds a warmth to it. To me, on a track like this, the piano provides enough top and again, I’m just following Ne-Yo, basically. I’m just trying to not get in his way. And every once in a while when he stops singing, I move a little bit more. And that’s sort of been my habit since I’ve been younger doing this; I’m really aware of the vocalist and not really stepping on their toes. And I like this song. I thought it was a very well-written song.

Jeff Mao

Yeah, it’s quite beautiful. You’re 70 years old, as you mentioned. What haven’t you done that you still would like to do?

Larry Gold

Well, yeah, I could name a zillion things that I’d like to do, but whether life will let me do those things or not... I’ve never done movies per se. I would love to do a little bit just to see. I would love to work with some people. I like collaborating, and I don’t get the chance anymore because everyone moved out of Philadelphia. I’m sort of left by myself a lot. The Roots moved and Jill moved and everybody moved.

In life, when you move to another area you build new friendships and new things. So in one way I feel like I’ve been left aside and in certain times I feel that way, but I’m also fucking 70 years old. So give me a break here. Most 70 year olds don’t even get out of bed. They do, but I don’t know what I expect. I think my expectations since I was a little boy have been way too high, but that’s what drives me.

Jeff Mao

We’re going to open it up to questions in just a moment, but the last question I want to ask you is, when you talk about strings bringing a depth of feeling to a piece of music, it’s of course the sound of the strings themselves, but the instruments don’t play themselves and the arrangements don’t write themselves. These are from people. So, what do you think it is within you as a person that brings out this depth of feeling? Where does your depth of feeling come from?

Larry Gold

I’m a pretty emotional dude. I could cry at a minute’s notice. That’s the way I’ve been since I was little. So the cello has always represented sadness to me. When my daughter was little and we would watch movies or TV together, as soon as I heard the cello, I would say, “Uh-oh. Someone’s going to die or someone’s going to get sick.” And she was maybe four years old and by the time she was six years old, she heard the cello and would go, “Uh-oh.” It’s a mournful instrument. I don’t know what to tell you.

It can also be a joyful instrument. I’m not going to say it can’t be. But, like you said before, most of the time when people hire me to do an arrangement, the song’s usually about someone breaking up or someone’s got fucked up somehow. So the strings play right into that, into that situation. But, I pride myself on still being a hippie and still have that open mind and being loose about my life, even though it’s pretty formal and tight. I don’t know what to say. But I do feel honored and blessed that I’ve had such a long, fruitful career.

Jeff Mao

Well, we feel honored and blessed that you’ve been with us here today. So let’s say thanks once again to Larry Gold.

[applause]

Larry Gold

Thank you. You’re too kind. I’m going to get verklempt.

Jeff Mao

Alright, so anybody have questions? We have a microphone.

Audience Member

Hi, hi. How can you describe the main role of the strings in the songs that you arrange for? Like, what is the main goal the strings try to...?

Larry Gold

Bring out the feelings and the emotion, like I said. Like on a song like “Cry Me a River,” as simple as it is, he’s talking about a breakup, so I try to add a little bit of emotional depth. In the same way, like we were just saying, in a movie, when you hear the music come in, depending on the kind of movie it is, it adds another element to it. I think the early days of string writing in popular music, it was more based on the melody and more based on... There was an old Philly trick that when you weren’t sure what you were going to write on those old songs, you just copied the melody, you just went with the unified theme of that record. I still do that a lot.

But I use a lot of chords, like it’s quartet or like it’s quarter work. And I think that earlier-on in my career I did a lot of solo work, like little lines that would go with not so many chords. But it’s hard for me to describe. Every song is different and that’s what made it such a nice life so far. I mean, I get to share my talent with their talent and I get paid... well.

Jeff Mao

Anyone else have a question?

Audience Member

Hey, Larry. So you mentioned that the development of technology and stuff changed your workflow in terms of going from...

Larry Gold

Say it again. I’m sorry.

Audience Member

You mentioned about how technology has developed and how that’s changed your workflow. I was wondering ...

Larry Gold

It’s changed the record business.

Audience Member

Right.

Larry Gold

You make records on computers these days.

Audience Member

Yeah, well that’s what I was going to say. So, now with huge advancements in terms of sample packs and the availability of decent sounding strings to most people, has that affected you in terms of the work you get and what you’re writing for and the quality of string writing in a lot of music that you don’t have a part of?

Larry Gold

I think it simplified everything a little bit, because... I’m not saying it’s good or bad. I’m just saying it simplified everything. So many young people now, you have a string sound and they write their strings. For a period of time when all that was just invented, the first thing the young producer would say to me, “Did you listen to my strings?” And I said, “Sure I did. I wrote them out. That was the first thing I did was write out your strings.” “Oh, please use my melody.” I said, “I will use your melody. I will try to enhance your melody.”

I try to be respectful, because they worked on the record. They were at their home or the bedroom or whatever, the studio, and they were the ones who did the records. So I am trying to be a little respectful, but sure it’s changed everything. I’d rather have an empty, blank canvas. Then, whatever I do is easy.

Audience Member

Do you find yourself writing for situations that aren’t going to be played live, like arrangements for string sample instruments and stuff like that?

Larry Gold

I didn’t understand.

Audience Member

Do you find yourself getting work which is not going to be recorded live and do you have an aversion to that?

Larry Gold

Very seldom. I do do that sometimes, but very, very seldom. My whole reputation is based on records, but I have done that. I’ve done that for people that I know and people that I don’t know, but not too often. People don’t really call me for that kind of stuff. Everyone’s sort of pigeonholed in life, aren’t they?

If you had a hit record that was techno, and you wanted to make a live record after that, everybody would say, “Oh, I don’t know about that.” It’s like everyone pigeonholes everybody in life, I think, whether you’re a doctor or a cellist. You have your specialty. I’d love to do more, different kinds of work, but if you don’t get the calls, how are you going to do it? So, mostly it’s records.

Jeff Mao

Anyone else have a question?

Audience Member

Hello. First of all, thank you for being here with us today and sharing your experience. I wanted to ask a question. As I now play and sing with an orchestra in Moscow, I was doing it for quite a long time now, and I noticed that this music is just these days not getting into the ears of people, not getting inside. Like nobody really likes it anymore, I just feel it and...

Larry Gold

Well, I... Is that the question?

Audience Member

You notice that putting a cello or violin into the record, it’s like bringing up emotions and it seems to me like people don’t really like being involved into someone’s emotions. It’s like seeing someone as naked and they say, like, “Oh, he’s naked. I don’t want to see it.” Yeah, and it’s something like that. Do you kind of feel it in the same way?

Larry Gold

Well, I think that strings on records are less and less right now. So, I don’t know. I can’t speak for your generation or the generation that’s going to come after, but I think technology changes everything. And I think right now... This young man talked about... It’s great that you have the opportunity to sing live with an orchestra. That’s thrilling.

I wish more people would appreciate orchestral music and all different kinds of music. But, people in our life, we do get pigeonholed. We do decide. I hope I answered your question a little bit, but I don’t think people are afraid of emotion, though. If I take the last generation that I worked with, like a Jill Scott, she’s not afraid of feelings. I don’t think Lana Del Rey was afraid of feelings either. I think they wanted that.

I don’t know, though. I don’t know what’s going to be in the future as far as... I’ve done some orchestral work, and it tends to get washed away a little bit, if that makes any sense to you. It gets to be too much for the younger generation. It seems to me it’s much more interesting... Like I was watching television the other night in Berlin, and somebody was singing with a quartet and it was pretty good. It seems to me that, if it was an orchestra, it would have been too much of a wash, where the string quartet made it more intimate, all the players were into it, you could tell. I don’t know.

Audience Member

I’m sorry. That may be a little bit boring question, but do you at times not record the strings you write yourself?

Larry Gold

I mostly play. Like, I could pick my cello up and just play, and not any people, just out of my head. It’s interesting. I’ve had a life where people have hired me all the time to do what I do, and when they stop hiring me, maybe I should write all my ideas and expand them, and I probably will. But, I really haven’t had that much time to be able to have that leisure to do that.

Audience Member

And are there times when there are other engineers recording stuff you are writing? And when that happens, do you have a certain sound in mind before and you kind of tell them how to mic the strings or process them, that sort of stuff?

Larry Gold

I’ve had the same engineer now for 20 years, 25 years. He knows what I like, and if I don’t like... We get into the studio, we have the strings there, and I start listening in the ear phones, and if the mic sounds too far away, I say, “Oh, bring those. Bring the mics in tighter. I don’t hear enough presence on the cello. The viola part needs to come out more, either you’re going to play a little louder or move the mic closer.”

Part of the thing about the old Philly sound was it was very tight miked. Now, most everybody likes miking far away. So, that’s part of the wash that you hear and you don’t hear the distinctness. I like hearing that distinctive... I’ve had the cello in my ear my whole life, so I like that. I like, I guess what you would call tight miking.

But I’ve used the same people for years and years and years, and you get used to it. It’s like your bed. You just expect, you expect what you expect. And I mostly do soul records, so there’s a certain sound that I think that over the course of my lifetime, I’m going for and I’m always trying to get to that spot, both engineering-wise and musically.

Audience Member

For most of us, hiring an orchestra is probably not within our budget, so do you have a recommended, go-to configuration or ensemble for getting a full sound with no money?

Larry Gold

Well, when you say no money, there’s always a little bit of money, because I don’t like using musicians then don’t pay them. I can’t do that. But “Cry Me a River” was probably like just four to six instruments. Some of these songs are 15 instruments, but the budget can do that. Usually, you can do something pretty good with four violins or a smaller kind of a group. I mean, the Ne-Yo song probably was only four violins, two violas and two cellos. Usually, I use six violins, two violas and two cellos. That’s what I use, ten players.

And a lot of times, if I want it to sound bigger, I’ll move the mics on the second take. So if I have one set of strings at a tight mic, then I’ll do another version of the same thing where I move the mics a little bit. And it gets a different sound, then I blend the two together. So, by doubling them, all of a sudden I have 20 strings players. And there’s some times I’ll even do it three times, so then I have 30 string players, because I want it to sound more like an orchestra.

But nobody can afford an orchestra anymore. I mean, Kanye can out of his pocket from his clothing company. I remember when these kids in hip-hop in the late ‘90s... We were sitting in my studio once and one of The Roots said to me, “Somebody just came out with a new sneak and it sold out the first day.” I think it was Jay-Z, and it sold out the first day, and someone looked over and said, “Oh, dude made $20 million today.” And I looked at him, I said, “You’re kidding me.”

I had no idea that clothing was going to be... But it seems that’s the way, in the last 20 years, they make more money from clothing than they do their records. And I guess that’s what they call branding. I was never into branding. I’m just a simple cello player. But nobody can hire an orchestra anymore. Even when I say, “Oh, I want to use ten string players.” “Oh, it’s too expensive.” So, I even get shit for it, so I don’t know what to say.

Audience Member

Hey. Thank you so much. It’s been so interesting. I wonder, when you get a song that you’re going to put strings on, what’s the first thing you do when you get that?

Larry Gold

I write out the chords. I write out the bassline, depending on the record, I listen 100 times to the melody. I get to know the song to the point where I can hear it all in my head, so that when I go home at night ... When I go home at night, sometimes I think about the string lines while I’m sitting there or while I’m sleeping. I’ll wake up in the morning or when I go for a long walk, all of a sudden the song comes to me and I’m hearing the way the things are going to work within the context of the song. Music is memory. Everyone should understand that music is memory. You remember a pitch, you remember a piece, you remember this. It’s all memory. So, that’s the first thing I do. I memorize what I’m going to be working on.

Audience Member

So do you usually play or play the arrangement some way at first, or do you think of it and then write it dow; or do you play it on the cello, or do you play it on the piano, the chords?

Larry Gold

I never play it on the cello. I told you, for 25 years I didn’t even take my cello out of the case, basically. I have samples. I have string samples that I use, that I play. Once I start formulating my ideas, I put the ideas into my old synclavier and I sit around and I put it on repeat and I sit on my couch and I listen. And I start changing things, back and forth or I put the arrangement up on the computer so I can see like you saw, and I start moving things around, “Oh, that’s too much here. This is the ... “

Audience Member

Thanks.

Audience Member

Hello.

Larry Gold

Hello.

Audience Member

You mentioned earlier you spend a lot of time with your instrument. I was just wondering, how do you keep practice time interesting?

Larry Gold

How do I keep what?

Audience Member

Practicing, or time with your instrument, how do you keep it interesting without getting bored, and what’s your practice routine like?

Larry Gold

Well, in the last two years, I picked my cello up again seriously and so... It was like rebuilding. My hands were sore. I couldn’t play. I had no callouses. And I promised myself I would play very slowly and I would not force myself into situations where I would sound shitty. And I just very painstakingly play, and I don’t get bored because it’s life. It’s my breath in my life, so I really don’t get bored of it.

And I progress slowly, just like you do when you’re a child learning an instrument. You learn how to play the open strings and you learn how to play... There’s a famous old movie called... I think Bill Murray [was in it] and he used “baby steps,” he called it. Well, I do baby steps. I think music is baby steps. When I build an arrangement, it’s baby steps. I start here, and I move to this part and I do this or I do this. Very seldom do I do the whole thing all in one shot. I like giving myself, whether it be writing or playing, I like giving myself a little bit of time to develop it.

Audience Member

You mentioned you haven’t touched your cello in two years. How did it feel to not be able to play or to not have time to play your instrument that gives you joy?

Larry Gold

Well, you know what? I was trying to make a life for myself in my old age and I didn’t think I would go back to playing the cello, and I knew it would have to do with records, so I really didn’t mind giving up my cello for those years, but I still did music every day. There was years there when I arranged vocals, when there were three or four young vocalists in the room.

And that’s like writing strings. It’s similar. And it’s all a learning experience. And again, I talked about baby steps. I think one of the things about making a record is you have to be able to imagine yourself playing, like with you and your computers you’re playing the bass or you’re doing the drums or you’re doing a violin or... So, you have to get into it and use your imagination. But I think it’s baby steps.

Jeff Mao

So guys, I think we’re going to wrap it. Larry is going to be around this evening in the studio, so if you have any more questions that you think of you can always hit him up. He’s going to be hanging around for the rest of the afternoon, and he’s just as entertaining off the couch as he is on. So it’s a wonderful opportunity to just talk to him. But, I can’t think you enough again for being here.

[applause]

Larry Gold

I can’t thank you guys enough. Thank you.