Mtume

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

All right. Welcome to the lecture today. We’re very excited to have our guest. He’s worn many hats over his very storied career, be it as a musician, band leader, producer, songwriter, composer and activist. Won’t you please welcome Mr. James Mtume.

Mtume

[applause] Thank you very much.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Thanks so much for being here today.

Mtume

Thank you for inviting me. I mean, this is really a pleasure and an honor to be able to address the participants, and it’s good to see you again.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It’s great to see you as well. I mentioned you’ve worn many hats over your career. I wonder if you, of all those different roles, do you view yourself as any one more so than the others?

Mtume

No, no, no. Actually, I don’t. That’s a great question. If you’d have asked me which one did I get the most out of, or felt the most joy from, it would be composing for television and film because you’re alone, you’re in the basement and you’ve got to create the backdrop of a scene.

The trick in scoring is to never let the music get in the way of a dialogue, so it becomes more of a wallpaper, or, in that case, sound paper. When I had the opportunity to do an urban show called New York Undercover, to compose for that gave me great joy because it was a chance for me to put an urban sound on television that had never been done like that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You had done film scoring as well for motion pictures?

Mtume

Yes, yes, sir.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Well, I want to sort of play one track, sort of, not randomly, but picked from within your career just to sort of reset our ears as we settle into this. Some of you may be familiar with this, but from the band which bears your name –

Mtume

Which band?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

The band that bears your name. Mtume.

Mtume

Okay. [laughs] I’ve been in a few.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

This one was a favorite of a DJ some of you guys might have heard of named Larry Levan and it goes like this.

(music: Mtume – “So You Wanna Be a Star” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Okay. So what was that we just listened to, a little piece of?

Mtume

Wow. You took me back with that. I think that was the second Mtume band album. I can’t mention that band or that track without giving homage to who I feel is one of the great, great female voices in music, Tawatha Agee, who’s our lead singer. I was part dealing with a transition. I’ve had several transitions. I started out with avant garde jazz if you listen to my first couple of albums. It was all acoustic avant garde. Then with my five-year stint with Miles Davis, we were doing exploratory improvisational funk electronically. This album... The club scene was happening big in New York and that was kind of paying a little homage to that before I had moved on to “Juicy Fruit” and the other stuff. That was also probably the last project I did using big arrangements, strings and horns. Because after that, I went into more of a neo-minimalist approach. Less was more, maybe using – how do you take three or four instruments and make them sound like ten?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You mentioned big orchestration and bigger arrangements.

Mtume

Yes, sir.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What’s involved with something like this? I mean, you have the Mtume band –

Mtume

Yes.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Which is, how many pieces is the band at this point?

Mtume

Which incarnation? At that incarnation?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

At this incarnation, yeah.

Mtume

It was, I think, seven of us. I think seven of us.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

That’s already a decent number.

Mtume

Yeah.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Then on top of that, you have brass –

Mtume

Yeah, because what I was doing then, those Mtume albums, like I said, those first couple of albums, they were done in between all these other projects my partner Reggie Lucas and I were doing. I was doing Stephanie Mills, “Whatcha Gonna Do,“ Phyllis Hyman, Lou Rawls, The Spinners. If we had six weeks, I’d say, “Okay, let’s do an Mtume album.” This was my last album like that, because after that I said I would do no more production.

It was one day I actually sat down to play. I had a project and tears came to my eyes. I didn’t understand what it was. This is important for a lot of you guys who are writers. I realized what I was playing sounded like everything else I had done. Emotionally, I didn’t know how to cope with that. Then it hit me. They talk about writer’s block. I had writer’s blockade. It was like, when everything starts to sound like the last thing you did, it’s time to move on or move out. That was the last album I did with that musical frame of reference, horns and strings, much more sounding like something else.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. That was a very successful sound for you as a producer.

Mtume

That was the reason why we were still doing it. Eight or nine gold and platinum albums. A Grammy.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let’s go back a little ways. You are from a musical family. Where did you grow up and can you describe your musical environment coming up?

Mtume

Yes. I was born and raised in South Philadelphia. My biological father is Jimmy Heath from the Heath Brothers, the famous jazz Percy and Tootie Heath. The father that raised me was James “Hen Gates” Forman, who was also a very famous, in the Philadelphia area, pianist. He was a jazz pianist. At nine and ten years old, I’m at the house, quite often, maybe at dinner, there’s Dizzy Gillespie, there’s Thelonious Monk, there’s John Coltrane. Now, I’m not going to sit here and lie to y’all, like I knew how deep that was [laughs]. Like, shit, I’m nine! But I did know there was something very, very special. Lalo Schifrin would come by a lot. Sonny Stitt would stay at the house when he was working in Philly. I had a chance to be around that. I always say my front ground is jazz. It’s not background, it’s front ground. Out of that, I moved into other forms and variations in music. I grew up in jazz. I was going to the clubs at fourteen. Putting a little mascara, you know. I couldn’t get no drinks, but I was sneaking in. This is true talk. This is Red Bull, right?

I also grew up with R&B. As we talked before, I’m listening to Marvin Gaye and maybe that weekend I’m going to hear Yusef Lateef at Pep’s. I grew up with both. The first time I realized my musical tastes were a little different than the rest of the kids? I remember I was in sixth grade and everybody had to bring two records. I brought Frankie Lymon, “Why Do Fools Fall In Love,” and then I brought Miles Davis. The kids, everybody, was really getting off with Frankie Lymon. When they put Miles on, it was like Dr. Death had come in the room [laughter]. Then it was that I realized jazz was an acquired taste and I was very fortunate to have been born in that environment. It’s almost like having both worlds to draw from.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

When did you start playing yourself?

Mtume

Like I said, my dad, Hen Gates, was a jazz pianist. Now, remember, at that time, McCoy Tyner was coming around the house, taking lessons from my old man. Lee Morgan, I remember Lee Morgan very well. The piano was always there. I just naturally started playing and I found out I could basically play anything I heard. Not anything, of course. I wasn’t dealing with Beethoven [laughs]. But basically, I could figure out chords. I had an ear, and I just started playing around the house.

My mother was also a big inspiration. She was very much into the jazz singers, Lady Day. She could actually sing very well. Dinah Washington was my sister’s godmother and we would go a couple of weeks each summer and stay up at her crib. There was always music around. I started playing like that. Then my uncle, Kuumba, Tootie Heath, bought me a conga and that opened me up for the percussion. The piano, playing the piano and also playing percussion... Harmony and rhythm was the same thing to me.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

They’re actually quite similar in a lot of ways.

Mtume

Yeah. Piano is a percussive instrument.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now you left Philadelphia. Not to pursue music, though.

Mtume

No [laughs].

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What were you doing?

Mtume

I had this horrible revelation my father introduced me to. When I was growing up, I just knew... The greatest basketball player back then was a guy named Elgin Baylor. He was the forerunner to Miles and MJ and Dr. J. I just knew there was no way I wasn’t going to get a basketball scholarship. Then one day, I was down in the basement, in my sanctuary practicing, and he said, “You know, man, you ain’t gon’ be tall.” It was like, “Oh, shit!” [laughs] You’re going to have to figure out how you’re going to go to college. I was a swimmer, actually. I got to college on a swimming scholarship.

As of now, there’s not many black swimmers, so imagine what there was back then if you’re talking about early ’60s. I had those experiences of going to a swimming meet and when I walked in, watching all of the umpires run into a corner to decide if I could get in the water. I remember a meet that some guys were throwing matches, fire, on me. You develop a backbone. So, I had a political consciousness. Plus, my parents were very much involved in the Civil Rights Movement. I ended up going to California on a swimming scholarship and ended up dealing with the black activism during the sixties.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Where did you wind up going to school?

Mtume

Pasadena City College.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Okay. Near Los Angeles. Now what was going on in Los Angeles as far as activism at that time?

Mtume

Well, if you remember, I went out in ‘66, summer of ‘66. For anybody trying to figure it out, I’m 67, so some of this stuff goes way back before a lot of y’all were even thought about. The Watts Revolt had happened. You have to understand. In the country at that time, it was activism all across the board. You had the young white students who were dealing with the war. You had the Black Panthers. I was with an organization called US organization, that was a cultural organization. We created something called Kwanzaa, that’s still celebrated today. There was a different temperature in the country, and we were all pretty much coming out of a college movement. Obviously, I migrated to that and then one thing fell apart. The organization fell apart and then I was asked to come back to Newark, New Jersey by a gentleman named, a dear friend of mine who just passed, Imamu Baraka. He asked me to come back to help on the Ken Gibson campaign, which was the first black mayor elected on the east coast, so I came back for that. Then I met this guy named Miles Davis and the rest was [laughs], it was over. It was about the music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right, but you did get into the music and work on the music previous to joining Miles as well.

Mtume

Oh, yes. Yes.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Just to give people an idea where your music was at that point, you were still playing piano or percussion at that point?

Mtume

Yeah, both. I always played both.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. Let’s hear a little something from an album that you worked on.

(music: Herbie Hancock – “Bunia” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK. That’s kind of a family project, correct?

Mtume

Yes.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Alright.

Mtume

That was Herbie Hancock on piano, my uncle, Tootie Kuumba on drums, Buster Williams on bass. Don Cherry was on trumpet and Jimmy Heath was on sax. The song was called, “Kamili.” I wrote that for my wife. That was my uncle’s album, but he called me and he knew I’d been writing and he gave me my first shot. It almost tears me up to think that he had that much faith. He said, “I want you to write all the music.”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right.

Mtume

I said, “But it’s not my album.” He said, “Yeah, but it’s going to be your music.” That’s the way it kicked off. Being in there, showing Herbie Hancock, “Here’s the chords.” [laughs] That was a great experience.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, when did you become known professionally? I guess beyond professionally, as Mtume?

Mtume

I purposely never wanted the connection with the the Heath name, not because I had a problem with my bloodline. It was that I always had this thing about siblings or children who were born where one of the parents is famous in one field or another. I didn’t walk in anybody’s shoes, I wanted my own sandals. I usually kept that out, even when I signed with Epic. They were like, “This is great for the PR.” I said, “No, no. I want people to know me for what I accomplish. Then they can make the connection.” But I would say it started getting known when I went back to New York.

This is a really interesting story. I don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly. Every young musician fantasizes about who they wanted to play with. This is the honest truth. I had three names I wanted to play with and it was in this order. First was McCoy Tyner, second was Freddie Hubbard, third was Miles Davis. None of whom I’d even met. I get to New York, two weeks as I’m in New York I get a call. McCoy Tyner was getting ready to record next week and he wanted to know if you can do the album. Number one, that was number on the list. Number two, Freddie Hubbard calls. I work with him and while I was working with Freddie Hubbard at a place called the Vanguard in New York, Miles Davis came to hear me. I didn’t see him, but he sat in the corner and everybody told me he was there. Two weeks after that I got a call. Miles Davis. He said, “Man, what are you doing for the next nine months.” He said, “We’re getting ready to go to Europe.” I said, “I’m down.” I guess it was around that time.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

With Herbie Hancock – this is kind of as a side note, out of curiosity. He had the Mwandishi group. Was it true that you gave the names to all the players in that group?

Mtume

Yeah. Herbie and the group were very interested in culture and Swahili. Every time they came to town I would go hear them, then one day I just gave them the names. They wanted names to translate for the group. Mwandishi was his name, it means the writer.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

All the other players had their names as well. Okay, back to Miles. Miles says, “Come join me in the group.” What was your first impression of Miles?

Mtume

Shit, I mean... Miles and I had a very, very, very, very close relationship. As a matter of fact, in his autobiography he talks about how he loved me like a son. We would talk because we’re both insomniacs. I don’t go to sleep until 3 or 4 in the morning, even now. We would talk music, we would talk about concepts. I would call that my introduction to zen. Learning what you don’t play sometimes is more important that what you play. Sometimes leave something out, don’t finish the statement. Like I said, “There’s no such thing as a mistake if you learn something.” OK?

These lessons ... You know silence is sound because it’s air. You know what I mean? You learn that and you apply that to understanding melody. You begin to understand, “Okay out of these ten notes I could use, what’s the two that implies the other eight?” It’s the appreciation for abbreviation. Most people musically they talk in paragraphs. Learn how to talk in quotations. Take your music and reduce it to its highest goal. It’s like people who talk too much. You know what I mean? It’s just too many notes. Why? At a certain point I can’t digest all that anyway. What’s the ones that really matter, especially to song writers. The secret to songs is melody. Everything else is under that. At the end of the day, that’s the tip of your iceberg. You got too many notes, if I can’t hum your song, it ain’t a hit. Everything is a nursery rhyme at the end of the day. But you got to make it your nursery rhyme.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

How would you describe the music you guys were making in the Miles Davis group at that time?

Mtume

Improvisational funk, using electronics in a way that it had never been used. I joined the band in ’71, we recorded an album in ’72 that really set the stage for a whole new musical movement. But the critics who were too arrogant to ask what we were doing decided to write about something they didn’t even know, they didn’t even have a vocabulary. I always say it’s like inviting Kool-Aid drinkers to a wine tasting contest. They didn’t even have the palate. But they were writing about it.

I just appreciate YouTube. My son and I were talking about this on the way over. That’s my son Fa and my granddaughter, Aya, right here, she’s eleven. [applause] She’s also our security guard. [laughs] Taking this very complex musical idea and pushing the music, pressing the boundaries. To me that’s always what it was about, pressing the boundaries. That’s one thing I find, I’m not going to say boring about a lot of contemporary music but certainly repetitious. People are scared to take chances. You don’t move music by standing still. You got to move music by believing in what you’re doing and not being afraid of criticism and trying something. There’s an old African proverb that says, “To stumble is not to fall. It’s really just to move forward faster.” Some of you all will get that later, but you understand. You don’t really fall, you stumble but that’s pushing it, there’s not enough push. That’s why I’m so happy to see what you guys are doing here. This is very important. You have an opportunity to really hone your craft and share it with other people who are on the same creative level. That’s very important.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Let’s take a look at you and Miles Davis and some of the rest of the band in Tokyo.

(video: Miles Davis Live in Tokyo / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You used to come to Japan every year?

Mtume

Yes. I think the first trip I came to Japan was with Miles, I think in ’72, no later than ’73. Then I’ve been back and forth several times, Sonny Rollins, Roberta Flack, my own band. But that man, just to see that, that’s a lot of memories man.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What’s the most Miles Davis thing that you recall about Miles Davis and working with him? What were rehearsals like? I mean, you know.

Mtume

No, no, no, no, no. No rehearsals. [laughs] There was a reason, the reason I responded like that. I was like one of the young guns. I’m one of those guys, “Man, we got to rehearse. We got to rehearse.” He pulled me to the side... I mean when I say no rehearsal, I think maybe during that entire five years, maybe we rehearsed three times.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Three times?

Mtume

Yeah, maybe. Miles pulled me to the side and said, “Look.” I mean he used much harsher language, but it was in a very fatherly way. He said, “Look,” he said, “Man, I pay you to rehearse on stage.” It took me a minute to understand that. He said, “I don’t want to ever overcook the meal.” I had to think about that, and then I understood what he was saying. Every night I want this to be an adventure. He said, “Because if you start rehearsing this ...” Now this is for what we were doing, because every night you don’t know where you’re going. Your musical antenna always had to be really sharp. But he wanted an adventure every night. You start rehearing, you start finding yourself playing certain patterns that you know work. It’s like a signer who can sign high notes. “Okay, I’m going to get them right here.” And everybody goes, “Oh.” You know? You don’t want preconditioned thoughts in your head.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Was that the same with the recording process as well?

Mtume

Yeah. You never knew when you were going to record. He didn’t like to let you know. You get a call the day before the recording. I remember we came in one session and he had some music written out and then he had it in colors. B flat minus seven and that’s in blue, C sharp and that’s in yellow and orange. You know you’re with somebody who’s really there. You don’t really want to feel square and ask. If I’m here, then he obviously thinks we’re hip enough. So we kind of figured those colors represented feelings. What is blue to you? That would determine the inversion of the cord or rhythmically how would you interpret red? Like I said zen stuff, man.

I tell you one experience that was one of the most overwhelming experiences I’ve ever had. We were playing in Lebanon, and it was during the time the Israeli and the Lebanese were having physical struggles. I mean it was war. When we played, the President’s son came to hear us. We’re surrounded by about 100 [or] 200 soldiers, machine guns and everything because you know. You know that took the music somewhere. After we finished we’re in the dressing room, it was like a tent, and all of a sudden we hear this [imitates people speaking quickly] and all these guns cocking. I’m like, “What? We going to get it here like this?” And this Arab cat runs through, he breaks through and he falls at Miles’ feet, Miles is sitting in the chair and he starts crying. This is the honest truth, he says, “Now I can die.” He said, “Man, I never thought I’d live to see you.” He said, “Your music saved my life. I was going through some difficult periods and your music ...” You know we all trying to be hard, but everybody started to get that little water, you know? Then I looked at Miles and he teared up. It was showing me that you never know who your music’s touching and you never know the effect your having on people. To hear somebody fall at somebody’s feet and say that, it made me respect what we were doing and what all musicians do even more. Because it was a direct connection with how music affects people. I didn’t mean to get that... It was an overwhelming experience.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I can’t imagine. Now there was also a lot of, not just running through a take from start to finish with Miles, it was editing. Is that something that you were aware was going on at the time when you’re there? Taking all these different pieces and putting them together to make it something new?

Mtume

I was aware but I was not aware to the extent that that was being done by the producer, Teo Macero, who himself was a great saxophone player. Then I found out that they were doing things like, back then we’re talking about ’72 [or]’73, Miles would take Teo some cassette tapes and that would be edited into some of those songs. If your listening to On the Corner, some of those are a combination of four takes, and you never hear any difference. It’s seamless, it’s seamless transition. But he was a genius in taking things and migrating them into other things, just pieces here and there.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. I just want to play a little piece of something just because it’s so different from the stuff that came immediately after from the Miles Davis group. Just a little piece of this.

(music: Miles Davis – “Rated X”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now you’re laughing a little bit when we’re playing this, what’s going through your mind?

Mtume

Man, I’m flashing I mean... We didn’t get to the crazy part. [laughs] First of all there was so many things that we were mixing into that broth. You know, I guess, Miles had bitches brew and we were the broth. We were all big fans of P-Funk, James also Stockhausen, [John] Cage, Stravinsky. That’s Miles playing those cords.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

There’s no trumpet on this track?

Mtume

No, no trumpet. Matter of fact, we talked about that and he said he just got into the rhythm and we were just all hitting it. He said really was no room for the trumpet. That was another thing about Miles, he never forced anything. Now what lead horn player do you know wouldn’t play on a track? Yeah, it was always about surrender to what the music required. A lot of that, like I said, is funk. He’s got all his dissonance and a lot of that is Stockhausen, yeah that influence.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now in the band with Miles is a guitarist by the name of Reggie Lucas?

Mtume

Right my partner when we started out, yeah.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What happened, how did the Miles band come to an end and what did that the Dudley Two?

Mtume

As most things, like marriage, it came to an end, you know. What story you want to pick? It’s like... We were on tour with Herbie Hancock who had his big record –

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Head Hunters.

Mtume

Head Hunters. Right, thank you. Miles got sick, and we only did two concerts, two shows, together. At that time, nobody was clear about when he was going to come back and it ended up being what, five years? I think we all made the right decision. [laughs] Reggie and I had been experimenting with writing. Pete Cosey was the other guitarist and Michael Henderson pursued huge success in R&B. Al Foster was the drummer, Dave Liebman was the sax player, extraordinary saxophonist. We started writing, and I joined Roberta Flack. Roberta had been calling, she was a big fan of Miles and she also appreciated my playing very much. I was confronted with two offers and I had to make a decision, Weather Report and Roberta.

I said well, “Weather Report came from where I came from.” I said, “I want to do something different.” I decided to go with Roberta. It was the best decision. While I’m with Roberta Flack she called me and said she needed a guitarist. At that time Reggie was living in Chicago. I said, “I know one,” so Reggie came and joined. To make a long story short we’re in the middle of recording this album called Blue Lights in the Basement. We took a dinner break. I was kind of bored anyway.Everybody left to go to dinner, I had been messing around with this melody so I told Reggie to stay and I sat down at the piano so I was like [imitates melody] It was something called, “The Closer I Get to You.” When everybody came back, I gave them their parts, and I just wanted to put it on a tape. So we were listening back, and Roberta comes back. She says, “What’s that.” I said, “The Closer I Get to You.” There was no such song, I just felt a moment, you know what I mean? She said, “Can I record it?” “Sure.” She said, “You got the lyrics?” I said, “I no, I left them at home.” I just did the thing. [laughs] When you feel, “Hey man, this might be a shot.” We recorded it I told her I could get the lyrics back to her in the morning. I wrote the lyrics in the back of the car on the way back to the house. Obviously, I wasn’t driving. [laughs]

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

That would have even be more impressive.

Mtume

I got it to her, and I suggested that she do a duet with Donny Hathaway. That hadn’t done anything in a long time. That record came out and we did about five million units. That’s when my writing career started in pop music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It sounded a little like this.

(music: Roberta Flack feat. Donny Hathaway – “The Closer I Get to You” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I want to know at any point did somebody say to you, “Okay I just heard you doing this other stuff, it’s a little bit different.” How did you get to doing this, what prepared you to be able to do this because it is so drastically different from what you were doing immediately before or more or less immediately before professionally?

Mtume

I’ve always been of the persuasion that art is like water and it takes the shape of whatever you pour it into. Musically, I don’t have any boundaries of what I pour it into. When I’m doing avant-garde acoustic music I’m there, you know what I mean. It’s also about the ability to be open to transition. I’ve always felt that most artist get locked into the quick sand of sameness. You understand, just doing the same thing. You’re not following... I’ve always followed what my ear was telling me. I’ve never lied to the music and the music never lied to me. You just have to be open, I guess that’s the best way to explain it. Its interesting. Nobody’s ever asked me that, quite like that but that’s the truth. It’s just, this is where I’m at now and I never go back. I pretty much try to burn the bridges, so I don’t even have an opportunity to go back where I came from. If I cross that bridge, I burn it. Never give yourself a chance to look back. That’s always easier, looking forward is always harder. That’s a great question, I hope that answer is sufficient.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You and Reggie –

Mtume

It is drastic.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It’s drastic. It’s more drastic because of how we –

Mtume

You’re right, it’s drastic.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I mean you and Reggie become a production song writing team. What was the sound that you guys were going for together?

Mtume

Well, what had happened when we first hooked up... We started actually messing around writing when I was with Miles. I was doing more of lyrics and melody, Reggie was doing the music. When Reggie moved to Chicago that’s when I said, “Okay, ‘The Closer [I Get to You],’ is the first example, this is where I want to take it.” I’m doing the constructing where we going with the sound, the actual sound. What I wanted to do was develop a sound. Again, I come from the belief... Knowing who you are and having your own signature is the most important thing to do as an artist. Sounding like somebody is... You should be slapped in your face, okay. There’s the three stages I talk about, the creative sequence. The first stage is imitation. I don’t care who you are, where you come from, I don’t care if you’re a musician, poet, you a painter, sculptor. There’s somebody that you see and you say, “Damn I want to do it just like that.” You pretty much imitate, that’s your first guide. Then somewhere along there you develop, what I call a passage to emulation. What do I mean by that? You still have that other person, that is your main influence but you’re starting to find a little bit of yourself. If you’re fortunate enough you go to the third stage, innovation. That’s when you establish who you are. That’s the result of all those things that go through your funnel. I wanted to put a rhythm section together, that was created for the specific purposes of going after a sound.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What’s the key to maintaining a good partnership, musically, with somebody?

Mtume

Success. [laughs] It’s an old saying, success needs no explanation, failure can never be explained. You don’t stay with something so long if it’s a failure. If you rolling, you stay with it as long as it’s feeding you, and I don’t just mean economically. I mean it’s feeding. All partnerships usually end with, you’re no longer nourished by the music that you’re producing so you got to go out and go to the next level.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

All right let’s just hear a little something, a little –

Mtume

We didn’t have a fallout. We had a grow out. Sometimes [extends his hands in opposite directions] you dig?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

This is another thing from that era with you and Reggie Lucas.

(music: Stephanie Mills – “What Cha Gonna Do With My Lovin’” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What’s your strategy with dealing with vocalists? Do you have a go to philosophy, that you adhere to that works, or is it a case-by-case basis? That’s Stephanie Mills by the way, I didn’t say who it was. “What Cha Gonna Do [With My Lovin’].”

Mtume

Well I think one of the keys that you need to establish, is what kind of voice you pull toward. Which one are you drawn... I’ve always been closer to the female voice. I feel that. An important thing to understand with a vocalist, don’t over produce the vocalist. Be a guide because a lot of times, a singer can get stuck, they don’t know where to go. Be there for that. But you got to know what you’re doing – you know what I mean – if you’re guiding somebody. But don’t get in the way of an artist.

When an artist is free to do what they do best, that’s when you get the best performance. When you trying to [bring structure to] every line – no. The thing is here’s the line and sometimes you have to adjust. Maybe the melody you had in your head doesn’t work with that artist. You heard it perfectly when you’re doing it, but you not the recording artist. At the end of the day, to answer your question, what you go for: what feels right. Sometimes what you wrote is not going to work when you record it. I can’t tell you how many songs I thought were great, and then the next day you record it you say, “What, am I kidding?” You know, don’t get in the way of your artist be there to shape and direct where they’re going. A lot of times people, you know, they’re frustrated artists themselves. You know, “Say it like this.” No, it don’t work like that let them be free, let them be free.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What are your recollections of working with Donny Hathaway and Phyllis Hyman? Two supremely talented but obviously tortured, artists.

Mtume

It’s very interesting you bring that up. As a matter of fact, as soon as I get back to New York, there’s a cat from Holland who’s doing a documentary on Donny. He’s in New York right now, and I’m going to put my part on it. That’s very heavy for me because the last two songs Donny Hathaway ever sang were two songs that I did. “The Closer [I Get to You]” and another song called “Back Together Again.” As a matter of fact, that’s the night he died.

I know he killed himself that night. We recorded his song and it was a Saturday night. He had a breakdown in the studio and as a result he couldn’t continue. I said, “It’s cool, Donny, we’ll finish it Monday.” About five o clock in the morning, which would have been Sunday morning, my phone was ringing. You know when it’s early like that, you know that’s weird. I picked it up, and it was someone crying and I said, “Who is this?” And she said, “This is Roberta.” She said, “Mtume, Donny’s dead.” It’s strange every time I hear “Back Together Again.” I’m both proud that he was such a great artist and that you had the opportunity to do a couple of his songs.

Donny was troubled as was Phyllis Hymen. Donny didn’t leave a note. Phyllis did leave a note and a dear friend of mine, Kenny Gamble, Gamble and Huff, he called me. And when he had the note, he read it to me. She was really troubled with new artists coming along and she felt... I mean, if you can imagine this. She felt she was too old. And I’m like, “One of the greatest voices ever...” But people have their own insecurities. And she ultimately took her life while she was in the middle of a week of performances at the Apollo Theater with the Whispers.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

But you have other recollections of working with Phyllis though. What kind of stands out?

Mtume

First of all, the voices. I always say everything’s about the voice. Phyllis had one of the most interesting tones for a female. She had a low register that just ran through you. I enjoyed it because she cussed like I did. She was a sailor. “F you.” I said, “Yeah, F you, too.” There’s a section on one of the songs, “You Know How to Love Me,” where she sings this long note and I had to do it over and over until it was right. So right after that she said, “F you.” I said, “Okay, cool.” So she strolls out. I say, “Let’s take a dinner break.” So while she goes out, I have one of the cats go out and get a dozen roses, tie them around the microphone. She comes back. I say, “Okay, we ready?” She said, “Yes.” She walks out. I had the lights out in the recording [booth] where the microphone was. I put the lights on. She standing in front of the roses and she broke down crying. I mean, that’s the kind of sensitivity it was. I just loved her. I loved her, man. Phyllis was great.

Mtume

Is it tough to resolve these kind of conflicts in the studio? I mean, everybody here is working together in close proximity.

Mtume

Yeah. I’ve never had... [laughs] Thou speaketh too soon. [laughs] I had one bad experience. The studio is where you check your ego at the door. That means for the producers and the artists. And I had one bad ... I’m not even gonna mention the name because it’ll probably make me mad again. But he was a drag. Just one.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Alright. So that was the only unresolvable situation. But –

Mtume

I quit. I quit.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

But hopefully everything is resolvable at some point.

Mtume

Oh, I know. That’s the happiest place in the world to be, in the studio. The one thing I never worked... If I’m working in the studio, I never allow guests. The artists’ guests or my personal guests. Anybody. They have to wait outside. Because if an artist is singing, she’s looking from that room looking into the control room and if you got these people sitting there, it turns into a performance. You see, you can’t help it. If I’m singing, it’s a performance because we made a connection. So you take that out, and everything is here. It’s like being under a microscope, and I’ve always felt you get the best performance when there’s no audience. We’re just in there, just me and the engineer. That’s how I’ve always worked. Everybody has their own way.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So then you mentioned a little bit earlier how Mtume, the band, formed. Can you, as a sort of a thing when the other sessions weren’t happening, what did you envision for the band Mtume that was different from what you were doing on these productions?

Mtume

Well like I said, the first two albums were just, “Hey, let’s do an album.” We had this deal. I had to fill it. I had to deliver an album. I didn’t take the band serious until, as I talked earlier, when I had that moment I had to confront. I was doing the same thing. And at that time, I decided I wouldn’t produce anybody else. I didn’t produce anybody. I said, “I’m gonna take a year, put another band together, find a studio.” Because the studio is the other musician. The studio is a sound. And an engineer... And I took off a year. I only worked in one room in New Jersey, a place called E.A.R.S. And that was the Juicy Fruit album. And I didn’t do anything else. And that’s when I found out what my vision was for the band. I really didn’t have a vision. I had just a reason to fill a contract. But on that album, I said, “No. We’re going to do this, and I’m going to do it.” I didn’t think, “I’m going to change the direction.” But I said, “I’m gonna do something where it’s a new sound.” Again, like you said, not radical, but it was definitely a departure from everything else that was out there.

So, I take the record to Epic. They’re into... “We can’t put this out.” I’m like, “Why?” They said, “It’s too slow.” Because they were dealing with beats per minute. I don’t know who came up with that madness.

[laugher]

Beats per minute? I said, “I write from my heart, not from my head.” And they said, “It’s too slow, but the other thing, it’s risque.” Now, you gotta take yourself back. This is 1983. That’s “Like a Virgin” now, with some of the stuff that’s on records now. But at that time, they didn’t want to put it out. So this is what they did. This was their negotiation with me. “Alright, okay, we’ll put it out since you’re insisting. But we’re not gonna release it for daytime play.” So it was only initially released for night, after 12 o’clock formats. After one week they were getting so many calls from around the country. They said in the report they kept getting was, it was probably the first record that anybody remembered where you knew the song by the beat. So obviously they did finally have to acquiesce to get in that money. It wasn’t like they loved it. They hated it. But money heals all things.

[laughter]

So obviously I become one of their favorite. But that was that story. So when I hear that line... Oh, also I got sued, I forgot, by Juicy Fruit gum, Wrigley’s.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right, so what happened there?

Mtume

Keep this right here, don’t let that out of the room. So, I get called in, I have to take a deposition, right? So roll in, I forgot, some big, huge, humongous law firm in New York. And I go in. So I’m this black guy walking in amazed at one of the longest tables I’d ever seen, with all these elderly white guys sitting around, and I’m taking a deposition. So it finally gets down to, I knew ultimately it’s gonna come to this. “Well, Mr. Mtume, what do you mean by you can lick me everywhere?” So I knew I had them then. So I rolled back. Well I said, “Obviously it’s not about gum.”

[laughter]

I said, “It’s about oral sex.” And you should have seen the looks that came... I don’t think anybody in that room was under 70, you know what I mean? [laughs] But that’s the great story I have. I don’t think I’ve ever told it public. “What do you mean by you can lick?” I mean, what kind of question is that, first of all?

[laughter]

So that’s why I laughed, y’all..

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So how did the beat come to be, then?

Mtume

What happened, as I said earlier, I was working... we were just dedicated to this album. So we had finished one of the sessions. It was about two in the morning. Everybody left, but I had this thing in my head. So I sat down, and the LinnDrum had kind of just came out and it wasn’t really being used that much in R&B. So I just sat down. [mimicks the beat] And I said, “That feels interesting.” So I laid it. I didn’t quantize it. That’s why it’s slightly off. It has more of a human thing to it because sometimes when you quantize, to me, something being exact is not cool. Because the humanity is sucked out. So I recorded like that. I called everybody back to the studio. So the guys get back at about three in the morning. We laid the track. Tawatha was on tour with Roxy Music. She was in Europe. She had two days off, flew her back. We recorded... I’m writing the lyrics as she’s recording them. And got her back on a plane so she could meet Roxy Music and finish. And that’s how that went.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So how did you take to drum machine hardware as a percussionist yourself? I guess this is what’s even more interesting as record for you personally is the drum machine is the thing that’s pushing this record through. Is that counter intuitive for you as a musician because you’re used to doing it yourself with your own hands?

Mtume

Not at all. Again, be like water. That was the shape I was pouring it in. I’m not threatened by a technology. I welcome it. I digest it. But I also try to humanize it. When you just depend on technology, but you have no musical understanding, that’s the first thing you lean on, is making everything perfect. It’s like, I can do this all day. The trick is, do I know how to do that? To make it lean, to curve the thing. It’s a combination of intuition, intellect, and technique. You gotta know what those things are. But if you’re just sitting at a machine and don’t know those other intricacies of what it is to deal with music or any art form. So yeah, no. I’m not threatened by technology. If that was the case, I wouldn’t use lights.

[laughter]

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Well that was always the counter-argument to the radical Miles Davis music as well, right? Because the critics were like, “Why are you playing this dissonant electric music? Why isn’t Miles playing acoustic music?”

Mtume

Because that’s where he was, and that bridge was already burned. You see, sometimes people are really offended when you move on. It’s like a relationship. How dare you? [laughs] You moved on. But if you don’t follow your instinct, and your intuition, then you never know what the... You never experience the joy of really being creative because you’ll be stuck in that quicksand, scared to do something different. And the least of all, I don’t care what anybody thinks. If I think it’s cool, try it. That doesn’t mean you don’t listen to other opinions, then that’s arrogance. But I mean, like I said, too much now...

If I can [digress] just for a second. Branding. People don’t talk about the music somebody’s creating, they talk about their brand. And somebody suffers when that happens. And who suffers more often than not is the listener and the fan because you’re going to get the same bullshit in a different cup, in a different package. “Oh, but because that’s so-and-so it must be good.” What? No. Is it good based on the fact that it’s good? So you see a lot of stuff. People put out the same album 12 times over and everybody’s, “Oh, the new so and so, oh it’s great.” Why? You scared to have an opinion because some of the stuff is really bad. Some of it’s really great. But you’re branding. And like in boxing, I see this. Right after music, boxing is just my second favorite thing in the world. But I see fighters who don’t fight to defend the title, they fight to protect it. So your brand. So you don’t fight Pacquiao, OK? But then the whole boxing game get turned ... Because it’s about the best meeting the best. And in music, that’s starting to happen. Branding. That’s why you only have two or three major stars. When did that happen? I knew 50 great female singers, 50 great saxophonists. What is this thing we got? One or two of this, one or two of that. When did that happen? Branding is a dangerous thing because it puts brakes on the creative process because you know you can sell by just putting it out because your name. No, you have to earn the right for people to love your music.

[clapping]

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You mentioned at the top of the conversation that scoring was one of your passions. This point in your career, the technology and scoring came together a little bit, and it sounded a little like this, right?

(music: James Mtume – “Bigger’s Beat” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Mtume

That’s from the film Native Son. It’s called “Bigger’s Beat.”

Mtume

From the film, Native Son, it’s called “Bigger’s Beat,” there was a scene that he’s walking down the street in the ghetto, back in the late ’30s.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It’s a period piece, you have this, you know...

Mtume

Yeah, music to me, music is timeless. I hate the idea when a film is, takes place in one period and the composer feels like he’s got to compose music from that period. I find it much more interesting when you mix periods because music translates in to anytime.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

How did you find this experience of doing the score for that film?

Mtume

Fun, fun. Big fun, big fun. Just being alone by myself. I think on that one I was using a Fairlight [CMI]. The Fairlight had just come out and like I said, as I moved on to do a television series. I had everything set up in my basement because technology was accessible like that then.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, the funny thing is, I mean, a lot of us know this from a different source. Not necessarily the soundtrack to the film. I only knew this and I think maybe some others as a record that Kid Capri used to spin back and forth at the beginning of of tapes and stuff like that and it was like, “Oh, OK, what’s this?” You know?

Mtume

Yes. Well, you know, that’s a very interesting point. One of the first, the first rapper that came to me was Grandmaster, Grandmaster Flash. We knew each other, and he came to me about that track and he told me something that I never forgot. He said Mtume, he said, “We sample your stuff, he said because your music is holey. He said I don’t mean like religious holy. It’s got a lot of holes in it.” And what he meant was what I was talking about earlier, space, you know. He said there’s a lot of things we can take, you know like after Biggie did “Juicy,“ that like opened that up for a whole new generation who had never heard the original. So then you have the sample of the sample being sampled and sampled. I call it Sample Simon. [laughs] But anyway, yeah, for some reason the cats took to that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Yeah, the cats took to this one. Now obviously Juicy has been sampled. Sampling became something that emerged as a very important part of hip-hop in the mid and late ’80s and you became a part of the conversation about the ethics of sampling. What was your stance at the time and how did you get pulled in to that conversation?

Mtume

Okay and I’m glad that you brought that up because I can clear that up right on Red Bull. It was a misconception. What happened was I was doing a radio show, and it was called Year in Review on KISS FM in New York. We were talking about the events that happened a week before New Year’s Day, so I said the most turnabout thing that I heard, I was driving in the car and this has only happened to me a few times in my life, that something came on the radio and I had to pull over to the side. It was a song called “Bring the Noise.” I had to hear who is this. It was like Thelonious Monk. How can these guys be playing in all these different keys? I’m thinking somebody’s playing, because you know, again I wasn’t familiar as most of my generation with sampling.

So on this radio show, I mentioned the most, the deepest musical thing I heard was this group Public Enemy and this song “Bring the Noise.” Then the subject came up about sampling, and I said my problem with sampling was you can’t take somebody’s music and just rap on it and call it your song, no more than I can take a rapper’s rap off and call it my song. In other words, pay the people who are providing the music. If you’re not creating the music, somebody is. I mean, if James Brown got a penny for all the times he was sampled, he would never have to perform again. He never got paid. That was my point with sampling. You must pay if you’re going to use somebody’s music. Why should they not get paid?

Daddy-O from Stetsasonic, we are great friends after this, but we was going at it. He put out this rap called “Talkin’ All That Jazz.” That’s about me. “I’m gonna knock you out,” you know. He completely misunderstood what I was saying. First of all I said Public Enemy and Hank Shocklee and the Bomb Squad, that was some of the most creative stuff I had ever heard. As things happen, it got macho, I felt myself out on a limb because nobody from my generation was saying nothing and like I tell people, I don’t mind being out on a limb, I’m just scared of saws, you know what I mean? I defended it, but it got a little out of hand but I was never against sampling.

First of all, how hypocritical could that be of me? I mean, as much as “Juicy” and stuff like that has been sampled. But I was saying at that time, they were not paying the artist that they were sampling, and I didn’t think it was right. Does that clear that up?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Yeah, you became, sort of known as the anti-sampling guy.

Mtume

Yeah, and that’s not true at all. It became that because nobody else, first of all, was speaking up. There was a great divide that happened in the black community generationally when hip-hop was coming in to full bloom. It was a divide between the older generation and the younger. I’ve always sided with the younger because I felt my generation didn’t leave a proper blueprint, and they were not supportive. Sampling became almost this lightning rod. I became the target, but like I said, I’m a big boy, my skin ain’t thin. My point was you must pay the people who’s music you are sampling.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Things had changed by the time “Juicy” had come out then, too.

Mtume

Oh yeah, right.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What was your impression of Juicy when you heard it?

Mtume

I loved it. First of all, I was honored that the next generation or an artist from the next generation... Because it’s about the music first and foremost, had it sold or not. I was just like wow they felt that good about it. I remember when I met Biggie. I was doing New York Undercover at the time and I was up at Uptown having a meeting with Andre Harrell and Andre said, “While you are here, Puffy needs to talk to you.” I said well tell him come on in. So Puffy came in and he said, “You know I got this artist named Biggie and I want to do ‘Juicy Fruit.‘” So I said, “Cool, this is how we’ll do it. There wasn’t a a long conversation. “You get 50 Cent, I get 50 Cent.” We did a page contract, very simple. If this is the music and you’re the rapper, boom. Then he brought Biggie in and we met. I took to him immediately, he was a sweetheart. That’s how that started. I was honored.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

How did the New York Undercover scoring come in to your life?

Mtume

That was that urban show about two cops. One black and one Latino working in New York, shot in New York, real New York themes. I thought it would be a very interesting challenge. Andre Harrell, but more importantly, Dick Wolf, Law and Order and all that were the executive producers. Dick pretty much was running it. I got the gig. It was a little difficult. When I brought the theme Dick didn’t like it because actually he never wanted me, Andre brought me, he wanted his man Mike Post.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Mike Post, yeah, Hill Street Blues.

Mtume

Yeah, Hill Street Blues. He said he didn’t like it, so I said OK. Then someone over at Universal Studios television department said send it over to us, send us a DAT. That’s when we did DAT’s. She called me back in about three hours and said, “Mtume, I just took it to the head of Universal Studios. He said he loves this, this is where we want to go, and he said, ‘Oh and by the way, tell Mtume thank you for ‘Juicy Fruit.’” [laughs] Again, you never know. This guy had to be 80, you don’t know who’s listening to your music. Like I said, I was able to put a sound on television that hadn’t been heard. I think the most progressive sound before that was Miami Vice.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

We are talking the mid–’90s at this point. Mtume, the band has stopped.

Mtume

Yes.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Why did you stop the band?

Mtume

It was time. You always got to know what time it is, you know. You always got to know what time it is. It could have gone on but then I would have been right back at that point I told you. I never wanted to experience that again, sitting down, trying to write some music and you’re not doing it from here. You’re doing it because you have a formula that you know, you can still reach X amount of people, and that’s not the reason to create music. I never started like that and I didn’t want to finish like that.

Everybody in that band went on to have very successful careers, especially Tawatha, she works with everybody, I mean the [Rolling] Stones, Dave Matthews, Lenny Kravitz. Phillip, my keyboard player is a principle at a school and runs the music department. Everybody went on to do something, so I felt good about that but to continue doing something artistically and you are lying to yourself – and if you are lying to yourself, you know you are lying... never lie to the people that believe in your music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. Now you did step a way a little bit, for some time but then you also mentored and produced some artists of the ’90s as well.

Mtume

Oh yeah, I did.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

A few different people. This is one of them who you did this track with.

(music: D’Angelo – “Girl You Need a Change of Mind” / applause)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Who was that?

Mtume

D’Angelo, my man.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

This was just a one ... was it a soundtrack or a cover?

Mtume

Yes, he called and asked me to produce that track. It was an old Eddie Kendricks track. It was for Get on the Bus. Yes, Get on the Bus soundtrack.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

He’s mentioned you as a mentor of sorts. Is it fun just this experience of working together or...

Mtume

Well, actually no. I had forgotten this, and he reminded me. When he was doing his first album, Brown Sugar, I was in the studio next door. He came over when he found out I was there and he was having some difficulties navigating through some parts. I actually did that with him and helped him through. Then there was another time I was in the studio, so there was a couple times. Before that I always told him, you know when we would talk, you’ve got something special and you’ve just got to keep pushing, keep pushing and he reminded me of it. He’s always been one of the young cats that I’ve always felt very close to.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What did you tell him that day?

Mtume

Don’t be scared to be you. That’s the only thing that you can tell any artist, because, you know what, when you say that there’s certain truths that you got to face. Maybe you don’t have it. You know a lot of people are great in the mirror. But at the end of the day, you got it or you don’t. If I don’t have it at least I... if I’m going to go down in flames, it’s going to be with my own matches. I don’t need you to light me. Be you and if it happens, great and if it don’t, think of something else.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. You did step away from music, is that fair to say?

Mtume

Yes, absolutely.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Why?

Mtume

I didn’t feel it. I didn’t feel it. That’s a delicate place to be. That doesn’t mean that I won’t, look, I might wake up tomorrow and feel it. That thing doesn’t leave you. More importantly, you leave it. The thing, or as Miles used to say, the thang, the thang is always there, but you got to surrender something to bring something to that. What you surrender, there’s no room for BS. You have to be committed to that. The other thing, you and I talked about this, I mean, we sit up here talking man. We went through damn near 40 years of music, easy, and I played a lot of different types of music. It’s not like most people spent pretty much their career in one or two genres. I haven’t done it all. There’s no such thing. I was a musician. Then I said I wanted to be a writer. Then I said I wanted to produce. Then I said I wanted to put a band together. Then I said I wanted to score. I think, for me now, something I would love to do, I would love to do Bonnie Raitt. Something just that would pull like all of it, it’s been here or here. I’m not really touched by... I appreciate what I hear but I would need a challenge.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. And you’re return to activism as well.

Mtume

Yes. The last 20 years I spent on New York radio on a political talk show called Open Line. All the politicians came through. I’ve traveled on several delegations to Cuba, Libya, Sudan, Ghana, South Africa. Pretty much, that’s the water, that’s the shape that... When I say I left music, I just started pouring it into some other things. I think, as you and I were talking earlier, I think right now the first interview I did of any serious consequence was with you and Red Bull, when my son hooked it up. This is the second one. I haven’t talked about music in 20 years. Not like this. I feel, at this age, I have a lot that I can give. You know experiences, or how this goes, how that goes. It’s time for me to give that because, you know, once you split, that’s it. He was cool but he didn’t leave us any information.

I used to always joke with people, they say, “Methuselah lived to be 900,” and I say, “Yeah, well what else did he do? Yeah well he lived, but what did he do?” “Oh, I don’t know that.” I’m glad to be here and anything that I can do to and be of help to about, you got it. I’m about giving this information to the next generation. That’s what it’s about.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Before we open it up to questions, I just wanted to know if you thought there was a... through all the different facets of your career, the different phases, is there was a thread that you see that connects them in some way?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

If there is any thematic fiber in my career, or that one thing that you could point to, that goes back to what I said earlier: I never lied to the music, and the music never lied to me. When you’re finished with a phase, move on. Move on. That’s the only way you expand the music, and being open. I’ve never been one of the old heads that was, “That ain’t nothing because it’s new.” You don’t understand it. Well then learn it. I’ve never been threatened by something new. That’s what I live for. I live to be inspired by something I haven’t heard. How else do you grow? That’s why we got too many midgets. We got too many midgets in the world right now. They don’t want to grow. Yeah, midget music.

[laughter]

Always be open to the next thing. I have an 11-year-old granddaughter. She might come up with something next year that I’ve never heard, and you know what, I’m going to be right at the crib, “Ayah, how did you get that sound?” I come out of jazz, and you have to understand in jazz everybody shared. That’s the other thing, everybody shared. I had a problem once with some rhythms, odd time signatures. I called Max Roach, a master. You don’t have that now. These cats hold on like they got the secret to cancer. You know what I’m saying? “How did you get that symbol sound?” or “What cord did you play?” You don’t grow the music by the music by doing this. [holds his hands to his stomach and crouches] You grow it by that. [spreads his arms apart] If you don’t get anything from what I’m telling you, everything I arrived at, I arrived at because somebody showed me something that I could add to it, but you got to share. That’s what I love about when we’re taking the studios rooms. You guys are working together. You’re sharing. It can’t grow by itself. It grows with expanding the sphere of information. Bam, there it is.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

There it is.

[applause]

All right, who has a question for Mr. Mtume? Please wait for the microphone.

Audience Member

Hey man, nice to meet you. Thank you for being here.

Mtume

Thank you.

Audience Member

I have a bunch of questions to ask you of course. “Rated X” sounded amazing on the speakers. Everything sounds incredible. When you were working with Miles, [John Coltrane] obviously passed away in ‘67, did he express anything... I mean, you said he had a very close relationship with him, did he express anything –

Mtume

No. No. Not with Trane.

Audience Member

No, with Miles. Did Miles ever express to you anything about Trane?

Mtume

Oh, that’s a great question. I’ll tell you one story Miles told me. When he knew Coltrane had to leave the band, they were playing a gig in Philly, and Miles said ... because you know Miles never stayed on the stage, when he finished his solo, he walked off the stage. He said he thought it was the corniest thing for someone to do a solo and stand there. He just got off the and he said... this was after the Kind of Blue album and they were playing all blues, and he went and sat at the bar and was watching Trane, and he said, “It just kept building and building.” And Miles said he sat there, and he had a drink, and he just started crying, at the bar. He said the reason he started crying, he said, “He’s got to go. This band can’t contain him anymore.” He cried because he knew Trane had to leave.

One other quick caveat, Trane played one night so long, the cats on the band was like, “Okay man.” You know, because he was trying to find it. So Miles said, “Why’d you play so long?” Trane said, “Man, I didn’t know how to get out of the song.” So Miles said, “Take the horn out of your mouth.”

[laughter]

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Who else has a question? Wait for the microphone.

Audience Member

Hi.

Mtume

Hi. How are you doing?

Audience Member

Good. Thank you so much. It’s been wonderful. Okay, this is going to be a little bit hard for me because I have to make the connection. Okay, so you were talking about writer’s block in the beginning... It’s kinda going to be a couple questions. How old were you when that happened and were any of your peers experiencing the same thing around the same age? And how did you come out of that, like, did you ever have writer’s block again or was it this extreme realization for you?

Mtume

It was a revelation. I had to be 30 something. I don’t remember which part in the equation of ’30s, but it was somewhere in there. Let me answer the next... Did any of my peers experience it? I’ve never had that discussion, but I know they have, because if you’re in this long enough, you’re going to experience that. If you don’t experience it, then that says more about you. You know what I mean? That means that you’re not trying to go somewhere. You’re not challenged by the fact that you’re not moving. You get out of it simply by burning the bridge. Starting over. I’m not going to use those cords. Or I’m not going to use that band structure. You got to change something about the environment that you create in. Some people go away, but I always say there’s no exit from your mind. I could go somewhere else and write, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m challenged. That’s what I did. That was that period where I said, “You know what? No more production. Let me concentrate on finding a sound for myself.” That’s when I had my greatest revelation musically.

Audience Member

That’s cool. Thank you. The other part is, so Miles Davis, when he played Woodstock, he saw all the other bands getting more into funk or... he saw what the audience was reacting to and he knew he needed to make a change –

Mtume

That’s not true.

Audience Member

That’s not true, okay.

Mtume

That was a quote [Wynton] Marsalis made on the Ken Burns talk, I know where you got it, and I hated it. I loved Ken Burns, but I hated it because they used two people, Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch, who are diametrically against what Miles is doing. Wynton a lot less now, but at the time Stanley Crouch... as a matter of fact, I debated Stanley Crouch. It’s on YouTube, on the subject of Miles and the electric period. I gave him an electric spanking.

[laughter]

Because a lot of that stuff them guys have been saying – you have to understand Miles character. Miles wasn’t about, “You dogging me, that’s okay, because I’m going to give you more by responding to it.” He never said anything, but we had those conversations and how he felt. I knew where you got that, right, but that’s not true. Miles was evolving. It’s very interesting. Two things always happened when Miles made his musical change. He changed music maybe about four times, not just at himself, but the direction of music, three or four times. The two things you look at, he changes his woman and he changes the way he dressed. I’m not even trying to be funny. If you listened to Around Midnight, and those pieces, Milestones, and then you go to the next period Miles in the Sky, he’s dressing differently. By the time we get to Bitches Brew and On the Corner, because he was changing. It had nothing to do with sitting up watching Sly Stone and them and saying, “Oh, I’m just a trumpet player.” I think that’s how it was said. No, It was honest.

See, again, if you change because you’re changing to try and get an audience or you’re trying to... That’s not real change. That’s adaptation. There’s a distinction. He didn’t adapt. He changed. That’s metamorphosis.

Audience Member

Do you know if there was ever any frustration for him in any of those changes or if it just seemed pretty seamless with him?

Mtume

No. I never... and we had hours, thousands of hours of conversation. You know, because I’m like a sponge when I’m around them cats. I remember, just quickly, I remember when we were in Brazil. The road manager came and got me, knocking on the door. It was maybe two in the morning. He said, “Look man, Miles needs you right now.” He said, “No, just come.” I didn’t know, so I put on my clothes and I went up. Miles was in the corner crying. He was actually torn, torn. I went over to him and said, “Miles, what’s happening?” He just looked at me and said, “All my friends are dead.” That ran through me. He’s in the corner lamenting. He said, “Coltrane, Cannonball [Adderley], you know, Fats Navarro, you know, all the cats. Wynton Kelly. Paul Chambers.” And he had survived, and that’s what he was... “Why me?” I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to go off but that’s the kind of... No, he changed out of the need to change. Not, “Oh man, I need to get some costumes and plug in.” No.

Audience Member

I’m sorry, one more question out of curiosity. You were talking about sitting at the table with Dizzy Gillespie and stuff, I was wondering if you ever had any experiences with Thelonious Monk or what was your take on his character?

Mtume

The first time I met Monk... First of all, I think he was the most unique human being I’d ever been around. A lot of people said he was crazy. No, he was just on another sphere, well, the Thelonious sphere. I think he’s one of the true geniuses that we produced. A lot of people don’t know the extent of Monk’s musical knowledge. I mean, Monk was in Julliard, I think in ‘41. Do you understand? This stuff just doesn’t happen. Monk grows out of – he knew all of this music. Then out of that? Again, innovation. He came up with something. He was the architect for the chord structure in bebop.

Audience Member

Yeah, he’s very, very spiritual. Seemingly [laughs]. Thank you so much.

Mtume

Thank you.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

All right. Who’s next?

Audience Member

Thank you.

Mtume

Thank you, sir.

Audience Member

I’m fascinated by your interest in Swahili culture –

Mtume

Yes, sir.

Audience Member

– because last year I was at a music show and I found a Herbie Hancock record. I saw all the Swahili names –

Mtume

Yes, sir.

Audience Member

– and I just wanted to know what prompted that?

Mtume

Like I said, I was a member of US Organization, that was a cultural nationalist organization. A lot of times, because I had relationships with these cats, when they come into LA to play, a lot of them would come over. We would have these sessions on Sunday, discussions on Sunday. Sonny Rollins would come through, Yusef, and then Herbie and them came through. They started coming through every time they were in LA, and Herbie and I really connected on the cut you played [on] Kawaida. We just were tight and then his band, I got very close to them. They came one day and just wanted some names. They came with what they felt their best quality was, and we just sat down and went through it and they’ve used it. It’s just vibrations.

Audience Member

Cool. Thank you.

Mtume

Thank you. I hope I’m not boring you. Some of y’all might need a break. Go to sleep or something, I don’t know. I’m over here talking too long. I’m sorry. [laughs]

Audience Member

Hi, sir.

Mtume

How are you?

Audience Member

I’m good. Thank you for sharing your truths and your stories with us. My question is in regards to cinema and scoring.

Mtume

Yes, ma’am.

Audience Member

Basically, the cinematic soundtracks, they got this super-clean quality to them –

Mtume

I’m sorry. Super what?

Audience Member

Clean.

Mtume

Yes.

Audience Member

– and just super quality and real life is not super quality. Coming from a jazz background, do you ever get frustrated by it being so clean and not think to yourself and maybe if we’re pushing to do something different, why not make that guy walking down the street sound like that guy walking down the street –

Mtume

Yeah, yeah.

Audience Member

– really with the music. Just that way. Like, that experience as opposed to this escapist fantasy of what the viewer thinks of this guy walking down the street?

Mtume

Right. I think that’s an excellent question. For me, and I can only give you what I feel, like I said, you don’t have to be locked into the time zone of the film that you’re watching. Musically, you can go anywhere. I’ll give you a perfect example. Star Wars. Okay? What was that? Was that future or was that old symphonic? [sings] Dun din dun, din dun. Okay? That worked, for some reason. You’d be surprised at things you’ve already digested that are examples of what I’m talking about, but it’s not enough of them. It’s not enough of them.

You know the ones I hate? I hate to see movies that were shot in another century and the music? Why you composing like that? It’s also about being, again, that word, open. Music is as virtual as anything. You can put it anywhere if it’s right and if it works. That’s the key. If it works, it’s right. Why not try something? How about stumbling a couple of times? You stumble a couple of times, you’d be surprised what you stumble on. I do think there’s this worship of exactness that’s really a drag. We worship that. Cats go to school, learn how to play Coltrane’s solo on “Giant Steps.” So what? I can play every note. Okay. That’s what he did. What can you play?

We’re starting to, what I call, Mac music. We take these things and we just become carbon copies. Somebody’s great because they can play like Sonny Rollins. That’s not a reason to be great. You’re a drag, to me. You’re just plain copying. It’s like those paintings that you could buy – I don’t know if they still have them – paint-by-numbers? When you follow the numbers, you come out with a portrait or something. You didn’t paint it, you followed the numbers. It’s copycatting. Too much copycat has been able to slide by as legitimate music and legitimate artists and they’re not. They’re copycats, but y’all need to say that.

The problem is, the public that knows is scared to say something, because then you’re dogged. “Oh, you’re playa hating.” No, I’m not. This shit’s not good! It’s not good. Y’all need to say more of that because too much is let by because celebrity worship. You gotta just call it out because it won’t move forward. Mac music. Five million served, nobody satisfied.

Audience Member

Cool. Thank you so much.

Audience Member

I just had a question about when you stopped doing big arrangements and orchestration. You were talking about go to another place and minimize. When you’re writing those really minimal riffs, like the bass line in “Juicy Fruit,” is it a matter of sitting down and working over this riff until it becomes exactly every note is perfect, what you want it to be, or is it something where it just comes out the first time or is it different all the time?

Mtume

Well, for me, and like I said, everybody’s different. That’s a great question. For me, it was like coming from the big orchestration stuff to neo-minimalism. I mean, “Juicy Fruit,” there’s only four instruments playing, maybe five. You mix it so it sounds bigger than what’s actually there. You can personify instruments in the mix. In some ways, it’s more challenging to come down, because now, the bass line’s gotta match something. If we took Juicy, the bass line’s really not a bass line. It’s more of a guitar line. [singing] Doo doo, doo doo, doo, doo, doo, bap. Doo doo, doo doo, doo, doo, bang. Doo doo, doo doo, doo, bop. Doo doo, doo doo, do you see? Then you got, little nursery rhyme. Dee, dee dee dee- Okay. Chords. Chords. Everything’s riding on the inversion of that chord. If I play a different inversion on those chords, the melody doesn’t work. It’s very, very intricate.

Audience Member

Did you take a lot of time perfecting each of those riffs?

Mtume

Yes. I mean, I want to make sure I understand. Take a lot of time.

Audience Member

When you’re writing.

Mtume

What’s a lot of time?

Audience Member

I don’t know [laughs]

Mtume

No, no, no. I’m not trying to be funny. I’m just – I’m trying to make sure I’m answering your question. If I told you I wrote it in one night, is that a lot of time?

Audience Member

Um, no.

Mtume

I had been thinking about it for weeks. See what I’m saying? Conceptually, even though I said that I laid that drum pattern down, things really kind of opened up, but I had been working off those chords and that sound, I’d been in there a year.

Audience Member

Uh huh, but consolidated it in a night.

Mtume

Exactly. Exactly, and there’s no reverb on that album. That was the first album I ever did like that.

Audience Member

That’s so sick.

Audience Member

How are you, sir?

Mtume

Yes, sir. How are you?

Audience Member

It’s a humbling honor to be able to communicate openly with you.

Mtume

Well, thank you very much.

Audience Member

I find it perfect that you touched on this whole copycat thing because our good friend, Vince Wilburn has made us aware of a band, Mostly Other People, that made a verbatim-

Mtume

That’s the name of the band?

Audience Member

Mostly Other People Do The Killing is the name of the band, and they’ve made a verbatim copy of Kind of Blue.

Mtume

Oh no!

Audience Member

You haven’t heard about this?

Mtume

No, sir.

Audience Member

The Miles Davis Estate is vehemently opposing its release and not supporting it at all, but NPR has taken the liberty to showcase it and highlight it.

Mtume

Now, let me make sure I’m clear. They did the record and everybody’s playing all the exact notes and everything?

Audience Member

The drummer, every single thing. Every single thing. To the point where, the NPR show will play both recordings and swap between them –

Mtume

And that’s really cool?

Audience Member

Undiscernible difference –

Mtume

Oh my goodness!

Audience Member

– between the two. I just find it very crazy that you had just mentioned that.

Mtume

Yeah.

Audience Member

That’s what’s going on right now and this band, they really don’t understand why people aren’t getting it, why people don’t dig it.

Mtume

[laughs] See, why do that? Why do that? I mean, unless you was doing this for Miles, but that’s not what Miles would’ve wanted. I can’t even repeat on this mic what I know he would say. Then what are you doing? What are you doing? If it’s getting to that, that’s kind of scary.

Audience Member

All right. One other question –

Mtume

I don’t even like the title of the band.

Audience Member

Right. I didn’t like it –

Mtume

I ain’t even with that.

Audience Member

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mtume

I don’t even have to listen to it. I can’t even get past that! Other people, what? Killing, what?

[laughter]

Audience Member

My other question is more of a technical question, in particular, regarding the mix of Juicy Fruit. You may have been asked this before, especially since it’s your first non-reverb record, which is kind of a groundbreaking concept –

Mtume

Yes.

Audience Member

– because we use reverb to hide imperfections, so to speak. But when everything drops out in the background vocals, you can lick me anywhere –

Mtume

Everywhere

Audience Member

Everywhere, excuse me. I’m a little nervous to ask you this question.

Mtume

There are some places you won’t lick.

[laughter]

Audience Member

No, no, no. I’ve been wanting to ask you this question for twenty years. The vocals get apparently louder. Almost to the point where you wonder, was that intentional?

Mtume

Yes.

Audience Member

Okay.

Mtume

Yes, sir.

Audience Member

You just solved a mystery that is –

Mtume

That’s a legitimate question, because when it drops out, usually you can drop stuff out and then it’s there. I put that in your face.

Audience Member

I was thinking, maybe it’s a limiter. You pushed it.

Mtume

I raised that. I want you to hear that.

Audience Member

That’s very heavy. I want to commend you for that. Thank you. It’s a great pleasure to talk to you.

Mtume

Hey man, it’s my pleasure.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Alright. Who else has a question?

Audience Member

This is a little bit convoluted, so bear with me. And thank you for being here as well, I should say to start off.

Mtume

My granddaughter loves your shirt. [laughs]

Audience Member

[laughs] Glad I could be of some service here today. When you’re talking about your use of the LinnDrum and it’s technology being a –I feel like this language is crude– but a human extension of your body –

Mtume

Yes.

Audience Member

– then earlier, you were talking about the many trips you made to Japan with Miles. That idea in Japan in traditional art is very prominent, the idea that technology is an extension of the body. Was that something you’re absorbing consciously, then, on those trips? Was that something that came through later in your work or is this just a more universal concept for you?

Mtume

I think it’s a combination of both. You’re raising a very interesting question for me. As I think about it and ponder what you’re saying, yes, very definitely. You have to understand the context. That clip that you saw that was played? That was 1972 or ’73. You can watch that now and it makes sense. This was completely off the wall back then. Not for the listeners. The people that would come, the young? They would be like, “I’ve never heard anything in my life like that.” The critics? “This is bullshit. Miles done lost his mind.” We had these two things, but I’m watching the guy play the trumpet through a wah wah pedal. Do you understand? Just that alone, and we’re all electrified. All this is happening. My drums were hooked up. I had phase shifters and all. I had the same equipment the guitar players had. I could go [makes electrical sound] and all of a sudden, you watching me play the congas and they sound like something else. We were forging ahead. I must say, I’ve never been asked that question, but definitely. Remember, not just coming to Japan, but that was a working band. We were traveling all over. The idea that we were all these guys committed to this sound, you just have to be open. You’ve just got to be like this [spreads his arms apart] and then find out if you’ve got it, or not. Again, because, ultimately, that question will be answered. You can only run but for so long, then your ego gets tired, then you’ve got to say, “Yo, maybe I don’t have this.” That’s a great question. Thank you.

Audience Member

Can I ask you another question? Were you more, as far as your drumming and percussion, were you more in the ’60s more on the Elvin Jones side?

Mtume

Where do you get these people, man? That’s a great question. That’s a great question because nobody has ever asked me that. I approached the instrument very differently. I don’t like conga players because, I feel, again, they’re so locked. Boom-boom-bop, boom-boom-bop, all that stuff. First of all, the cat that I come out of was a great percussionist, named Big Black. He used to play with Hugh Masekela, and Dizzy Gillespie, but the people that I molded my sound after was Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. so for you to go there, because most conga players don’t play ... I mean I can play in 5, 4, 7, I can do all that, and play it approaching it like a trap drummer. A guy told me once that I was scrambling eggs, he said, “But it’s the way you scramble them,” and Elvin was... you just play through it, modernize the instrument, modernize the approach. So, yes, I molded myself after Elvin and Tony Williams.

Audience Member

Were you into Rashied Ali, at all?

Mtume

Absolutely. I’ll tell you I was avant-garde, man. I’ve played gigs with more cats that was on the stage than was on the audience. Do you know what I mean? I mean it’d be four of us on the stage, and two of them in the audience, but you play to them like it was 2000. I really played that stuff. Some of it I don’t even believe, when I think about it. This one guy we used to play with, named Cailo Cailo, for some reason the student unions loved him in LA, so we used to get all these gigs. He was a trumpet player, but his thing was taking bottles, and busting them, onstage, and the place would go crazy. Glass flying. I said, “What am I doing?” Glass was flying all past me, but I was out there. So yes, I loved all the cats.

Audience Member

Right on. One more quick question. What was it like for Dave Liebman and the Band, in the ‘70s, with all you guys? Was he like part of the crew, or was he more kind of like on his own?

Mtume

No, he wasn’t ... you mean on his own like ... like was it apartheid?

Audience Member

Yes. No. No, no, no. Was it like everyone was cool? Was everybody like friends, and stuff?

Mtume

No. Dave, look, I loved his playing. Dave never really bought into that sound, but he fit so well. He enjoyed playing it, just like Keith Jarrett loved it. He just lied about it, when he got out of the band, talking about, “I had to play this electronic ...” You look at YouTube, you look, he’s just smiling. That’s one other reason I’m glad of YouTube, because he was a liar, and he was exposed. But Dave played his butt off, and I loved the way, but Dave was still coming more out of the traditional bebop. The rhythm section was totally behind trying to fulfill this dream, and this vision that Miles had.

Audience Member

That’s what I meant. That’s why I ask, because you guys were really far out, and he had more of a, I guess, per se, traditional; but he was very chromatic, still, in his playing.

Mtume

Dave is a bad man.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Sorry to interrupt. How did you and Al Foster maintain the sonic space, because he’s the drummer, you’re the percussionist; how did you not get in each other’s way?

Mtume

When Al first joined the band, Al was not there. Al came in right after On the Corner, and Miles had a meeting with me and Al, and what Miles did, he switched the roles. He said, “You follow Mtume.” I was the one that was free to play superimposed tempos, like sometimes we’re in four, I might play seven against it. I was totally free, and what he said was he said, “You’re my Tony.” He was talking about Tony Williams. If you see, he had me next to him because we were playing off of each other. I could have never had that experience playing. I mean it’s Miles, and he’s giving a percussionist basically the direction to take it wherever I wanted to go. That’s another great question. I’ve always appreciated Al, because Al’s a hell of a drummer. But Miles was clear, he just wanted the two and four.

Jeff “Chairman”

Who’s next?

Audience Member

There was a time when Local 802 and 47 were trying to stop drum machines from replacing people. Any comments, any thoughts on that whole era, that whole time?

Mtume

Stupid.

Audience Member

Stupid.

Mtume

Stupid. See, first of all, you don’t fight technology – you embrace it. It’s like fire, it’ll burn you, or you learn how to cook with it. But you cannot avoid it. Technology is real. Everything is a combination, as I’ve always said, of art and technology. So why would you fight reality? As we speak, everything is moving. The world is actually moving right now. We don’t feel it, but it’s on an axis, moving slowly, but everything is in motion. If you close yourself off to anything, how do you grow? Like I said, she’s going to hear something that none of us in this room can imagine. What will the kids 30 years from now hear? Maybe music will just be [taps his hand on the table] and we’ll all go, “Damn.”

[laughter]

Audience Member

How do we stop these crazy old men with huge funds? How do we stop them from imposing on our creative way of life?

Mtume

I don’t think you have to stop them. Look what you’re doing here. Look at Red Bull. I don’t know, they might be some crazy guys, but look what they put together. It’s where you’re coming from. This, to me, this is an extraordinary situation, and I was so happy. This is the man that quells my angst, because usually I get bored with interviews because they ask you stupid questions, “What color socks did you have on yesterday?” But –

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I’m going to cross that one off the list, right now.

Mtume

[laughs] But, again, they cannot fight change. Don’t let that affect you. Are you a musician? What do you play?

Audience Member

I play drum set.

Mtume

You don’t play oboe.

[inaudible comment from audience member]

Mtume

[laughs] I’m just teasing.

Audience Member

I’m a producer, firstly.

Mtume

Follow it, man. It’s all this. [places his hand to his heart]

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Who else has a question, in the back? Can we pass the mic, please?

Audience Member

Thank you, so much, for being here. It’s like the most insane body of work, ever. Just two things you touched on very briefly in the beginning, but the club scene, in New York, and things, and I’m just wondering if you can share any stories from there, like, Larry Levan was brought up. Were there any DJs that you were looking for, and how was that whole movement for you, obviously coming out of this sort of jazz background and things like that?

Mtume

I knew Larry, and then you had the Tunnel. There was a couple of different places. I was not a club guy. I went out occasionally to get a pulse to what people were listening to, but I was kind of at odds with the club scene because it was just getting, you know, New York had become so homogenized, man, and it was really effecting R&B. So, again, I wasn’t joking about beats per minute. We were really, it was getting ... I hated that bass line. Doon-dah, doon-dah, doon-dah... aw, come on, man, and everybody was doing club records.

You know, “Juicy Fruit” broke in the clubs. What’s the joint up in the Bronx? Disco Fever. I remember when we finished the mix, a gy named Scott Folks, who worked at Epic, we finished the 12”, he called me, on night. He said, “Man, I want to take you to this club. I want you to see the people’s response to ‘Juicy Fruit,’” because I never thought ... that’s the last thing I thought, was people would dance to it. He said, “Okay, I’m going to pick you up.” I said, “Well, what time, at 9 or ten?” He said, “What?” He said, “I’ll pick you up around three.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Three in the morning.” He said, “It ain’t even really happening until then,” and he said they usually play “Juicy Fruit” around somewhere between four and five. So I went with him, and I was just overwhelmed by the response because, again, when you’re creating something. Anybody that tells you, anybody tells you they know what a hit is, is a liar. You don’t know. You can only hope that what you felt, and you put in that record, translates, and other people feel the same way. Because if anybody knew that secret, they’d put it in a bottle, and sell it. You just know what you feel good about, but the club scene I really couldn’t comment, other than Disco Fever, and that was more hip-hop.

Audience Member

Another thing, just like when we were listening to “Juicy Fruit“ earlier reminded me of a track from Dr. John that he’d been playing at jazz set like a year later, in like 1984, and he obviously came from more of a blues background. Was he someone that you were familiar?

Mtume

Dr. John? Come on, man. Yes. Professor Longhair, Fats Domino, Allen Toussaint – come on now. You’ve got to go to all them schools, you know what I mean, with your ear. I’m a nerd when it comes to the music. It’s jazz, funk, R&B because the more you know, the more you can put in your box. Andd then when you put your thing on it, you’ve got more to draw from, it’s more information.

Audience Member

I think when I said “familiar,” I mean I obviously knew that you had probably have heard of him. [laughs] I mean is he someone that like... I’m just trying to piece it together in my head. You’d sort of followed a similar path at that time with the drum machine, like embracing that kind of technology. Was that something that you were aware of?

Mtume

The first time I used the drum machine was actually in 1980 or ‘81 on an artist that we were doing, called Marc Sadane. That was the 808, the Roland 808; so I had been messing around. Also, I was always into the synthesizers, the Fair Light, stuff like that, that was coming along, all the polyphonic synthesizers. If you listen to all my records after with Juicy on, I’ve just always been, how do you not deny it, so I’ve just always been tried to be in tune with that technology, always.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Mtume

My man. You all know I’m old. I’m going to have to take a nap, after this, man. [laughs]

Audience Member

On the subject of technology, you guys were talking about how you enjoyed Stockhausen’s work, and I have a hard time picturing something further apart than Stockhausen’s workshop at the WDR, and, let’s say, Yusef Lateef playing at the [Village] Vanguard. How did you guys actually appreciate it, or what was the environment you would actually consume this music in?

Mtume

Same environment I would consume Parliament Funkadelic; same environment I would consume Sam Cooke; same environment I would consume Modern Jazz Quartet. There is no separation, and that’s a great point you’re making because, for me, I’m shocked you would think it would require an environment. It’s all one. Like I said, I can put up “Tear the Roof off the Sucker,“ and then put on Stravinsky, “Rite of Spring.” What’s the difference?

Audience Member

Word. On that note ...

Mtume

Yes, you feel me? What’s the difference?

Audience Member

That’s you saying it.

Mtume

There you go.

Audience Member

You also mentioned Parliament. You had some heavy good duty cats on personnel, on Juicy Fruit, like Bernie Worrell was playing on there, as well; sax player, Gary Bartz. What was the contribution of these people to the song?

Mtume

First of all, I played with Gary Bartz in the NTU Troop. I played with Gary for about five years on and off, and he’s one of my favorite alto saxophones, period. Bernie Worrell and I became very good friends, and I actually started using Bernie on a Stephanie Mills project. These were not cats that I just called; these were cats that I admired, and I knew what they could bring to what I was trying to accomplish. Those were the connections on those, and I think you should always try to have heavyweights around you.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You produced Gary Barts, too.

Mtume

Yes, I forgot about that. I actually produced Music is My Sanctuary, I think. I forgot the name of the album.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

“Keep Going On,” right?

Mtume

Yeah. That song was on there.

Audience Member

If you’re trying to work with heavyweight cats like that, is that work for hire, or is everyone having a share in the proceedings?

Mtume

They were never in the band. The key components in that phase of the Mtume Band was Tawatha Agee, who was our lead singer, myself, keyboardist Philip Field , and bassist Raymond Jackson. But I would occasionally use other cats who were friends of mine, and also great musicians.

Audience Member

On the subject of heavyweights, though, for someone who has lived in the era, Smoking Joe, or Cassius Clay?

Mtume

I’m from Philly.

Audience Member

That answers that, I guess.

Mtume

Of course, I’ve got to give Joe, but Ali. Not just because of his boxing prowess, but because of what kind of man he was. I lived through that period when he was castigated for his position on the Vietnam War, and the three most productive years of his life was taken from him. So we’ll never know how great he really would have been, but what he left us was enough to study. Man, Ali. But Smoking Joe, man, you’re causing, I’m having a little confusion, man, because that’s hard. That’s hard. He was a great fighter, man.

Audience Member

Thanks. Can we get some COD?

Mtume

Oh, my God. Can we deliver?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You asked for it.

(music: Mtume – “C.O.D. (I’ll Deliver)”)

Mtume

You know, as that was playing, there’s something I wanted to mention, also, to those of you, as songwriters, and future producers. Find out what your timezone is. What I mean by that is we all write with a specific tempo that we’re most comfortable with. My tempo is mid-tempo funk. I mean I know that. Some people can get a higher tempo, or a slower tempo. Try to get in tune with what your tempo is, and that will speed your writing, and also improve it, and push it forward a great deal, because you don’t have to start messing... there’s a lot of it you’ll leave out. Like maybe I’m not a good ballad writer, so maybe I should concentrate on this. Find your internal tempo. That will be very helpful, as a writer and a producer.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I think it’s going to be the last question. Anything else after this, you can come up informally.

Audience Member

First of all, thank you so much for this inspirational lecture. I had one question. I heard the other day we had a lecture from Marley Marl, and he was saying about “Juicy” that he thought it was great, that his name was dropped in that song, and that new generations were exposed to him. So I really was wondering what your opinion is, or like your thoughts or view on that song, specifically, how new generations get introduced to your music. Do you think it’s like a good thing, or on the other side that people will only know, specific generations will only know about your music from that song?

Mtume

That’s a great question. No, I was never ... I was always just honored and pleased that another generation was open to anything I created. How can I say it? I don’t take my music personally, and I know that might sound strange. I’ve always been of the opinion the music doesn’t come from you, it comes through you.

Audience Member

I feel you. I feel you.

Mtume

You know, and just be glad that your antenna is high enough to pick up that signal, and you can present that music. I never think of... Because there’s too many great people that are out there that I came up under. So that would be ridiculously arrogant, so, no, I never... I’m just grateful that somebody appreciates it. If it only sold one copy, I would be thankful for that.

Audience Member

I can imagine. Thank you.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

We are very grateful that you were able to join us today, so let’s all say thank you to Mister James Mtume.

Mtume

Thank you.

[applause]