Sal Principato (Liquid Liquid)
The year is 1979, and five young guys are jamming in a Hispanic neighborhood in downtown Manhattan. The vocalist of this group is Salvatore Principato. By day, he works in a toy store with Kim Gordon. By night, he’s dropping his vocal inflections onto the rhythms of his group, who go by the name Liquid Liquid. As we found out at the 2003 Red Bull Music Academy, their own brand of “body music” began to be heard alongside bands such as Suicide and ESG while also finding a way into the pioneering sets of DJs like Afrika Bambaataa and Larry Levan. Ultimately, one of their songs became the instantly recognizable sample for Grandmaster Melle Mel & The Furious 5’s “White Lines,” forever putting Liquid Liquid’s name in the hip-hop history books.
Hosted by Brendan M Gillen So anyway, they had their band replay that. And actually, you might want to know that that band that replayed it, if you listen to it it’s definitely a crappier version as far as the production and whatnot. They lifted the tones up and I think they made them a little bit more radio. Sal Principato Yeah it’s more accessible, their version, you know. I think it lacks a certain bottom. Brendan M Gillen Yes, we should actually go back to the point of how did this song cross over to this crowd? You know, this is pretty unique. It’s like a band coming from... So let’s rewind to before there was a Liquid Liquid. Sal Principato Basically, we come out of the punk rock scene of the ‘70s. And an aesthetic of the punk rock thing was, whatever else you were doing, whether you were a chef, whether you were a visual artist, whether you were an athlete, you seemed to form a band. You seemed to get into music. Music seemed to be the thing to express yourself through. It was very much a do-it-yourself aesthetic. You know, you weren’t following any template. You were just, like... Actually, you would pick up an instrument and start playing. And once you learned that instrument, you would put it down and pick up another one because really knowing how to play your instrument really well was not looked at as a good thing because it stifled creativity and innovation. So we come out of that aesthetic, you know. And then as we hit the ’80s come on and a whole new thing started coming into play. Brendan M Gillen So the first Liquid Liquid record is actually, what? Liquid Attack or something? Sal Principato No, no, it’s Liquid Liquid. I mean, we had a few manifestations self-produced like 7" 45s and stuff like that. When we were kind of a punk band, we called ourselves Liquid Idiot and played CBGB’s back in the day and all of that. But then we started getting the groove on, we started getting the big beat because the big beat was in the air. There was all this kind of innovation going on uptown, downtown. And that’s the other point too. I mean, there was a convergence of the hip-hop scene and a downtown dance-rock scene. Back then everything seemed fresher and newer. I don’t know, I guess people were just... I don’t know if they were any more open, but there was this feeling that it was time to see what we can learn from each other. But it wasn’t like this big conscious thing, people were just doing their thing. We were on the street. I mean, remember too, this was before the video age and that changed everything. Because that illustrated how things were supposed to be. Before then you would go and see a live show to see how things were supposed to look, you know, and how they’re supposed to feel. So there was a whole different texture and it allowed you to be a little more quirky. People were a little more tolerant of your quirkiness. Mistakes weren’t bad. Mistakes were possibly a lot of people’s only spontaneous moments. So they were looked upon as interesting. Brendan M Gillen It’s also important to think about it as the time before hip-hop was really on record. The time of the Liquid Liquid records is just the dawn of hip-hop coming onto record. You know, it had been maybe in parks, in nightclubs. But it actually hadn’t been solidified yet. It was much more of an open thing. So what was like the first hip-hop stuff that you saw? Sal Principato Well the first hip-hop stuff I heard was Kurtis Blow’s “The Breaks.” We were really into that jam. Brendan M Gillen Yeah! Sal Principato But the real thing that I loved so much, which really colored my perception of Grandmaster Flash eventually using our tracks, there was this jam they had called “Super Rappin No. 2.” It’s played live, the Sugarhill House Band played that, there were no samples in it. This was pre-sampling too. Another thing, this is all pre-sampling, this is pre-video. This is ancient history, really. But, they played this wicked, wicked groove. You had the five of them rapping over that. [starts to rap] “...introducing the crew, you got to see to believe, we are one, two, three, four, five MCs.” [laughs] It was just... it was it, you know, so we were feeling the warmth. There was a warmth to the music too. In 1982 we tried to do this show. It was... what’s his name? He produced some of the Beastie Boys and Johnny Cash? Brendan M Gillen Oh, Rick Rubin. Sal Principato Ah, Rick Rubin, alright. Rick Rubin was a student at the NYU at the time. And he comes to our manager. We had this underground label called 99 Records on MacDougal Street in the village. And we had this guy, Ed Bahlman, he was a producer and everything like that, and he had a record shop. He was the hip underground guy at that time. And Rick Rubin goes to Ed, he says, “I want to put on a show, I want to do something with your acts.” And so we came up with this concept, uptown meets downtown, we had the Treacherous Three, “Rock the body body, rock the body body.” They had that jam at the time. And we had this punk hardcore band at this time and we had Liquid Liquid, which was like the groove music. The link, like the connection between hardcore punk and hip-hop that was going on. And we rented this hotel in midtown Manhattan, the Diplomat Hotel. Man, I was so psyched about this. It didn’t seem like no one ever did this. No one even thought of this stuff that hip-hop and rock could get together and do something. Well, it was a beautiful show, but it wasn’t as well attended as we wanted it to be and at that time I got really discouraged. It was like, “What the f-,” you know? But it was the start of something. It was like the opening salvo of that cross connection. But ultimately it wasn’t us who initiated it. Like I said, it was amazing, it was the DJs. It was Afrika Bambaataa, you know, Afrika Islam, Larry Levan and a host of others. Some I know, some I don’t know. But our jam started appearing in master mixes and WBLS. And also our manager, too, going up to the offices of BLS net. That was the days when payola was still in effect and stuff. But things started happening, it started appearing in very unlikely places. Brendan M Gillen But let’s talk about coming right out of the punk scene. What was it like when you first heard [Public Image Ltd album] Second Edition? Sal Principato Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. Well, first see, that thing was in the air. It was not only that Second Edition, it was [PiL’s] Flowers of Romance too. Let me first refer to Flowers of Romance because, at the time Liquid Liquid had songs that were just drums. You know, drums, or drums and bells, drums and sticks. I always kind of looked at it that we were just playing sticks and stones, basically. So anyway, we had this very minimalist percussive thing. And then, I heard Public Image, doing like “Flowers” over that song. And then Adam Ant, all these people using the burundi beat from Africa and stuff like that. And it was like, “Damn!” Right now we are with an underground New York label. These people had access. Same thing with David Byrne, he was doing all this experimentation. And it was all good. But it was like, “How come these guys could get it out there so fast? We’ve been working on this for three, four years and no one’s heard our shit and these guys probably thought about it last week and they were already out there with it.” And it was like, “Agh!” [laughs] Brendan M Gillen Yeah, so the first Liquid Liquid record, it’s uh... Sal Principato 1980, that was. And that was before Second Edition. Brendan M Gillen Really? Sal Principato Yes, it was. Audience Member You were saying that you consider yourselves a rock band. And then your tracks started to turn up on other mixes and you had support from the breakers and stuff. Did you pen any songs after that for that scene or become influenced and start changing your stuff for that? Sal Principato No, no, no. That’s against the rules, you know? You just do what you do from your heart. And when you are doing “heart” music [points to his heart], you can’t be... Well, let me put it this way. The inspiration for a song or for any piece of art should solely come from within you, for you, or just speaking to someone you love. But, when you go into the production stage of it, then you have to target your audience. That’s when you think of, you know, “Who is it that is gonna possibly care about this and how should I present it to them?” But the original spark of inspiration, your groove or your melody or your catchy vocal line, it’s just got to be for you or that one you love. There are no other considerations and anything else is just commercialism, which is corrupt in a certain respect, in an artistic sense. I don’t know, everybody is trying to make a living. If you are just trying to put out product, fine, you could do it the way you want. But if you are trying to make art, it’s got to come from here [points to his heart]. Brendan M Gillen Let’s check out some of the stuff that was... (music: Liquid Liquid – “Bellhead”) Brendan M Gillen What kind of percussion were you guys using? This is a group of four people? Sal Principato Yeah, that was four guys making that noise. We were, in that song, it was a home made agogo bell. [singing] “Ding ding dong da ding ding dong.” There was an alarm bell, like an alarm bell on a stand being twacked with a stick. And then there was Dennis playing a marimba, as you heard, like the “dancing skeleton” sound and then there was just a trap drum. So that’s an acoustic song. It got some club play back in the day. And back in the day, just like kind of now, there was electronic sequencing which was just starting to come into fashion. And there was this kind of electro sound and stuff. So you would hear all these keyboard synthesizers and sequencers and stuff. And then in the distance you’d hear, [singing] “Bing bing bing, bing bing, boom.” And you’d hear our acoustic song being played in a club. And I’d be amazed, but people just started dancing to it, you know? (music: Liquid Liquid – unknown) Brendan M Gillen On to the second record. Oh yeah, there are some pretty linear examples. Sal Principato People not digesting their influences and spitting them out, you know. And I feel that at least when we were influenced by something, we thoroughly digested it before we put it out there. So you could say, “OK, they are pounding on drums, you know, African music, whatever.” But that’s not an African rhythm. Brendan M Gillen No, I hear it actually mostly in the bassline, I think of it kind of like juju at that time. Sal Principato Really? No, totally un-self-conscious. Brendan M Gillen Just makes me want to jump up. Sal Principato Yeah, maybe we were listening to Sunny Adé’s “Ja Funmi.” [sings] “Jah, Jah, Jah, Jah Funmi.” Brendan M Gillen You were one of the first acts on 99 Records. This label came out of a record store? Sal Principato Yeah, like I said, Ed Bahlman, he had a record store. And at that time even his record store was a little bit revolutionary because at the time you couldn’t go into a major record store and listen to what you were buying. You were just buying it and bringing it home and see if you liked it or if you heard it before. And he had a thing where he would play records for the people, for the asking. And so in that time it was revolutionary or at least progressive, not revolutionary, progressive. Let’s put it that way. So his first release was Glenn Branca and Glenn Branca wrote guitar symphonies. He would have 14 guitarists doing these symphonies. And it was very intense music. And I don’t know why Ed started doing that, but that was his first release. Then there was the Bush Tetras, which was another downtown dance rock beat band, and then ESG, and then us. And then he formed an alliance, with some of the people in England like On-U Records, Adrian Sherwood, the Congos. He did a 12" with the Congos, the reggae group. Brendan M Gillen Really? Sal Principato Yeah, yeah! Brendan M Gillen But yeah, this ESG record gets produced by Martin Hannett giving them the sound that, I think, takes this really interesting young group of girls from the South Bronx. Sal Principato Yeah, they were three sisters, literally sisters from the South Bronx. The drummer, you couldn’t see her over her drumkit. I mean, they were like 16-years old, between 16 and 19-years old. They have this little squeaky sound and stuff, it was sweet. It was really sweet. Brendan M Gillen They told me that their mum bought them instruments to keep them off the streets in the South Bronx to give them something else to do and they just would listen to James Brown records and try to come up with a cooler rhythm than James Brown. That was like their motivation, to top James Brown. Sal Principato Yeah, we used to call it “bubblegum funk.” We did a show at Knitting Factory in March of this year and it just went really well. It was really awesome and since then it was all these offers including electronic music festivals. Brendan M Gillen And thanks to a crazy lady named Tinku, who had the energy to pull it together, she got Liquid Liquid and ESG at the right time for Detroit to see this. It was actually probably the most legendary moment of the Movement Festival this year. You had producers that wouldn’t ever leave their home to go to a club or anything, standing around in the crowd, actually losing it, seeing four guys standing on stage, all hitting different rhythm instruments. Or when you had ESG, who in their current incarnation, had their younger cousins in the group? Sal Principato Now their children are playing in the group. They’re going to dress in spandex and shit. [both laughing] Brendan M Gillen It’s a family affair. Have you seen anything that captures the feel of that time? Sal Principato Alright. I’ve heard things. It’s interesting enough; there is this whole crop of bands coming up now in New York, like the Rapture and stuff, which take the whole catalog and the whole vocabulary that we used in the early ’80s and they’ve updated it and they’ve embraced it hook, line and sinker. Like, you’ll hear Pat Place from the Contortions guitar, and you’ll hear Liquid Liquid percussion and you’ll hear ESG congas and stuff. But, you know, they evoke that period, they really do. Just to hear that because it’s just people doin’ it [smiles], you know, just doin’ it. That’s what reminds me of it. Audience Member I’ve been listening a bit to this era lately and I just wonder how James Chance & the Contortions kind of fit in? You haven’t talked much about them. Sal Principato He talked about no-wave. That was definitely with them and DNA, they were part of the no wave movement. When I came to New York, I arrived in New York in 1979 from California. James Chance at Max’s Kansas City was the first show I ever saw. And he was walking on the tables, because they have big long tables, family style tables at Max’s Kansas City. And you could walk right off the stage onto the tables. And James Chance walks off the stage and he was just kicking off everybody’s beer [stands up imitating him], “Off with those things,” you know? It was very wild, you know? But his thing was based on, he was like the punk James Brown. He was trying to do a pretty self-conscious version of James Brown. Brendan M Gillen James White & the Blacks! Sal Principato Yeah, James White & the Blacks. To a certain extent we were a self-contained unit. We weren’t trying to associate ourselves with anybody. And it’s only in retrospect, I think, that it all comes together. At the time it was just everybody doing their thing. And you didn’t really look at yourself as all that related to anybody else. You appreciated what they were doing. But you said, “Well, that’s Arto Lindsay [guitarist of DNA] doing that and Fab 5 Freddy doing that and we are doing this.” But when you look back on the whole thing, you see a connection. There is a compilation that came out; Soul Jazz Records put out a compilation called New York Noise, which has a pretty broad range of all [those styles]. I have it here. Brendan M Gillen I would like to go from the times of these early 99 Records and go a little bit further than that to after the hip-hop thing was stronger in New York. I guess you guys had... it seems, this record here is really focused, the Optimo EP. It’s like a very focused record. There is one song, if you have never heard Liquid Liquid before, that one you just have to hear. (music: Liquid Liquid – “Optimo”) That record right there is why I will always cite Liquid Liquid as a major influence. Sal Principato And just to keep reminding you: That was basically an acoustic song with an electric bass. That was the only electronic thing that you had to plug in in that whole song. [smiles] Brendan M Gillen It has so much energy and how did you guys, for instance, put together that kind of structure? Sal Principato Totally organic. I mean, probably just sitting around smoking one afternoon and we got the groove going. And then we recorded it and the next day tried to imitate it. This led to that and this led to the other thing. It’s just organic grooves, you mnow. Brendan M Gillen And what about the lyrics, the voice? It seems to me that the voice isn’t trying to tell you a story. It’s just trying to evoke imagery, quick emotions. Sal Principato Well, you know the thing, what I consider a great vocalist is to be is not someone who can sing in 12 octaves. But someone, where you hear their voice, it opens up a vista. Just the texture of their voice gives you a whole view of life. But not by what they are saying, but just how it feels. And the other thing is, that even back 20 years ago, it seems life is one big billboard or one big commercial. Like everybody is trying to dictate your reality, give you this complete package of how to feel, think, look at yourself, look at others. And so I thought literal meaning should be put in the background and just the pure texture of the voice should be brought out. And not to mention, at the time I was very impressed by dub reggae. And not necessarily on that song, but on certain other songs I was just trying to do dub snippets. I listened to lots of reggae music at the time and I liked the dub versions more than I liked the regular songs. I felt the vocals in the dub versions said more to me [points to his heart] than [sings] “Ladi da da, da da da.” I would rather hear, “La la la la la. Da da da da da.” [imitating an echo with his voice]