Sheila E

Torsten Schmidt

Can you give us a little bit of context about your upbringing, and how a bit of Creole church singing would come into this?

Sheila E

Born and raised in Oakland, California, and my dad is a percussionist – Pete Escovedo, still plays. He’s Mexican and Indian, and my mom is Creole, from New Orleans. So it’s a little bit of Mexican tacos and Creole gumbo mixed together.

Torsten Schmidt

Sounds tasty.

Sheila E

It’s very good. It’s a little bit of everything together, which I think is a great combination.

Torsten Schmidt

It’s relatively hard to find good and authentic recordings of Creole singing, and I guess that when you listen to some of that you do get a bit more context [to it]. So I’d like to play something and maybe you could elaborate upon it afterwards: about what’s going on there rhythmically.

Sheila E

Sure, I’ll try.

(music: Unknown – unknown)

Torsten Schmidt.

It looked like you were feeling the rhythm, or imagining it – or were you just looking at the drums?

Sheila E

No. They started building the patterns that were happening: it started very simple, and then another percussionist comes in – wait, I hear my snare talking, hold on. OK. Then other patterns started happening. There was conga, then there was shekere, and then there are bells and then someone was singing. It just started building, and then I started hearing it – and then, I started visualizing it.

In order for me… I learn by watching and listening to people play. In my mind I started to get into it, and I started visualizing it, and then I said, “Well, wait a minute. What if I see the class doing the same thing, we could play that rhythm right now?” So, I started looking around: going, “Who’s going to play what? OK, let’s see how we could do that.”

Then I visualized it and I was like, “Oh, here we go.” When I first started watching my dad play, he was in front of me, just like I am in front of you. He set up playing congas as a right-handed player. And so anything that his right hand would do, my left hand would do. Then when he got off the congas, I went to play, even though it was set up as right-handed. I was playing left-handed, because I was looking at a mirror.

If you played something [to me], I would try to emulate what you played [but it] was going to look different. Right now, I was listening to that [and] then I visualized: “What if the class did this?” So, can we try something?

Torsten Schmidt

Sure. I mean, it’s a different kind of worship and it’s a different kind of rhythm, and if your kind of worship is the Johann Sebastian Bach kind of thing, there’s a scary prospect of this being a pretty happy church. Yeah, let’s try it.

Sheila E

Yeah, because it’s, again, it’s everybody has rhythm. I just want to try something, and I’ll have you starting and stopping it just so I can hear it and say, “What did they play?” The middle section right here: you’re just going to do, then go [claps out rhythm]. [Next section] This is you right here. Listen to them. Don’t rest. Go on. You’ve got to keep playing. You hear the melody. We’re going to get versatile with this, just keep playing. This section.

[Sings melody] Sing and play, here we go. Keep going. You have the easiest part, by the way. Keep going. Just do this [sings new melody part] Come on. Really? Keep playing. Stop that. Keep going. Go ahead. Nice. Keep going. That’s nice. Keep going. What happened to your part? This side, you guys suck. Come on. Alright, that’s it. Give yourselves a hand.

That was really good. The thing is about listening to that is that you start hearing patterns, and you start hearing beats, and then all of a sudden you just want to kind of get into it – and then, once you get into it, there’s a feeling happening. We stopped that, just so you can hear yourselves – and it took a second, but once you got into it it sounded great.

That’s the part of my career that my dad taught me – go ahead and try things that you’ve never done before, as far as playing [is concerned], and not playing inside the box but thinking outside the box. Figuring out ways to… if it feels good and you’re getting into it, I mean, it’s infectious. If you’re having a great time and I’m watching you play, that’s important. If I see you into it, I’m going to get into it, too.

That’s why it took me many hours of listening to that to learn it. I wouldn’t do it exactly the same, but [for] the feel of it. It felt good. And like I said: visualizing it and getting into it is just really important. Every time I play, it’s like the very first time that I’ve ever played. I do that every single time I play, and that’s why I wanted to become a musician, an artist, at 15 years old.

That first time I played with my dad for real with his band, I just went, “Wow, I want to feel like this every single day. That feels so amazing.” I just wanted to do this every single day. When you, as musicians and artists and whatever you want to do, you’ve got to be into it. You really got to know that your heart knows that this is what you want to do. It’s got to feel really good.

I mean I’m still doing this after 41 years, and every year – or every day, even – it seems like this is the first time I’ve ever played. I got excited when I started hearing you play. I mean, it’s just fun. Enjoy yourselves. Learn. Stretch. Think outside the box. Try different ways of playing your guitar with different pedals, using different picks, different fingering. Drummers, [try using] different pads and different mics. Incorporate electronic equipment – your iPad, your laptops – with things that you can program and play on top of it. I mean, no one says that you have to do it a certain way. This is where we look up to you guys – the future, now – in bringing things that are new and different. We’re looking for that. We want that. We don’t want the same old thing.

Music’s got to change as we do as people. As we change in our life and we go through things, our music’s going to change. The way we write, the way we feel music, how we hear it… things are going to change. You’re going to evolve. You’ll start looking at things differently and realizing, “Well, maybe I didn’t want to play it this way. I want to play this kind of music now.”

No one says that it has to be just this way. You just have to know in your heart that this is what you want to do. There’ll be a lot of nos. I still get nos. “Can I go through that door?” “No.” “OK, I’m going to come through the window.” Just figure it out. “No” means opportunity. “No” means opportunity. It doesn’t mean you can’t do it. It just means figure out another way.

Torsten Schmidt

Amen. Well, and just for the record, none of this was rehearsed. That’s probably also a true sign of a performer, being put on the spot and just, “Yeah, I can deal with this.”

Sheila E

Yeah, that’s the fun part. I like being spontaneous, especially on stage and playing and getting out there. It’s like it’s your time to create. If you share – if you’re really true to your heart and what you’re doing and you don’t think about it when you start creating spontaneously and taking us on a journey – you’re doing that from your heart. There’s no thinking. You’re going to take us somewhere. That’s important.

People start over-thinking things and making sure they have to do it correctly. I’d rather have something being recorded or played or sung that’s not perfect, but has heart. I’ll take that any day. Plus, we’re not ever going to be perfect. We’ve just got to figure it out. You’ve just got to keep doing it. Keep pursuing and keep pushing, because no one’s going to give it to you.

You’ve got to work hard. You really have to work hard and you have to want to love this. It’s not easy. I’m not saying this is glamorous all the time – heck no. It’s a lot of hard work, it really is. I can’t even begin to tell you how hard it’s been, but it’s all worth it at the end of the day, because I get to travel all over the world and share my gift of music that God’s given me.

To be able to share that and see people’s faces when we play, when we share our music [with] other bands, and the different collaborations that we bring; go all over the world and do that, and then meet other musicians and artists, and we all start jamming. [That’s when] you get these great collaborations happening, and then you sharing things that I would never even think of. That’s exciting to us that have been in the business for a long time.

Torsten Schmidt

Speaking of collaboration, probably one of the earliest collaborations you witnessed was your dad and your uncle and so on. I want to play a quick snippet of what that sounded like.

(music: Azteca – “Love Not Then”)

Sheila E

Wow.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, we don’t want to be rude, and obviously there’s a lot of music that’s really worth listening to in full, but we’ve got a ton of stuff to go through today. What was that that we heard there?

Sheila E

That was my dad and my uncle’s band: my Uncle Coke, and my dad, Pete Escovedo. It was called Azteca, and that was an 18-piece band that they put together at the time when Carlos Santana disbanded his band, and so part of Carlos’s band went with my dad’s band and they put together this awesome creation. They had three or four percussion players, three or four singers, four horn players, two or three keyboard players, two guitar players, bass drums… it was a big band. Actually, I think it was right after that record, so it must have been ’76 – no, ’75…

Torsten Schmidt

Well, the record came out in ’72, so…

Sheila E

Really, was it? Good Lord, help me Jesus. OK, I’m older than I thought. Yeah, so right after that second record came out, the conga player got sick and I begged my dad to let me play the show with him because I know that whole record. They rehearsed at the house, in the living room. I was like, “Please, can I play?”

He said, “No, you’re 15, you don’t know anything.”

“Come on, Pops.”

Anyway, I ended up playing one of those shows with that band, and that was the day I knew that this was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. You get to sit in. I begged people. I continued to knock on the doors and stand on the sides of these gigs, where my friends were playing. “Can I play? Can I play?”

“Get away, little girl.”

“Can I play? Can I play?”

I begged and they’re like, “No, no, no, no.”

Finally, I started getting on stage. I just kept bothering people.

“Can I play?”

“OK, you can play.”

The more I sat in – and I’d sit in with anyone, it didn’t matter, I just wanted to play – that experience, you can’t pay for. You have to do it.

That experience, when I finally got to play with my dad at 15 years old… you get into a situation where this band was signed with Clive Davis to CBS. They’re touring with Stevie Wonder, The Temptations, Earth Wind & Fire, and I get to play with them, and all of a sudden…

I thought I played okay, but then you play with these musicians whose level is the A list of artists and musicians, and it brought me to a place that I had never been before. I really had to play. I had to sit up straight, really buckle down, and my dad told me, “Take a solo.”

I started playing a conga solo, and when you have 18-piece band burning, playing, you just get to that place where, again, I’d never experienced that before. And that’s when I realized that this is what I wanted to do, but I really had to work hard to get there. That was a great opportunity and a great band.

Torsten Schmidt

Some of the work that your family did that some people might familiar with, in a different form, would be this song.

(music: Coke Escovedo – “If I Ever Lose This Heaven”)

Sheila E

Wow.

Torsten Schmidt

What can you tell the world about Coke Escovedo?

Sheila E

Coke Escovedo is my uncle. He passed away a long, long time ago. [He was an] incredible percussion player. He and my dad played. He was the younger brother. They both played congas and timbales and switched all of the time, and then my Uncle Coke (after leaving Azteca) went off on his own to do his own records. It’s just really cool. I haven’t heard that in like… wow, 30 years? 20 years? I don’t know. That just threw me back for a minute.

Torsten Schmidt

What did it throw you back to?

Sheila E

It just reminded me of being home and being with my family, and seeing him, because after a while, when someone has passed for so long, you kind of forget about them. Thank you for that. I needed to hear that. It’s just awesome to hear. Being percussion players back in the day, I mean… there weren’t a lot of percussion players who were leading their own bands, except for Tito Puente, or Mongo Santamaria, or people like that from Cuba, Puerto Rico, New York.

The East Coast and the West Coast didn’t have too many percussion players who were well-known, and my uncle and my dad were two from the West Coast, so that was just great to hear how they used percussion. You can hear Barry White being influenced by that kind of vibe: the conga being really out there in the front, with the low voice, and the strings and horns and stuff.

Torsten Schmidt

Speaking of East Coast, this also became known as so-called “Loft classics” – something that was played in the New York dance scene by DJs like David Mancuso and all these early pre-house parties and stuff. Were you guys aware of that on the other side of the [country], of that dance scene?

Sheila E

No. Not at all. We had no idea. That’s the thing about when you’re playing music, you’re writing music, you’re a part of something that you’re creating: you don’t realize how many people that you touch all over the world. You have no idea until someone shares it with you. We didn’t know that. There was, at this time, something of a rivalry between the East Coast and the West Coast with Latin music. Traditional salsa or Latin jazz, there was a little bit of a thing happening between the East Coast and West Coast.

Torsten Schmidt

One more song from that camp. Sorry about my voice today.

(music: Coke Escovedo – “I Wouldn’t Change A Thing”)

Sheila E

Cool.

Torsten Schmidt

I guess it’s pretty safe to say that not a single person in this room is from a place where the current hip-hop culture has not sampled that beat, in one way or the other.

Sheila E

Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

I mean, I guess he was not around long enough to reap the benefits of that.

Sheila E

Correct.

Torsten Schmidt

Were you at any stage within the family – well, I guess you had a different tie-in into that scene – when your elders were in some way informed of the ways [that they were being sampled]? Like, “Oh, we’re getting a second life here, Rakim is sampling our beats,” and stuff.

Sheila E

Yeah. I mean. We didn’t know a lot about that either, because we were creating music and playing. We had no idea that there was a whole another scene happening. A lot of stuff got sampled by Tito Puente – more than us – but it’s kind of cool, because then some of the younger kids thought that that [new version] was the original song from that DJ or rapper, not whoever sampled it. Then you go back and say, “Wait a minute, that was done in 1957.” Which is kind of cool, because it did help that whole scene after a while, bringing us older people into the scene of the young kids.

Torsten Schmidt

You frequently mention Tito Puente. He was a frequent guest in the household, but he was from the East Coast, right?

Sheila E

Yeah. He would play in San Francisco in the Bay Area and come and visit my dad. They were friends, I think, at 15 or 16 years old. Tito Puente kind of became like my godfather. There were times when I was going to play in different situations outside of the Bay Area – I’d fly to do a session in LA, or some other places – and it was kind of weird because, like I said, no one really knew who I was.

But Tito helped us to get a name, because he always allowed us to come and sit in if we were with him, or he’d invite us up on stage at one of his shows. He always told me, “Don’t pay attention to those people. They’re not doing anything. You come and play with me, and just do what you do.” You have people like that that can help you along as well. He was a great influence, a very generous man.

Torsten Schmidt

To give everyone a bit of an idea, could we please see video clip number one?

(video: Tito Puente, Pete Escovedo and Sheila E – “Latina Familia”)

Sheila E

That’s my band right there.

Torsten Schmidt

It’s really worth searching all these out if you’re into percussion, because I guess you can pick up one or two things from watching them, and there’s a wealth of them online these days.

Sheila E

Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

What did you learn in person from a performing artist like him?

Sheila E

He always gave 150%, like my dad, the two of them – being influenced by both of them to just go for it all of the time. Just do it. Just get in there and do it and play, no matter what happens. Sometimes we didn’t have monitors. You couldn’t hear each other. We had to look at each other and really pay attention, because when you’ve got three or four percussion players and a drummer, you can’t hear anything.

You just have to watch each other and just play. We learned a lot. When you’re playing with that caliber of artists and musicians, you want to do your best and raise the bar. You want them to say that they’re proud of you, so you really want to do your best every single time.

Torsten Schmidt

It seems to be a really physical thing as well, to play like that.

Sheila E

Oh yeah. It’s hard. After a while of playing congas – I don’t play them as much, but I still play and I love to play… there were times when I was playing with George Duke – and we were playing for months at a time – that my hands would start bleeding because I’m hitting on something that is a skin.

After a while, when you’re playing every single day for a month, you get calluses and then they’re bleeding. After a while I would, before we went on stage, hit [my hands] against the brick wall of the dressing room to numb [them] because they hurt so bad… I did that, for years, but because I loved it. You had to, again, endure the pain of playing drums.

I mean I used to play with those cymbals way up high – and I had like eight cymbals, ten toms, two kickdrums and all kind of stuff – and then I got a tear in my shoulder, and then rotator cuff. Then I had like an operation kind of here, in my elbow and my wrist, and after a while you go, “OK, let me break it down and put everything really close, so I can reach it and so it just feels better.” I’m constantly adjusting things, so that it feels good and feels comfortable.

These injuries come from me learning that I should have been warming up before I played. I didn’t realize. I’d just go out and play on stage, and play as hard as I can. You do that for like four hours every day, you get off stage, your hands are bleeding and everything hurts – and you just go, “Well, I’ll do it again tomorrow.”

Torsten Schmidt

It’s almost like listening to an athlete talk about their career and the repercussions they go through, but a professional athlete has only so many years in their career. I mean, ten years, if they’re lucky. You said that it’s been 41 years on stage.

Sheila E

Yeah – and I will be here another 41 years.

Torsten Schmidt

Bless.

Sheila E

Absolutely.

Torsten Schmidt

I guess at a certain time you need to come up with a regime where you think, “OK, how much of myself can I actually throw into this? And where do I draw the line so that people that actually come to see me still get the performance they want, but also so that I keep enough of myself to myself, to endure and make sure that I’m there for the next week, the next month, the next 41 years?”

Sheila E

You would think that that would be what I would do – and it’s not. No, I don’t “reserve.” There’s no reserve for me. I just go all out, every single show, whether I hurt myself or not. One thing that I have learned is that, before I play, I at least take my sticks and something that’s semi-hard so that I can warm up for 15 minutes with the sticks. It actually helps me to loosen up and get the blood flowing to my hands.

It’s worse when I’m playing outside, though – the temperature changes, the drumheads can be damp, or it’s too hot, and then the skins are low; it changes everything. But warming up for at least 15 minutes has been a life-changer. The drum seat that I use now has a hydraulic, because my back went out.

I’ve had injuries. My back went out. I was partially paralyzed for two weeks. They wanted me to get an operation. I went to four doctors for four months to learn how to walk around the corner. It took that long. You have seen me play in high heels, but today you see I have my tennis shoes. Playing drums in high heels was the worst thing I could have ever done.

I play timbales in my heels but then after a while, like three or four songs in, I take my heels off and I’ll play without any shoes on. What ended up happening, being in my heels like this, was that [it] shortened my calf muscles, and I didn’t realize that it had twisted my whole body like this. My back went out and then after that, my lung collapsed. I don’t know what happened. I was tired.

Then my body said, “OK, you need to stop and chill out for a minute.” I learned how to pace myself in a way – not pacing myself on stage, I still give it 150% – but it’s about what you do before you get on stage. It’s the warming up. It’s trying to eat the right foods when you’re out on tour late at night, when there’s nothing to eat but hamburgers, French fries and pizza. You don’t want to do that every single day.

It’s learning how to take care. This is a temple. You have to feed the inside in order to help the outside. A lot of us, we’ve got to the point where the outside looks great but the inside is just really messed up. It’s really taking care of yourself, and learning how to take care of your body in that way, so you can go out there and give that 150% no matter what, and still feel okay after the show.

Torsten Schmidt

A different type of performance or someone that apparently you liked a lot. Can we please see video number two?

(video: Sammy Davis Jr on The Ed Sullivan Show)

Sheila E

Awesome.

Torsten Schmidt

I believe that was Sammy Davis Jr on the Ed Sullivan Show. Very much like Tito beforehand, he looked very happy on stage. It’s like when you see a lot of people doing a performance with Abelton on their laptop, and the classic…

Sheila E

You’re calling people out – go ahead.

Torsten Schmidt

The classic, like, “Oh, what am I doing?” It’s like, “I’m going to check some e-mails here.” There’s something about that performative energy, and maybe even humor – how do you bring that to the stage and how do you get yourself to that place every day, even though you might feel very different?

Sheila E

Yeah. I get on stage, and anything that has happened during the day, good or bad, stays off the stage. I never bring anything personal, and I don’t allow the band to do that, either. The biggest part of playing is all of us being one unit, so if someone brings something on the stage, there’s going to be disconnect. You can deal with it after, but when people come to play and they show up, you owe it to them to be responsible and give them a great show.

There’s a lot of people that, yeah, they’re on their laptops and they’re programming and writing music, and then when it comes to the time to get on a stage, you kind of don’t have that, I guess that “entertainment” thing, that’s what a lot of people want. They want to be entertained and you have to find that.

A weird thing that some people might do already [that would help] is if you videotape yourselves [on stage]. Everyone does selfies all day long, so I’m sure it’s okay to videotape yourself. Videotape yourself playing, watch it back and see what that looks like. If you’re entertained and you think, “Man, I did great. I look good and I sound good,” then it’s okay. If you kind of look uncomfortable and you feel uncomfortable looking at yourself, then we’re going to be uncomfortable looking at you. We’re not going to believe you because you don’t believe yourself. That’s how it works. Videotape yourself, play in the mirror, and look at certain things.

That’s what I would do all the time. I would look in the mirror, if I were going to record a video, or do parts in a movie, or other things that we had to do, take each line of a song, and figure what word out of each line of that song I would make sure that you’re going to get. If it were the word “heart,” how I would say it? Or if I say, “Look into my eyes,” how I would do it? Would I wink, or do something that would catch your attention? When you’re writing lyrics, sometimes we don’t hear it, and the only way to hear it is to see it. In order for me to see it, you have to get my attention. I need to make sure that you’re actually talking to me.

When we look at videos and performances, and you’re able to see that person one-on-one, it could be 10,000 people in the audience, but if you can reach all 10,000 people at once, you’re doing something right because you’re connecting with everyone. You really have to get in front the mirror, if you can, and practice while looking at yourself: at feeling comfortable about who you are, in the mirror, and it’ll get better as it goes along. Pick these key words in a sentence, or parts in the chorus that mean something. How you want to translate it visually? It makes a big difference.

Also, on stage, sometimes you really feel like you’re really going all out, and you look back at the videotape you’re going, “Man, I felt like I was doing this, but really I was just doing this.” You think that you’re really being big, but you’re not. That’s the thing about doing live performances – you have to make sure you’re bigger than life, and you have to let us feel that, man; that you can reach everyone in this entire room. That’s hard to do sometimes.

Torsten Schmidt

What fascinated you in particular about Sammy Davis Jr.?

Sheila E

I saw a videotape of him when I was younger – of him tap dancing with his uncles when he was only, like, five or seven years old, and I was just amazed. Like, “This kid is ridiculous. I can’t believe how talented he is.” And so I said, “I could do that.” I tried to tap dance. I said, “Well, maybe not – but I’ll try something else.” I started playing his tap dancing with my hands on the table, and I was like, “Wait, I’m emulating [him]. I can see it. I’ll play it this way, with my hands instead of my feet.” I figured out a way to do it. Then, my dad brought home this record – I think it was “Live in Vegas” or something like that, featuring Buddy Rich – when I was nine years old. This album he brought home was by Sammy Davis Jr, and the whole monologue at the beginning was just amazing.

I learned that entire record. I wasn’t like listening to just drums. I listened to the overall piece, and I just thought, “He’s just so amazing,” because he didn’t just tap dance. All of a sudden, he’s singing [too]. I have one of his organs. He played organ. He played everything. He sang, he was an actor, he did all kinds of stuff, and it’s just like, that’s that entertainer that I love. The kind of entertainer that just wants to do everything. I said, “I want to do everything. I’m going to try. I’m just going to have fun.” He seemed like he was always having fun. They were laughing on stage all the time, and then you laugh [with him]. He’s singing, he’s dancing, and he’s playing drums. That’s crazy.

Torsten Schmidt

Did it occur to you in any way that he was typecast, especially when they performed as the Rat Pack, and what his role was in that?

Sheila E

You said, “was he?”

Torsten Schmidt

No, what his role was and the way they placed him in that set-up.

Sheila E

Yeah, I mean they talked about it. That he was the black guy, the token in a sense, but he called himself the black Jewish guy. But he was able to be in that position to get the masses because of Frank [Sinatra], and be able to be surrounded in a group of people that were huge, and famous, and can do big things. So being a part of that – he loved it.

Torsten Schmidt

Did some of the humor in there seem as abusive then as it seems now?

Sheila E

Yes… but I think the abusiveness that we have right now with our youth is way worse than that. I think what we’re doing now – how we cut each other down, and don’t respect each other, and how we call each other out and call us other stuff, that’s bad. That’s barely anything compared to what we do now.

Torsten Schmidt

On that merry note, let’s play “Dukey Stick.” That’s video number four.

Sheila E

The video you have? Gosh, can I get a copy of this stuff? Really?

(video: George Duke – “Dukey Stick”)

Torsten Schmidt

What’s going on there?

Sheila E

I don’t know, no. We actually we shot that video I think at the Roxy, in Los Angeles. What happened was that Ndugu Chancler, who I met while he was in Santana, wanted to come out and sing in the front. He’s like, “I’m going to be the star in this song. I’m going to come out and sing in front. Somebody got to play drums. Sheila, go play drums.” I’m like, “I don’t know how to play drums.”

Anyway, I played drums and had a great time. That was one of the songs I played. The thing about George, which was pretty awesome, when I left my dad’s band, playing with George, was having that opportunity to play with someone like that, that played Frank Zappa, and played Brazilian music, funk, jazz, rock and roll, gospel. He played everything – and fusion.

We played music that was different time signatures. I don’t read music. I don’t write music. Everything that I write is from my ear. I sing melodies, I’ll sing beats, whatever, but I don’t read or write music. I’m just learning, actually. The thing is with George is that he would play all these different time signatures – 15, 24, I don’t know.

He was just coming up with stuff and I was like, “Uncle George, where’s the 1?” He said, “You’ll feel it, just go ahead and play, E, just go ahead and play.” I said, “Okay.” We’d start playing and I’d have to listen to it because things would just turn around he goes, “We’re in 7.” “7? Okay, count it for me.” He’d play, and I’d go, “Oh, I get it.” So, he allowed me to learn all these different time signatures while being in his band.

I actually got paid to just go to school, basically. It was so awesome, because we got to play everything. That’s when I even started singing and playing more with his band. And that’s the thing, trying to be versatile, to sing, play, dance, do whatever. It’s like, “I’m just going to challenge myself and make it fun.”

He was never the guy that said, “Sheila, just play this on that song, and just only hit the drum one time, and then go to the chimes, and then stand there and then play the triangle…” He never told me to [do that] the entire time I played with him. He never said to play anything like that. He just said, “You play what you hear, and that’s going to be the best thing, because I can’t tell you what to play because you’re going to already know.”

Torsten Schmidt

He was also a big advocate of synthesis and trying different sounds as well, right?

Sheila E

Yeah, he had so many different synthesizers. The Mini Moog was one of his favorites. He had pianos, he had different keyboards that they fixed to have different sounds, and, of course, you see some of the keyboards are in Plexiglass, so you could see the clavinet. He used all kinds of stuff. He had this other thing that was built. I don’t even know what it was. It didn’t work half the time, but it looked pretty.

Torsten Schmidt

You mean like the dukey stick?

Sheila E

Yeah, that hardly worked at all. It didn’t. Every time he’d try to light it, it wouldn’t go off. And he’s just like, “This stupid thing.”

Torsten Schmidt

Nevertheless, it seemed to be like a good prop to reel people in.

Sheila E

Absolutely.

Torsten Schmidt

It’s a lot easier to remember, “It’s the guy with that stick,” rather than, “There’s that fusion player.”

Sheila E

Exactly. That was his little gimmick, yeah. “Let’s get a dukey stick.” I go, “What’s a dukey stick?” “A stick that blows out fire.” “OK, that works.” Well, it didn’t work, but, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

On to another gentleman, track number five please, maybe the first minute or so.

(video: Sheila E, Pete Escovedo and Tony Flores (Live, for Marvin Gaye))

Sheila E

That’s my brother, Peter Michael.

Torsten Schmidt

Who you’re still working with today, right, he’s still directing your videos and stuff?

Sheila E

Say it again.

Torsten Schmidt

He’s still working with you today.

Sheila E

Yeah, my brother, yeah, he’s directing my videos now, so yeah. It’s fun. Listen, any gig that I had, I tried to bring my family, my friends, so if you hang out with me you’ll end up in someone’s band or something. That’s what happens with just the connection thing.

Torsten Schmidt

You’ve just got to have chops, I guess.

Sheila E

No, not necessarily – a good heart, be on time, learn your stuff, have some confidence, some fun, no drama. That’s all I ask. No drama. I heard that, I heard that.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, in a less comical sense, drama was actually what happened right after this tour that you got off there. Like, I mean you were a fan of this person?

Sheila E

Marvin, yeah. No, it was incredible. The quick story about that is that one of the guys came to see us play and he said, “I’m going to be the road manager for Marvin Gaye, would you like to come and play?” I was like, “Of course. Marvin Gaye? I grew up listening to Marvin Gaye!” That song goes – I’ll do like this [plays the “What’s Going On” beat on her mic, sings some lyrics alongside the beat]. Right? So that beat is happening, and it’s like, “I get to play that conga beat, that I listened to forever, and Marvin Gaye is going to be singing on it? Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God,” right?

You see that there are three of us playing percussion: my brother, my cousin, and me. All of us played something. Anyway, we’re playing, and we’re doing rehearsal and we had three of everything.

We had three congas, three congas, two or three congas. Timbales, timbales, timbales. Bongos, bongos, bongos. Toys, toys, toys. There’s a 24-piece band. Marvin’s singing, and he’s really soft-spoken, man. “Hi Sheila, how are you doing? It’s a great day.” He’s really soft-spoken. We’re playing, and we’re doing “What’s Going On?” and I’m playing that one conga, because it was the one conga, and then all of a sudden I start dancing.

I was like, “Yeah, we’re in now. This is getting good.” I started dancing, my brothers started dancing, and we all started dancing. Then, the horn players are looking [at us] like, “OK, we’re going to start dancing, too.” Again, everybody started dancing and getting his or her own steps and stuff.

I was playing, and then I ended up hitting the other drum. Now, Marvin Gaye had his back to the whole, 24-piece band. All of a sudden, we hear, “Stop! Stop!” He yelled, and all you could hear was sticks falling and stuff happening. Like, what? Everybody freaked out, because we had never heard him yell before. He just turned around, looked at the band, and said, “Somebody played an extra beat.”

Oh my God. You see where I was standing, my brother was here, and my cousin was here. My heart you can hear going [plays loud heartbeat onto the mic for dramatic effect] and I said, “Oh, I’m scared.” I said, “Sorry, Mr Gaye, I will make sure that my brother never does that again.” Yeah, and then my brother, he put his hand up, he’s like, “Yeah, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.”

Early on, that was 1982, I learned when – and this is the key to all my stuff I do – when not to play. Learn when not to play. Just play what you’re supposed to play, until there’s a time such as whenever it is, and just play. That’s the problem a lot of musicians have now – everyone wants to play everything now, and get busy, and no one’s playing and listening to each other, so it just becomes a mess.

If you learn when not to play, that’s the key. I had a drummer that played with me, a dope drummer, but he wants to solo on the hi-hat. I’m like, “Why? Just keep time for like eight bars. Just give me eight bars of the same drum beat.” Then they’re like, “But I’m feeling.” I’m like, “No, don’t. Don’t do anything. Don’t move. Just play the same thing.”

If we all played the same thing, and no one moved, the intensity of that thing would get to be almost like that first piece that you played. It just gets bigger and better if we just played the same thing and then, all of a sudden, it would get intense because we would have all become one. All of a sudden, you would feel this thing – like a movement.

It’s like a movement if everyone listens to each other and you just play what you’re supposed to play. And then if there are other things to add, cool. That’s what I’m saying, I would rather have someone that is not a soloist, but will keep time all day long. I’d rather [have someone who did] that, and had a good heart, than [have someone who can] solo, get crazy and bring drama. See you… No – that doesn’t work for me.

Torsten Schmidt

When playing for Marvin, did you have to adjust yourself mentally? Because a lot of the music beforehand was about the embellishments, whereas that Detroit school is very much about cutting to the chase…

Sheila E

Well, it was interesting because – again, there are three percussion players – we had to split parts up. We couldn’t all just play the same thing. Each song it was either bongos with a couple of beats of me, with a triangle every 16 bars, maybe. Then there was a young lady who played vibes as well, and she had some percussion. So, you’ve got four percussion players, drummer, bass guitar, keyboards, horns and singers – there are a lot of pieces.

You can’t just play whatever you want. You have to really put things into place and figure [them] out. “Well, we don’t all want to step on top of each other. We’ve got to figure this out and kind of split it up.” Instead of one person trying to play everything, three people splitting it up and taking turns makes more sense – and then trying to stay out of the way of the drummer.

Torsten Schmidt

How old were you at that time?

Sheila E

In ’82, I don’t know. I was born in ’57. How old does that make me? 24 or 25 years old.

Torsten Schmidt

You almost had 10 years on the road by then?

Sheila E

Oh, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Is there any advice of being on the road, and its etiquette, that you can share with people who are just on the start of their path?

Sheila E

We don’t have enough time for that one. Yes, OK. Like I said, be on time, really be considerate of everyone around you. I can tell you 10,000 stories that have happened to me on tour with other band members, and I’ve actually kicked people off the bus and said, “Get home on your own, because that doesn’t work over here.”

Listen… my situation was, in my band, in order to even get in my band, you had to say that you weren’t going to drink, you weren’t going to smoke, and no drugs, and you’re going to be on time. If you’re late the first time, slap on the hands. The second time, $50. Third time, you’re fired.

If I wanted to change your hair – purple, green or yellow – I would be able to do that, because I had a look that everyone had to have an image, because I saw the picture. “You need to have black hair with a little red stuff here,” and whatever. “You’re going to wear this,” and say what clothes you’re going to wear. It was a vision. I wanted us to be a club, a gang, and say, “We’re all doing this together,” and you have to wear make-up.

And they’d say, “OK, cool.” Well, that’s the ’80s. We were all wearing make-up, [even] the guys. After a while, I wanted to make sure that the band all looked like we were doing this together and we had a great time. That lasted for a hot minute, because after a while, they were tired of going to do the interviews and putting on make-up. It takes work.

So really, if you really want to do this, you really have to be passionate about it. Treat people nicely, because, after a while, this business does this and at some point you’re going to run into those people that you ran into here, when you’re down here. You’re going to have to ask a favor, you’re going to need some help, so just be a good person, man. It just really helps to just be considerate of each other – and respect. If you respect each other and love each other and have a great time, it’s all cake. It really is.

Torsten Schmidt

That’s said from the perspective of someone who already had his or her own band. Beforehand, when you were coming on as a band, especially as a young woman, then I guess you see a lot of behavior that maybe your parents wouldn’t necessarily approve of. How do you defend yourself in that situation and make sure you stand your ground?

Sheila E

Yeah, I can honestly say that I never got anything by sleeping with anyone. I always said no. I’ve gotten offered ridiculous things. If you just sleep with me, I’ll get you a record deal. Hey, you want your own plane? G5? Wait, no, a hotel. Wait, it can be called… Sheila Inn? Hotel? Suite? Resort?

Torsten Schmidt

“Ooooh, Sheila.”

Sheila E

Oh, Sheila. Really. And I would just say “No.” Then I hear of other women sleeping… and I’m just going… I just I wasn’t brought up that way. I had parents that are still married. They just had their 59th wedding anniversary. That doesn’t happen in this business, so that’s a blessing, but that’s the home that I came from, the upbringing…

There were things that had been said to me and I just made sure that I was being respected in a way that I wanted to be treated, as a woman, as a strong woman, as a loving, caring person, even though I played drums in a so-called male [world]. That didn’t exist, but people made it [seem like] that. I happened to be a great musician, and I just so happened to be a woman. It’s a gift to be a woman, and I wanted to be respected as that. So, I never backed down on anyone trying to disrespect me, ever. Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

We’re in the middle of the ’80s now, and videos are becoming very important. Maybe it’s worth a look at one of your first appearances in a video, for a quick moment.

Sheila E

God.

Torsten Schmidt

This would be video number six.

Sheila E

I think I know what it is, yeah. I bet you it is.

(video: Lionel Richie – “Running With The Night”)

Torsten Schmidt

Like we said: it was the ’80s, so videos became very important. What did we see there, in the first place?

Sheila E

A scared little girl. First of all, I was glad to be in the video. They had already done the record, so I didn’t play on that. The funny thing is that Lionel’s like my big brother, but I was supposed to be kind of like a love interest [in the video]. Every time he came to me towards the end of the video, and he’d look at me and he’d do this [look], I’d go, “Seriously, this is not working. I can’t look at you like that.” We had a great time. It was just weird trying to dance. I just felt weird trying to dance in that dress. It was uncomfortable, but it was something I had never done and being in the video on MTV was huge. That was a big, big deal, and I got to do it, so I did it.

Torsten Schmidt

It was a big deal, but by this time you already had recorded with Billy Cobham, with Herbie Hancock, you played with Miles Davis – so, like, it doesn’t get much bigger than that in the [music] world. And all of a sudden it’s like, “You want me to act like it’s an episode of 90210 or something?”

Sheila E

Yeah, it was. Again, it was something that I had never done [before] – to be in a video – and again, MTV was the place to be. They hardly let any black people on MTV at the beginning. Come on. Let’s get real. That was a big deal. I was like, “Yeah, I want to be in the video, absolutely.” Then I brought my sister. I always bring somebody with me. I’m telling you, hang out with me, we’ll have a great time.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, we’ll get to that in a second, but someone else that actually got on MTV despite his color.

(music: Michael Jackson – “Don’t Stop Til You Get Enough”)

Now, there are three percussionists credited on the record, and you’re not one of them.

Sheila E

Correct. They forgot to put my name on the record, on that song in particular. Quincy and Michael called me to come in the studio and play this song. He says, “I want you do something that has like a high pitch.” Again, like I said, thinking outside the box, I don’t stick to just traditional stuff and I make stuff up all the time. I’m thinking – and Michael’s doing some kind of something – not Michael Jackson.

Torsten Schmidt

I thought you were going to pull a Chris Tucker here.

Sheila E

No… Yeah, those right there. What I did was, if you hear the song on this speaker ,I can hear the cowbell playing, and then you hear these other things playing over here. This is what I did. “I think I can use this or something.” I asked Quincy to get me some bottles. They weren’t these, because they’re not tuned, but what I do is, I put water in them and I tune to the track.

Play the song and I’ll tell you. This is not tuned, so it doesn’t matter, but you can at least hear it. Then the cowbell is on this side, playing the other cowbell part. It was just something I thought of doing: just putting water [in the glasses] and tuning it to the track. Like I said, they wanted a scratching sound, like a guiro. If you don’t know what a guiro is, it’s made out of a gourd and Latin percussionists play in Latin bands.

But I didn’t have a guiro at the time, so I took my hairbrush on the couch and [makes scratching sound], and it sounded great. There are times when I needed a bite, no pun intended, but the snare that I had didn’t have a bite to it so I took an apple, crunched it a couple of times, sampled it, and put it on the snare. Seriously, it’s like, who said I couldn’t? You’ve just got to make stuff up.

With this [goes on to drink water from the glasses, and tune them between speaking]. You can hear Herbie Hancock, and the other one’s [makes sound]. I can’t do them all at once. Because I wanted to play them all at the same time, I made a box, put like three or four bottles in it and tuned them to different notes. The more water you put in it, the higher the pitch is. And the less water, the lower the notes. See? The notes get lower. Stuff like that, you can do. Just have fun with it and figure it out.

Torsten Schmidt

That one works great with beer bottles as well.

Sheila E

It does.

Torsten Schmidt

How different is it dealing with a musical director on stage, rather than having some producers like Quincy and the Jones – I mean, Quincy Jones in the studio telling… that sounded like a good rock band, right?

Sheila E

It did. I don’t know. I mean you, can’t go wrong with Quincy Jones. I mean, he knows what he wants… and sometimes he doesn’t. He’s just like, “I don’t know what that sound is, but come up with something.” You just try things until it sounds right or it feels right to him, which is what happened.

Torsten Schmidt

I want to take us from being hired, and being someone on stage, in the video and in the studio, to being really center stage. For that, I guess we move to video number seven, please.

(video: Sheila E – “The Glamorous Life” (Live on the American Music Awards))

Now, to the really important bits about that one, what is the drum machine on that record?

Sheila E

That’s a Linn drum machine.

Torsten Schmidt

LM-1?

Sheila E

Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Right.

Sheila E

Yeah, the Linn. What I did was with this band… the drummer that was playing in my band at that time stayed with me for a very long time. I grew up with him. He’s actually a timbales player, and you will know him now as Karl Perazzo, the timbales player for Carlos Santana. When I disbanded my band, he went with Carlos. He can play a little bit of everything. Instead of me having him sit down on a kit, I wanted everybody to dance. I put a kickdrum, just like that, and I had the snare so he could stand up and play the snare, and he had a hi-hat on the right side, so he can play it open.

I put triggers on two toms, and a trigger on the kickdrum and the Linn machine, so he had the on and off switch on the floor and had to turn the Linn machine off and on. The [makes rhythmic sound], that’s all done with a trigger on one of the toms, because it was the only way for me to get him to stand up. He stands up and plays drums the whole show, because that’s visually what I wanted to see.

The keyboard players, instead of sitting down, of course, but to play with the keyboards just straight, I had everyone tilt their keyboard so they’re standing up playing like this. It just looks better. It actually felt better for them instead of playing like this, anyway. Now, to this day, they all tilt their keyboard because it just made sense. It was things, visually, that I wanted to do.

That was the American Music Awards with Dick Clark. Dick Clark was a friend of mine and – like I said – at the time, I wanted to be respected. Well, I thought that with wearing no clothes for a long time, I would be respected. That didn’t work. I kind of lost my mind for a minute. But I came back.

Dick Clark used to come to me coming to shows and he always had to say, “Sheila, let me see your wardrobe.” Because at that time they had these people that would look and make sure that nothing was going to be seen, they would cover [you] up and if there was a [bad] shot, they had to break away to another shot. So he said, “Let me see what you’re wearing.” It was fine. Everything was covered up.

But the big deal was that at the end, right when you saw me walk away with the fur coat, I had these sticks that were… they lit up. I forget what they were. Anyway. We used those drumsticks like lasers, and they made [us] these Plexiglass drums so that the drumsticks wouldn’t break, because if they did, they would burn me.

It was a big deal for ABC to turn off the lights for me to use those sticks. We had to convince them. We argued and fought and fought, like, “Please, Mr. Clark, let us do this.” They're saying, “What if they don’t turn on?” Then that means for even two seconds, if the television goes black, that’s a big deal. Like that’s major.

“What if the lights don’t come on?”

“It’s going to come on, it’s going to work.”

They let me do that. That had never been done on television before, and that was also a big deal. We had fun doing that.

Torsten Schmidt

Dick Clark seemed to be really concerned about everyone’s wardrobe. There’s an interview of him interviewing you on American Bandstand where he’s really concerned about the wardrobe. What was the movie your gear was inspired by?

Sheila E

Amadeus.

Torsten Schmidt

An Oscar-winner, at least, yeah.

Sheila E

Yeah, I loved clothes. I would look at magazines, pull stuff out, and then mix it up and have people design different things for the band. One of the outfits that I had was a big cape and when I took the cape off, I’d turn around and the backside was a little bit exposed kind of through lace. He had to see the whole thing, so that when I turned around, he would go to an audience shot, then come back to me and make sure it was okay. They had censors back then. It was a big deal.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, now they have a two-second delay…

Sheila E

Barely.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, when looking for those performances, what’s pretty striking is we did not find one performance that mirrored the other. There are always new dancers, new costumes and so on. That is a) a lot of effort, and b) tons of money against your own account, I suppose.

Sheila E

Yeah. It’s a lot of money, depending on who’s making the clothes. And if it’s the person who’s very famous, they’re going to charge you a lot of money. All this stuff, yeah. That was somewhat in the middle of the Purple Rain Tour. I was out on tour for a year, doing 98 or 99 shows – I got off the tour owing $990,000.

Torsten Schmidt

How does that work?

Sheila E

When people are saying, “Yeah, what do you need? OK, great, I’ll take care of it. Alright little buddy, all is good.”

“OK, what do you need?”

“Yeah, yeah, no, we’ll take care of that. Don’t worry about it.

“Hey, don’t you need to, yeah?”

“Oh yeah, I would love to have that.”

“OK, yeah. We’ll take care of that.”

Then at the end of the tour they said they were going to take care of it, and then I get a bill for $990,000 after working for an entire year.

Torsten Schmidt

On the back of a record, that did how much?

Sheila E

I don’t even remember.

Torsten Schmidt

It sold quite a lot.

Sheila E

Yeah, it was gold or platinum. In Japan, the States, and here. We did great as well.

Torsten Schmidt

Yeah. How does that work when you sign a deal and you get presented with all that stuff that you don’t really care to read, and you get like seven different opinions by people, and then in the end… I mean, it still happens to this day…

Sheila E

Absolutely.

Torsten Schmidt

You get multi-platinum artists that, all of a sudden, end up bankrupt. They had great videos, but no one seemed to tell them at the time that it gets deducted from what you’re making.

Sheila E

Right. Yeah, the biggest thing is to make sure that you have someone looking at anything that you’re going to sign, because there’s always something in a little tiny print that they kind of flip, and you go, “Well, I thought it meant that.”

“No, it meant the other thing.”

Make sure you always have someone reading the things that you’re supposed to sign, as well as asking questions and making sure that you understand.

Just don’t go, “OK, they got it, they’ll take care of it. I trust them.”

Don’t trust anybody. You just never know. Even the people who were working for me ripped me off. It happens, so you just really have to… that’s the other important part about the business. “The music business” – it should be “the business of music.”

If it were the other way around, we would learn more and know more about the business, which is so important. You hear about all these artists – God bless you – after 30 or 40 years playing, and like you say, come home broke. We have to do fundraisers to raise money for their funeral, or they’re sick or something. This is every day, still. So, make sure you learn the businesses. It’s really important. Save your money, put it away.

I mean, again – the first time I was going to sign my record deal, they gave me some money, a check, and I went to go buy a Maserati. But someone had the sense to turn around and say, “Sheila, are you sure you want to get that?”

I said, “Yeah, the guy said it was only had to put 25,000 down.” I said, “That’s not a big deal, I got a check.”

“Yeah, but you’ve got to pay that money back and then the insurance on that Maserati.”

Then I said, “I get it. Never mind.” I took it back, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

On that note, do you recall hearing yourself on the radio for the first time?

Sheila E

Yes. I was driving down Sunset Boulevard and I had a rented car. It was a Mercedes – a red one, I remember – and I had the sunroof open. I was making a left to go to this very famous deli called Greenblatt’s – you know that place, yeah, with the lemon cake – and there are two lanes on Sunset. I guess the third lane is sometimes… you can’t park there. It’s where the meters are. At certain times, you can drive through there.

I’m making a left and the song is on, “Glamorous Life.” I was like, “Oh, my God, ‘Glamorous Life’! It’s on the radio.” It’s the first time I’m hearing it and I’m yelling and screaming, “Oh, my God!” I’m looking to make sure, and I get ready to pull up the hill – and a car slams into me. Totals the Mercedes. First of all, I’m glad I wasn’t hurt.

I got out of the car and I looked at the person – this guy, who was just zooming down Sunset. I turned around, I got out the car, and I was like, “Are you okay? Are you okay?”

He’s like, “Yeah, are you okay?” I mean, he messed up the car. And it was a rented car, too. I said, “I’m OK – that’s my song on the radio!” Anyway, then I called the guy. These are [back in] the days when you can just keep ordering things. I was like, “Hey, man. I just got into a car wreck. Can you come and bring me a black Mercedes?” No joke. That’s what happened, for real.

Torsten Schmidt

Then, like what happened with Marvin, the taxman comes knocking as well.

Sheila E

Yeah. No, taxes I pay. I’m good. I don’t mess with Uncle Sam.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, at least Marvin got a really great record out of that, so.

Sheila E

Yes, he did. Marvin did, yeah. Yeah. That’s the thing, again, the tax situation. You’ve got to pay your taxes, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Seeing that we just were on Sunset, you had a quick flirt with Hollywood as well. I think it’s kind of an appropriate time to play clip number 10 please.

Sheila E

I know what this is.

(video: Krush Groove Allstars – “Krush Groovin”)

Torsten Schmidt

You do have quite a big part in that movie.

Sheila E

Yeah. That was pretty interesting. I think I was on the second half of the tour – no, the end of the Purple Rain tour. I’d been out for a year and they wanted me to go audition with Blair Underwood, and so I went to New York and we did a quick little spot to make sure that we had chemistry. They said, “Yeah, let’s do it,” and I’m like, “OK.”

I was so tired and exhausted. That situation was good and bad. Good and bad meaning that I was exhausted… I had worked so hard. The second part about it was there was an East Coast – West Coast rivalry thing. I came in as a musician, Sheila E, with all my people and the band, everyone that worked with us – and a lot of the rappers there… their situation was a little bit different.

At one point we were shooting “A Love Bizarre” and the audience – it’s supposed to be in a club scene – they’re all extras. The director says, “OK, ready, roll.” They start going into it, we play “Love Bizarre” at the end, and the audience is supposed to clap, yay, yeah. They’re supposed to be acting. At the end of “A Love Bizarre,” no one clapped. The audience was like this [crosses arms, looks angry].

Torsten Schmidt

A warm, New York greeting, then.

Sheila E

Hating. Then the director said, “Cut.” He’s like, “What are you guys doing? You’re supposed to be… we’re shooting a movie!” They were so mad at me. They’re like, “Who’s this girl, coming in trying to rap?” I said, “I’m not trying to rap. I’m just coming in playing.” We were doing “Holly Rock,” “A Love Bizarre,” and whatever. It was like, again: East Coast, West Coast. There was vibes happening and…

I never really quit doing anything, if I do something I’m going to follow through. But in the middle of shooting that movie, I just quit. I was like, “I’m done. I don’t need to be in all this mess.” Anyway, I ended up staying and doing the movie and a lot of those people in that film are major, huge, big stars, and we all became friends. It’s crazy.

Torsten Schmidt

Some of which are not around anymore.

Sheila E

Some are not around. The Fat Boys, from Run-DMC, DJ, not around. There are a couple of other people, but Rick Rubin? I mean all those guys are big major producers. And LL Cool J, who had just started, he wasn’t doing much of anything. Russell Simmons… we had a lot of people in that movie.

Torsten Schmidt

The plot line was loosely based on Def Jam.

Sheila E

Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

I guess that’s fair to say.

Sheila E

Yeah, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

OK.

Sheila E

Yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Right, but there weren’t that many girl MCs on Def Jam at that time.

Sheila E

There might have been one if there was, but I don’t know any. There weren’t that many. Like I said, I wasn’t trying to rap. I was just coming in. They asked me to be in the movie. I didn’t know I was going to get hated on.

Torsten Schmidt

You got a pretty prominent part. It’s a pretty great performance of “A Love Bizarre” in there.

Sheila E

Yeah. The script was a little bit easy. It wasn’t that we had to read a lot, and he really wanted us to improvise as well – like just pretend that things were… what would you say if this happened or that happened. It was just a little bit of a script, but we had fun with it once we got into it.

Torsten Schmidt

Again, a lot of those things then traveled, were picked on VHS or bought up by foreign TV stations.

Sheila E

Right.

Torsten Schmidt

Then, all of a sudden, that was the way that kids on the other side of the world found out. “That’s how they actually dress, and that’s how they behave.”

Sheila E

Right. Yeah. I was just getting into Run-DMC and Kurtis Blow. I mean, I knew of their music but I didn’t know them well and then after that, I was like, “Well, wait a minute – I know some of these songs.” I didn’t realize that was them. It was pretty interesting. Now, that movie has become something that everyone looks at as “one of those movies that they didn’t think was going to do well” – but they keep playing it, over and over again, so it’s okay.

Torsten Schmidt

We just mentioned “Love Bizarre” and I would like to play clip number 11, which is a live performance on the Johnny Carson Tonight Show.

Sheila E

You’ve got a lot of stuff.

Torsten Schmidt

It’s the power of the Internet.

(video: Sheila E – “Erotic City”)

I think it was a really interesting moment. There you go, just to put it into perspective, what was The Tonight Show at that time?

Sheila E

One of the biggest television shows out, with Johnny Carson, yeah. It was hard to get on this show, and it was a great opportunity to be able to do that. I wanted to show a little bit of versatility with not just… “A Love Bizarre” wasn’t a song that I played timbales on anyway, and we just kind of put that little instrumental part in there so I could just take a quick solo, because that’s not what I did on “A Love Bizarre.”

Then I wanted to, at least, try to showcase, in a short amount of time, me playing drums as well, because I thought that that was important. The hard thing about it was, again, jumping onto the drums in those boots that came up to here: with the heels, about five-and-a-half inches, and trying to play; my knees wouldn’t bend, I couldn’t move.

It was horrible but you had to do it…“Take one for the team” and just try to do what you can. It’s like, “Can I just take my boots off and then go?” But if you take your boots off, you end it because you’re not going to have any time. I couldn’t get the boots off anyway. I needed two people to pull them off. That wasn’t going to work. I just had to play in them. That was a great opportunity.

Torsten Schmidt

You made really good use of it. I just can’t imagine the discussions between management, the production and the TV station, and whatnot. It’s like, I mean they all clearly wanted you to play the hot song of the moment, and you were like, “No, no, no, we’re going to add some flavor to this.”

Sheila E

Yeah. Doc Severinsen loved it at the time, and they had a big band, so it was like, “Yeah, let her play.” One of the times I played – I forgot the guy who used to play drums with Doc Severinsen – I think at one point I was going to sit on his drum set, but it was just so big that I couldn’t reach anything. It felt like a big Flintstone kit, so I asked, “Can I just bring my drums?”

Torsten Schmidt

Speaking of bringing your drums, why are these standing here?

Sheila E

I have no idea.

Torsten Schmidt

Is there a way we could somehow persuade you to…

Sheila E

No, no.

Torsten Schmidt

OK, well.

Sheila E

OK, no. Go ahead, I’m sorry.

Torsten Schmidt

I guess lunch is beckoning… but maybe before that… What people wonder a lot about, especially when they’re coming from the programming world, [is that] they get all these fancy plugins and all these extra loops of percussion, but they’ve got no idea of how to really place them. We’re going to do something a little later in the studio, where we’re going to set up the same drum kit again, and you can ask all those questions about how to mic them properly and how to make sure that you get the best possible recording. For now, it might be nice to get a sense of the different rhythms, because a lot of it got summarized under Latin or salsa, or just terms that encompass myriad different rhythms.

If we could kindly ask you to explain a little bit of what to look for in different rhythms – and what makes them specific – there might be one or two people in here who would appreciate that.

Sheila E

OK. Well, first of all, let me say this. I don’t read or write music. I just play from my heart. The second thing is that I don’t know hardly any names of any rhythms that I play. I know that something that my dad played, and I just kind of mimic that, like a rumba, or a Mozambique, or a samba. I kind of know those basic terms and rhythms, but to break things down like some of my other friends that really know the history…

Torsten Schmidt

It’s not a history lesson. It’s about rhythm now.

Sheila E

OK. But basically I want to say this – and I am a percussionist who plays percussion on drums – I’m not the drummer who plays percussion. There’s a difference. If I had congas here I would show you a rhythm on the congas, which I can do. Or I’ll just play them on the toms. What I did was that everything that I played on the congas, I’d said, “You know what? If I played them on the drums, I wonder – would that work?” And it did for me. Also, I kept changing the way that I set up. If anyone sees that, you’ll see that the double-kick pedal’s on the outside of the hi-hat, and most male drummers use the kick drum on the inside.

Because my back went out, I tried to figure out how I could play sitting straight as opposed to like this, because after a while I was all twisted and my back hurt…

[Sits at drums and begins to play examples of rhythms]

One-two: okay. I’ll just play like a Mozambique that I would play. You’re not going to hear all the tones, but what I would normally play on congas. Then if I play it with the sticks and this. Right. Then do it with the kickdrum. The kickdrum is actually playing that other part. That is played here. Then I add the hi-hat. Are these my sticks? That’s still the Mozambique. It’s still the same part. Start with this. Then I’m going to add the kick drum, the second kick drum. Then the hi-hat, and the kick drum double-kick. Same beat, but if you just use different techniques… same beat.

Thank you. The left kickdrum, I kind of use as another hand. If I play with one kick drum it just doesn’t feel the same. While most drummers will play with the one kickdrum, I use the second one because it’s easier. The other way is like… I’d have to practice. Basically, for me, like I said, let’s see... playing drums… the important thing is to be able to play them in time and really have great tempo. Some of the things that drummers do, in playing drums, are that if they’re playing really hard, they play loud and it starts to speed up. When you ask them to play soft, sometimes it just slows down for whatever reason. It’s hard to try to keep time and play really soft at the same intensity without the tempo changing.

It’s really hard to do: to play it soft and still play the tempo, or even singing and playing is even crazier. Or when we’re playing the kickdrum – which we’ll probably do, and you will – I mean, with a click. Trying to play to the click – or talking or playing or singing – when the click is in your ear, the rest of the band can’t hear it, but you’re going to play… not like this, because then it sounds like you’re playing to the click. You have to play kind of relaxed, still in the pocket, but… and just play relaxed, with that click going.

Now I’m getting punch drunk because I haven’t slept since I got here yesterday. I’m on 32 hours being up. That’s not good. OK, so, other rhythms. Like I said, with the conga drum beats and stuff that I play, usually I have a cowbell here. Maybe we’ll get one by the time we do the session. I use the cowbell like the hi-hat, and I play other rhythms with the cowbell as well. Playing with my dad, with Latin jazz music, he really doesn’t need to hear the hi-hat as much, so that cowbell is his hi-hat. I really play rhythms by just playing time, like with that Mozambique. I’ll just play that so that he can hear that cowbell, and play solo and do his thing. What else did you want me to play?

Torsten Schmidt

I’m kind of torn in at least three minds here. Obviously we’ve got Mr Schepps here later, and I guess you can do your thing in the studio, so maybe we’ll reserve some of that for later.

Sheila E

OK.

Torsten Schmidt

There are one or two more things: would you like to join us here again?

Sheila E

I will. Hold on – before you do that. One second. [Stands up and picks timbale before sittig back down on the couch] I know I can do that in the studio, I’ll show it to you. It’s OK. You can change it. I’ll show it to you. Here, I have this. That’s good. OK. Did we bring a stand, Michael? We didn’t, okay. Anyway, my timbales – these are pretty heavy be-cause they have these crystal things around here. Anyway. I try to come up with ways of micing things. My brother over there, he’s the expert, but I do traditional and I say “traditional” meaning that I’ll put a 57 – that’s over there now – on my snare, use a couple of different mics in my kickdrum, and on the outside I use different mics for the overheads and different mics for the hi-hat.

A lot of the time with the timbales, sometimes they’re on stage and I have to get them off-stage really quickly. We tried to put rollers on the bottom of the stand for the timbales. I’m actually building this new kit of timbales that’s coming out in January – you’ll see it with the hydraulic stuff, it’s kind of cool.

With this, instead of having to take this apart and micing it with a 57, I took the inside – see that? – and we mounted the jack right here on the outside of the timbales. I plugged it in right here, and I took a 57 and cut it in half. Ooooh, you want to know about that! So now, [because of] where this is placed, we can actually change out these mics. But it sounds so good because it’s getting the sound right where it needs to be.

You say “traditional” and we can do “traditional,” but I just always try to come up with and try to do something different, all of the time. The other day I was recording with Hans Zimmer, and I used a 57 on the hi-hat. I know that’s different, but it sounded hecka good. Anyway. The man over there – he’s the pro. I do different things in the studio.

Michael Davison is over there. He’s been working with me for 15 years and records all of my stuff. Sometimes if I’m trying to play timbales or percussion and I’m recording, and he’s not in my studio with me, we’ll do it remotely. He’s in Minneapolis and I’m in LA. He remotely punches me in and, all the while, I’m playing from LA on my computer in the studio. We do stuff like that. Technology.

Torsten Schmidt

Before we break for lunch, I’d love to hear a little bit about you as a vocalist and a songwriter again. For the sound of high fidelity, I’d like to use this thing they call vinyl.

Sheila E

I love it. Listen to that sound… [Sings] That would be the wrong speed.

(music: Sheila E – “Erotic City”)

Torsten Schmidt

Classic moment.

Sheila E

First, let me say: I didn’t say the F word. I said “funk,” and he said the other word because I said I wasn’t going to say that word, so I didn’t. Then he put his word underneath mine. But I said “funk” – “F-U-N-K” – thank you very much. OK, go ahead.

Torsten Schmidt

Well, obviously all I cared about was the drum machine, again, that was used on there, but…

Sheila E

Really? Well, here’s the thing – my little secret in the studio, with the Linn machine at that time – we had a couple of Linn machines... I guess I can tell the secret. Darn. It doesn’t matter.

Torsten Schmidt

We can edit stuff. It can stay in the room [for the sake] of privacy here.

Sheila E

Sure. No, no, I’m just kidding. No, what I did was with the Linn drum machine was with the inputs in the back. I had BOSS guitar pedals, and I put something on the hi-hat or something on the snare, so all that stuff that you hear on all songs like “A Love Bizarre” is us using the BOSS guitar pedals on all the different sounds. We’d do it on the fly. There’s no punching in. We just run the drum machine – bam, bam, and bam – just because we were recording on tape. Do you guys know about that? Right, we were recording to 24-track tape. They only had 24 tracks to get everything done, and then having to cut that tape. It was kind of crazy.

Torsten Schmidt

Who was cutting it?

Sheila E

I cut tape, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Right – with a razor?

Sheila E

With the razor blade, yeah.

Torsten Schmidt

Where did you learn that?

Sheila E

Myself.

Torsten Schmidt

Yeah?

Sheila E

I taught myself. When I wanted to start writing and being a producer, at around 14 or 15 years old, I think my first little recording instrument was a cassette. Back then, you could have two tracks on a cassette. Then it became four tracks on a cassette, and then I got a reel-to-reel tape, and started cutting tape and using that. I just bought equipment and taught myself.

Then again – being in the studio with my dad, and with different people, like George – I ended up engineering a lot of stuff. I was just like, “Let me punch you in. I’m quick. I can get that in and out, just like that.” A lot of the stuff that you hear on Prince’s record between ’85 and ’88, I pretty much engineered a lot of his solos. It was just he and I. If there was something he couldn’t punch in, or if he couldn’t punch himself in then I would do all of that.

Torsten Schmidt

Does intimacy in recording…. speaking of intimacy, we might have to shut off the snare again.

Sheila E

Yeah, that snare. Sorry.

Torsten Schmidt

I mean, it’s one great privilege to have all this stuff at the hand of professionals, but then sometimes you do want that intimate recording situation. We talked about Marvin [Gaye] before, and some of his greatest work was done in studio with him and one engineer – and that’s that. You had similar experiences of working in a really confined sort of way. How many people do you need to be present to get your best work out of you?

Sheila E

Well, it’s interesting. I mean, a lot of times I’m recording until 3 AM or 6 AM. Sometimes I write better at night. I don’t know if it’s because it’s quiet – and I do record other things during the day, or if it’s vocals or something else… whatever. But sometimes there’s just no one in the studio. I record a lot of my own stuff myself, but I really love recording with the band live. My last record, Iconic, we did that. We recorded live in the studio. I set up my drums where I could see the whole band, and we played. They had not heard all the music that I had written for the project.

I played them a little bit of it. They got what key it was in, because I couldn’t tell them, because I didn’t know, but here’s the melody and here’s the tempo, I want to play. We recorded all the songs with my band, live in the studio, and we did everything in three days. Then I started doing the overdubs, the vocals and some percussion that I couldn’t play [at the time], since I was playing the drums. We did it fairly quickly, but I like playing in the studio with people. It’s more fun.

Also, the other part of it is writing. It’s like… I don’t want to just write by myself all the time. I like collaborating, because other people bring ideas that I would not think of, and influence me to do something totally different than I wouldn’t have done otherwise. That’s what’s great about collaborating.

One of the things, again, about writing songs – you songwriters, you make sure you have something written on paper with people. Someone says, “I wrote the bridge,” “No, you didn’t…” – and you get sued later. There are a couple of people, friends of mine, who sued me recently. They had to pay a whole bunch of money.

When you’re sampling, giving the person that you’re sampling credit. That’s very important. What I do – which I think is what a lot of the writers in Nashville do – is that if there’s three or five or us in a room, whoever’s not writing or doing anything needs to step out of the room. Only the people who are going to write [should be in the room] and if there’s five of us that are just going to play and jam, I split it five ways.

I don’t care if you just wrote one word. You’re in the room. You’re playing something that meant something to me and to the rest of the people playing, and so I split it evenly – five ways, three ways, six ways – with whoever is in the room.

I don’t want to argue about, “I did a third of this,” and “I wrote the chorus, that’s the most important part.” That doesn’t go on. Make sure you figure out before you start to write something with someone that you know what you’re going to do, and make sure the business is taken care of. It’s very important.

Torsten Schmidt

Before we take care of lunch business, we’d like to play one more video. That would be number 13, please.

(music: Sheila E – “Koo Koo”)

Thank you. Compared to what we’ve seen earlier, sonically, that’s a mildly different way of arranging and approaching the track. What went on there?

Sheila E

It’s different. There are really no changes. It was just the same bassline throughout the whole thing. You basically rap, with a little bit of melody, on top of the same thing that just played, over and over again.

Torsten Schmidt

What inspired you at that time to do this sort of thing, then?

Sheila E

I don’t even remember. It was too long ago. With the first record I did, “Glamorous Life,” I knew some of the stuff that I wanted to record. The second record that I did was during the Purple Rain Tour. If had any time, if I had six hours, I would to stop somewhere in a city, go and record, and then go right to soundcheck. That’s how I got the second record done. Then the third record – there’s just different things that happened. During that “Koo Koo” song, I don’t even know. I have no idea. I think because I’m hungry. I really can’t think right now.

Torsten Schmidt

OK, If hungry is the word…

Sheila E

It is!

Torsten Schmidt

You said that you were happy to take two or three participant questions, and then we can have more during the session in the studio later.

Sheila E

Absolutely.

Torsten Schmidt

Participants only, please. Do we have a microphone in circulation, and do we have a question for Ms Sheila Escovedo?

Sheila E

Over there. Forget that. I’ll go to him because I need to eat. I’m just saying. [Walks into audience, sits next to participant and puts arm around him]. How are you doing, sir? I’ll come over here. OK, what’s your name?

Audience member

Pablo.

Sheila E

Pablo?

Audience member

Yes.

Sheila E

Where are you from, Pablo?

Audience member

Mexico.

Sheila E

Mexico, OK. What’s your question?

Borchi

My question is – given that you’re a drummer and you work on drums – how do you construct your songs? Do you do a melody, and then do drums to follow that melody? Or do you do drums, and then a melody to follow the drums? And how do you like match them? How do you put aside your own drums to build a song?

Sheila E

It’s always different when I write a song. A lot of times it doesn’t have anything to do with the drums. Lionel Richie always told me that if you’re going to write a good song… I know, he’s right here [puts head on participant’s shoulder]. Why are you pushing me away?

Borchi

No, no, no, no [laughter].

Sheila E

Lionel Richie told me one time that a good song is a melody and lyrics. It has nothing to do with production, or with technology. A good song is a good song, meaning melody and lyrics. It just depends on what kind of song you want to write. If it’s like a dance song, I’ve got to start with drums and a drum machine, or the loop or something. It depends on what mood I’m in, what I’m going to write, and then I just start adding the drums and then making sure that the percussion doesn’t get in the way. Or if it’s going to be very percussive, put a lot of percussion on it.

Audience member

OK [laughter and applause].

Sheila E

OK. Awesome.

Audience member

Thank you.

Sheila E

Alright…

Torsten Schmidt

We will take one more.

Sheila E

One more question. Seriously? Way over there? Oh my God. OK, you got him. Yeah, you come over here. Come sit by me. Now see that mic doesn’t work.

Audience member

Hello, here we go.

Sheila E

There you go.

Audience member

I can sit here if you want, it might be easier [sits on the Red Bull couch_].

Sheila E

Spotlight, really?

Audience member

I’ll make this quick because I’m also starving. According to, like, “Prince lore,” or history, or mythology, or whatever, there were these extended jams before shows, after shows – it was kind of music all day long. When you said just there that you used to take any time that you could to go to the studio, I’m just wondering if that’s true and how intense it was? Were you playing music all of the time?

Sheila E

Yeah. At least 10 hours a day.

Audience member

Wow.

Sheila E

If we weren’t in the studio, and we were on tour, we were doing soundcheck. Soundcheck was two hours. Then the show was about two-and-a-half hours. Then we’d go to the hotel to change, and, if we could, eat real quick, go to the after-hours club around 1 AM or 2 AM and start jamming for another two or three hours – and then go to the next and do it again.

Gareth Anton Averill

Do you think back on that time fondly or was it like…

Sheila E

Absolutely.

Gareth Anton Averill

Yeah, OK.

Sheila E

Are you kidding? I had a blast. I’m not mad at that at all.

Gareth Anton Averill

OK. Let’s eat. Thank you so much.

Torsten Schmidt

I think that, as a good Irishman, you would like to join me in getting up – and I’d like to have everyone else get up – in thanking Ms Sheila Escovedo.

[Standing ovation]