Moor Mother

Aaron Gonsher

Please join me in welcoming poet, musician, activist, Moor Mother.

[applause]

We were just listening to “Deadbeat Protest,” from your 2016 LP Fetish Bones. I wanted to start us off with that music, so that people could get a sense of where you’re coming from creatively. What can you tell us about where your head was at when you were first making that track?

Moor Mother

It was simple. I’m part of a DIY scene in Philadelphia, and I was just frustrated after an event, just feeling like no one really cared. It was the start of this performative activism, that now, I feel like has always been, but as far as my life, it’s been really rampant now. A lot of people are just doing activism or whatever, or giving a fuck just for the ’Gram [Instagram]. It’s just pissing me off, in the early... Is this language okay?

Aaron Gonsher

Yeah. Whatever you want.

Moor Mother

It was making me upset. It was pissing me off about the state of things, and it just happens with everything. It happens a lot with poetry. You write something that seems to be about a little small situation you’re dealing with in your scene, but it reflects on this greater picture of what’s happening in the world. And I was just... That’s just really what happened.

Aaron Gonsher

So when was it actually written?

Moor Mother

Maybe 2014 or ’15.

Aaron Gonsher

One of the things I’m really interested in that song, is that you cram so much information into basically a minute and 23 seconds. Did it take a lot of revisions to get to the point where you felt like the message was exactly what you wanted it to be? Or were you rolling with something that was more improvisational from the outset?

Moor Mother

No, the words were already there, the words are the easy part. The hard part is, “Can I sing this right? Can I get a decent recording of me performing this correctly in my bedroom?” So it was a lot of, maybe I took about three takes to get it right, and I still wasn’t really happy. But it was like, the deadline’s coming, I’ve got to get this done. It wasn’t for a while that I listened to the album, and I was like, “Fuck. This is good.” Before I was like, “Ugh, I’m not singing this correctly, I don’t, ugh.” All the shortcomings that come along with your process, I was focusing on a lot of that. But the words, that’s simple.

I love punk, so there’s so many punk songs, especially by Bad Brains, where they just repeat certain things over and over again, but I’m like, “Ugh, I got that attitude. Yes, I feel this.”

Aaron Gonsher

It’s like Bad Brains, or the Minutemen, too. When we’re talking about people who can just fit something into a minute long, but there’s so much information. Did that desire for brevity come from punk originally, too?

Moor Mother

Yeah, to get all the information in a short amount of time, for sure.

Aaron Gonsher

One of the things about “Deadbeat Protest” that is also really interesting, is that I introduced you as a poet and a musician and an activist, but I think all three of those really coalesce in what this song is saying and how it’s being delivered.

Moor Mother

Yeah, I think I get this activism thing, because I just care, you know what I mean? I give a shit. It’s like, “Woah, this is activism.” But it’s like, what are other people doing? I don’t understand why this is so hard. I just had a show recently, and one of the curators was like, “Yeah, your music’s a bit difficult to get into.”

Aaron Gonsher

That was from a curator?

Moor Mother

Yeah. And then I was on stage, and I was just like, “Difficult?” It sounded like a poem, but I was like, “What you mean difficult?” It’s not like I’m doing some fantasy. What do you mean? People are getting shot. It’s happening every day, so why all of the sudden when I come on stage it’s intense and difficult? What are you all watching, what are you all listening to? Why is this some radical thing that’s happening?

Aaron Gonsher

I don’t think activism has to be a dirty word either, but it is quite rare in music.

Moor Mother

I don’t think it’s a dirty word, but right now it’s a buzz word. Anyone can be like, “I participate in self-care, I’m a radical activist.” They take things and squeeze it, and then I’m just hanging with this empty lemon or something. I don’t need a label to care and want to be invested in my community, and want to have some compassion about what people are going through. It’s not like it’s just my one friend. It’s a whole world situation. I try to think about situations that are happening all over the world that no one is talking about... i.e., domestic violence.

Aaron Gonsher

When you talk about your community too, what community did you come from initially, what can you tell us about the community where you grew up?

Moor Mother

I grew up in Aberdeen, a small town in Maryland. There’s a place called Washington Park, where I spent my early high school, everything up until about 11th grade. It was a community where everyone just did for themselves. We couldn’t get food deliveries to come, because everyone was always robbing the pizza man and stuff like this, which was funny to us. It wasn’t like, “This is dangerous.” It was like, “Whatever, it’s the pizza guy. Who cares?” Or it’s a taxi, “Run out of there.” We had our own taxi. We had people that had stores in their closets. We had candy ladies. We had a guy to fix bikes. There was really no need to leave and it was no need to feel like we didn’t have anything. I didn’t grow up like, “Oh, so poor. Oh, drugs.” It was like a utopia, it was beautiful.

People from that community were always in communication, were always saying, “Washington Park for life.” It was a very important thing that I haven’t seen anywhere else, because so many people are being pushed out, so many people are being evicted, so many condos... It’s like the condo revolution. Soon you will all have a condo probably, and that’s just the reality of it, really beautiful.

Aaron Gonsher

Did you take that self-sufficient philosophy into your work when you were starting to enter DIY communities as a musician, as well?

Moor Mother

Yeah. That has influenced my entire work, living in Washington Park. I was just talking about wanting to tap dance, and instead of having the idea of being like, “Mom, can I get tap-dancing shoes?” me and my sister was like, “We’ve got to get all these bottle caps, and we’ve got to put them on our shoes.” Just that thing of being like, if you want to do something, find a way to create it. So when I moved to Philadelphia, I was thinking that I was just gonna study and be this photographer, and not get into this crazy thing, music. But it just found me, and they kicked me out of school, and this is what I do.

Aaron Gonsher

I do want to talk about Philadelphia eventually, but I’m curious to hear what the musical diet was like in your actual household, because I know your father was in a couple of choirs at the church.

Moor Mother

Yeah, very what you would call spooky gospel music. Where you’re like, “Wow, are now ghosts entering the room?” Not like the R&B gospel, which is popular now, because you have so many R&B musicians that are making gospel records. For instance like a Mary Mary – I don’t know if anyone listens to gospel here, but it’s very R&B from where it came from of being spirituals and ways of singing prayer, to gather around each other. It’s all about healing. So yeah, a lot of gospel, a lot of R&B, but not the R&B that you folks know. Not like Destiny’s Child and stuff like that. R&B like Patti LaBelle and Stephanie Mills and James Brown, stuff like that. Real crunchy and dirty.

Aaron Gonsher

When did punk enter the picture though, if you’re going from gospel like Mahalia Jackson and James Brown, then you’re getting into Bad Brains eventually. How did that go down?

Moor Mother

I was also big into hip-hop, Public Enemy, MC Lyte, a lot of stuff like that. Then hip-hop changed to being a lot more dance-y, like MC Hammer and C+C Music Factory, and all of this stuff, which is cool, I’m not against that, but I still had this hunger for this type of hip-hop that was speaking about the stuff that I was seeing in my neighborhood and growing up. So I just searched, I just was searching, asking kids in school, “What are you listening to?” Then I found Bob Marley, then I was like, “Woah, this is really different, this is kind of punk.” From Bob Marley, I found punk. Stuff like early Nirvana. Operation Ivy, I loved that group when I was starting out in punk, and just stuff about communities coming together, dealing with racism, stuff like that, kind of punk.

Aaron Gonsher

Did it feel like this omnivorous music taste was more the norm where you grew up, or were people slotting into very specific areas?

Moor Mother

No one was listening to this in my neighborhood, and I bought a pair of those JNCO’s, you know those pants, this is Berlin, I’m sure everyone has a pair on right now or something. [laughs] Probably not. I remember the kids being like, “What are those pants, Camae? You from Washington Park.” But that helped me, being from this neighborhood, because I was already cool, so I didn’t have to really do anything. My brothers and sisters were all cool. They were so cool. I had that thing where I could do this, people would be like, “It’s okay, you’re just going through a phase, you’ll be back.” But not in a way of disowning me, because I’m from Washington Park. You can’t. There’s no getting rid of me in this kind of way. It’s just like, “OK, you’re doing your thing, you’ll come back around.”

But now people see me, and they’re like, “You were always weird, I’m glad you stuck to it. I’m glad you’re doing your thing.” That’s cool.

Aaron Gonsher

Could we play video number four, please?

(video: clip from Fight the Power... Live! /applause)

That was a video from the Fight the Power... Live! VHS from 1989.

Moor Mother

I’ve got to get that VHS.

Aaron Gonsher

Were you at that tour?

Moor Mother

I went to that tour. That changed my world. When Terminator X was like, “Put up your fists” – I’m from Maryland, so I went to Baltimore to see concerts, and oh my goodness, I’ve never seen anything like that. It was all these black people with their fists up, and my little fist [was up]. I was just like, “Oh.”

Aaron Gonsher

How old were you then, if it’s a little fist?

Moor Mother

I don’t know, but I know my little fist, it was little. It was little, but it was strong. I’ve never been that young and felt so strong in my life.

Aaron Gonsher

How important were Public Enemy to you, not just from that experience, but in general musically, lyrically, politically to what you’re doing today?

Moor Mother

Everything. Just being... to tell the truth in this way. They had this line, where they were like, “Fuck Elvis.” I’m coming from Washington Park, I hated Elvis. I hated anyone like Elvis. And John Wayne, I hated cowboys. So I’m like, “Ugh, this is the truth, this is allowing me to walk around with a crown on my head.” Just this power, to be motivated, to be okay no matter what someone from the outside is telling you that you’re lacking or you’re living in some type of poverty or drug-infested area. You know nothing about us, it’s just confidence.

Aaron Gonsher

There was also a quote in that video, where he says, “Armageddon has been in effect.” I feel like that connects really strongly to Sun Ra, “It’s after the end of the world, don’t you know that yet?” These are two people amongst very many others whose philosophies and music would come to be grouped under Afrofuturists, Afrofuturism. Was this sense of Afrofuturism already seeping into your awareness early on in this music?

Moor Mother

That’s more of an academic framing, but the idea that is Afrofuturism has already been. So Public Enemy is not a start of anything, they’re all coming from this history that is so rich. Whether you want to call it African-American classical music, or black classical music, this is all a part of a history. That’s why you see Flavor Flav bugging out, because Chaka Khan is right there. We just played Pitchfork Fest with Irreversible Entanglements, and Chaka Khan was on there, and we were on the side stage freaking out. Because there’s a history, Mahalia Jackson, all of these people, you have to study this to understand the richness of what you’re doing. You’re not alone, so many people have been speaking this idea.

When you think about Afrofuturism and they talk about Sun Ra, as if the Dogon tribe never existed, or these places, these indigenous ideas of the future, never existed. They called Galileo or whoever is the first astronomer? That’s crap. What? The Ferryman is the first astronomer, but you’ve got to do the history to understand how rich the information is that’s been provided for you.

Aaron Gonsher

Personally, when did you start becoming more aware of that history in the way you just...

Moor Mother

Afrofuturism? When I moved to Philadelphia – I’m not good with years – I did this event, Wine + Spirit + Mind, that the AfroFuturist Affair put on, this organization in Philadelphia. My partner, Rasheedah Phillips organized [it], and [I] performed at that and then started learning more. There’s a charity ball, the AfroFuturist Affair Costume and Charity Ball, performed that. I was already a curator in Philly, and I had been tapping these artists to perform that were under the umbrella of Afrofuturism, but they didn’t know it. It was just what they were making.

Aaron Gonsher

I feel like we skipped some time there. How did you end up in Philly in the first place?

Moor Mother

I went to school to study photography at the Art Institute.

Aaron Gonsher

Why photography?

Moor Mother

Good question. When high school’s over, then everyone’s going to college, I was like, “Oh, I better get out of here.” What could I do? I like Gordon Parks, I like photography, so let me try that out. Not like I was a photographer before. I don’t even have many baby pictures. No one was really taking pictures when I was young. I just thought it was beautiful to document what was going on in communities.

Aaron Gonsher

At the time that you moved to Philadelphia, you wouldn’t have considered yourself a musician already at that point?

Moor Mother

A rapper, I would say I’m a rapper. And that’s what happened at the Art Institute. There was a party and there was a cipher, and there was a young woman that got in the cipher. And I was like, “Well then I got to get in here.” Then, that’s where I changed my life pretty much. Got in the cipher, she was like, “That’s good.” I was like, “You’re cool.” Then we just started meeting up in the dorms, rapping over A Tribe Called Quest albums. Then being like, “Hey let’s do this.” Then I was like, “I really like punk too, let me turn you on to this.” Then we were just this hip-hop duo called the Docs, then to Paradocs. But there was some German band called the Paradox, and we were so pissed, we were like, “Germans, why do they get this name?” Because we thought we created it, and no one else had it. Then slowly but surely, we got a band. Then that was the Mighty Paradocs.

Aaron Gonsher

How aware had you been of Philadelphia’s musical legacy, at the point when you’d arrived? People like Billie Holiday born in Philadelphia, people like Sun Ra living there for his entire life.

Moor Mother

I didn’t know anything about Sun Ra yet, but I knew Patti LaBelle, and I knew the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Will Smith and all of that, DJ Jazzy Jeff. Hip-hop in that way, but I didn’t know exactly what it was like musically. That’s why when I came there, I was like, “I’m just gonna be a school kid.” But then, of course, of course I would come to Philadelphia and organize like I did, because the foundation was there. Of Sun Ra playing open in the parks, and stuff like that.

Aaron Gonsher

At what point did you become more aware of the history of activism in Philadelphia as well, and how was integrating with music, and how might you have taken that into the things that you ended up doing there?

Moor Mother

The first thing that I got into in Philadelphia was gathered around this bombing that happened to the MOVE Organization in Philadelphia. It happened in the ’80s, but when I got there, there were nine members in prison. It was a lot of organizing around awareness of that, and helping to release these people that were locked up. One of the more popular persons that people know in the world is Mumia [Abu-Jamal].

Aaron Gonsher

Just for reference, there were nine people in prison for a cop who had gotten shot, but he got shot by one bullet, and they had terms of 100 years each.

Moor Mother

And the police in Philadelphia dropped a bomb on their house, so this is the first time that people have seen on the news the police force dropping a bomb. Usually that’s saved for the military, so it was really crazy. There’s actually a really good documentary, and the guy’s name, the mayor was Rizzo, and we have a statue of him in Philadelphia that people put panties on every so often. That’s about as far as we got. I don’t understand why it hasn’t been pushed over or something. I forget...

Aaron Gonsher

When you first moved there, were you already aware of what had been happening with organizations like MOVE? How did that enter your consciousness in the city itself?

Moor Mother

They took it to the street. So as a kid, as a musician, I was able to see this and be like, “That’s fucked. What can I do? What can I participate in?” And also, we had this reptilian in office, Bush. So that was like heavy protests in Philly. Of course I’m going to be there. It was not even a discussion, no discussion. You see it, you have some sort of emotional response to it, and you make a decision, then you get involved. That was, to me, the end of the golden era from where I’m from, of a protest, because that was almost like we were coming out for war. It wasn’t like we were just walking around with signs and having little chants. No, we had gas masks on, we covered our faces. We were there to start some trouble, to aggravate the system.

Aaron Gonsher

Was the majority of Philadelphia’s musical community as active in what you’re talking about, or did it feel like it was confined to a very particular group of people doing a particular thing?

Moor Mother

Yeah, because the only people I knew were the college kids. So we were all MCs. We wouldn’t walk around. We could say we rapped and we were participating in ciphers, but we wasn’t like, “We’re musicians, we’re part of a scene.” We were just trying to build ourselves up to figure out what can we even do as so-called rappers and writers. It was all early works in progress. It wasn’t really groups that I can name that were involved in the protest that I know. When I came, the Roots were the band, the Roots were the biggest thing from Philadelphia. So they had an event called Black Lily, that’s where Jill Scott and Floetry and Musiq Soulchild, all of these people started.

We would sneak in to get in on the open mic, and that was the first time I performed in Philadelphia. My song was, “Nowadays It’s All About The Pussy.” I did that at this neo-soul club, they were like, “What is, wow? Nowadays it’s all about the pussy.” They were just like, “You shook something up, that was really cool.” I just kept going back and doing whatever I could, just to be a part of it. But I wasn’t in the door, I wasn’t that cool or known or popular to try to collaborate with the Roots or anyone. I was just a dirty kid that could rap.

Aaron Gonsher

But you did have your own event series at one point, right?

Moor Mother

Yeah. Once I got the band, all of our stuff was pretty political, we couldn’t find venues for that, because neo-soul was what was happening in Philly. So I just started an event called, it was first called the Mash-Up, then that venue closed, then we called it Rockers. And I did that for ten years every Wednesday.

Aaron Gonsher

Every week?

Moor Mother

Yeah. Then it went to a monthly. Then Rockers was the coolest scene. It was like they had the underground punk scene, but we were underground from that, so it was like... It was beautiful.

Aaron Gonsher

How exhausted were you after ten years of doing a weekly party?

Moor Mother

I mean, you hear some of the songs. Well, just because there’s two ways to do things. You can do things like the Penn University/Donald Trump model, which is you have an idea, you create a business, you get money. My way was just like, “We need a place to play. Oh, these other groups need a place to play. Let’s just do it.” I never really made any money or even thought about that to the end. I’m like, “Damn. I probably could have had some money,” you know what I mean? Or got paid from this. I did all of this, and I have nothing material wise. But, what I have actually is all of these musicians that were playing Rockers are now amazing, and touring the world, and really had a chance to develop their voice just like I was using it to develop my own voice, you know? It was kind of like that.

Aaron Gonsher

How did you find your voice developing over that time? A lot can happen in ten years.

Moor Mother

Yeah, when I was doing the Black Lily, I would just rap like this. Saying a lot of stuff, but I couldn’t move outside of that, because I probably would be trembling. It went from that to stage diving. Just getting more free, basically. Free.

Aaron Gonsher

Could we play video number five, please?

(video: The Mighy Paradocs live)

That was the Mighty Paradocs, then, that you were talking about?

Moor Mother

Yeah.

Aaron Gonsher

Another song that’s maybe less than a minute, but with a lot of information crammed into it.

Moor Mother

Yeah. I mean, there was a so-called natural disaster, which was called Hurricane Katrina. The only relief, when I was writing this... I was like, “The only relief was a 40 OZ of hurricane,” you know? No other relief had came to aid these people after this so-called natural disaster.

Aaron Gonsher

There were, I think, five people in that band?

Moor Mother

Yeah, five people.

Aaron Gonsher

You were also in another band, Girls Dressed As Girls.

Moor Mother

Yeah. That came a little later.

Aaron Gonsher

When did you start to think that there were things you wanted to explore as a solo artist that you had to do separately from what you were getting out of these groups?

Moor Mother

Well, because it was five people, we had to decide a time to meet, talk about the songs, go over all of this stuff, and I was just like, “In the meantime, I want to make music.” So, I just figured to save up to get this iPad, so I can work alone. I was just thinking of trying to make beats like J Dilla. That was just like, “I should make some beats,” But they were not like J Dilla, even though I was like, “This one kind of sounds like something J Dilla would do.” I think the inspiration came with the soul samples that he would use. That like what I could relate to. I’m into hip-hop now, into punk, but there was so many of these soul and blues artists that inspired me, so I wanted to tap into the memory and make an archive of all of this stuff that I love that had really nothing to do with... like, I can’t sample Whitney Houston while we’re playing the Mighty Paradocs. You know what I mean? Or, just things that I just... little loops, things that I loved, so I just went crazy and made maybe two or three beats a day. Then it got to be a lot of them, you know?

Aaron Gonsher

Let’s listen to one of them. This is “Programma” from Sleep Study.

Moor Mother

Well, “Programma” came a bit later.

Aaron Gonsher

Bit later. But still made on an iPad?

Moor Mother

Yes.

Aaron Gonsher

Alright.

Moor Mother

And, in bed, and on earplugs.

Aaron Gonsher

Let’s play it, and we can talk a little bit more about the iPad, because I am curious about that. This is “Programma” from Sleep Study One & Two.

(music: Moor Mother – “Programma” / applause)

Aaron Gonsher

That was “Programma” for Sleep Study One & Two. The thing I’m really interested in about the iPad is that I feel like when you’re learning how to play guitar, bass or drums, people are always going to have some other artist that they’ll reference, of like if you’re learning guitar, you have to go check out this person, or bass, you have to go check out this person. But an iPad, there’s not really something that you have to measure yourself against. Did it feel more free for that reason? I mean, maybe King Britt in Philadelphia uses an iPad.

Moor Mother

Well, I mean, I never check for people. The people that I like, I can’t do. I like Aretha Franklin. I can’t do Aretha Franklin, Alice Coltrane. I’m checking for things that I can’t do, but what’s interesting about Sleep Study is when I started getting into these different little idea of... Sleep Study is basically making music in bed while everyone sleeps and not waking up anyone. You make the beat, you make the words, you do it all right there. That’s just a fun little thing for me, I guess. I don’t know how that is even an example for anyone to be like, “OK, let me make some music in the flat, see if I can not wake anyone,” but still bring this passion and still be aggressive in this way.

After I had made all these hundreds and hundreds of beats, I was like, “What little quirky things can I do to push myself in difficult situations with the iPad?”

Aaron Gonsher

What were some of the other ones?

Moor Mother

So long ago. What was another one? That’s terrible. I would have to look at my little SoundCloud from back in the day. Just limitations outside, walking to work. What albums can you make? What’s that sound like making a couple of songs on your way to work with the cars and everything’s going on? Can you actually rap out loud? All of these different kind of things, because every time I would make something on the iPad, I would learn something. How that one stops, for a while, I didn’t even understand how to fade out, so it was just all these abrupt like, “It’s over. Take the drum. Take the drum,” you know? Kind of like an MPC, just the drum out. Yeah, it was all really organic. Like I said, the first idea was to try to make some stuff like J Dilla. Once I realized that was not going to happen, [I] just accepted whatever I was making, you know?

Aaron Gonsher

When you’re making a song like that, am I right in assuming it starts as a poem, and then you’re translating it into this soundscape sonic world?

Moor Mother

Yeah. And sometimes I have the beat, and then I’m like ... Like the first Sleep Study, it’s just me making up stuff, like what you call a freestyle, which then I learned is really difficult, because I couldn’t do it live. I was recording all this stuff, but I didn’t understand how to perform it live, so my live show was totally different of songs that I could do live. That’s the first record, Fetish Bones. I was playing like two different worlds, sonically.

Aaron Gonsher

Talking about Fetish Bones a bit... There’s so many different samples and references throughout that record, and we’ll play some music from it soon. I was curious to hear what your approach is when you’re sampling. What sort of philosophical weight might need to be a part of something you’re sampling in addition to the actual sonic element of it?

Moor Mother

It’s all stuff for archive. It’s all stuff that’s been haunting me. Stuff that I was scared of as a kid that now I can’t get enough of, like Mahalia Jackson. When I was a kid, I was like, “I better not mess up around whenever Mahalia Jackson songs are on.” Just like, “This is so intense to me.” Yeah. It’s more of stuff that reminds me of my family growing up. I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit about this later, but to me, music’s a form of sound, is a form of time travel. So, of me being able to tap into all of this stuff that I grew up with, all these sounds that I have fallen in love with, and to be able to always access that. I can always go back to some samples or something that is part of me growing up, part of my life.

Aaron Gonsher

Let’s listen to something from Fetish Bones, another thing.

Moor Mother

OK.

Aaron Gonsher

This is “Creation Myth” from Fetish Bones in 2016.

(music: Moor Mother – “Creation Myth” / applause)

That was “Creation Myth” from Fetish Bones. There’s a lot going on there, but I’m curious to hear you describe this track and what you were trying to accomplish with it sonically and narratively.

Moor Mother

Well, it all came together not as a plan. I made the soundscape because I was thinking of this idea of sound from the beginning of the universe being created. I said, “OK, what does it start with?” The soundscape was its separate thing. Then I had wrote a poem... I try to be a part of this... I’m a part of the collective now. But there’s a collective called Metropolarity in Philadelphia. They do like a sci-fi zine. I had submitted a poem, and it didn’t make it. Even though they were my friends, they were like, “It wasn’t good enough.” So, I wrote another piece, and this was the piece and they accepted it. I really liked it, so I’m making the album and I’m like, “OK, I’ma put this on there. I’ll just read this poem on top of it.” The little song in the beginning was how I would set... I would do that a cappella to start my shows. I’m actually going to do it at my next show. I kind of forgot about doing that. Yeah, so it all came together.

Even listening to the recording, I hear this one word I made a mistake on. It’s pilgrim, and I was like, “Pilgrum,” or whatever. I was like, “Oh, I don’t got no ...” It’s like the deadline’s coming. I was just, “Okay, I’m satisfied with it as much as I can be,” on an honest level of speaking about this. So, it kind of just came together of me just putting pieces together, because that’s basically how the album came together was like, “OK, this is what I do for my live set. What is good enough to make it on this vinyl record and that I can perform?” Because I’m also recording myself for the first time right after I bought studio equipment for the first time to set it up. It’s not like I’m... It’s just like, “Buy the equipment. This is what I think I need. Set it up. OK, here’s the mic. Do it,” you know? It was all experimental in its creation.

That’s just how, like I spoke about earlier, how poetry works. You have this idea in your head, and it continues to reflect. But with the poem, I wanted to write about race riots throughout time in America, so that’s what I basically did. I start from... We just heard the song, and I’m like, “What’s the first line?” Something about, “1866, and I bled through the summer being slaughtered by whites.” What I’m talking about, 1866 to 1919 is the... What do they call it? The Blood Summer, basically, of all of these riots happening. It was like this Blood Summer, being bled through the summer, because there was so many killings and mass killings of black people in America. That’s why they call it Blood Summer, Red Summer. That’s they I put that there. Then I talk about everywhere from Oakland, to Crown Heights, to Jasper, Texas. It’s really mainly due to the research. The research is the most important thing with that poem.

Aaron Gonsher

The narrator, like you said, is moving through all these different timelines. That was something that you mentioned earlier about your work with Rasheedah and collapsing these different timelines. Can you talk a little about, first of all, who Rasheedah is – you mentioned her in brief – and what the Black Quantum Futurism philosophy that you two practice is, and how it manifests in your work?

Moor Mother

OK. Like I said, I did this event called Rockers in Philadelphia. It really started to be a hub for creative weirdos, creative geniuses, that would start to come. Rasheedah would come to see my band, the Mighty Paradocs. We became friends. Rasheedah was working with this thing called the Afrofuturist Affair and asked me to perform, but also to help curate some artists, because I had already been working with such rich artists in Philadelphia there were outside the box. We started in that way.

Then Rasheedah Phillips wrote a book of time travel short stories and asked me to make a soundtrack for it. That was pretty much the first project that we did together. It was really successful, so we just continued to work together. Then Rasheedah wrote a theory, which is Black Quantum Futurism. I created all the sound work, and I also wrote essays for it and poetry for it. We created some zines. We have Sun Ra zines. We have zines on non-locality. We have zines and ritual causality. Then that worked to the book, which is Black Quantum Futurism: Theory & Practice (Volume 1). The second book is From the Congo to the Carolinas, really thinking about temporality on a slave ship, on the plantation. Yeah, it’s really powerful stuff.

It definitely comes out of Afrofuturism, but it’s this idea of reinventing technology and redefining who gets to speak about what. Rasheedah Phillips is a practicing attorney in Philadelphia. I was a coach of sports. So, it’s like, “Are we allowed to think about temporality? Are we allowed to think about our future? Are we allowed to participate in anything we want? Physics, mathematics. Do we actually need to have these degrees?” Redefining what technology is, you know?

Aaron Gonsher

What is technology?

Moor Mother

Technology is anything you want it to be. I always speak about liberation technology being Alice Coltrane playing the sitar. Just very natural things that they tell us is not enough. Of technology being like these degrees from these universities, and these computers, and all of this stuff that’s not accessible. But, what we find out, once you do the work and study history, Apple or Microsoft didn’t invent the first computer. Or, these kind of things or ideas of what the computer was, or ideas of travel.

It kind of speaks a lot to this idea of the savage and the civilized. You know, “Well, our boat looks like this.” Like, “You couldn’t have a boat. You were savage...” Understanding the history of people, especially from the African continent... We’re explorers. They traveled the world. It’s not like we had to wait for some English man to come with a boat to be like, “Oh, we’re seeing another...” You know what I mean? It’s just like this other idea of who is defining what is technology, and who’s holding the power behind that?

Aaron Gonsher

In history, not just moving forward inexorably, but moving backwards and jumping around?

Moor Mother

Yeah. It’s moving forward because of propaganda. I mean, you would think everything... In America, you would think that your life started from coming off of a so-called slave ship, or the time of Jesus, or anything that they put out as propaganda for us to believe where we came from.

Aaron Gonsher

How does this manifest in your personal musical work in addition to that with Rasheedah? Because, music is something that is quite often locked into this linear timeline, not just when you’re playing something. You strum a guitar, it makes a sound. You press a key, it makes a sound. That’s linear. Then songs are also... Most often, there’s a beginning, there’s a middle, and an end. It’s all very nice and tidy. How does the work that you do and the work with Rasheedah subvert that?

Moor Mother

That’s propaganda as a start, a middle and a end. That’s what’s driving everyone to be like, “We got to kill each other or screw each other over, because there’s going to be this ball of fire from the sky if we don’t have our picket fence and our house by this time, if we’re not married by this time.” All of that is bullshit. Things come around. How can I make a song without paying respect to who came before me? I’m not walking around like, “I’m the first one to talk about a protest.” Are you crazy? No. There’s so many people that laid down this foundation. How could I forget? How could I act like I’m starting something new or something, you know? That’s just how some people grow up. I didn’t grow up in that way to cut off what came before me. I naturally was moving in more of a circle as far as my ideas of time. That’s just my music. Everything is the now, you know what I mean? So many things are happening and returning.

Aaron Gonsher

I think someone else who might have been traveling that same circle was Octavia Butler, the writer. I’d like to play something from a release you did with Rasheedah that also uses the words of Octavia Butler. This is “The Autonomy of Shori.” Do you want to introduce it, or do you want to talk about afterwards?

Moor Mother

I’ve made so much music. I would have to hear it.

Aaron Gonsher

Let’s listen to it then.

Moor Mother

I mean, I made it. I’m definitely sure I made it, but I’m like...

[audience laughter]

Aaron Gonsher

OK, this is “The Autonomy of Shori.”

(music: Moor Mother – “The Autonomy of Shori” / applause)

Aaron Gonsher

That was “The Autonomy of Shori.” Did it jog your memory a bit?

Moor Mother

Oh, yeah.

Aaron Gonsher

What can you tell us about that release and why Octavia Butler is credited on it, as well?

Moor Mother

Well, because Rasheedah and I were reading from one of Octavia Butler’s books. We have every one of them.

Aaron Gonsher

This is Fledgling?

Moor Mother

Yes. That was kind of really random how it came. I had this little thing I was singing. Then I was like, “Oh, it’d be cool for you to read some of this. Let’s read some together like a little conversation behind it.” Yeah. Whenever I listen to that, I’m like, “Is that me reading? Is that you reading?” It was really natural how it came. Then I got the Pharoah sample at the end, which I put on there because that track in particular was one of those archival tracks that I was speaking about earlier that just makes me feel good and has all these sounds that hits all the triggers within me. I’m like [hums like music is playing], which y’all don’t know, because you don’t know all the samples. It was more like archival, which further led to us making the full project sampling different audio books of Octavia Butler and putting little soundscapes behind them.

Octavia, the most important thing for me that I get from... Well, two things. The first book I read as a serious reader was Kindred. I recommend everyone should read this book by Octavia Butler. Then the idea of visualizing and writing down what you want for your life and how powerful that can be. Octavia Butler, the early stages of her career, wrote about she wants to be one of the great novelists of the world and all of this. All of this stuff came true for her, so I actually did one, also... I do it all the time, but I did one before Fetish Bones came out. Everything that I wrote down came true, besides one thing. It’s just this motivation to be like, “Whatever you see and you dream about, you can have these things.”

Aaron Gonsher

Could that one thing still come true, though?

Moor Mother

I mean, it actually did come true, but I just couldn’t go at the time. It was just to play anywhere on the continent of Africa, basically. It was like, anywhere. I was invited to go to Sierra Leone to work on some music with an artist, but my schedule was so crazy that I couldn’t make it. But, I know that it’s coming, so I don’t even sweat it.

Aaron Gonsher

You mentioned your schedule there. You must be on the road 150 days a year now. How do you stay creative during that time? How do you allow yourself to stay creative without thinking, “I need to be productive creative”?

Moor Mother

It’s so hard. It’s crazy hard. I didn’t understand the idea of touring and taking some time off, because as a musician, that’s my job. If I want some money, I do a show. It’s hard. I’m supposed to be finishing my third solo album now, and I’m stressed about it. There’s no other way to look at it but saying, “I’m stressed about it,” because I only have certain amount of times to go home. I’m building up laundry from touring. I got a cat, you know? It’s so much. But, regardless, it’s going to get done. But I want to do like three albums at once, so how am I going to do that? I’m also a visual artist, so I do gallery shows. I’m also writing a play that’s going to go up in Philadelphia next year in June. I do workshops. I do a lot of different things. I’m in five groups, or something.

Aaron Gonsher

I was going ask if collaboration and all of your collaborations make this easier or harder. I mean, you had, just this year released with DJ Haram, 700 Bliss, Irreversible Entanglements. You’ve played with The Bug. You’re playing with...

Moor Mother

Yeah, Zonal. I got to do that stuff.

Aaron Gonsher

You’re playing with Roscoe Mitchell.

Moor Mother

Yeah.

Aaron Gonsher

What do you get out of collaboration that makes you want to keep entering into these situations? Not that it’s a negative thing, but I mean, there must be something that makes it really valuable to you, that you’re still chasing.

Moor Mother

I think I’m obsessed with it, because even I’ve said, “I can’t do any more collaborations. I got to do my own thing.” Just two weeks ago, I’m like... There’s a rapper from New York named Elucid. I’m like, “We got to do an album.” So, we’re going to do am album that’s going to come out... What’s the other project? Oh, this is kind of top secret, but this artist that I really admire, I’ve got to do something with him. That’s added –

Aaron Gonsher

They’re going to remain top secret?

Moor Mother

Yeah, because it has to happen first. Now, that’s like seven.

Aaron Gonsher

What do you think makes for a good collaboration, separate from the actual musical result? What are traits that you look for in collaborators that might be different from what you hear on the surface of their music?

Moor Mother

It’s all been organic. All the collaboration have been organic besides these last two. Well, even that’s been organic. Well, the last artist in particular, his music just speaks to me in a whole different level, in a level of reminding me of home. So, it’s like I got to do a project with him. But, everything is natural. With 700 Bliss or with Irreversible, we got together to do an event on police brutality. It wasn’t like this was going to be a collaboration. Then they were like, “Hey, let’s go into the studio for like six hours and see what happens.” I was just reading from my book, and then all of a sudden, it’s an album.

Then after the recording, I said... and, this was right before Fetish Bones came out. I was like, “All I want to do is play a jazz festival in Spain. That’s all I want to do from this project.” You know, like, “What? Why was that my goal?” But that was my goal. Then turns out I had played in Spain like five times before Irreversible even came out, so it was just like, “This is natural. We’re all friends. Of course, we’re going to get together and do something.” Kind of like how doctors are like, “Hold this heart while I cut this brain out,” or whatever. It’s just like we’re collaborating –

Aaron Gonsher

I’ve totally been in that situation.

Moor Mother

Yeah. It’s like we’re collaborating on this body, but it’s kind of like we’re all in the hospital. We’re bound to cut something open together, kind of thing.

Aaron Gonsher

There are a lot of people who have been collaborating with each other over the last week and will continue to do so in the future.

Moor Mother

Oh, that’s cool.

Aaron Gonsher

Do you have recommendations for how to sustain a healthy collaboration, how to make sure everyone’s voice is getting heard, everyone is satisfied? Like you said, you have seven. Probably more to come.

Moor Mother

Yeah. I think it’s about trying to get to know each other. I know it’s like a short time or so many weeks, but it’s like when you have an understanding of what someone else likes and is coming from with their passions or desires, and you’re like... Like 700 Bliss, for instance. I’m like, “Well, I know you like this kind of sound. Let’s put that in there. Then I have this idea about this sound. Let’s put that in there. What do you think’s...” Just trying to put each other into the music versus pulling ideas from the sky or however other people do. It’s just like, “What are you into? Let’s honestly include our interests in this, so we’re all being heard.”

I’m very much an idea man. I have a lot of ideas. That’s an issue for me, because I’m like, “Oh, you’re a tuba player. Come here. Guess what we could do?” You know what I mean? Just going through ideas and trying things out, but definitely not putting one part of someone’s story or feeling like my story is more important than what you would have to say. It has to be like a communication and also music styles that you all like to be added in there. If you’re just like, “I like hip-hop and jazz, and I like blues and folk,” all of that should be represented in the music.

Aaron Gonsher

You’ve mentioned them a couple times, and I think it’s important for us to actually talk a little bit more about Irreversible Entanglements. The group came together in event against police brutality. Who are the people in Irreversible Entanglements, and what sort of creative itch is that particular group scratching?

Moor Mother

We’re all in the tradition. Keir [Neuringer] is on sax. Luke Stewart’s on bass. Tcheser [Holmes] is on drums. Aquiles [Navarro] is on trumpet. Then I’m the poet. We all study music, so it’s really easy. We don’t have to sit around and be like... I mean, of course, there’s so many albums. There’s like, “Hey, check out this John Coltrane album or this recording.” We do that a lot, but everyone has listened to so much stuff. I find myself really learning more, because they all went to school for music. Yeah, I’m lucky in that way. They know their history. They know where this music came from. We’re not coming into any place like, “This is our brand of jazz,” or anything. No, we’re playing improv. We’re playing hard from the information that we’ve done the research on, so it’s kind of like we’re very well informed kind of style.

Aaron Gonsher

I don’t think you need to go to music school to have stuff to share with musicians, though.

Moor Mother

Well, I mean, these cats know a lot of stuff that I missed out on, straight up. School’s cool. This kind of camp, all of this stuff is cool, because you’re never done learning. There’s so much stuff that I want to learn, like every instrument. Where do you go to learn that? My ears are always open. I’m always hungry to exchange information, but by no means do I feel like I got to go to some person who’s a celebrity or whatever. I see everyone as having information that could be added to something, you know?

Aaron Gonsher

What information do you think you have? Because, all these people are obviously wanting to work with you. There’s clearly something there.

Moor Mother

Oh, yeah. By no means am I thinking that I’m not good. I’m a fucking great poet. I’m really good with words, because I’ve lived this particular kind of just upbringing that most people in this time that I meet have not experienced. A lot of people are living this isolated existence where they’re so far from their culture or from people that look like them. So, they’re like, “Oh,” really excited when they get a chance to be around something that’s related to their history. I grew up around that. I have it all in my head and my heart. So it’s really easy for me to pull from all of this stuff that’s reflected throughout the world.

Aaron Gonsher

Well, let’s listen to some of Irreversible Entanglements-

Moor Mother

OK, cool.

Aaron Gonsher

This is an excerpt of “Fireworks.”

(music: Irreversible Entanglements – “Fireworks” / applause)

That was “Fireworks.” It was just an excerpt. If you haven’t heard the entire album, it’s hugely recommended. We’ve talked a lot in this lecture about time, and collapsing timelines, and your time in different places. I wanted to end by asking you, what do you think makes music timeless?

Moor Mother

I think what makes music timeless, I guess, would be what else is it being used for? That’s why I feel like jazz, and blues, and gospel are so important to me, because they were not just used for you to tap your foot... or, the artists that I like. There are some jazz musicians that just want you to tap your foot. But it was not just used as that. It was used as a form of liberation. That’s why I called jazz, and gospel and blues liberation technologies, because they’re not just for the tapping... It’s not just for that. It’s way more.

Gospel also was a form of secret coding. It was also a form of respecting the dead or a way to be with someone that’s sick. It’s just like all of these different ways that this sound was used to heal or transport. That’s what I’m interested in, a way to make music that can also be healing towards me every time I listen to it or that can send me back to a time with my father that has passed away. It’s seeing music and sound as an original form, of technology.

Aaron Gonsher

I think that’s a good place to end.

Moor Mother

Alright, cool.

Aaron Gonsher

Thank you for joining us today.

Moor Mother

Thank you.

[applause]

Aaron Gonsher

There is going to be a microphone roaming around this room if any participants have questions for Camae. Did we cover everything?

Audience Member

Hello. I’m OG Lullabies. I’m from Washington, D.C.

Moor Mother

Oh, awesome. We’re from the same state.

Audience Member

We are. This isn’t a question. This is just me... I psychically knew we would meet one day.

Moor Mother

What?

Audience Member

Yes. Because, someone randomly sent me a link on Instagram. People are always sending me links, but anyway. I just want to say thank you, because when I stumbled upon you, it gave me clarity in my own philosophies and spirituality and how to connect that in my music, and my voice, and how to respect the silence of my politics, and also respect when I feel like elaborating or being particularly vocal about how I feel in America as a black woman producer and instrumentalist. So, just infinite thanks. Thank you so much.

Moor Mother

Thank you. Congratulations on being selected to be one of these artists to be a part of this project. That’s really cool.

Audience Member

Yes.

Moor Mother

What’s your artist name?

Audience Member

I’m OG Lullabies. It means Zero Gravity Lullabies.

Moor Mother

Cool. Do we follow each other?

Audience Member

No, no, but we –

Moor Mother

Send me a message. I want to check you out.

Audience Member

You did Always On with Moogfest, and I did it too. I was like, “We’re like almost there.” Because, I knew that it would connect all the way eventually. Also, King Britt has been reaching out and give me lots of awesome advice.

Moor Mother

Oh, that’s cool.

Audience Member

He’s also the triangle that’s going to be in the [unintelligible] when we... you know.

Moor Mother

OK.

Audience Member

OK.

Moor Mother

Cool. Well, looking forward to meeting you again and chilling.

Audience Member

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.

Aaron Gonsher

Any other questions? If there are no others... Or, if you’re too shy to ask it now, then maybe come up to Camae afterwards. Thank you.

Moor Mother

Also, shout out to Sneaks.

[applause]

They’re incredible artists. I’m so happy that they’re here. Get to know them. If you don’t, you’re going to be lamer. That can happen at these things, OK? So, it’s an opportunity, but you can leave lamer. Alright?

Aaron Gonsher

Alright. Let’s get another round of applause for Moor Mother. Thank you.

[applause]