Lonnie Liston Smith & Gilles Peterson

RBMA

OK. Hello and welcome to the very definition of intimate venues right now. A suitably cosmic location here in Bristol, for the last of the Bristol days, on the Red Bull Music Academy Tour. The leader of the Cosmic Echoes, and very much more Mr. Lonnie Liston Smith.

[Applause]

More cosmic coincidences, Bristol, you said before, Harvey’s Bristol Cream is one of your favorite drinks, so that’s a good thing.

Lonnie Liston Smith

That is amazing. I forget, where did we work before?

RBMA

Colston Hall. You played…

Lonnie Liston Smith

Colston Hall. Then they took us to a restaurant, but before the restaurant that was the original place that they used to make the Harvey’s Bristol Cream. When you preform you send a rider to say, “I need this, I need that,” and on my rider is, “I need a bottle of Harvey’s Bristol Cream,” just a little bit of it. [Laughter] It was amazing.

RBMA

Keeping with that Bristol cosmic connection, again, one of Bristol’s favorite musical sons, Roni Size, sampled Lonnie Liston Smith on a track called “Shadows.”now The track he sampled is called “Shadows,” and his track was “Brown Paper Bag,” which came out on the label of my other guest today, Mr Gilles Peterson [applause].

Gilles Peterson

As it goes…

RBMA

Gilles, it’s good to have you here today. It’s good to have both of you here, unfortunately we’re not going to be able to…

Gilles Peterson

I was going to make a little comment. Sorry… I was going to say, it wasn’t “Brown Paper Bag.” It was on a track called, “It’s A Jazz Thing.” Which came out on…

RBMA

I just said, “Brown Paper Bag,” didn’t I?

Gilles Peterson

Yeah. Come on, man.

RBMA

I’ve been confusing those all day. I’ve been getting jazzy in my head and I’ve been going the wrong way round. Thank you for pointing that out.

Gilles Peterson

I’ve got to start from the positive…

RBMA

We’ve got to start out on the right foot – you have to point that out to me.

Gilles Peterson

Yeah.

RBMA

Excellent, thank you. Thank you very much for that, Gilles, I think? I’ve actually written, “Jazz Thing,” as well, so I don’t even know why I said that. Better move on from that. We will be having a chat where Gilles will be correcting me at each turn, for the next 40 minutes or so. Then there will be a slight break, the lights will go out, the atmosphere will build, and then we will hear an exclusive performance for about an hour, after a 15-minute break, with Lonnie, and the band that Gilles and himself put together.

Preamble over, I’m going to ask you a couple of things as our main guest tonight. You’ve played in the UK a few times before – how has outside of the US been a big part of your career?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Yeah, that’s a good question because I did the record “Expansions”, in ’75. I wanted to put jazz, and fusion and funk, together. I did “Expansions” and what blew my mind, it took off in the UK, it became a monster hit, and I came over. Back then, they had these places where kids could go and dance. I don’t think they served any alcohol. I saw little kids, what… 13, 14, 15, 16 on up, dancing to “Expansions.” I never forgot that. That was a really great experience.

RBMA

Gilles, you’ve, from your prior radio days…

Gilles Peterson

By the way, they did serve alcohol at those things.

RBMA

See, I [laughter]…

Lonnie Liston Smith

I don’t know, I don’t know [laughter]…

Gilles Peterson

They did. Just saying. [Laughter] Sorry.

RBMA

He’s just here to… he can’t help it…

Gilles Peterson

It’s just coming my way.

RBMA

They’re coming your way… we’re handing them to you on a plate.

Gilles Peterson

Yeah.

RBMA

Gilles, since your first days on the radio, to just this week on Radio 6 Music, you’ve been playing Lonnie Liston Smith’s music. Tell me about your own personal relationship with his music and what was the jump-off point for you?

Gilles Peterson

Yeah, I think it was “Expansions.” I would have been nine when that came out, or ten or something. I didn’t hear it when it came out, but when I started DJing on pirate radio at 15, 16 years old, it was like a classic song. It was a song that everyone had to have in their box. It was like one of the essential tracks. What was so amazing about it was that it was out of the norm. Still now, when I listen to it, I’m like, “This track is just so unique.” It was this incredible place where funk, fusion and jazz, met. It felt so good.

We were talking earlier on, someone like Larry Levan in New York, who was the biggest DJ in the world, influence-wise, that was a classic song for him. It was a song that, for DJs, you made it for us. It opened the door for more people to take more risks in a way in music. It was a really, really important song for that. For me, it got me into jazz, I think. It was one of those key records. A lot of artists of that era, notably yourself, and people like George Duke and Roy Ayers… we don’t just walk out and buy a John Coltrane record… you need to go through a doorway that will lead you that way. That was one of those incredible records that introduced a lot of people to different aspects of music.

RBMA

Do you ever get bored talking about “Expansions,” or are you as proud of it as everyone is keen to talk to you about it?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Oh no, I’m really proud of it because what people don’t realize, every musician on that record had never played that way before. It was amazing. I mean, these were stone-cold jazz musicians. Actually, the bass line, Cecil McBee was playing upright bass and everyone swore it was an electric bass. That’s Cecil McBee on upright bass… and, of course, the triangle: Gilles has reminded me, when I get back home I’m going to figure out which musician played the triangle.

It all came together and we were all jazz musicians from just playing straight-ahead jazz. Then, I said that’s the first time I wrote lyrics because, before that, I would listen to the blues. Everybody is crying in the blues, “My baby left me,” and all that. I said, “OK, let me write some lyrics that really will have some positive thought behind it and people can maybe get something out of it but, at the same time, they can dance.”

The jazz, fusion, funk… the jazz is [that] you still can improvise over the top of the funk and all that. It worked. Yeah.

RBMA

It’s got your brother on the vocals.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Oh, that’s another interesting story. My younger brother – I have two younger brothers – and my father has that beautiful tenor voice. Just like Donald, who is singing on “Expansions,” and Ray, they both inherited that tenor voice. We used to get together and sing around the house, I always had to sing the bass part. I couldn’t get the tenor. When I wrote “Expansions,” I heard my father’s voice. He sang with The Harmonizing Four. I called Donald, Donald plays piano also and flute, he said, “Yeah, OK. I’ll sing it.” He sang on it, and it all worked and came together.

RBMA

You mentioned your father. You mentioned your family life. Your father was a big musician in his own right, in The Harmonizing Four.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Yeah, The Harmonizing Four gospel group. They were well known all over the world, so when I grew up it was nothing for me to come home from school and there’d be The Dixie Hummingbirds there… I met Sam Cooke when he was with The Soul Stirrers. People forget those brothers, the Womack brothers, they started out in gospel… they were a gospel group – my father told me about them. See, they had gospel festivals, just like we had jazz festivals. They would all have a festival in one town, then they would go to the next town. I found out a little later on in life that my father, The Harmonizing Four… Eleanor Roosevelt invited them to sing at the White House when President Roosevelt passed. He was laid-back, like I am, they would say. He never really told us, and I found out on the internet! He was a great musician, and he played the four-string guitar. It was just music, I tell people, from the time I came out of the womb. It was just all music. That’s the way it was.

RBMA

And that was in Richmond?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Richmond, Virginia.

RBMA

You went to university in Baltimore? Is that right? To study music?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Yeah, I went to Morgan State University in Baltimore, Maryland. I’m glad I did, because I was supposed to be moving to New York but I went there to Morgan State University. When I got to Baltimore, that’s when I met Gary Bartz. He lived there, Gary Bartz, and a whole lot of other talented musicians who are all famous now. Gary Bartz’s father had a jazz club called the North End Lounge. We started performing there, and all kinds of musicians came through… A whole lot of different musicians. We all started in Baltimore.

Oh! Then Betty Carter came through town, she needed some musicians to play behind her. That was a very unique experience, she is a very talented singer. They call her Betty “Be-Bop” Carter. That was about the strongest woman I’ve ever been around. She could sing just like the guys playing the horns. That was a good experience.

RBMA

What was it that took you towards jazz initially?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Oh, in the beginning I was in high school and I heard a record over at someone’s house. I just couldn’t believe, I said “What is that!”, and it was Charlie Parker playing “Just Friends” with strings. I was used to rhythm and blues, gospel and doo-wop, that was big back then. Then when I heard Charlie Parker, I said, “What is he doing?” They said, “He’s doing improvisation.” He was just flying all over the universe, you know… just flying. No red lights, no nothing. It was just beautiful. I said, “I want to learn how to do that,” and that was the beginning of learning how to play jazz.

RBMA

That jazz education you got back home, you then packed up your bags and took them to the big city, New York.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Oh, yeah. After college, I went to New York. What you do is start sitting in jam sessions and I started working with a lot of singers… Joe Williams, Dakota Staton. Started working with Betty Carter again.

RBMA

Did you feel you had to move to New York to further your musical ambitions? You decided at that point, that this is what you were intending to do and New York was the only place to do it?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Yeah, back then, you really had to move to New York. Everything revolved around New York City. You get to New York, and then all the sudden people hear you play. They pass your name around, then you get calls from Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers, Max Roach. They all offer you a job and you start working with these different groups, and eventually you end up with Miles Davis. After that, everyone that worked with Miles Davis, you end up forming your own group.

RBMA

You worked with the Jazz Messengers briefly, but the first time you recorded, who was that with?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Mm-hmm… Rahsaan Roland Kirk, we did two tracks, I mean two albums, Here Comes The Whistleman and Now Please Don't You Cry, Beautiful Edith. [Records are passed to him] Wow!

RBMA

Wow, OK… Both classics.

Lonnie Liston Smith

The interesting point is that he played three saxophones simultaneously. He had a nose flute, so he would be playing all these things and then he would say… [whistles]. He was a good musician. That was it. It worked.

RBMA

You mentioned some of the people you went on to work with and I just wanted to stop on one of them real quick, first of all, who was Pharoah Sanders. How did that experience come about? How did you meet Pharoah Sanders?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Well, that’s very interesting because we were at a club in New York City called, Slugs. Everyone used to go there. I went to hear Pharoah, and it sounded like Pharaoh was playing more than one note on the saxophone, which they tell you in school, “You can’t do that”. He was doing it. At that time, I was trying to get more sound, I had only been playing grand pianos. You have ten fingers and all of the sudden you say, “I need more sound”. Then you do this, but you weren’t banging them, you were trying to get more sound. Pharoah, I heard that and I said, “How can you play more than one note?”, he said, “Why shouldn’t you? You’re getting more sound,” he said.

We got together, then we heard Leon Thomas yodeling. It was incredible. We, all three, got together and didn’t even have to rehearse much. It was so organic, we just started preforming and playing. We did that first beat record, Karma, and it took off worldwide.

RBMA

You have one guy yodeling, one guy playing two instruments, and you playing with your elbows? That’s jazz.

Lonnie Liston Smith

OK, I shouldn’t have told you [laughter]

RBMA

I was going to ask you how the creative, the musical process when you and Pharoah Sanders were working together, it was quite a creative push-and-pull?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Right, because Pharoah had been with Sun Ra. I didn’t discover Sun Ra and people like Cecil Taylor until I got into New York City. That was avant-garde music, where you just improvise and stretch out as far as you can go. And Sun, those of you who are familiar with Sun Ra, he would play, but Sun Ra would stray out so far into the cosmos.

I told Pharoah, “Let’s not leave the people out there… OK we go out, but let’s bring them back”. It worked. “The Creator Has A Master Plan,” we really stretched out, but then we would come back to the melody at the end, and everyone can calm down. After you listen to the music and you leave them out there, they have to go to work the next day, the kids, everything…

RBMA

Gilles, as a fan of all kinds of jazz, you said at the beginning that one of the main attractions of Lonnie Liston Smith was this kind of fusion… As a fan, what was it like to listen to these out-there records for the first time?

Gilles Peterson

The thing is, with Lonnie, for the first ten years of me being a DJ, I didn’t know about Pharoah Sanders and people like that. I was just listening to his boogie and his jazz-funk records, because you made like ten or 11 records, maybe more, on CBS and on Flying Dutchman. They were quite unique Lonnie Liston Smith records that were kind of electric and lots of synths and keyboards, and funky and a bit of disco. It was perfect for us soul boys, going to Caister Soul Weekenders and stuff.

It’s only in the last ten, 15 years that I look back on your career, since there’s been Wikipedia. You go, “Lonnie Liston Smith”, and you go, “Wow, he played on my favorite Pharaoh Sanders album, Jewels Of Thought”, you played “Prince Of Peace,” which I like on that. Then I saw he was on the Roland Kirk, and then Max Roach and Art Blakey. I saw his history, “Oh, my God, this totally makes sense.” You made that connection between that very special period in American jazz, where it was a little bit free, but it still had a little bit of melody in it.

For me, it’s the ultimate music. It’s funny because a couple of weeks ago, I did a show in London with the Strata East All-Stars which featured Cecil McBee. They had a record label called Strata East. There’s Strata East Records, Black Jazz Records, there was Impulse Records, and there was Flying Dutchman Records. Those labels are all the ultimate jazz heritage labels, for me.

You are part of that, but you took it and revolutionized it a little bit. Some of those musicians didn’t quite know where to go when electronics came in. They did, through Miles Davis, a bit, but they kind of got into jazz-funk or smooth jazz. Whereas with you, there was always an edge. That is incredible. Thank you for that. It’s important you get the props for that.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Thank you.

RBMA

Thank you, thank you.

Lonnie Liston Smith

When I was working with Miles Davis, that’s a really funny story. Before I got there, you had Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, and they all played the Fender Rhodes. I had just discovered Fender Rhodes and I said, “Oh, OK I’m going to play Fender Rhodes. I can really experiment now.” I get to the first recording and I’m looking, I don’t see anything, so I say, “Miles, what am I supposed to do?” I can’t talk like Miles, Miles is very frank. Which is good, it made you stronger.

He said, “I’m tired of the bleeping Fender Rhodes,” which makes sense, all those excellent people. He said, “You’re playing that.”

I said, “Miles, what is that?” The Japanese had just given him a Yamaha electric organ.

He said, “I want that sound there.”

I said, “Miles, I have never played one.”

“Good.”

I said, “Can I take it home and practice?”

“No.”

That’s how amazing… he’d get mad if you didn’t come up with something different every night. So, with me not having one, I had to come up with something different every night. At the same time learning how to play it. Miles, on his trumpet, he had the wah-wah pedal and all these little instruments.

I said, “Hmm,” – before I did “Expansions” – “let me hook all the same things that Miles has on his trumpet up to the Rhodes electric piano. It really worked. That’s where you heard that. I call it the “cosmic sound”. I got that from watching Miles with his trumpets so, that’s great.

RBMA

You worked on On the Corner with Miles.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Oh, right.

RBMA

Was that the album?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Yeah, On the Corner, and I think there was one other, yeah…

RBMA

While on the Fender Rhodes, that’s what you’re known for fantastically – thank you Gilles [laughter] – On the Corner, this is the credit on the back. You got into the Fender Rhodes as an instrument, working with Pharoah Sanders on the Thembi album, is that right?

Lonnie Liston Smith

When we went to California, I think the last record I did with Pharaoh was called Thembi… Before that, I had only played the grand piano, so when you get to the studio with a grand piano, you don’t have to do anything. Pharoah has to unpack his horns, the bassist has to get his bass together, the drummer to set up the drums. I’m just standing there and I see this instrument in the corner. I ask the engineer, “What is that?”

He said, “That’s the Fender Rhodes electric piano.”

I said, “OK.” I just walked over and started messing with it, playing with the knobs, and this song came to me. I guess the Creator just sent it, and Pharoah and everyone ran over saying, “What are you doing?”

I said , “I’m just writing this song.”

They said, “We’ve got to record this right now… What are you going to call it?”

At that time, I was studying astral projection and the song sounded like we were all over the place, floating through the space and the sky. I said, “Let’s call it ‘Astral Traveling.’ We left our bodies and we’re just floating everywhere.” We called it “Astral Traveling”, I’ll play a little bit of it for you tonight.

It turned out to be a 12-bar, I call it 12-bar 21st-century blues. The blues people – over here in London you have a lot of rock musicians who really study the blues, and the Rolling Stones, and I forget the other guy, “I Shot The Sheriff,” who was that? Eric Clapton – they forget that all the jazz guys Miles, we all were listening to Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters. I was so happy when “Astral Traveling” turned out to be a blues, but it’s a cosmic blues.

RBMA

What seems to be springing up each time is you being pushed creatively, with no time at all or learning on the job, it was all improvisation that seems to be at the heart of the music up until now. When you started your own band – having had this incredible, not even apprenticeship, an incredible grounding with these guys – what was the mission statement that you were taking with you from the people that you had learned with before?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Well, actually they made me start my own band. I was with Miles, and Bob Thiele called me and said, “Lonnie, you’ve got to do a record. Everybody is asking about you.”

I said, “OK, that’s good, I’ve got to do a record. It’s nice. Lonnie Liston Smith has his own record.” Then I go back and work with Miles. Months later, I get a call from Bob Thiele, “Lonnie, you’ve got to get a band together, because your record is being released and you are a leader now.”

I said, “Oh man, I’m not leaving Miles!” I told Miles that story, he just laughed and got a big kick out of it. He always said I wear my emotions on my sleeve.

He said, “Why did you do the record then?”

I said, “Oh, shoot!”

Then I started the group, and being a leader is a big step. When you are working with someone else, all you have to do is just be on time. I know I’m going to be on time, but when you are the leader of the band, “Oh man, where is the bass player, where is the drummer, oh shoot, some people are not on time.”

Then you have to learn about business, and that’s when music really takes a turn. You balance out creativity, and the art of music, and business, that’s a trip. You know, you’re in love with music, so you have to do what you have to do.

RBMA

The band was, The Cosmic Echoes, and what where your first few releases?

Lonnie Liston Smith

We did Astral Traveling was the first one and then we had, Cosmic Funk. Bob Thiele said, “I have a cover in mind. I want to have an upright piano.” He had someone destroy an upright piano. I said, “Bob you can’t do that,” but he did it. That’s when “Expansions” came out. Expansions was the third album, and everything just took off from there.

RBMA

You mentioned Bob Thiele a couple of times. Bob Thiele ran the Flying Dutchman label.

Lonnie Liston Smith

He produced all the John Coltrane albums on Impulse. He goes all the way back to… He produced all of Pharaoh’s records, Gato Barbieri, he produced Gil Scott-Heron… what was the one that he did, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised? Bob Thiele produced all these records.

RBMA

Was he really important for you, as a creative, expansive musician, to have very thoughtful A&R guy looking after your catalog, basically? You need to have someone who’s strong enough, but who’s also going to give room to breathe.

Lonnie Liston Smith

The great thing about Bob Thiele, he never got in the way of any musician. He respected the musicianship and artistry of each musician. He would tell me, he was producing John Coltrane one time, and they decided to do a record with John Coltrane and Duke Ellington. Played the whole record on piano… So, Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, they did the song. Bob came out of the studio, he said, “I want you to do another track.” Duke Ellington told him, “No, because each time it’s going to be different anyway, so why?” That’s true. He’d tell me stories like that, but he never got in your way. He’d come up with strange title, but I’d say, “No, Bob.” He’d say, “I want you to call this song ‘Dumpy Mama’” or something. I said, “Bob [laughter] that’s not cosmic. You can’t do that.” It was all fun.

RBMA

You mentioned reading about astral projections, as you do. As we all do, I’m sure. Sun Ra, obviously, had a very cosmic element to everything he did. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the thinking of the time was, and trying to get in this fascination with space travel and these bigger themes like that and trying to push that into your own music.

Lonnie Liston Smith

For some reason in America, I don’t know about over here, but in America, in the ’70s, creativity was superb. We were blessed with all these great artists. There was a bookstore in New York called Wisner’s, and it had all books on every religion, all philosophies. It was nothing to enter the bookstore and you see Sun Ra looking at certain books, John Coltrane. I was studying everything. They had Sufism, they had books on music, and I was going to all these different lectures… That was big then. They would come over and do transcendental meditation. Scientology is a little bit different for me. The Theosophical Society, Rosicrucianism… I wrote a song in search of truth. I did a record called Renaissance, and I put every symbol, religious symbol, philosophy symbol, on the inside of the cover. I was wondering, maybe I can save the world through music. Keep trying, but that’s what I meant by “Expand Your Mind.”

All the religions and philosophies were basically saying the same thing, so I’m saying, “Why are we fighting?” Then you keep studying, and you find out about business, and you say, “Whoa, it’s business and greed. So then, I’ll just keep playing music.” [Laughs / applause]

RBMA

Did you ever have an issue with the purists? We talked a lot about the stars that you’re bringing into jazz. Was it ever a problem or an issue?

Lonnie Liston Smith

You still have that today. It’s just all music. Aw man, when Miles did Bitches Brew, I know people have been listening to Miles since they were kids, and when he did Bitches Brew I just thought they were going to just leave the planet. They really couldn’t deal with it. It still goes on today. It’s all music. That’s one thing I like about Europe. When you’re having festivals, you have all the music lovers in it. Blues, jazz, whatever. When I was working with Miles, I learned something. I listened to Miles. I said, “Wow, he’s still playing Miles, the same thing,” but everything else had changed around him. That’s what he wanted, because he just wanted to keep going forward. I guess that purist thing is always going to be a conflict.

RBMA

Gilles, you’re a big fan of the more disco records that Lonnie came up with, later on in the ’70s. We’ll talk about those beforehand.

Gilles Peterson

I like it all. All his stuff. It’s true, he’s one of those guys who’ve… your phases all make sense at one stage or another. Even the later records after your CBS years, when you went to Dr Jazz, you discovered Marcus Miller, right? He was 16.

Lonnie Liston Smith

That was when we were on Columbia, and we had a jam session. Of course, Marcus Miller is big, big now, but we was jamming, and I heard just a little kid play bass. I said, “Wow.” He was 16, he had the hat all turned all around, and everything. I said, “Wow, he sounds good.” Then he said, after he jammed, he put the bass down, he said, “I’ve got a song for you.” I’m looking at a 16-year-old kid saying, “What is he talking about?” He’s sitting there, and he played piano also, he actually plays a whole lot of instruments, so he sat down and he started on the Fender Rhodes… I said, “Uh-oh, what is that?” He said, “That’s ‘Journey Into Love.’” I took him into the studio. I was getting ready to do a record, so I just took him in the studio. Columbia went crazy. “You bringing this little 16-year-old kid here…” and blah, blah, blah. After we recorded a couple of songs, all of a sudden, I notice Columbia got him in the corner over here. I said, “Oooo! I see.” The rest is history. He wrote a lot of songs, and he understood exactly what I wanted. It worked.

RBMA

We talked a lot about collaborating with a lot of older musicians, but you’ve also been, as Gilles has pointed out, you’ve also been a hit with the younger generation – another generation who discovered you through hip hop – which leads me on to talk about your experience with Guru and Jazzmatazz. How was that for you? How did that come about?

Lonnie Liston Smith

That was very interesting because Gilles discovered jazz through “Expansions,” and things like that. The hip-hop artists, and it’s right now, they’re discovering jazz through samples. We did this record… EMI called said we’re doing Jazzmatazz. I said, “What is that?” They said, “We want to use a different artist on each song.” The business was handled correctly, so they flew me to New York, hotel, the whole bit. I think I did the track called ‘Down The Backstreets.’ I said, “OK, that’s good.”

MTV, back then, and probably still today, they’re really not into jazz. We did Jazzmatazz, MTV drove us crazy. “Oh man, this is history. Rap meets jazz.” I think they put us on MTV, the whole bit. I went on tour with them, Donald Byrd, I went on tour with Guru, I think it was in Europe, or in Japan. It was amazing. Every day, we’d be in a record store, Donald Byrd and I, we’re getting all the jazz records, and we look up, here are all the rappers in the same section. They’re looking for samples, but everyone is discovering jazz through samples now.

RBMA

How appreciative or how aware were you of hip-hop up until then, through the ’80s?

Lonnie Liston Smith

That’s good…

Gilles Peterson

You were appreciative when you stared receiving some royalties off of it, right?

Lonnie Liston Smith

[Laughs] Gilles, you’re so… OK… After Guru, because I started meeting them, they would be hanging out. Then you started meeting the different rappers. I really can relate to Tupac. That boy was really talented. It’s a shame whatever happened in the end. I found one of his books on his poetry… Then there was a guy, he raps but he raps in double time. I can’t think of his name. I really like that. Of course, I have to love Jay-Z, because Jay-Z sampled my song on “Dead Presidents,” “Garden of Peace.” Then Mary J and Young Jeezy, all of them¬… That, moreso than “Expansions”… When they sample “Expansions,” I understand that. When the young rappers and the young kids walk up to you and say, “‘A Garden Of Peace’ is a beautiful song.” That blows my mind, because “A Garden of Peace” doesn’t have any drums. No bass. I’m playing grand piano, and then I overdubbed the electric piano. It’s just a beautiful song, but they fell in love with it. That’s an old one. It works.

RBMA

It was Stetsasonic and, am I right in saying that “Talkin’ All That Jazz” was the main one for “Expansions”? You joke about it but it’s a nice fillip later on in your career to be receiving respect as well as checks from a new generation who are appreciating you.

Lonnie Liston Smith

That helps, because I guess I was just real fortunate and real blessed, because I learned about the business the hard way, as most people do. What it really showed me was how to take it, because at first, you’d be saying, “Oh, they’re robbing me. They’re taking advantage of me.” Then when you start talking to people in other businesses, and business is business. Then you say, “Well, everybody got problems, everybody’s going to take advantage of you, if you’re not aware.” Then I said, “OK, I’m taking it too personal.” When they started sampling this song, and the Mary J Blige song “Take Me As I Am” – she sampled “A Garden of Peace” – was a monster hit, I think she won a Grammy and everything. When you receive the first check and you can pay off a whole lot of things, then you’ll be saying, “Hmm. This business can be beautiful.”

RBMA

That’s one way of working with the younger generation. Recently, you did a Brownswood session with Gilles, here. When you work with new people now, do you still get the same excitement, feeling of improvisation with music and styles that you’re not aware of before you go into it?

Lonnie Liston Smith

A few years ago, Gilles wanted me to do something called the Boiler Room. I said, “What’s the Boiler Room?” He said, “Millions of people watch it.” I said, “OK…” Then he hooked me up with Swindle, and I don’t know who Swindle is, but he’s the new up and coming… I said, “Well, Swindle, what can we do?” I sent him a couple of songs, and he said, “I’ll arrange them in this particular genre, and you just play.” We go to the Boiler Room at Gilles’s place, out in the back yard, and it worked. I met Terri, the young lady that was singing in there, she was there. That’s when I first met her when she was doing a lot of things with Swindle. I met them all for maybe about an hour and said, “This is what we’re doing… OK.” Then we went on and filmed it and recorded it, and the next day I had to go to Manchester. They picked us up and they said, “Oh man, I saw you on the Boiler Room. It was beautiful.” I said, “What?” It worked. We had a lot of fun.

Gilles Peterson

The maddest thing of that day was that I had Lonnie Liston Smith and Swindle in the back garden in Finsbury Park, and it was a beautiful day that I chose, the afternoon or something. All the neighbors were looking out the windows and they were listening. They had Lonnie Liston Smith on a Tuesday afternoon playing – it was like a trip for them. [Laughter] I’ll never forget that. That was so cool.

RBMA

Talking about that session, and then you mentioned Terri was over there. Tell us a little bit about the band that we’ve got coming up tonight.

Gilles Peterson

Today is a little bit of a celebration of the fact that Expansions, the album, which is this one here [holding up record] – they’re all brilliant sleeves, by the way, I don’t know if you can see it really well, but they’re all real conceptual things. Apparently, this record, Lonnie says to me, that [he’s] got the original artwork at home for this.

Lonnie Liston Smith

I’ve got the original artwork to Expansions, Astral Traveling, Visions Of A New World, and Renaissance. Let me see if I can show you something. This is fantastic, but on the original there’s something else on it, and RCA was just too nervous and thought we cannot use that. It was nothing negative. There’s something else right here, and it’s beautiful, so I have the original. I’m talking to Gilles, and maybe we’re going to try selling these to somebody.

Gilles Peterson

I’m having that, all the way, if it’s original first. Anyway, so Expansions, 40 years ago tomorrow – April 7 1975, it came out. It’s 40 years ago that the record came out, which is incredible. It is the supreme [applause]… I didn’t mean to coin this right now, but I think it’s the “Love Supreme” of the jazz/funk generation. I think it’s as important a song as “Love Supreme,” so for the show today, we’re celebrating that particular song and that particular album.

We’ve got a band that features your guitarist, Samir, who’s come over. We’ve added a few really great, young… we’ve gone for the Jazz Messengers type of philosophy here by bringing in some young British players. There’s a really great scene happening in the UK at the moment and we’ve got a brilliant drummer called Moses Boyd who worked with Zara McFarlane, one of my singers, in the last couple of years. We got a couple of other musicians. I didn’t even know, this is people that were introduced to me by Moses the last couple of weeks. We’ve got a girl called Nabia, who is incredible, who’s going to be playing flutes and saxophone. We’ve got, who else we’ve got? We’ve got my MC, I’m meant to be doing something at this gig, but my job is basically putting out the odd record, going, “Wicked.”

Going to rehearsal yesterday, we’ve got sound effects and stuff, so my MC and my sound man is going to be doing stuff, Rob Gallagher, he’s here and going to be doing stuff. We had to get someone to play the triangle, because the triangle is the critical bit. We were getting ready for this band, and we were like, “Oh my god, we haven’t thought about the triangle.” Luckily for us, we got the best trianglist in the land, who’s going to be here, who’s brilliant. I think that’s the band. We’re got a killer bass player as well. It’s basically going to be a sort of extended version of Expansions, touching different rhythms, and a few of your classics.

RBMA

That’s the band up there laughing, I think.

Audience member

What about Terri?

Gilles Peterson

Oh yeah, Terri. (laughter) You’ve had a shout already tonight. Terri Walker, who you [to Lonnie] met through Swindle.

Lonnie Liston Smith

That’s when I first met Terri, when we did Boiler Room.

Gilles Peterson

She’s got some really good films on her phone tonight, but that’s another story.

RBMA

One more record that you’ve got in there Gilles, while you bring in the props man, is a case of mistaken identity. How often do you, while Gilles is flicking through that, are you tired of this Dr Lonnie Smith thing?

Gilles Peterson

Not the same person.

Lonnie Liston Smith

Ladies and gentlemen… that’s a trip. It’s enough that I have to deal with the business and everything, it’s a young man. He’s an organist, and his name is Lonnie Smith. That’s just the way it is. Needless to say, he’s Dr Lonnie Smith, and he has a turban, and a long beard. At least those that can see, can see the difference.

Gilles Peterson

Have you ever turned up at a gig where they were expecting him to turn up? Were they like, “Where’s the turban?” Have you had that?

Lonnie Liston Smith

No. A lot of people always sending me emails, “I went to see Dr Lonnie Smith and I thought…” They thought I was going to be there. That’s always been happening lately.

RBMA

There’s no tales of a guy in turban turning up and taking your checks away from the post office? None of those “Garden Of Peace” checks.

Lonnie Liston Smith

That’s one good thing about direct deposit.

RBMA

Are you as curious music as ever? What are you listening to yourself at the moment? What’s on the stereo in the car or at home?

Lonnie Liston Smith

I watch a lot of YouTube, because YouTube is fantastic, in so far as you can go back and check out musicians that maybe you missed – they’re on YouTube videos now. I love listening to Trane, and Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Lee Morgan. I listen to a lot of that. When I get back home I’ve got to really check out something cool… Gilles told me about this new young artist Kendrick Lamar. They’ve got me very curious because they’re really praising him. He has a No 1 record, and they say he’s very intelligent rapper. I gotta check it out…

RBMA

What’s next for you? Are you going to be touring, playing any gigs recently? Coming up that we can see? Or are you just going to go back and compose some new music?

Lonnie Liston Smith

Right now, because I’ve been talking to Gilles, maybe I’m going through a transitional period, because people don’t realize that traveling now, the overhead is just so expensive. Planes and different things like that. Years ago, I would just jump on plane 16, 18 hours to Japan without even thinking about it. Now you’re having thoughts… Maybe, I don’t know, I’m in a transition period whether to just really slow down or I don’t know… I have to figure that out for myself.

RBMA

No pressure from us here. Thank you for being here with us today, and I think it’s time to give you a bit of a break and prepare you and the rest of the band for the show coming up. A round of applause please for Lonnie Liston Smith…

[Applause]

Lonnie Liston Smith

Thank you…

[Applause]

RBMA

Not forgetting Gilles Peterson, of course…

[Applause]

We’re going to take a ten-minute break and then we’ll be back for the performance of “Expansions,” and more…