Rakim

Jeff Mao

Alright everybody, I know you had an in-depth, fascinating lecture this morning with Bernie [Worrell], but I’m sure we are gonna have another one presently. So our afternoon lecturer is, of course, one of the greatest to ever touch the microphone. It’s a great honor to welcome Rakim.

[applause]

Rakim

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Jeff Mao

Thank you so much for being here today.

Rakim

No doubt, man. Thanks for the welcome man, bro.

Jeff Mao

You know, sometimes I like to start these things by playing a little music just to get us reset after having been outside for the rest of the day or just coming back in from lunch or something like that. So, we are gonna play a little bit of music from Rakim just to attune our ears and we’ll begin right after this. So let’s listen to this...

(music: Eric B. & Rakim – “Don’t Sweat the Technique”)

[applause]

OK, so that’s “Don’t Sweat the Technique” from the album Don’t Sweat The Technique. What was it from from, 1990…?

Rakim

You’re asking me, man?

[laughter]

Jeff Mao

Um, 1993, I believe it is?

Rakim

’93, I think. ’92 was the single.

Jeff Mao

’92 is the single, I think you’re right. So, this particular song, just as an example… I think whenever anybody thinks about your artistry and your music they obviously think about lyrics. And I just want to get a window into, perhaps using this as an example… What the process was like for you. You know, something like this, the single off of a new album. In the early ‘90s, when you sat down to compose this, what went through your mind and what was it like?

Rakim

Well, this right here, I was a couple albums deep, and I felt at this point in my career, that a lot of MCs was gravitating to what I was was doing. So, you know, I was a little braggadocious on it. And just telling the other rappers, do what they do and don’t do what I’m doing, you know what I mean? And just trying to make that statement, you know? My style was my style. And again, I just felt a bunch of other MCs kind of gravitating to what I was doing and so that was my “Leave me alone” song. Leave my style alone, you know what I mean? Just basically self-explanatory.

Jeff Mao

Right. But at the time, I guess, the imitation of the art wasn’t flattery at that point for you, or that was your perspective. But what was it like to sit down? Do you recall even specifically, were you in the studio, were you at home when you were writing this?

Rakim

No. Most of the songs back then I wrote everything in the studio. We would make the beat, go to the studio and make the beat. I would go in the booth, get the notebooks, sit down and pen everything out right there. But that song, it didn’t really take too much, it didn’t take too much thought put into it. I was just telling all the MCs to back off, you know what I mean? And most of the time when I’d be in the studio, hear a beat, I just kind of let the beat tell me what to do. Just be here with, you know, hip-hop energy beat. Didn’t really have too much scenery on it, so I just felt that it was something that I could have some fun with. Just telling the other MCs to back off and do what they do. And this was one of them songs when I was kind of feeling myself, you know what I mean?

Jeff Mao

Well, as I said in the intro, a lot of us consider you the greatest. You know, how do you feel? Do you feel you’re the greatest?

Rakim

I’m one of my worst critics, man, but at the same time I do like to toot my own horn. [laughs] I’ve been doing this for awhile and and I kind of made my style. You know, agressive style, you know what I mean? I always felt that I was one step beyond what a lot of other MCs was doing. All MCs, we’re egotistical, man. We’re a little narcissistic, but just… Just feeling myself, man. Just knowing what it is, man, knowing that the road that I took, I like when I get them accolades, when people tell me… I don’t like to say too much myself, but if you catch me and I’m walking down the street by myself, I might be feeling myself like, “Yeah, look man, I’m the greatest ever, man.” But you won’t hear me saying it too much out of context, but it’s a blessing, bro. Word up!

Jeff Mao

Well, I might not think that you do when people talk about the history of hip-hop, the history of rap music, there really is a separation point. There is before Rakim and there’s after Rakim, because of the sophistication that you brought to the game. Where did that come from, though? Where did that come from within you? Because you had to have some sort of inspiration to try to increase the sophistication of the music and the lyrics.

Rakim

I don’t know. I think just my musical background, man. My moms and pops had a lot of good music going on in the house, man. And I think I always contributed to jazz music, man. I came up listening to a lot of jazz, and just listening to the different rythms that the jazz artists was using then, it was a little more complicated than hip-hop, you know what I mean? So me knowing that, once I started rhyming, and I had a couple of favorite jazz artists, like John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, and you know, Miles Davis, Dizzie Gillespie… But just listening to the rhythms that they was doing at that time. Once I got into hip-hop I tried to incorporate some of their rhythms in my flow. And, one of the main things I should try to do was imitate John Coltrane’s solos into my rhyme style, just trying to incorporate different rhythms that I heard comin’ up and trying incorporate what I knew into rap kind of made it what it was, and I guess, a little different than what everybody else was doing.

Jeff Mao

And, as you said, I mean, you had your family was full of people who really appreciated music and your brothers are musicians as well.

Rakim

No doubt. My brothers, both my brothers play instruments, my sisters sing, my mother sings from opera to jazz comin’ up, so it was always music in the house, and I can’t sing. But just hearing it in the house, man, just made me appreciate it to a higher level and just gave me that much influence in what I was doing.

Jeff Mao

Now, you grew up in Wyandanch, Long Island, outside the five boroughs of New York. What was it like out there?

Rakim

It was dope, man. It was like the best of both worlds, man. You know, coming from Long Island, it was a little different. You know, you could kind of stretch out, and it wasn’t as hectic as the city. But at the same time, being on the outside looking in gave me a different understanding of what was going on in the city. And just knowing that I was from Long Island and being a rapper on that note, you gotta be a little more flamboyant, you gotta be a little more extra… Not extra in the fake sense, but, you know, the competition in New York at that time, Long Island’s a little slower than New York. I mean, it took videos and time for different cities to catch up with other cities. Now, I mean by watching videos and hearing records, we know what goes on down South, we know what goes on in California, we know what’s going on across the East. But in ’86, it was a little slower than that. You had to go to the city and see what was going on in the city. So you know, knowing that they was faster than Long Island, I know I had to step my game up and just try to beat them to the punch. So for me, it kind of worked out on my behalf. Plus, it kept me out of a lot of trouble.

Jeff Mao

When did you first hear hip-hop on Long Island as a kid?

Rakim

Yeah. Early, man. Like, I remember being young hearing the Kool Herc tapes. By then, Kool Herc, man, back in the day. And then after that, we got the Cold Crush Four, the Fantastic Five, Grandmaster Caz, you know, Cold Crush… It was crazy, man. You know, being out there, again on the outside looking in, when I used to get these tapes I was amazed at hearing Kool Moe Dee and Grandmaster Caz and all these cats, man. So I put a little extra air on it ‘cause it it was like fried iced cream out there, man.

[laughter]

Rakim

I grabbed on to it, and here I go today, man. Red Bull, what up?

Jeff Mao

[laughs] Now, talking about live cassettes of hip-hop jams in the city, which were basically before they were hip-hop albums as what people passed around and listened to and learned from. Now, you mentioned three individuals who were heroes to you. Actually two, but you have mentioned three: Kool Moe Dee, Grandmaster Caz, and Melle Mel.

Rakim

Those cats right there kind of taught me to do this, you know what I mean? Listening to them. That was the blueprint, and they just made it easy to understand what a rapper was. You know what I mean?

Jeff Mao

What did you learn? If you could break down what you learned from each of them, ‘cause they had different styles, what what did you get from each one of those pioneers, those Bronx MCs, that influenced you?

Rakim

That’s a good question, man, ‘cause from Kool Moe Dee, you got the ferocious type of style, but at the same time, he was a conscious cat, you know? Moe Dee went to college and kind of incorporated what he was learning in college into his songs and you know you could tell right away by listening to his his metaphors, listening to his his four, five-syllable words, and the way he put things together, you know what I mean? And he was a beast too. I’m sure everybody heard the Busy Bee and Moe Dee [rap] battle. Moe Dee kind of enforced that ferocious type of MCing. Grandmaster Caz was like one of the wittiest cats that I heard. Like, his stories and his rhyme style was just, you know, you sat there like you would say, “Yo, this kid is nice.” But at the same time you would have this little smile on your face, ‘cause half the things he was talking about was half the things you wanted to do, and half the things you wanted to be, know what I mean? So, Grandmaster Caz, he was just a witty cat and you could tell sometimes when he rhyming, he got a smile on his face, you know what I mean? He just kind of made rap feel good, man. And Melle Mel, man… Melle Mel was like the lion of the game, man, you know what I mean? Man, the lion’s roar. And Mel, he was like a street poet then, you know what I mean? Like, the way he sing what was going on in the inner city, man, from “White Lines” to” “Jungle.” You know, “It’s like a jungle…,” you know what I mean? It’s like Melle Mel was the conscious rapper then, from political, to what he see goin’ on in the neighborhood, man. So I took my favorite MCs and kind of melted them down, and became all three of them, rolled up in one, know what I mean? You know, that’s what I came from, that’s what I knew, that’s what I thought rap was, and, you know, those are my dudes. So I kind of learned from them, word up.

Jeff Mao

And what was your first MC name?

Rakim

[sighs / laughs] Well… My first MC name was Kid Wizard, man. Kid Wizard, word up!

Jeff Mao

Kid Wizard?

Rakim

Kid Wizard.

Jeff Mao

Alright. Now, I actually have some Kid Wizard, here, so I’m going to play a little song…

Rakim

You got some Kid Wizard in there?

Jeff Mao

Yeah, we have a little Kid Wizard here.

Rakim

Say what! [laughs]

Jeff Mao

This is 1985.

Rakim

Let me see that, man. [laughs]

Jeff Mao

A little something from back in the day, 1985.

(music: Biz Markie & Kid Wizard – Wyandanch “High School Jam”)

Rakim

Wow!

[music continues]

There’s [Markie]. [laughs] [music continues]

Jeff Mao

OK, that’s Biz Markie, actually, and Rakim from 1985. I’m gonna pause this actually.

Rakim

’85 or ’83, man?

Jeff Mao

Well, you know what? The Internet says ’85, and the Internet’s been known to be wrong, so it could be ’83. But Wyandanch High School, do you remember this?

Rakim

Word up! Word up, and what’s dope is, Biz Markie used to always come out to Long Island, to our high school, man. He would come up in the school, and the security guards would try to kick him out, so I had a little juice, I was like, “Nah, nah, he good, man. He just came up here, I’m taking him to see the band teacher, man.” You know what I mean? Meanwhile, me and Biz back in the lunchroom, he beatboxin’ and I’m rhyming, man, it was dope, man. I met Biz, like early ‘80s, man. He came out to Wyandanch and had on some painted shell tops one day and I had the painted shell tops on. So I’m like, “Yo, dude, where you get them from?” And he’s like, “Yo, yo, where you get those from?” So I looked at him, you know what I mean? I thought his was right, I was like, “Yo, I painted these, man.” He was like, “Word up, I painted mine too! Where you get the paint from?” So we started talking, and before I know it, I found out he rapped, he found out that I rap. So we start kicking it, and made nothing of it. Couple weeks later, I see Biz walking up to the school. I’m like, “Yo, that’s that dude with the… What he got on today?” You know what I mean? But snuck him up in the school, and we started beatboxing then, and then from there, he’d come out to Long Island. I remember he took me to my first New York MC battle. He was like, “Yo, Raz, it’s on and poppin’, in Harlem.” So I went out there with Biz, man, and made some noise, man. But yeah, back then, man, like, I could sit down and write rhymes, and think of going to the high school parties, and going to the park parties, and things of that nature. You know, that’s where it came from, right there.

Jeff Mao

So this was just a party at the high school, basically. And it’s something that happened all around at the time, and somebody just happened to have the tape rolling for this?

Rakim

Word up! My man Bow Lou [Bowlegged Lou], he was actually in a couple of the Kid & Play movies. The kid Bow Lou that was DJing in that movie, he’s from Wayandance, he’s from my hometown. He started getting smart and started taping these things, man. Me and Biz we used to get in, and what’s crazy is Biz told me he has a bunch of tapes as well and it’s crazy, because I don’t have none of them. So, I’ll probably steal that from you before I cut out.

[laughter]

Jeff Mao

[laughs] Not a problem.

Rakim

[laughs]

Jeff Mao

Now, when you hear yourself rhyming like this, it’s you, but it’s also a different style. It’s the style of the day, it’s not the Rakim that we know.

Rakim

Word up. Came a long way, bro.

Jeff Mao

Yeah, but the one thing I want to… You know what? I’ll stick with this for a second because there’s something interesting on this song. This one piece. Let me just find it, here…

(music: Biz Markie & Kid Wizard – “Wyandanch High School Jam”)

Alright, so, you recognize that lyric right there?

Rakim

Yeah.

Jeff Mao

Now, explain for the people what that is. “I take seven MCs, put ‘em in a line.”

Rakim

Well, basically that whole concept right there came from my name, my government name is 777, you know what I mean? And I came out the three sevens and just started doing different rhymes off of it. And that one there was funny because that’s when [we were] battlin’ at the park, battlin’ at the high school, battlin’ in Harlem, so I started incorporating battle rhymes and this right here, most of that was freestyle. Whenever I’d get down with Biz we’d just rhyme off the top of the head. And then you’d throw a couple joints you had made already in there. But that’s when I was starting to do a lot of battle-rapping, and that seven-MC theory just came in the click, you know?

Jeff Mao

But that’s one of the most famous lyrics in hip-hop history, especially from your catalogue. That lyric, for people who don’t know, is from the song “My Melody”, which is the b-side of Eric B. & Rakim’s first single and often quoted, endlessly quoted, “I take seven MCs and I put ‘em in a line.” But yeah, you had this already, at least a year before.

Rakim

No doubt.

Jeff Mao

So I just think this is interesting, something that was in a high-school jam, but then became this iconic lyric.

Rakim

No doubt, no doubt. It’s one of them things that I figured had some value to it, so I brought it with me from my old style to converting into the Rakim we know now, man. But it’s just ill that we can look back and hear things like this, as far as I’m concerned. Because for me, it tells you where I came from and tells you where I started. You know, it’s not too far from where anyone starts, but it’s how much you want it and how much you want to take it to the next level. To me, this is like good to play for a new artist that may not think you’re good enough or may think you got to come out just be the best person in the world or you got to quit. Nah, man, I came out just as a regular dude but I loved it so much, I just… You know, I tried to get better, man, and luckily I did.

Jeff Mao

How did you begin recording? How did you meet Eric B.?

Rakim

Well, it’s funny man. This was at the point… It’s funny because I thought I was going to be a football player, bro. But this is at the point where I was about to go to college. This cat on my football team, Alvin Tony, brought Eric B to the crib. And he was like, “Yo, this is Eric B., he’s looking for an MC.” And me being a little arrogant dude, I am sitting there looking at Eric B., like, “Yo Al, I am about to go to college to play football, man. Why you be bringing this dude over? I told you don’t be bringing nobody to the crib, man.” He’s like “He knows [Mr.] Magic and Marley Marl,” you know what I mean? So I was like, “Alright.” And I had a tape that I made. So when I went to college and MCs started beefing I could just put my tape there. And I was at the point that I was not going to rhyme, if someone starting beefing, I was just going to put my tape there. You know what I mean? So I let Eric B. hear to that tape. He was like, “Yo man, I know Magic and Marley, you know, we can go make a record,” such and such. And at that time I wasn’t really 100% on making a record. ‘Cause I’d been rapping for so long at that time, I kind of wanted to play football, man. So I told Eric that I didn’t really want to do it. So he was like, “Yo, we could do it where you don’t have to sign a contract.” That’s why, if you’ve ever seen the first record, it was “Eric B. featuring Rakim.” You know, featured, where you don’t have to sign no contract. I was just a featured artist. You know, I stopped growing and the record did good. So maybe it’s good that Eric B. knocked at the door. You know what I mean? You know, it’s a blessing, 25, 26, 27 years later maybe we can talk about that transition.

Jeff Mao

Right. Now, you recorded this at Marley Marl’s, his house in Queensbridge.

Rakim

No doubt, that’s right. Queensbridge.

Jeff Mao

In his apartment. Now, what happened when you went in to deliver the rhymes? Because Marley is there, Eric B. is there, right? Was Eric B. there? Or was it just Marley?

Rakim

Yeah, me, Eric B.

Jeff Mao

And MC Shan.

Rakim

Well, Shan actually came later. We would get up in Marley’s house and we hooked a beat up. Marley helped us program the beat. And then we were sitting on a couch similar to this right here, chillin’, you know what I mean? 17 years old, sitting on a couch, you know what I mean? I definitely appreciated being in Marley Marl’s crib, you know what I mean? Chillin’. When it came time for me to start rapping, you know, the studio was just like this. It had a couch in it. Marley’s equipment was over here. He had to wheel the wheels right in front of me. The couch is right here. He handed me the mic… [Rakim starts rapping] “Turn up the bass, I got my melody…” And he’s like, “Yo man, why don’t you stand up a little bit?”

[laughter]

I said, “For what?” He was like, “You know, put a little more energy into it.” I was like, “Nah man, I don’t want no more energy in it. I’m trying to, this how I want it to be, right here.” So he turned around and said, “Alright.” So we start recording again. I do like two verses, and then all of the sudden, Shan comes into the room. So Marley turns to talk to Shan for a quick minute. Then Shan turns to me, “Yo, you think you can put a little more energy into it?” I was like, “Yo Shan, come on, man. Don’t nobody tell you how to rhyme, right?” He stopped and looked. I was like, “Listen, man, why don’t ya’ll just let me finish what I’m doing, listen to it and then, if we need to do something to change something up then we’ll take it from there.” But I said, “Just let me finish just doing what I’m doing first, man.” And luckily Marley being patient, because he could have said, “Yo man, go ahead, man,” you know what I mean, “Beat it.” But luckily he was patient, he let me finish it. Shan let me finish the way I wanted to do. And as they started listened to it they started to get it. But it took a couple weeks later for it to come out on the radio. And then they hear it on the radio. We did a show together and I just remember walking up to the backstage and Shan and Marley were standing there looking at me. I’m walking across the parking lot and I look up and they looking, like, “What the fuck is he looking at?”

Jeff Mao

[laughs]

Rakim

When I get up to them they look at me start smiling and say: “Yo, we get it now, man. We see what you was trying to do.” And I was like, “Oh, OK,” you know what I mean? But it’s just a blessing again, that Marley was patient and let me do what I wanted to do the way I wanted to do. That’s what got me here today.

Jeff Mao

Right, so let’s listen to a little bit of your first single then, alright? “Eric B. Is President,” 1986, featuring Rakim.

(music: Eric B. & Rakim – “Eric B. is President”)

[applause]

Was this an answer record to the Janet Jackson record? I always wanted to ask you this.

Rakim

Oh, you know, every little kid back then ’86 was feeling Janet Jackson, man. So… [pause] Get a chance to make a Janet Jackson reference, it’s like maybe she’ll hear it, know what I mean?

Jeff Mao

[laughs]

Rakim

You know what I mean? I always incorporated little song titles or song phrases in my songs, man. What’s dope though, is that I did actually meet Janet Jackson, man. She came to one of the shows out in California, man. We spoke about that, man, know what I mean? No doubt. Now, you know, it was a confirmation at that point man, that people was listening.

Jeff Mao

What about, “You thought I was a donut, you tried to glaze me”?

Rakim

Just trying to be witty, you know, and…

Jeff Mao

[laughs]

Rakim

You know what I mean? And I ain’t gotta tell you I had a Dunkin’ Donuts fetish back in the day. I used to get a dozen donuts every day, man.

[laughter]

So it was like, [laughs] it was one of the things that was on my mind. I was probably eating one like…

[laughter]

Know what I mean? But, you know, just having fun with it, man. When I sit down with some rhyme today I don’t have too much stuff in my studio ‘cause I don’t want nothing to give me tunnel vision. I like to stare at the wall and just see what I wanna see, man. I see whatever I see, man. Whatever I think of at the time, whatever I’m doing, whatever I’m feeling, whatever’s going on in the world, I try to incorporate as much reality or as much of what I’m doing or how I’m living into it. Word up.

Jeff Mao

I mean, listening to this now after you’ve making reference to listening to John Coltrane and other jazz artists, I mean, you really understand the fluidity of your flow. It’s really something unique.

Rakim

No doubt, no doubt. Thank you.

Jeff Mao

That’s another thing I wanted to ask you about, the importance of opening lines when you write. There’s another iconic opening line, right? “I came in the door, I said it before.” You have this throughout all this material, you know? You can almost look at every one of your songs [and] it’s a classic that people know, and there’s something from right out the opening bars that grabs you.

Rakim

Uh huh.

Jeff Mao

And I wonder if that’s something that you honed consciously.

Rakim

Purposely, um… You know, I just used to always thought, if I can grab their attention from the first couple bars, then they’ll listen to the rest of the song, you know what I mean? I don’t know, the beginning of a song where the first thing you say on a song is almost – and that’s every song – is almost like your first impression. You know what I mean? So I just always try to start it off strong, or start it off with like a little complicated pattern of words, or complicated pattern, just to wake the listener up. You know, just grab their attention from jump.

Jeff Mao

What was the, uh… This single was obviously a huge hit, what was the process of making the first album, Paid In Full, like for you?

Rakim

Actually, man, it was organic man, you know? Never made an album before, never seen nobody make an album. Just by listening and paying attention to what I heard and more than that, trying to paint my picture, you know what I mean? A lot of the joints we did, every now and then me and Eric B., we was sitting in my mom’s basement… My mom has like a whole wall with nothing but records, record shelves and all that. And once he seen me walking over to the shelves and grabbing a couple joints before I went to the studio, he would go there and look through. But it’s funny, he would uh… Like I went and picked out James Brown for “Eric B. is President.” And he would go over there and pick out “[Over] Like A Fat Rat.” And I would start laughing, like, “What you gonna do with that, man?” “Yo I’mma put the bassline, I like the bassline.” “That ain’t gonna fit on that, that’s James Brown, man!” It worked for some reason then. But again, then, we had no directions and there was no certain way we was supposed to make it, you know? We was both new at doing what we was doing, and we just kinda did what we felt was hip-hop.

Jeff Mao

I mean, it’s obviously a classic album, and you went from working with Marley to kinda doing it yourself too.

Rakim

Yeah.

Jeff Mao

Was that intimidating at all?

Rakim

Nah, because, what Marley did for us, we created ourselves, he just sampled it for us. Like say, I brought the James Brown record, Eric B. grabbed “Over Like A Fat Rat” for the bassline. And the melody, I used to rhyme off “Risin’ To The Top” in the park all the time. So that was kinda like makin the “Risin’ To The Top” bassline over with the melody. So basically, he just programmed what we needed done. But even doing the first album, I didn’t know how to sample yet. One of the engineers named Patrick Adams, I used to go to the studio and be like, “Yo, Pat, listen. I need [gestures to desk] this part right here mixed with that part right there.” And my man Pat for me would loop it up, you know, flip it up for me and do what I needed done. And then shortly after that, Paul C, one of the producers from back in the day that I put on the back of my album, he passed away, rest in peace, he started teaching me how to use the SP-1200, and then after that it was a wrap. You know, a lotta people don’t know I made a lot of the beats. A lotta people think Eric B. did them, but no, I did a lot of them myself, man. But just getting into it, man, learning, you know how to make beats, how to make a record, how to create in the studio, it started to come a little more natural to me. Word up.

Jeff Mao

I want to also play something else from the Paid In Full era, just because, I think lyrically it’s something that’s really worth kind of dissecting a little bit, and talking about. So everybody’s heard this song before but we’re gonna hear it again, ‘cause you can’t really hear it too many times.

(music: Eric B. & Rakim – “I Know You Got Soul”)

[applause]

This might be the first time you got applause for just listening to your own record.

Rakim

There you go. [laughs]

Jeff Mao

[laughs] Not actually performing it. Well, you know, this song is really special, I think, in the respect that… I mean it’s almost a motivational speech. It’s about self-esteem, and I think that was something, pretty special, particularly for hip-hop. What was your motivation in writing this?

Rakim

I guess, you kinda hit it on the head, man. You try to inspire people, you know what I mean? It’s like, putting the power in the listener’s hands, letting them know they got it, you know what I mean? And that’s what I’ve been doing from day one, man. Like the “Paid in Full” song is actually the same thing, letting everybody know, get they business together, get out there and do what you gotta do to take care of yourself, you know what I mean? But “I [Know You] Got Soul,” and James Brown is still one of my favorite artists of all times, man. You know, being able to take that record and flip it. Use the main phrase from the song and just kinda add on to it and bring a little more meaning to it, and hopefully the listener can use it as gas and inspire them. But basically, that’s what I was trying to do.

Jeff Mao

And the other thing about this record, I mean, the thing about this record also is, I mean, so many hooks of other songs came out of this one single song, because it was an acappella version on 12” and people sampled it and used it for all sorts of different stuff. But in addition, you write about writing. And you write about the process for you, you know?

Rakim

No doubt.

Jeff Mao

You put yourself in a place, where there’s imagery, and I wonder if you could sort of go into that a little bit, about…

Rakim

Well, I don’t know if… I just always kinda let the song tell me what to do. You know what I mean? Using what I love the most, you know, I spoke about the boroughs, you know what I mean? Always love New York, always try to inspire New York to just be who we are, man, you know what I mean? Saying things like, “It ain’t where you from, it’s where you at,” just trying to inspire and tell people to want more. You know, want better for theyself, even if they listening to hi-hop, you know what I mean? Just, we important too, man, you know? That was my thing, just always trying to inspire people, and at the same time try to inspire artists that listen, and want to become artists. I always wanted to inspire my peers, you know what I mean? And we was just always, just trying to, I don’t know if it’s prove a point or being accepted in music, you know what I mean? But I was just always trying to paint a picture and inspire people, and uplift. Things to that nature.

Jeff Mao

I mean, it’s a creative sort of struggle that I think anybody in the room can relate to, whether they’re a producer, or a vocalist, a writer, when you say: “I’m trapped in-between the lines, I escape when I finish the rhyme,” you know?

Rakim

No doubt, that’s how I used to feel, sometimes, man. Sometimes you want to say so much, you don’t want to lose the thought. I used to put myself in the hole, sometimes. Say, a word and can’t find nothing to rhyme with it, you know what I mean? And that was the feeling I used to get, kinda trapped in between the lines, looking for another word. And again, once I finished the rhyme, it’s like I’m free again, you know what I mean? But, you know, just letting the music take me through a journey, man, and hoping that the listener can see that and take the same journey with me.

Jeff Mao

You know, like you said, there’s been a lot of messages in your lyrics about empowering the listener, and uplifting. But did you ever get concerned that end of that would be lost on listeners, too? Who would only look at, for example, you guys profiling on the Paid In Full album cover, being hip-hop stars? You know, with the Dapper Dan suits, and the cash and stuff like that. Even though “Paid in Full,” the song, was about something much deeper.

Rakim

No doubt. Well, that’s the thing. We, myself, I didn’t glorify what I was wearing too much. Every now and then you’ll hear me say something, “My fat gold chain,” or boom, boom, boom, but it was more what we was pointing at with the music. People understood that we was fashionable, at that time. I don’t know if it was comin’ from the Grandmaster Flash era, where they wore leathers and spikes, to my era where we started wearing what people in the streets was wearin’. And when I came out, like all the players, like if you went to a party back at that time, if you went to the Latin Quarter… I don’t know if you want to call them ballers then or whatever, but anybody that was let’s just say chillin’, had on what we was wearin’ and the colors on. Once I found out about Dapper Dan, that was a whole new universe, you know what I mean? I went to see Dap and I walked up in the spot and I was like, “Yo, man, let me get one of those, one of those, one of those,” and that right there kind of helped the fashion thing, too, man. I think our music spoke a little louder than what we was wearin’, because it was more forward, man. You know, the clothes back then, people was wearin’ them and it wasn’t that big as fashion today, and how much the little kids want to get what everybody was wearin’ today. Back then it was just like you got it, you got it, if you don’t, you got another hot thing, if not, you know what I mean? I don’t know, man, I think it was just more expressing ourself. Word up.

Jeff Mao

That era is always referred to as a golden era. At the time, did you feel it was a golden era?

Rakim

Not at all, man. At the time we was hopin’ we was doing justice for what Melle Mel, and Grandmaster Caz and Kool Moe Dee started. It was young then, there was no directions. A lot of my songs, I used to rhyme for like, I don’t know, 40 bars. There was no format. Now it’s like 16 bars a song, you know 16 bars, hook, 16 bars, hook. It’s changin’ a little bit lately, but we basically did what we wanted, man, what we thought was right. Luckily, we kind of preserved it to get to this point, but it’s more of an expression of yourself, man. That’s the beauty of hip-hop.

Jeff Mao

And who were the people at the time, your contemporaries, who you felt you were measuring yourself against. Who were the people you really respected at that time?

Rakim

Well, around my generation, at that time, I was never comparing myself with Melle Mel, Caz and all them. But I compared myself with my peers at that time. Big Daddy Kane, Run DMC, you know, I came like right after Run and then blew up. Kool G Rap. Then you know, we had the West Coast, N.W.A. poppin’ off shortly after, you know what I mean? So it was starting to grow at that point, where you know, it was expanding from New York to Cali[fornia], but what was good about it at that point was that the originality of hip-hop was strong then. Everybody felt, like anybody that was doin’ something that somebody else was doin’, you know, you lost your, your ghetto card, man. It was something we was goin’ through, everybody was tryin’ to make their own identity, we didn’t really care what the next artist was doin’. You know, everybody wanted to sound different, you know what I mean? We kept in mind what hip-hop was but to sound similar or to say anything similar to another MC was a no-no, man. So, that’s one of the things we gotta grab hold again, man. It kind of changed now where everybody wants to be on the common page, speak about common things, that a lot of rappers is talking about. Maybe we can blame that on the labels, but I think at the end of the day, the longevity is the people that’s a little different in what they do, and bring something different to the table. That’s what I think lasts longer, man.

Jeff Mao

You mentioned, just like the format of writing has changed in hip-hop over the years, where it was kind of more freeform, you weren’t really held hostage to song choruses and things like that, you know? At what point… Was that an adjustment for you that was hard to make at a certain point?

Rakim

Not too much, ‘cause at the end of the ‘80s, you know, I came out in ’86, at the end of the ‘80s, you know, my second album it became more formatted, you know what I mean? It made it a little easier for me in a way because, again, I was writing 40-bar first verses, you know what I mean? So when someone was like, “Yo, just do 16,” I was like, “Word?” You know, it made my job easier. Sometimes a little harder to cram all my information into 16 bars, you know, that was my hardest problem, saying what I wanted to say before I had to stop and let the hook play. You know what I mean? But we move with the game and try to stay relevant, but don’t change up as far as too much, where you came from, and what the original format of hip-hop is, I try to stay focused with it.

Jeff Mao

Do you have specific kind of structures that you rely on as a writer? Like rhyme structures?

Rakim

Yeah, I kinda… On busier beats, like if the beat got a lot of energy to it, I try to create a style within that song, within the rhythms of it, you know what I mean? I try to accent off of certain hits that I hear in the music, you know what I mean? I just try to do new things so when the listener hears it the first time he might not hear it, fourth, fifth time he might not hear it. But after the tenth time then they gonna start catching onto little things that I put into it, or little clues, or little rhyme patterns that, I might start a word here, finish it here, and four bars later I might rhyme to that with the same format. So, I like to do little things to see if the listener’s paying attention, or put something in there, so later on they can recognize and realize he puttin’ little codes or saying little things or flippin’ little styles in the music. It’s almost like lookin’ for treasures. Keep findin’ sh—.

Jeff Mao

Is there an example of that? Of something that you might wanna play?

Rakim

Well, a lot of my songs I do it on. If it’s referencing something that I’ve said in an old song, or just, again, freakin’ a style, man. But I’m not sure which one I did it to at this point because I do it to so many. But listening to a song I could probably tell you, “Yo, man. If you rewind that again and play it again watch how I did this hear and came back and did this here.” But it’s just little things we do. A lot of people don’t recognize it, but the hip-hop heads, the true listeners they kinda start pickin’ up on it. I notice a lot of MCs be pickin’ up on it though, you know what I mean?

[laughter]

Jeff Mao

I want to actually play something from… I don’t want to totally skip Follow The Leader, but I wanna also just keep things moving. [shows on laptop] Can we play this? This is from your third album, from 1990, and again, starts off with an opening line that’s very memorable, but also goes in different places maybe you can talk a little about it after we hear it. This is “In the Ghetto” from 1990, Eric B. & Rakim.

(music: Eric B. & Rakim – “In the Ghetto”)

[applause]

So, take us back. What was going on with you when you wrote this? One of, one of the greatest, I think, of your works.

Rakim

Well, I was going through a lot at that time, man. My pops passed away, you know what I mean? And I was at the point where I ain’t know if rap made sense at that time, you know what I mean? Pops had a lot to do with me being the type of person I am, man, and he was young when he passed away too, you know what I mean? So, going through that, man, and trying to make sense out of hip-hop, I kind of stopped listening to music for a couple of months. And when I finally put a beat on and picked up the pen, I wrote this right here, man. It was kinda therapeutic, but I guess, after that happening, it made sense for me to make a conscious record, you know what I mean? And it didn’t deal too much with my father, but it made sense for me to… It was therapeutic, man, you know? I mentioned I was glad I listened when my father was rappin’ to me, and that was, like, the phrase that let you know that, you know what I mean? That was for my pops, man. But I was going through a crazy time, man, and nothing made sense at that point, man. But luckily, this helped me kinda get back into writing and loving writing rhymes again.

Jeff Mao

I mean, the vibe of it is so strong and emotional that you didn’t have to say more than that.

Rakim

[nods] Word up, word up.

Jeff Mao

And the song takes you so many different places. You know, from one verse to the next.

Rakim

No doubt, no doubt. I guess, at that point I was taking a trip through my feelings on life, some of the things that was bothering me, you know, some of the things that was good with me, you know what I mean? Just putting things in perspective, I guess, trying to make sense of what I was doing as an artist. Again, it was a lot going on. I was supposed to go to Africa just before my pops passed. To make a long story short, I cancelled the tour and… You know, just kinda sat in the house for about two months, staring at the walls, and trying to figure out what I wanted to do, man. But again, Paul C came through, and it was crazy ‘cause he knew somebody that I knew, and he told him, “Yo, tell Rakim I’m trying to get some beats outta him.” So I really didn’t pay too much attention to it, and somebody else that I seen told me the same dude was trying to get some beats outta me. So I called him up, they gave me his number, I called him up, he told me, “Yo Ra, I’m a producer, such and such, I got some joints for you.” So I was like, “Where you at?” He said: “I’m in Queens.” Went out to his crib, and this is one of the songs he played, you know what I mean? So, it made sense to me, it kinda sparked a fire, and again, it was therapeutic, man. I dunno.

Jeff Mao

I mean, compositionally, one of the things that stands up to me is you use, “It ain’t where you’re from it’s where you at,” in different ways at the end of each verse.

Rakim

Word up, word up. Again, like, “It ain’t where you from it’s where you at,” was a phrase from another song. But it was just one of those things that I felt I had to elaborate on, man. And kinda point at it a little more, and get people to kinda absorb it a little more, you know what I mean? And then, if you look at it today, it’s more relevant now than it was then. With all the adversity of rap, you know, down-South rap, West Coast rap, Midwestern, you know… All the feuds is, New York artists can’t stick to the New York sound, you gotta lot of New York artist doing down-South rap now. But it ain’t where you from, it’s where you at. And if you’re in a good place, man, make music from your heart and it won’t have no boundaries, man. New York will love it, down South will love it, Cali will love it, you know what I mean? And the main thing about it is you being you and stick to your guns, people will kind of appreciate that as well, man. So if there’s any artists out here, speak from the heart, do what you do, don’t let nobody tell you how to do it, and I think you know, you’ll appreciate what you’re doing and I think the listener will too.

Jeff Mao

But those are things that you must have found also just from touring the world and nation just the first time around, because there’s…

Rakim

Yeah. You know what I mean, I went on tour in ’86, and it opened me up not only to reality, man, but it opened me up to hip-hop too, man. How people in other places looked at hip-hop, or perceived it or, getting on stage, doin’ different songs, seeing how different states appreciated different types of songs, you know what I mean? And you get a little smarter and you start catering to what they told you they like, you know what I mean? But the main thing was is, being out of state, being in all these different places, that’s when you realize, it ain’t where you’re from, it’s where you at. You could be from the baddest city in the world, but if you ain’t handling your business or acting accordingly, they can either disregard you or… Know what I mean? But you gotta respect, man, what you doin’ and where you at and what the moment is about, you know what I mean? Word up.

Jeff Mao

Eric B. & Rakim made four albums, and you took a little hiatus, and came back in 1997. Now, I interviewed you in 1997, and I remember at the time there was this whole buzz, Rakim was back and he was gonna save hip-hop. In 1997 people were saying this, you know?

Rakim

No doubt.

Jeff Mao

And I just want to know what your feelings were to have that sort of be put, placed on you; that sort of talk and expectation, and chatter.

Rakim

Well, looking at it, it’s a good feeling to have that people expect you to do something that’s so important, you know what I mean? You know, it’s a good accolade to have, but I think hip-hop, I don’t think one artist could save it at that time because it was so diverse. I would have had to make an album that was New York-orientated, down-South-orientated, because at that time fixing it for New York don’t mean I fixed it for down South, don’t mean I fixed it for California, don’t mean I fixed it for these other places, you know? But again, man, just knowing that people hold you at that stature, man, and expect so much from you, that was half my fuel, man. Like, people used to always ask me, “Being regarded as one of the greatest MCs, is that pressure?” I used to be like, “Nah, I’d rather be known as one of the best, rather than not known at all.” It’s harder for a new rapper to come out and prove himself than, you know, a rapper they sayin’, “OK, he got accolades.” And that kinda just helped me, you know, be who I was and do what I needed to do, you know what I mean?

Jeff Mao

At the same though, I mean, those are tough expectations to try to live up to for any single person.

Rakim

No doubt. But again, I’ve been doing that all my life. After the first couple albums, it was “The number one MC,” and, “He can’t do that again, he can’t do it again on his last album.” And you know, really, your first impression as an artist, it’s always hard to outdo your first album, you know what I mean? But that’s the first thing, when I started my second album, the first thing I heard was, “Oh, you gotta outdo the first album.” So, I been kinda going against them challenges my whole career, man. And going against myself is like the hardest thing to do, beating myself, you know what I mean? So I just always just try to do what I felt was relevant and always try to take it to the next level, and not get caught up with giving them another Paid in Full album, you know what I mean? You gotta make sure you can grow a little bit. But again, man, as far as save hip-hop, it’s something that I think hip-hop as a whole gotta do. It comes from the record labels, it comes from the radio stations with what they’re playing. It comes from the artists being able to be free, you know what I mean? Like, I can get the bullhorn and tell everybody what I think it should be all day. But it’s gonna take somebody else to say, “Yo, he right,” and somebody else to say, “Yo, word up I think we all should…” You know what I mean? It’s the majority now, but you can put that on me again, man. If the world asks me to save hip-hop, I’ll go home and start writing that album. [laughter] You know what I mean? It’s not like I’m trying to stop war, it ain’t that serious! But again, man, to have certain accolades is a blessing, man. And again, I’d rather have them than not have them.

Jeff Mao

What are your reflections on another period after this one I just mentioned. You were signed to Dr. Dre’s Aftermath label and unfortunately it didn’t work out. What are your reflections on that? I mean, there was probably unrealistic expectation for that as well.

Rakim

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Mao

Because of the two of you, these musical giants being paired together.

Rakim

Word up. I think with that right there, it was definitely a learning experience for me. I think what I learned more, I lived in California for like three years and just watching California and knowing what kind of music they vibe to and knowing what they was about helped me write more universal songs. I look at California, their whole coast… You can go triple platinum in California on the coast alone. So they are a big part of hip-hop, you know what I mean? So being able to live out there and really see how they was living, it just opened my pen up a little bit. But as far as me and Dre… Once we got together we started realizing how different we was. And to try and get on the same page was more complicated than we thought. Know what I mean? Like a beat come on, we’d listen to the beat, I’m already seeing what I want to do but then Dre might go, “Yo, I want you to do such and such and such and such on this one.” And I’m like, “Come on Dre, been there, did that already, man.” But we started realizing that it’s like night and day. Dre’s formula… If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Well, at that point he was loving gangster rap, you know, rap is beef. At that point I figured I did that already, it was time to move on and just make good music. Every time we sit down a beat would come on, started listening to the beat, “What you want to do, Dre?” “Well, just…” – [looks to Jeff Mao] I can curse, right? – “Just talk sh— on this one.” [whispers] “Ah, come on man.” You know what I mean? And I also felt like, I didn’t really have to beef with my peers. He wanted me to kind of set it off and brag about who I was and what I did. But at that point I felt like they already know, man. And for me to brag about it would take points away from what I did and what I’m doing, but… I’m glad that he hollered at me. You know, I’m glad that he had a vision with me in mind. I thanked him for that but we just couldn’t find a medium where he was happy and I was happy with either the direction or the topic, or what he wanted me to say to a certain beat or you know what it was, man. The thing about Eric B…. Eric B. was more like I’d say, “I’m doing this on that,” and he’d be like, “Yo, go ahead.” That’s one thing that was cool about Eric B., he never tried to detour my thought or say what I should be saying on a record, left that totally up to me. But I wish Dre the best, man. And maybe in the future we could do a single or something just to show people what it’s supposed to be or give them what they expected, but you know you never know.

Jeff Mao

Well, it’s interesting what you mentioned about Eric, because I think at a certain time people it was very fashionable for people to bash Eric and say, “What did he really contribute to the group?” But what you’re saying is important.

Rakim

No doubt. Sometimes that’s, more than anything.

Jeff Mao

Yeah. Maybe you can just describe your working relationship, and how that unit was so strong for a number of years.

Rakim

Word up. Sometimes just giving an artist freedom is more than anything else you can give him. I was always a particular artist, I didn’t want to say what anyone was saying at the time. I didn’t want to do what anybody was doing at the time. So I was always a particular artist, but the thing about Eric B., man, is, when I met him he understood that… I already had a vision, and he helped me bring it to life. If it was a beat we did together, I would put a piece down, he would put a piece down, and then once I went in the booth sometimes he would go out into the lobby or order some food or jump on the phone. It was never like, you know, coming in, look at the notebook, checking to see what I’m doing. It was freedom and l definitely appreciate him for that. Definitely for that. He brought me into his workspace, you know what I mean? He knew Marley, he knew Magic, but still, when it came to studio time he trusted me to do and say what I felt, man. So big up Eric B., word up.

Jeff Mao

Does Rakim ever get writer’s block?

Rakim

Yeah, but I don’t call it writer’s block. [laughs] You know I mean? It’s just sometimes when you’re working, I write from the heart and from experiences. So sometimes I might get to a point where the pen starts slowing down; I just put it down and go live a little more, you know what I mean? Go, might sit down watch a little TV, ESPN or watch the news, and then go back and then finish the song. You know, I think every writer gets writer’s block, but I try to fake myself out to not believe in writer’s block, man. ‘Cause your expression is what you live, man, what you see, so when that pen slow down you gotta go see more, go live more. So that was my thing. Nah, I never had writer’s block, bro. Never. Never. [laughs]

[laughter]

Jeff Mao

Is it still with with loose leaf [paper] and pen?

Rakim

All day, all day, know what I mean? I freestyle around the house all day, like, I make beats. While I’m making a beat, I play with it and freestyle to it. And if it’s heavy, if it’s something with substance to it, then I go ahead and kinda take the style that I was freestyling with, ‘cause whenever I have the beat first, it’s a rhythm that I hear from the beat and then I’ll kinda know how I’m supposed to rhyme to it so I start creating a style just freestyling to it. And then, when I start writing I’ll write in that style ‘cause that’s the style that goes perfect with that record or whatever.

Jeff Mao

So it’s almost like a reference, vocal reference for yourself.

Rakim

Yes, sir.

Jeff Mao

So you’re not one of these guys like nowadays who uses their thumbs and types in the lyrics on their phone or anything like that?

Rakim

Aw, I can’t see, man. [laughter] I’m too old for that, bro. I need big piece of paper with a sharpie on it, you know what I mean? But see, I wrote on a computer, things of that nature, man. But writing for so long, it don’t feel right, you know what I mean? I like a piece of paper, I like a pencil with a eraser on it, you know what I mean? It just feels natural, man. But you try to get with the times and use the modern technology as much as possible, man, but notebook and pen is my favorite.

Jeff Mao

Actually, before we started the lecture we were talking a little about you being on tour and seeing new generations of people appreciating your music who were not even around the first time it was released. And I just wonder, how does it feel to know that literally there are rappers named after you who are out here? ASAP Rocky, for instance; they’re out here, and their parents were the ones who were your fans, and now they are the rappers of today. What does that feel like?

Rakim

It’s like confirmation. It’s like… I don’t know, man, ‘cause it’s surreal, you know what I mean? This is entertainment, man, and I got a son named Jabbar and I kinda got his name from Kareem Abdul Jabbar. And a lot of us give our kids name of people that we love and respect, and for somebody to do that it kinda let me know how serious it is. It lets you know that you arrived, it lets you know that you meant something to people. If not just a genre, you know, you meant something. Solidifies your work a lot. Like, when I was just on this tour, it’s funny, I was doing this show a couple years ago and I brought a little kid up on stage, he was chilling, he has a little Kangol on, little chain on. Like, “Yo, come up here and show the world young hip-hop.” And when I went back couple months ago, forgot about it, same city, same building, little kid front of the stage, grabbed him up on stage, happened to be the other little kid that I brought up on stage like ten years ago, but this little kid name was Rakim.

Jeff Mao

Wow!

Rakim

His pops gave me one of his school IDs, name was Rakim. So it let’s you know that people appreciate what you do and you mean a little more than just music to ‘em. You know, man? It’s definitely a blessing. Word up.

Jeff Mao

I’ve read an interview with you recently, I don’t remember what the source is, you said that you feel like you still have a lot to prove. What do you have to prove right now?

Rakim

Just that I’m still a beast, you know what I mean? Just that I’m still a beast. It’s like what drives me is like, people think the older you get, the wacker you get. [laughter] Once you hit your forties, like, you ain’t supposed to rhyme no more, like you ain’t gonna be nice, but for me it’s like the opposite, man. It’s like, the older I get, I think the better I get. I just like to break the laws of gravity, and let somebody know that yeah I’m forty-something, and I’m still a beast, man, and I can compete with whoever’s out there today or whoever was out there then. And that’s how I feel, but that’s what keeps me going, man. Word up.

Jeff Mao

I wanna make sure everybody has a little bit of time to ask some questions, so we can open it up at this point if anyone has a question for Rakim.

Rakim

Yes, sir.

Audience Member

Yeah man, uh… I f— wit’ you! [laughs]

Rakim

A’rite. Thank you, thank you.

Audience Member

My dad’s from Mississippi, 1960s, you know he was born in 1960.

Rakim

OK.

Audience Member

And when I was growin’ up we didn’t listen to rap, he didn’t play it at all. And I was gonna ask you this, like… I didn’t start getting into hip-hop until I was like 13 or 14, around when people started burning CDs and stuff like that. My dad would take ‘em, ‘cause he knew we were listening to rap an’ all this. The music I do is different, you know; my parents don’t really understand it, I don’t think. Like, when you started doing hip-hop and all that, did your family, people who are older than you today, understand? Or did they, did they bang with it?

Rakim

Luckily, my household was so in love with music, like my mother and father, they kinda claimed to understand it, you know what I mean? Let me kinda try to set the scene. My house was the house on the block. You know what I mean? All the kids come down, Moms and Pops had a big swing and a pool in the yard, and so there was a bunch of parties. And so my moms and pops would sit out on the step while the block party was poppin’, and tap their foot. ‘Course, some of it was a little crazy for them, but they just loved music. When I started doing it, they was kinda like, wondering what I was gonna do with it, know what I mean? Like, they seen what everybody else was doing, but for their son to ask for two turntables and a mixer and, they come home and I’m downstairs blasting music, I remember my pops used come down on the step and just sit there. I’m downstairs DJing and he come, I used to get a little nervous, like, you know, “My pops is there. Man, what I’mma play now?” [laughter] Know what I mean? But he was watching me, he was supporting me. And he was curious, is the word I was looking for. You know, “Is he good, what is he trying to do? Is he playing with us, is he trying to go professional?” So he was curious, man, and they supported me, of course. And they was a little crazy, ‘cause being young, and you asking your moms and pops for a turntable, that’s 300 dollars, and you know, 200 dollar mixers and you want speakers bigger than the house. And they looking at you like, “How ‘bout you get these over here? You get the whole set for about a 150 dollars.” And I’m like, “Ma, that’s wooden, I don’t want wooden turntables!”

[laughter]

You hope that they understand what you’re trying to do, but the main thing is you gotta do what you can to make ‘em understand. Once they see your fire, once they see you’re serious, and nobody… A lotta people don’t know, the reason why I didn’t curse on a lot of records, is ‘cause my moms and pops would listen to every one, you know what I mean? That was one way of getting they stamp, was like, “Check this out, Ma.” She be like, “Uh-oh, no cursing!” “That’s right, is it good? Alright, let’s go, next joint.”

[laughter / applause]

You know, just let them know that you know what you’re doing, that you serious about it, curse if you want, just let them know that you’re serious about it, that you love it, and they’ll arrive with you.

Jeff Mao

But you cursed on your first record. Twice!

Rakim

Yeah, man, you know, couple times, man!

Jeff Mao

What happened? When they heard it, what happened?

Rakim

They understood it was expression, man. Coming from my childhood, man, a bad word coming from me wasn’t as worse as some of the other things I used to get into, you know what I mean? So cursing, it wasn’t that bad.

Jeff Mao

Alright, who’s next?

Audience Member

You mentioned about the writer’s block moments, how do you know when it’s there? Like, when you’re happy with it, and that’s the word you want, and that’s what you want to say, and that’s the percentage of yourself you want to expose of yourself. How do you know when it’s done?

Rakim

Well, once you get used to writing… Like myself, I kind of knew how long it’d take me to do a certain song or a couple bars, or I just knew the quality of it, and as I’m writing, you going over your work, you’re singing and you got like, “Yeah, that shit is crazy.” Then you get to a point and you’re like, “Ah, that’s… It could be a little better that that,” [laughter] you know what I mean? Then you get to the next bar and you’re like, “I don’t know if this goes with the bars before that,” you know what I mean? So that’s when you start realizing like, “Maybe I’m rushing it.” Maybe I should put the pen down, go and relax, go eat something, go play with the dog, whatever, to break the monotony. It’s funny, like my accountant, he used to say, “I used to do gardening because I used to write rhymes, and in the summertime I would go out, cut the grass, do anything that was different from music.” Like, that’s what they didn’t understand, I would go out and just shoot baskets, just the ball for about 45 minutes. Go back in and write rhymes. So sometime my kids will look at me like, “Dad, you writing?” I’m like, “Yeah, I’m taking a break.” “You taking a… A grass-cuttin’ break?”

[laughter]

I’m like, “Yeah, you got a problem with that? You can’t cut the grass,” you know what I mean? But you know, I would just try to do something different with no music, and for some reason it just cleared my head and allowed me to come back and sit down and do my thing.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Jeff Mao

Who’s next?

Audience Member

Hey, first off, thanks for being here. Big fan. I was just wondering what do you think… When hip-hop became more commercialized, do you think it took anything away from it? You had mentioned you did it as like a personal expression, so…

Rakim

You got to look at it from two different standpoints. Coming from where I came from with rap, late ‘80s… Rap was basically underground. It wasn’t nearly as major as it is now. And of course, we wanted it major. We wanted hip-hop to be noticed as a genre. Real, you know, not just a fad. We wanted that respect, but when you start compromising it I guess, it takes away some of the substance from rap. But a rapper like myself, I feel good when I see a commercial that has nothing to do with rap, but there’s rap it, you know what I mean? Or, you know, if I see a TV show and they quote a rapper. Just the feeling that we went from mix… No, not mixtapes, cassettes, and house parties to arenas and multi-television and multi-million-dollar deals. Me as like a crusader in this, I feel good about it. But on the other hand we just wish that it’s not as commercial as it is, where it takes form the quality of music. Of course, if we can have the quality of music that we like in the same place, then that would make it great. But we got that scale, we got the notoriety, we just have to, you know, raise the genre up a little bit and that’s going to come from the artists’ understanding of the power that we got, the artists maturing with their work and things of that nature. But things take time and hopefully we get it there. Good question, bro.

Audience Member

Thanks.

Audience Member

Hi!

Rakim

Peace bro, how you doing?

Audience Member

Good, thanks. I’m from London and the first time I heard your voice was on a record called “Pump Up The Volume,” [MARRS] kind of like a, a cheesy kinda dance record…

Rakim

Oh yeah, they stole that. They stole that!

Audience Member

And yeah, I just wondered, that was the first time I heard your voice, and then everything clicked in my head. And I just wondered if, ‘round that time when the first record came out, if you came and toured in the UK and stuff, and what your experience of England was like?

Rakim

Oh, it was dope, man. I came over there, I think in ’87?

Jeff Mao

Def Jam tour?

Rakim

Def Jam tour. And what was so dope about England… We got on stage, and the lights came on, you started performing. And as you’re looking out into the crowd you know that ya’ll had tambourines, ya’ll had pots with spoons, ya’ll had whistles, anything to make noise, know what I mean? One of the loudest performances I ever been at, man. And that gave us a different understanding of, like I was tellin’ before, you go to different cities and you see how they play hip-hop different, how they accept it different, how they react to it different. And that kinda let us know, they was on a whole different vibe over there, and we appreciated that and we always kept it in mind. And we used to tease the States over here sometime, too, like, “Yo, we go overseas, and it’s on and poppin’ over there!” It’s one of the things, man, where you go out there, you experience it, you record it in your head, you appreciate it, man. ‘Cause to see that, man, that’s like what we do for New Years, man, we get pots out, we make crazy noise, and ya’ll was doing it for hip-hop concerts, man! So that let us know how much you all appreciate it, man.

Audience Member

Yeah, I was ten then, so.

Rakim

[laughs] So you didn’t make it, you didn’t make it. That’s alright, dude.

Jeff Mao

Anybody else with a question for Rakim?

Rakim

Another one, bro?

Jeff Mao

You got one more?

Rakim

No problem, man.

Audience Member

I was gonna say, you talking about jazz, I grew up listening to jazz, and my dad played the trumpet, it was really all we listened to. But what’s your favorite jazz song, like Coltrane, or Davis?

Rakim

“My Favorite Things” is my favorite song. John Coltrane, now let me tell you. I played saxophone.

Audience Member

Word?

Rakim

In school. Little dude. A lot of people don’t know that. But I guess, that’s why I like Coltrane, was my favorite. ‘Cause I understood the sax, and when I heard him play it I understood what he was doin’, until I heard him play “My Favorite Things.” Two notes at one time. Impossible. [laughter] It’s impossible, you know what I mean? Like, in order to play a note on a sax, you gotta hit the note to change. There’s no way you can press one note and then change that key and have two sounds come out. So, you know what I mean? Listening to Coltrane and trying to figure him out is what made me try to be complicated, and put, like… You know, I wanted to be Coltrane with a mic, you know what I mean? So that was like my biggest inspiration, bro.

Jeff Mao

Yep? Up here in front?

Audience Member

Thank you. I just heard you, about you, you wanna go to like, Coltrane level, and you mentioned some things about competition. I would like to know, how long you take it? When you say, “OK, I just relax a little bit…”

Rakim

You mean with the writer’s block?

Audience Member

Yeah, with everything, with the level of your own demand on yourself, you know? You say you want to be like the Coltrane of MCs, how you feel?

Rakim

Yeah, no doubt. I’ve always looked at people I’ve respected… But at the same time, it’s building yourself up. I dunno, I guess it’s trying to compare yourself with greatness, trying to measure yourself with the measuring stick, know what I mean? But it’s up to you to find good things to test yourself against. And I was lucky to have so many different people that I respected from music to actors, to sports figures, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee, you know what I mean? It was like, Bruce Lee’s ideologies was crazy, he wouldn’t just whoop your ass, he would teach something while he was kicking your ass. And I remember one time I seen this flick where Bruce Lee was teaching one of his pupils and they did a little something, then they stopped and then his student bowed but he took his eyes off of Bruce Lee, so Bruce Lee popped him in the top of the head. Bam! Student looked at him like, “What’s that for?” So they fought a little more, did it again. He stopped, they bowed, took his eyes off Bruce again. He popped him in the top of the head. So then he looked at him like, “What are you doing that for?” So Bruce put his hands up to his eyes or something and the kid looked and he popped him again and he told him, don’t concentrate on the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly glory. Now, I was so young that I didn’t know what the… Bruce was talking about. But it just let me know that it’s deeper than karate. It’s deeper than music. It’s the individual; you know, it’s how serious you want it to be, man. It could be just notes, or it could be conscious. It could be something conscious that drives you to make music or write rhymes. It could be something fun, but to me, I always tried to find a higher meaning, or a higher reason to do what I was doing or say what I was saying. So it was people like that, man; don’t concentrate on the finger. And what he was trying to say was, if somebody pointed at something and tried to explain it to you, you don’t have to look at what they pointing at, just open your mind and think about what he’s talking about and you can almost take that and compare with everything else in the room. So don’t just concentrate on the object, you know? Open your head up, man. So I listened to a lot of different people and they kind of stuck with me, man. I use their ideologies and things they spoke about, what they meant, or what they stood for. And again, it just let me know that it was more than whatever I thought it was. People have an ulterior motive that made them want to reach those levels or be as good as they did. Who else?

Jeff Mao

Who else? Anybody else? We’re right here. Right here.

Audience Member

Any authors, writers you like?

Rakim

Yeah, um. I like a bunch. Hip-hop or in general?

Audience Member

No, just writers, or reading, some reading, I don’t know.

Rakim

No, I take it back to Marvin Gaye. He’s one of the cats that, like, you’d listen to a Marvin Gaye song today, it’s like he was definitely ahead of his time. But the things he was taking about then is more relevant now than when he was singing them. And when I look at artists like that, it kind of fuelled me to be a little more, to have a little more meaning in what I was doing. And then there was people like Stevie Wonder… And I can go on for days, man, but you know it’s just listening to people that kind of made a difference, and it kind of made me want to make a difference.

Jeff Mao

Anybody else with a question? Ra, do you have anything you want to say in conclusion to these guys? Everybody in this room makes music in one capacity or another. You know, producer, DJ, vocalist, musician. They may not make hip-hop, they may make any number of different genres of music, they might do it any number of different ways, but, you know…

Rakim

I think what I would say to them, again, I might have mentioned it a little earlier: just speak from the heart, man. I think everybody got something to bring to the table. It’s like, nobody’s going to think like you think. Nobody’s going to think like you think. Nobody’s gonna… You know what I mean? And that was always my advantage. Ain’t nobody going to think like I’m thinking. As long as I’m thinking outside the box. If you doing what everybody else is doing, or just doing the norm, it’s going to fall right into the normal category, and then it’s going to be forgot about. So always create from the heart, man. And what happens is, is people, first of all they realize the difference right away. And then they start to learn the artist as a person because, like anybody does some that anybody do is like it ain’t interesting, it’s like [groans]. But when somebody come out different, and they got like a different sound and they doing some different, all of a sudden, they’re listening now, they wanna figure out what makes this person tick. Where was they born at? What’s they sign on? You know what I mean? Whatever they can find out about this cat to help ‘em figure out what it is. That’s what it is about a lot of artists that we respect. I know myself, like whenever I hear a new, fresh sound, I gravitate to it. It’s just that feeling that they’re different, it makes me cram and understand and want to know more about them. And almost like their music it more, even when it’s like so different, it’s like, this isn’t what I listen to every day. What is dope and what is so different, I wanna play once a day. I might get out well, brushing my teeth, getting fresh. There’s just certain joints, you know? So, don’t be afraid to do that, man, because trust me, at the end of the day, that’s what people look for. And I’m sure, if you all think about it some of your favorite artists, they got something different! They ain’t doing what everybody else is doing. There’s something different about them. So, what the power that you all have is we all individuals, we all got different fingerprints, and the fingerprint is the same up here, [points to head] nobody gonna think like you unless you let ‘em. So, take that chance, man, and do some different and speak from the heart.

Jeff Mao

Everybody, let’s say thanks to Rakim for being here today.

[applause]