Tony Dawsey

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Our guest today, you've inevitably heard his work on various projects, too numerous to name, but if you've ever heard any records by Jay-Z, or productions by DJ Premier, or even the trailer to the film Gladiator, you've probably encountered his stuff, we're very excited to have him here, so please welcome Mr. Tony Dawsey.

[applause]

Tony Dawsey

Thank you, thank you, I appreciate it, thank you.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So Tony, your field, your profession, sound mastering. If I was from outer space and I came down and saw your name on a record, how would you explain in the most fundamental terms to me what it is that you do? How come your name is everywhere? What do you do?

Tony Dawsey

Well, to me, mastering is like icing on the cake. I say that to quite a few people because it’s something that is very understandable. If you ever had some cake before, a little icing on it, if it’s a good cake, makes it that much better. And that’s what we do in the mastering stage. I’ll take what people give me and I try to make it a little bit better. A little sounding better all across the board. It’s a craft, it takes a lot of time. For years, I worked at being where I’m at. It’s not something that happens overnight, so to speak.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, you work at Masterdisk. What are some of the other well-known mastering houses in New York along with Masterdisk that people would probably be familiar with?

Tony Dawsey

Definitely Sterling Sound. They are our competition. There is a lot of them now. With the Pro Tools machine coming along, there is a lot of them who opened up over the last few years. But in New York, you have Sterling Sound, Masterdisk, you have The Hit Factory, Absolute Audio. There is a quite few of them, really quite a few of them. There is also a lot of them that have a Pro Tools rig and they're calling themselves mastering engineers now. There is quite a few of them also. They range from all over the place, you have the low-budget ones as well as the high-end stuff. Masterdisk likes to think that we’re one of the best. There are about six engineers that work there along with myself and a wide range of music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Who are some of the other guys who work over there?

Tony Dawsey

Everybody's familiar with Howie Weinberg, who does a lot of stuff like Nirvana and all that type of stuff, the Beastie Boys. There is also Andy VanDette. There is Dave Kutch there now. Lately, unfortunately, we've had one room that has been rotating with a lot of engineers. For a while, it was Leon Zervos, Greg Calbi. We once had Bob Ludwig, who is still regarded as one of the better mastering engineers out there. He left and opened up his own place up in Maine.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

OK, OK, and he is still working though, he is doing stuff like Bruce Springsteen?

Tony Dawsey

He is doing a lot of big, big rock stuff. People that don't have a budget when they want to master records.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Right. Well, I think your story is pretty interesting and how you got into this. Maybe you could you jump into that? You’ve been a music fan your whole life, but it wasn’t like being a sound engineer was your goal from the start... So, maybe you could tell everybody how you got started in the business?

Tony Dawsey

It’s been an interesting journey, I guess. I didn’t start out wanting to be a mastering engineer or engineer, period. At this stage of my life, I thought I’d be a photographer, really. That’s what I wanted to do when I left high school, is to get into advertising or fashion photography.

But what happened is, I got a job at Masterdisk as a messenger/mail-room person to support me through photography school. And a month later they started showing me how to do things in the music world. Back then in the day–I’ve been there for 24 years now, I started in 1980–back then, quarter-inch tape copies were the standard way to make cassettes from. And that’s what I started doing way back then. Making cassettes, reel-to-reel tapes and so forth. And one thing led to another. I put the camera down, and I got involved in the mastering end of the business.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So that is pretty remarkable, starting in the mail room and now you got your own room at Masterdisk. You’ve been there for 20+ years. From doing the tape copying, how did it progress as far as you learning the ropes and everything?

Tony Dawsey

Well, at first I want to say that I’m a very lucky and blessed man. I want that to be known. Music has always been a big part of my life. Always. From way, way back. As a kid, my mom used to go to work at like midnight and she would turn the radio on and leave it on in the house. So, not only did I go to bed to music, I woke up to music. As a young man–growing up as an 11-, 12-year-old—the group of guys I hung out with, that's all we did was listen to music. We’d go to each other’s house and just play music.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You grew up in New York?

Tony Dawsey

I grew up in New York, Spanish Harlem. Back then, records were only four dollars. So, me and the group of guys I grew up with, that’s what we did. We got money–I used to work at a paper route as an 11-year-old and we’d go downtown and buy records for four dollars. All types of music: Hamilton Bohannon, James Brown, The Stylistics, Parliament/Funkadelic, all that type of stuff. Records were cheap and that’s what we did. Listen to music, music, music all day and all night. I ended up leaving New York City and went away to a prep school in Maine. And while I was there, I got involved in a show called “American Spirit,” where we used to tour up and down the East Coast all the time. Again, it was a nice experience to learn and so forth.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You said “show.” What type of show? You know, was it a traveling review or something?

Tony Dawsey

Yes, it was a musical revival. We did song and dance and were driving up the East Coast during the summers and even throughout the year. So, that was just another bit of exposure to the music business. And again, I didn’t think I’d be involved into it, I did until I’d set out to do so. Leaving that school, I wanted to be a photographer. That’s what I wanted to do. But all stages of my life I felt like, it's helped lead me to where I’m at now. Whether we’re talking about my mother leaving the radio on at night, me buying records as a young man with the group of guys I hung out with and then being involved in that show. When I got a job at Masterdisk, it was just to support me through photography school. And back then in New York, the club scene was really happenin’ it was really poppin’. I spent a lot of time at clubs dancing and having fun and doing things that a 18-year-old person did.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What places did you go out to back then?

Tony Dawsey

Oh boy! There was a whole lot of clubs. You know, some people call ’em “discos”–I hate that name. We just called them “clubs.” A place where people go and meet to dance and have fun. It was Paradise Garage, Justine’s, Neil Gwinn's. Just a tremendous amount of clubs and a big party scene in New York. It’s not quite like that anymore. But all of that stuff I think, contributed to me knowing what sounded good, and then, as I started at Masterdisk and I got involved in this, I was trained by some very good individuals: Bob Ludwig, Bill Kipper, Alan Moy. I just saw it as a plus: I was like, “I can do this!” The more I learned and everything, I was like, “I can do this because I felt I know what sounds good.” You know, it was just a matter of learning the equipment and then perfecting my craft, so to speak.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Do you remember what the first record was you worked on?

Tony Dawsey

I really don’t remember. Because what happened back then is people who had a preference would call up and choose to work with one of several different engineers. And we had something called “C.O.D. clients,” who were people who came in off the street and just wanted their record mastered. They didn’t care who did it, really. And that’s what I did. I started out doing those type of records all the time. Before I progressed into making a name for myself and having a clientele.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So that would be any genre pretty much? Whatever the person wanted?

Tony Dawsey

All types of music, all types and everything.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Well then, I guess, you know, walk us through the process. Has it changed? How much has it changed from back then to now? Is the fundamental concept more or less the same?

Tony Dawsey

Technology I would say more than anything. Technology just doesn’t stand still. When I first started in the ‘80s at Masterdisk, probably 90% of the music came in on quarter-inch tape. Either 15ips or 30ips. For those of you who don’t know, ips stands for “inches per second.” From there, years later, it became half-inch. Half-inch tape. After half-inch tape, the digital age came about. It was F-1 Beta and VHS tapes. From there, we got involved to open-reel digital, came into play, and years later the CD came into play. So, it's changed quite a bit since the 1980s and now you have all kinds of digital computers are into play. In terms of people are recording and mixing their music onto that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, the technology has obviously changed a lot. But as far as your approach to what you do, has that changed at all from back then?

Tony Dawsey

Not at all. As I said earlier, I feel mastering is icing on the cake. So when I get a project in from anybody, I take what you give me and I just wanna try and make it a little better, if there is room to do so.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So what constitutes “good sound” or a good-sounding record in your estimation?

Tony Dawsey

I think it’s important for everything to be clean. Bass-wise, I like my bass tight, punchy–not muddy and tubby so to speak. I like my top end open and airy. And the mid range nice and crisp also. The truth is, not all records aren't created equal. Some sound better than others, that’s for sure. And one of the worst things an engineer can go through is somebody to comes in with a tape that doesn’t sound very good and then tell you to make it sound like one of the better sounding records that are on the market.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What are some of the things people are coming and tell you?

Tony Dawsey

“Make it sound like a Dr. Dre record!” “Make It sound like a Jay-Z record,” or something like that. And it’s not easy. It’s not easy at all.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What do you say, you can’t polish...

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, I have a little saying to myself, “You can’t polish a turd.” If it doesn’t come in sounding somewhere in the ballpark, you just ain’t going to get it. It doesn’t work like that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You want to play anything as far citing examples? You know, we can describe sound but maybe playing it will demonstrate things a little more clearly.

Tony Dawsey

If people would have asked me which format I like to master from, I still really prefer half-inch 30ips. It’s just very dynamic, it’s very open and I just love it. I know in this digital age, it’s not always cost-sufficient to do that. A lot of people are coming in with DATs and CDs or computer files because it’s simple, it’s cheap. But my best-sounding records, I feel, are still done off of half-inch. There is a new technology out that is very, very expensive and people aren’t using it because of that, and that’s a one-inch tape. I was lucky enough to work on Kelly Price’s last album and it was the first record I did that was mastered off a one-inch tape. Very incredible. Incredibly dynamic, incredibly clean. I didn’t have to EQ that record much at all somehow, which I find amazing. I have a couple of diffeent little things here I want to play you, just to let you know, what I feel is something that is very dynamic. I have a Jay-Z record here. It was mastered off a half-inch, 30ips, no noise-reduction tape. I'll just play a piece of a few cuts for you, just to let you see, how dynamic it is.

(music: Jay-Z - “Change the Game”)

Tony Dawsey

[bobs head to the beat] I love bass, I love it! I'm sorry, I can’t help it. You see me nodding a bit, and that’s what I do throughout the session. No matter if it’s jazz, R&B, whatever, I just love me some bass. And that is how I like my bass to sound: Just like that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What else do you want to say about that particular track as an example of what you find ideal?

Tony Dawsey

What I love about that stuff is the dynamic range. You have a very, very low octave of bass and yet you still have a lot of top end in there too. And that is to me a good recording, mixing and mastering job.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now that was all brought in, though, already sounding decent to you. So like you said, it’s really only what you said, sort of maximizing what is already there. Do you want to play anything else off of this?

(music: Jay-Z - “I Just Wanna Love U (Give It 2 Me”)

(music: Jay-Z - “Excuse Me Miss”)

Tony Dawsey

Well, back in the day, back in the early ‘80s and so forth and you go through up the ‘90s, let’s say you have an album come in on half-inch tape; it was normally done with one engineer, and one studio and perhaps with one producer. So, it was very, very consistent all across the board. These days, you can have an album that is 15 tracks and you could have seven different producers and it could be done in ten different studios across the country. That makes it a little bit more challenging to get it very consistent across the board. Because as I said before, all mixes are not created equal. So that seems to be the biggest challenge these days to mastering engineers is to try to get a project a bit consistent from track to track.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So what do you do? What’s the most severe sort of example of there being real disparate sounds on one record that you can maybe remember?

Tony Dawsey

In addition to some engineers are better than others, some studios are better than others. So, you may be only boosting one track a couple of dB of top end, and in the next track you may have to boost it four dB to keep it in synch with the other one. So, it’s a lot more challenging for sure. And I definitely think music was a lot more consistent when you had one studio, one format and one engineer so to speak.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

In this hip-hop era, is that more of a concern? It seems like with a lot of hip-hop albums you do have that example, but with live instrumentation is that also as severe or sort of an issue to deal with?

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, because you run into a problem where people ask you, “How come this track doesn’t sound as good as that track?” You know? Well, that track isn’t mixed as well as this track. This track was mixed at a not-as-good of a studio as that one. Sometimes people don’t understand that. A&R people, record company people–they don’t understand that stuff. And it’s your job to make it happen. To do what the hell you got to do to get it a little more consistent.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, how is the person, you know, that come in and you would work with? It’s not always a producer or artist. Who is the person?

Tony Dawsey

It’s one of four, if not all of them. You normally have somebody from the record company come in. Sometimes, one of the engineers of the project will come in, just to make sure that his stuff is right. Sometimes the artist comes in or a producer will come in, so you have a wide range of different people. Sometimes you have a room with ten different people in there. Everybody just wanting the best for the project

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I’m sure you love that when there is ten different people there? [laughs]

Tony Dawsey

Well, it’s not easy because everybody wants their stuff sounding right. Which is okay, that’s what we all want in common, but it’s difficult sometimes. If you thinking about trying to please ten different people and all, it’s just sometimes it's impossible. You'll get nine people happy about the way the track sounds and you get this one person saying that they want the bell to be louder or something like that. It’s a little crazy at times, but it’s part of what you do and you got to make the best of it.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Who’s been most hands-on from your experience? As far as producers or whoever, artists that you've worked with?

Tony Dawsey

Wow, it’s funny. I can probably name quite a few of them, but I know guys like DJ Premier. He is there from the start of the session to the end. He is very much hands-on, involved in everything that you’re doing, tellin’ you to do this or that, making suggestions. Reggie Noble is another one. When Premier and Reggie Noble are coming in, I know that I’m going to be there until five or six in the morning, unfortunately. I’m mastering records, and Reggie is, “I’m running down the street real quick and getting a sound effect for my skit,” or something.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Reggie Noble known to the public as...

Tony Dawsey

Redman.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What are some of the other things they'll going to say to you? Is there a consistent thing? Do you know when these guys come in that “I have to do it this certain way?"

Tony Dawsey

Definitely so with hip-hop more so than other things. They want that bass banging. They want it tight, they want it loud, they want it punchy. You heard some of the Jay-Z stuff I had been playing. Let me just play this for an example of something that doesn’t sound as good. And it’s no diss to this person, but…

(music: Jay-Z - “Get Your Mind Right Mami”)

Tony Dawsey

Now I’m going to play something for you and this was a very big record. It didn’t come in sounding good and it doesn’t sound good. So, you got a vibe, a little taste of Jay-Z and how I like records to sound. I’m going to play a record that sold about 12 million copies in the United States. It didn’t come in sounding good and you’re going to see the difference. It's no diss to this person. If they find out about this, they’re probably never going to work with me again, and this record was a very big record, like I said. It sold 12 million copies and so forth, but if you listen to what the music sounds like on here, you won’t get the same vibe you just got from the Jay-Z record.

(music: Kid Rock - “Cowboy”)

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, how long did you go at it then to try to get it to a place where you could be satisfied?

Tony Dawsey

I’d say, I normally can EQ a track where I'm happy and the people in the room are happy. I‘d say I listen to it three to five times or something like that and in the course of that, I EQ a record and get it sounding good. This took a little bit longer. It was a longer session, it took a lot more time.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now after the session–you have your standard–it obviously came out, and it didn’t bother 12 million record purchasers. What was the client saying? Were they cool with it?

Tony Dawsey

They were happy with it. I mean, when I EQ something, the people in my room, I play it beforehand and then I play it with EQ. So, right then and there, the people... Andy Karp came in on this, he is the A&R guy on Lava Records. Like I’d said, I’d play the record flat and with the output on the console with the EQ so you hear the difference right then and there. And they were very happy with this record. I mean, I saw him not very long ago and he was talkin’ about, “This is the guy who put the bass on our record,” and so forth. [smiles] It wasn’t quite the way I would have liked it to sound. And of course, all records aren’t created equal. I don’t try to master every record to sound like a Jay-Z record. I just don't.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I noticed that the rapping is a little bit better on this Jay-Z album, too. [laughs] What could you have done...

Tony Dawsey

You didn’t hear me say that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Why couldn’t you help that aspect of this record?

Tony Dawsey

Nah, I don’t get that involved so to speak, with the people [laughs].

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

As far as the hip-hop thing goes, being a professional in this industry... Well, let me ask you this first: Your career predates hip-hop somewhat, as far being what it is now. Did you bring something different to the table or have to hear things with a different ear to work on hip-hop records as opposed to other genres?

Tony Dawsey

It’s kind of funny. Back in the ‘80s when I started equalizing records and mastering records and so forth, I was doing a lot of rock & roll. Then there was a time, where I was doing a lot of heavy metal and there was a point where I was doing a lot of jazz. And then, what happens is you get your name on a few records that sell a lot of copies, and then everybody wants to be a part of that. Back in 1987, I had my first #1 album that was the La Bamba soundtrack. [Audience laughs] You know, something totally different. Years after that, I started doing the Das EFX, the Redmans, stuff like that. And, of course, a lot of those records sold very well and all, and then people just gravitated to you and wanted to be a part of that. The thing most engineers hate about it is that you get kind of categorized and put into that mode. I like all types of music, to be honest with you. Most of you will probably be surprised to know that when I’m home, relaxin', chillin’, I listen to a group called Fourplay. I love their music, all their albums. My daughter is constantly saying to me, “Dad, all you listen to is Fourplay.” I said, “Baby, they got eight albums. That is a lot of music to listen to.” [Audience laughs] And I love that type of stuff. The music I’m listening to is really a reflection of my mood. I can go and listen from a Fourplay album to Yes, a little Dr. Dre or whatever. It depends on my mood, really.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

But as far as the standards for hip-hop sounds, is it different? Do you bring something different to it than if you’re working in another genre or are you approaching it the exact same way?

Tony Dawsey

I don’t approach music any different, I really don’t, regardless of what type it is. I just take what the people give me. Out of the recording, out of the mixing session, I just want to try and make it sound a little better. I’ve been doing this for a long time so I bring a certain amount of experience to the table. And instantly, when I'm playing something back in my room, I go, “Uh, it needs a little boost on the top end,” and I start working on that. Or if I notice the bass needs a big boost, I immediately attack that. But I don’t have a different approach from one type of music to another. I really don’t, you know?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Yeah, you said not all records are created equal. I know that some producers in hip-hop are particularly known to have a grimy sound. Somebody like Wu-Tang, the RZA being one of those people. Have you had any experiences working with him?

Tony Dawsey

I had done a few of the records earlier with him. And you’re absolutely right, there is a griminess that he has.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Because if you play these records in a club, there is going to be an obvious sonic difference between playing these records.

Tony Dawsey

Definitely, you are right. I don’t know, if it’s done on purpose or it’s just the engineer/equipment that's used. But the RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan's records are definitely a bit grimy. It’s not that nice, tight, punchy bass that I love so much. A lot of people feel that’s his sound, that’s his style. I can’t tell you that that's done on purpose, I’m not sure it is. It’s just the way it turns out, I think. Same thing as you just heard with the Kid Rock record versus the Jay-Z. I think everybody wants to sound their record sounding as good as possible. Nice, tight, punchy bass, nice open top end and some crisp mids, but it doesn’t always happen that way, unfortunately.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I know that from working with rap people that there's different challenges as far as the etiquette goes sometimes. Can you probably elaborate on a couple examples? You don’t have to name names, but particular examples, particularly egregious when you came in thinking you were gonna be professional and prepared and maybe it didn’t turn out that way?

Tony Dawsey

[laughs] I guess the first thing that is obvious when dealing with–and I guess this happens more so with hip-hop than it does with other music–is just people being on time. Normally, I start my day at 11 or 12 o’clock. And quite a few people would show up at three or four o’clock. It’s kind of rough in terms of having a life and planning things afterwards. Because in this business, you just can’t do that. Like I said, my day normally starts between 11 and 12 o’clock and if I’m lucky, it ends between eight and ten o’clock. But many a instance, you're there until three, four, five o’clock in the morning. I can remember in the early days working with DJ Premier and maybe having something to do after work and trying to kind of rush a little bit, and it just didn’t work out. The more I rushed him, the more he went off to play some pool or got on the phone and made phone calls, so I learned not to make plans after work and just take it a song at a time, you know?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Were there any other people who were particularly memorable as far as like being in the studio? Did Jay-Z ever show up to his mastering sessions? I mean, are they following through as artists? Are they that far into the process or are they pretty much delegating responsibility at that point?

Tony Dawsey

It really depends on the individual. I think I worked on the last five Jay-Z records. And the first time I met him was when I was working on the first DMX album. He came in just to say “hi” and show a little support. Out of the five albums I have done on his, he came in on the last one, the one which he was supposed to be retiring from the business. He came in to, I guess, make sure that things were okay.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

It was a good thing he showed before he retired. Otherwise you might have never seen him again, right?

Tony Dawsey

[laughs] Exactly. Other than that, they normally depend on somebody to get the job done. Whether it’s an A&R person, an engineer or one of the producers and so forth. But it’s different with everybody. Sometimes the artists will come in themselves to oversee their project, but you can always depend on a record company person being there. Almost always.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Is that a good thing? Or is that a bad thing?

Tony Dawsey

No, I don’t mind working with people at all, I really don’t. It’s a very creative atmosphere and I just don’t have a problem with that. But I have a very nice room. You can check it out on the website, it’s very comfortable. Masterdisk, we feed our clientele, we have a pool table, conference room table, a computer. And we just try to make it very comfortable for people. And I’m a very easygoing guy, and all I want to do is to make your record sound the best it possibly can.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Now, as far as the length of a session goes or the time, you said yesterday you have some specific preferences that probably make a lot of sense as far as when you start your day at 11 or 12, that you don’t want to be doing what you’re doing. Can you elaborate a little bit about that?

Tony Dawsey

I definitely don't wanna be mastering your record at four o’clock in the morning. I’m a human being and us human beings get tired. It’s that simple. I know a lot of guys that mix and record a lot of times are put under the gun and you'll being in the studio for 12, 14, 16 hours to get the job done. Those mixes don’t normally turn out to be very good. So, you guys out here who are planning on mixing and recording, try not to do that. ’Cause what happens as human beings is the top ends disappear. So what do you do? You turn it up some, and the next day when you get back to the project, you wonder why the hell is so bright. So, if possible, I say stay away from that four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning crap. And find out within yourself, if eight hours is enough for you, if ten hours is enough, before you get a little burn out. I know, it’s easy for me to tell you this and to say that, but a lot of times you’re under the gun. The record companies putting pressure on you to “Get it done, to get it done. This record has to be put in tomorrow at 12 noon.” So, you end up doing what you have to do. But I can’t say most of the time those mixes turn out very well.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So if you’re put in a situation like that, what do you do to keep your ears fresh?

Tony Dawsey

I drink a lot of water. I may walk away and take a break here and there. And I definitely don’t monitor very loudly. A lot of people feel like they have to turn it up crazy loud. To me, all you're doing is testing out your speakers and the amplifiers and making yourself a little bit tired. We’re human beings, we’re not machines. A machine can go all day and all night, but we're human and we cannot do that. But most of the time, the last few hours of a session, you’re putting a record together and you make the copy. So even if I’m in the studio with Redman or DJ Premier to six in the morning, the last few hours are in fact, like I said, putting the record together and making the copies of it. Back in the day, when I told you about a project coming in on a half-inch or quarter-inch reel of tape, and being from one studio and one engineer, we used to be able to master an album in four hours. Back in the day. These days, it’s not the case. It used to also be anywhere from eight to 12 cuts on an album. These days it could be up to 20 cuts and so forth on the album. Therefore albums tend to go from eight hours on up and so forth. It definitely has changed in the game in that regard. And like I said, the fact that you get tapes coming in from studios all across the land, with different producers and all that, makes the sessions go a lot longer also.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You are raising your hand urgently...

Audience Member

Can you give an example of how loud you monitor? Play sound and say like this...?

Tony Dawsey

It’s a kind of a different set-up in here, but back in my studio I have three different types of speakers. I have some nice Genelecs sitting on the console right there, couple of feet from me. I have a big system in the back of the room and I have some nice small KRK monitors, which are nice for people sitting on the couch. Now, during the course of a session, I bounce around to all three of those. Certain people come in and they gonna turn up the music and I have to accept that. Like DJ Premier always turns it all the way up. That’s what he does. There is nothing that I can do about that. But as I EQ, I just play the normal listening level. Soemthing just...

(music: Kid Rock - “Devil Without A Cause”)

Audience Member

I was just wondering since you're getting a finished mix, if the vocals aren’t loud enough, will you request that they give you another mix with the vocals are louder or will you just EQ it a little bit different?

Tony Dawsey

The thing with mastering is, even while we're able to boost a lot of things in the mids, top end and in the bass, vocal is somewhat a real sticky area. If, let’s say the vocal level is two dB lower than what it should be, I cannot make up that two dB level EQ-wise. A good engineer will cover his ass, so to speak. On the master tape that they give you, they'll have a vocal up version, normally one db. It would be even smarter to have a couple of different ones. All it takes is a little bit of time. And it's a lot less time to print a vocal up one db, a vocal up two db, as it would for you to go back in and redo that. So, if time permits it, I would definitely suggest you do it like that. Is have your one vocal level, but then go and do it up a dB or two, just to cover yourself.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So you were saying early that people are not going to Masterdisk or any of those mastering houses, but are trying to go the cheap way or technologies afford them easier ways to do things. What are the drawbacks of people doing that?

Tony Dawsey

I’d say about 95% of the music I work on, I use an analog console. I have an old Neumann analog console with a whole lot of different equalizers and compressors. A lot of people these days are mastering their records in the Pro Tools machine that has a mastering menu. And it’s just not the same. I have done some tests. I remember engineer Richard Keller came in with the DMX album and we mastered on my console first or through my console. Then we went back and mastered in the Pro Tools machine. It’s just the warmth that you get off my analog console that you can’t get off of that Pro Tools machine or these computers that people have these days. I don’t know what to tell you about that. I think, it’s still something kind of new, I guess. The whole Pro Tools mastering thing. That machine is pretty incredible. It's helped to close down a lot of studios throughout the land, unfortunately. Because for ten or 20 grand, you can buy that machine and have your mixing console, your recording and everything just there. So, unfortunately, a lot of good studios in New York, as well as California and probably everywhere in-between are closing down because of that machine. The mastering menu, I still feel, has a way to go before you'll be on a level to get it where it's like what most of us can achieve at our console. I don’t know, I recently had some people calling me and telling me that they want to open up a mastering suite using a Pro Tools rig, but the guy was saying, I guess he was an engineer, “I can’t understand why I can’t get it to sound as good as some of your records?” And I was like: “Hmmm, that’s why I get the big bucks, I guess, you know?” [laughs] I’m not saying that you have to spend a lot of money to get your record mastered right, but there’s a level of difference, you know? I’ve been doing this for 20-something years. The Pro Tools rig has not been around that long. So, I’d say no matter what you're choosing to do, whether it’s recording, mixing or mastering, I think, it’s very important for you to spend the time to perfect your craft. You’re not going to be good overnight. We all have egos to some degree and all that, but it takes time. It takes time to be very, very good in what you do. So, I say, do your homework and put in your time to get to that level of excellence no matter what you choose to do.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Do you think that inevitably this technology is gonna improve to where they can give you that kind of warmth, the Pro Tools technology?

Tony Dawsey

I wouldn’t be surprised that it would. Something I realized in the years I’ve been doing, is that technology just doesn’t stop. On the consumer end as well as on the professional end. They are always coming out with something at the consumer end to get your money. I can remember, what was it? Used to be just Vinyl and cassettes. And then in ‘83 I bought my first CD player. After that I remember the minidisc came, digital compact cassette, just all kinds of stuff. On the consumer end they always try something to get your money. Now you have high-definition CDs and everything else. On the professional end, if you pick up Mix magazine from month to month, I feel sorry for studio owners because there is always another pair of speakers, there is always another amplifier, another mic or something that they are trying to sell you to make the whole recording process better. I think in years to come... I mean, the Pro Tools rig has come a long way from when they first came out. When that thing first came out, we had a choice to choose that machine, but we choose Sonic Solutions, we use it as a hard disk editing system. George Lucas of Star Wars fame invented it for video. We use it for music. That hasn’t kept up with technology. The Pro Tools rig has surpassed that and so I wouldn’t be surprised, if in years to come, the software gets better and that machine will perhaps take over some of the mastering studios.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So how does that make you feel on a personal level then as a direct thread to what you do?

Tony Dawsey

Well, like I said, I can’t stop technology and I know one day I won’t be mastering records anymore. I don’t have a problem with that. But I’m going to do it as long as I can and you kind of get what you pay for. I mean, yes, you can buy a Volkswagen or you can buy a Mercedes. They are both cars, but are they both the same? No, no. That’s the truth. Just like that person who called up asking, “Well I have a Pro Tools rig, I want to do mastering. Why can’t I make my records sound as good as yours?” There is a difference. It’s definitely a difference. I still prefer my analog console, I am not going to invest time into mastering off the Pro Tools rig. At this point at least, I’m not.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You talked a little bit about fatigue, ear fatigue, do you do anything to keep your ears specifically [protected] besides when you’re in the studio? Do you listen to music a lot in your spare time?

Tony Dawsey

In some ways I miss that. I think growing up as a young man, as a teenager, I think I listened and enjoyed music a lot more, now it’s what I do for a living. I may turn on the radio on the hour drive in to work and the hour drive home, but I don’t listen to music in my spare time as much as I used to. And I miss that sometimes, you know, I miss that. But sometimes I just need a little break, I guess. I’m not one to play music loud loud all the time, I just play it at an easy listening level and I think that makes a big difference. Not to say I don’t listen to music loud because sometimes you’ll see this crazy guy driving down the highway nodding his head to some jam that he’s crazy about so I can crank it up at times. And definitely, if I go to concerts and to a club or something, I tend to stay away from the speakers because they definitely turn them up loud there. So I’ll back off from that not to damage my ears so to speak.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

You said to me you try not to listen with a critical ear as far as aesthetics go, but there must be times when you’re sitting there working on something and you just can’t stand the song or can’t stand the artist. And it’s got to be a challenge to try to overcome that to try to make it sound as good as you can.

Tony Dawsey

Well, I think you got to be professional, you just got to be professional. I think you get a point or two for bringing a record and me mastering it. So right off the bat I like it because of that. I can’t say I listen to a lot of offensive stuff, although I have a 12-year-old daughter and sometimes dealing with some of the rap stuff more than anything you get a little tired of hearing the “bitches, hoes, ass, fuck, shit, nigger” and all that stuff all the time, that gets a little monotonous. But you know, in our country there's something called free speech so you got to deal with it. I think regardless of what I get, you just have to be professional. Years ago when I used to do heavy metal...that’s not my choice of music, I’m not going to listen to that when I’m home relaxing but you got to be professional about it, you know?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

There’s always a visual stereotype of an engineer being the white guy with the ponytail and facial hair. So is that a true stereotype from your experience or is it fiction, do you feel like you’ve broken some boundaries for the time that you were working at Masterdisk, when you came in?

Tony Dawsey

Probably not, I still get a lot of people coming in going, like “You’re black!” I’ve been on MTV, people are surprised. I don’t know why, we have a website, my picture’s on there, I’ve been on MTV talking about music before, what was it? The 22 greatest albums a panel voted in on and I was on there talking about a Nine Inch Nails record. But alot of people are surprised. And there are only two African-American engineers that I feel make an impact in the music business. That’s myself and Herb Powers. So I guess it’s not normal for a black engineer to be mastering records. Hopefully in the years to come, that’ll change.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Describe Herb Powers and what his importance is because I know if anybody here buys any dance records–12”s from the early ‘80s–this guy's name is pretty much on everything significant. If you could talk a little bit about his impact too?

Tony Dawsey

I consider him a friend. Many years ago when I was delivering packages throughout the different recording studios in New York, I ran into him in a control room, the mastering suite at Frankford Wayne and I was like, “Wow!” It kind of inspired me to go forth and do what I do now because I just felt like wow, there is a brother doing this, so it is feasible, it is possible. When I first started at Masterdisk, again, I had no aspiration to do mastering at all but I do remember seeing Herb in there and it was definitely a bit of an inspiration to go forth and to perhaps take advantage of the situation that was given to me. I have seen quite a bit of differences, still in the business where there are a lot more black mixing and recording engineers than what there used to be when I first started. Like you said, it used to be the ponytail with the grub on the face and that’s not true anymore. The beautiful thing I feel about music, and you’ve heard people say this before and it may be a cliché, but music is a universal language. I really, really feel that way. You don’t listen to music and go, oh, it’s a black thing, a white thing, an Asian thing or anything else. Music just speaks to all of us, all across the board, all parts of the country. That’s the thing I love about it so much. And it’s a little different than when I was growing up. Growing up, if you had some type of relationship with your girlfriend, there was a record that spoke to you about it, that you could relate to. And there are still records now that impact and affect people like that. Whether you’re going through something with your boyfriend/girlfriend or just something in life, and that’s why I just love music so much and I always have. It touches you, it kinda reaches down to your soul.

Audience Member

You said before that you had your first hit record with the La Bamba soundtrack, which was actually a compilation, Los Lobos. So how do you approach mastering a compilation, which is not just simply different studios, but also different artists and different sounds?

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Different genres maybe, even?

Tony Dawsey

Well even that, again, that was back in the ‘80s, and if I remember right–it was a long time ago–it all came in from one source, from one studio. Yeah, there are different artists on each track but again, I don’t have a different approach from cut to cut. I feel a large percentage...

Audience Member

You have to create a homogenous sound but at the same time respect the individuality of the single artists?

Tony Dawsey

That’s correct. But again, like I say, I think a large portion of what I do is already done in the actual recording and the actual mixing. So most of the work is already done and I’m just there–as I’ve been saying–putting the icing on the cake. I just want to try to keep it as consistent as possible but in listening to it, do what I feel needs to be done whether that’s boosting the top, the bass or whatever. It’s not easy these days, like I said, you get a project with 20 cuts done and it's done in ten different studios with different producers, but it’s what I do and I just have to try and keep it as consistent as possible across the board. And it’s not easy, it’s probably a lot more easy to say that than what it is.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Did you ever have any ambitions to do recording engineering or producing yourself?

Tony Dawsey

Sometimes I wish I got involved in mixing because I’ve hung out in different studios watching records being put together. That to me is crazy, crazy... What’s the right word I’m thinking of? It’s just crazy creative at that point, I mean here you are and you’re combining the 24 or 48 tracks onto a left and right channel and that’s just very, very creative to me. Like I said, when I get it, two thirds of it is already done, I’m just putting a little glaze of icing on it and all. But sometimes I wish I did mix some, I really do ’cause I think it’s just a lot more creative than what I do. As far as producing and all that stuff, I think I’m starting to be a little too old to want to venture into all that stuff now. And I thought about it even in the mixing sense, I would end up not being home and I have a wife and a daughter, you know I already work ten or more hours a day. I try not to work the weekends, but if I got involved in mixing, then I’m sure I would never be home. And then I would end up perhaps ruffling a few feathers on people I work with.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What about the whole concept of re-mastering, what is your experience of that? I mean sometimes you hear a re-issue of a classic album and they say: “Re-Mastered, blah, blah, blah.” Sometimes there’s a difference and sometimes it sounds negligible. What is your experience with that?

Tony Dawsey

Well, I think again, technology comes into play. I think records these days are crazy, crazy loud, much louder than they were in the ‘80s. Some of that is because of different types of equipment that are available to you and everything else. And I think that’s some of why a lot of companies re-issue and remaster stuff that was perhaps done back in the ‘60s, ‘70s or ‘80s, just to bring it up to sync with what today’s sound is more like. I don’t really like the loudness that people put on records these days, I think that a lot of times it destroys the dynamic-ness of the record. If I played a jazz record for you that I mastered, I will never make that record as loud as I do perhaps a hip-hop record. A lot of the hip-hop guys, they want their record sounding louder than the next and the next and the next on down the line. But to me you lose a bit of the dynamic-ness of your music by doing that. I do what I have to do, if that’s what the client wants, then that’s what they want. But you just lose it. If I play some jazz stuff that I’ve done recently for you, you’ll find it very open, very dynamic and very pleasing but when you squash a record to make it sound loud, I just think you mess up on stuff. It just loses that and a lot of people feel that way but you get caught up on doing what the client wants and just making them happy.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Have you heard any of the hip-hop remasters, records from ten years ago like Nas’ Illmatic that have supposedly been remastered. Have you heard any of that stuff or ever compared...?

Tony Dawsey

No, I can’t say I do. To me that’s kind of work and when I’m listening to music in my car or at home, I try my best not to be critical or judgmental about it. I just play it and I either enjoy it and like the vibe or I don’t. ’Cause that’s how I started with this, I didn’t start out listening to music going, “Ooh, it doesn’t sound good,” or “Ooh, it needs more top end,” or whatever. So when I’m home on my own, I try my best not to do that. I can’t say I bought any re-issues of stuff that’s been remastered, I can’t say that at all.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Why don’t you play something, another example, maybe one of your jazz pieces or something like that to give us another audio example of what you’re talking about?

Tony Dawsey

OK, before I do that, what I would love to play for you guys is... You’ve heard I played some Jay-Z’s Dynasty album, I played some of Kid Rock’s. Both of those records were mixed down to half-inch 30ips and again I love that format. If you ask me what I prefer to master from, that’s what it is. I want to play something for you that was using this new technology. I’m not sure of the gentleman’s name but somebody invented a one-inch machine.

(music: Kelly Price - unknown)

It’s a very sticky situation, it really is. Because I think if you going to have a certain person that you want to master your record, then you should have them cut the vinyl too. And again, explain as to what you just said to me and hopefully they can work out and give you a deal. Because sometimes what happens, I've had with people is I won’t cut the vinyl, they’ll broker it off with somebody else and then wonder why it doesn’t sound right. Just as I talked a lot about the half-inch analog tape machine and how the key to that sounding really good is to have it aligned and taken care of, the same thing is true with cutting a piece of vinyl. There’s a high frequency alignment, there’s a total alignment that needs to be done on those machines, and if it’s not done right, then there’s no telling how your stuff is going to turn out. So who they use–and you have every right to ask them–who are you using to cut the vinyl and everything else? That’s important, for sure. A lot of studios, not just Masterdisk in New York, but a lot of studios are offering breaks to people these days, you’d be surprised. So like I said, just call up a place and explain your situation and if you have a list of engineers, mastering guys that you want to do it, then you have every right spending your money to request engineer A, B, C, D. If somebody wants to work with me, I won’t pass it off on to somebody else, I’ll accommodate the client as best as I can. I don’t care who you are, from Jay-Z on down to the other guy because I didn’t start out up here, so I understand people starting there wanting to go up. And I’ll give you the same type of respect and care that I would for the big budget people, you know I think that’s fair, I really do.

Audience Member

Thank you very much. See you in New York, too!

Tony Dawsey

You’re welcome.

Audience Member

I was just wondering if you could run down some of the differences between mastering for vinyl. You don’t want the bass to be on one side and you’ve got phasing things with the bass. A lot of people don’t realize these differences, can you explain some of those things?

Tony Dawsey

Oh, yeah. There could be a lot of problems... I don’t necessarily change the EQ when I’m doing something for CD versus vinyl. What you’ll find is, let’s say you have five tracks on your album that you want to put on vinyl [and] let’s say the fifth track has a lot of top-end and high frequency stuff going on, cymbals, and all that fun stuff. With vinyl you get into a problem with inner-band distortion that doesn’t exist on a CD. On a CD you can make it crazy loud and all type of top end without it being a problem.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Inner-band distortion?

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, when it comes down to vinyl, you have to deal with problems like that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

In layman’s terms what would that be?

Tony Dawsey

It’s just that as you get towards the centre of the record, if you have something with a lot of top end, it could possibly distort on you at a very high level.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So, if you’ve got three tracks on a 12", the one closest to the label [will distort on the top end]?

Tony Dawsey

It’s very possible. Another thing that people don’t understand with vinyl is–I know a lot of you guys that are DJs–a good-sounding piece of vinyl will be in the neighborhood of ten to 12, maybe 13 minutes. When you get up to a vinl that's 17 or 18 minutes, we have to drop the level. So when they happen to play your record that’s 18 minutes versus one that’s 12 minutes, the 12 minute one will probably sound a lot better. A lot of people don’t understand that, they ask why, it’s just physics, the longer the record is, the more room it takes up on a piece of vinyl.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

That’s why when you play your old vinyl copy of Fear Of A Black Planet, it sounds really shitty.

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, chances are that was 20-some-odd minutes. I don’t care who cut your piece of vinyl, there’s no way a 20-some-odd piece of vinyl is going to sound as good as a ten or 12-minute one, it just doesn’t work out that way. So if that’s an issue for you, then try to keep your vinyl to ten or 12 minutes. If it’s 20 minutes, then understand that it’s not going to sound as good. Back in the day when CDs weren’t in play, we used to cut a lot of vinyl that was perhaps 19, 20 minutes. But we just let the people know that’s not going to sound as good as a 12" piece of vinyl. Nowadays to combat that, I’ll master an album that’s 60 minutes long and instead of cutting it up and making two pieces of vinyl, the record company makes four pieces of vinyl. So that way each piece of vinyl is 15 minutes long, which sounds a lot better than if it’s 20 or 30 minutes long.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

But then there’s a lot more expense in doing that as well, I would imagine.

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, that’s true. It does cost more to do four pieces of vinyl versus two and everything. But again, if sound quality is important to you, that’s just something you have to consider. And another thing: There's just a lot of different things that sometimes engineers that don’t cut vinyl don’t understand. You talked about phasing. Bass phasing for vinyl cutting engineers is a real problem. A lot of times what happens with the machine that cuts the grooves when you have some phasing going on with your bass the grooves go deep thin deep thin. [gesticulates with arms to indicate]. And, if it thins up too much, then there’s a very good chance that record’s going to skip. So it’s very possible to maybe create two different mixes or just to not make the phasing crazy, because on CD that stuff is not a problem, it’s not a problem at all. But when it comes to vinyl you get into cutting problems. Like I said, the groove getting thick, thin, thick, thin. And sometimes I’ll get a project where that happens and I go, “Oh no, I’ve got to cut this on vinyl!” But it’s something you got to deal with and we got little tricks that we do to get around that stuff sometimes.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What about with what PJ was saying before about someone giving you an honest assessment of what you have? You were saying how maybe you bring the master in or you bring your tape in or whatever, and you can only do so much in the mastering process, you actually have to go back and provide something else. You know, you’re in DC, a lot of these guys are in other parts of the world where they’re not going to be able to come down to Masterdisk or call you on the phone, it’s going to be a pretty expensive call. So what advice would you give them as a resource for that kind of feedback?

Tony Dawsey

Well, I always try to be professional, I’ll never come out and tell anybody that their mix is a piece of shit, I don’t think that’s fair or that's right at all. But in this day and age, people love comparing their record to another record and a lot of times the other record tends to sound a whole lot better and they want their record to sound like that. Most of the time that’s not fair. Just as I said to you before, all cars are not created equal. Yes, a Volkswagen and a Mercedes are both cars but they’re not the same. And the same thing is true with your mixes sometimes. The mastering—don't get me wrong—just as you said before, can make the difference of a record that perhaps will get played on the radio more so than one that won’t. But you’ve got to take each step of the process–the recording and the mixing and the mastering–and try and get it the best you can. Don’t be an engineer that shortcuts it and saying that, “I know my mix ain’t good but we’ll fix it in the mastering.” That drives us crazy sometimes because it just doesn’t work that way! If you want to have amongst the best-sounding records out there, then each of the three steps have to be done as well as possible. There’s no such thing as bringing in a crappy-sounding mix and when you leave mastering, somehow it turns into the best record in the world, it just doesn’t work like that.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So there’s no folklore in your profession where they say, “Oh man, it came in sounding like this and he performed a miracle.” There are no examples of things like that?

Tony Dawsey

No, it does happen, like I said, mastering can make a world of difference, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not really convinced the mastering is what makes a hit. I think, when a so-called hit is made, it’s made when the record’s being written, it’s made when the record is being tracked at the studio and then it’s made on the end of the record company when they have a whole team of people getting off their ass and promoting the record and doing what they can to make it happen and be heard by the masses.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I’m not really asking so much in terms of commercial success or recognition, so much as on a craftsmanship level within the profession. [As in] “Did you hear, it came in sounding like crap but Tony did his thing and it’s tight now.” Are there any sort of stories like that or examples?

Tony Dawsey

Off the top of my head I can’t say over the years. I’m sure that’s been the case where people’s records perhaps don’t sound great when they come in, but it sounds a world better when it leaves the mastering facility. I’m sure that happens quite a bit, there are really a lot of really good mastering engineers out here. I give a lot of props to Big Bass Brian, he’s called, out in LA, I really like the way his records sound.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

What has he worked on that we would know?

Tony Dawsey

Oh, he works on all kinds of stuff. He does all of the Dr. Dre stuff, whether it’s Eminem, Dre, all that stuff. In my CD changer now, in my car, I can’t get enough of is an album by The Black Eyed Peas. I love that record! If you ask me what record out here would you love your records to sound like it would be that one, I love that. Quite a lot of music I listen to would have his name on it. If not Herb Powers, then perhaps its Big Bass Brian. I don’t know the guy, but if I ever meet they guy, I’d definitely give him his props. I just love the way his records sound.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

His stuff is very crisp to you?

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, it’s just the way I like it, big bass, tight, nice, open-air sounding, I just think he’s a very good engineer.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

We touched on briefly the RZA or people who make intentionally grimy stuff... I know you try to be objective when you hear things, but there are genres of music and producers where that grime is what they really want. How do you deal with that? If it’s supposed to sound grimy, is there a bad way to sound grimy as opposed to a good way to sound grimy?

Tony Dawsey

Well again, I feel very strongly—in terms of mastering—that a large percentage of the work is done before it gets to me. People spend a lot of time recording a record and they spend a lot of time mixing it a certain way. So, I don’t go into a project wanting to change it, my ego kicks in and “I’m going to change this record and to sound like this.” I don’t do that, I accept the fact that you recorded and mixed this record a certain way for a reason and I’m just here to try to make it a little bit better, if at all possible. Like you said, sometimes people do stuff like that on purpose. I didn’t mean to diss Kid Rock earlier with that record, perhaps they really wanted it to sound that way. I just know it didn’t sound as good as I normally tend to like my records to sound. But if you spoke to that engineer, he probably did that on purpose.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Any questions at this point?

Audience Member

Yeah, I have about ten questions but I’ll try and keep it short to two. I was going to say did you think that [what you didn’t like about] the Kid Rock record maybe was down to the fact that it was using a lot of live instrumentation and the way they approached making that record was different to the way you’d program on an MPC or an SP-1200?

Tony Dawsey

I can’t really say, I know it was done in Detroit with an engineer, and I’ll probably be killed for this, but I know some other people that worked on his records and they say the same thing. The whole thing with being a good engineer is getting the best out of the equipment that you use. I can’t say what goes on in that engineer’s realm or his world but I can say to all of you that one of the most important aspects of being a good engineer is what you’re listening back on. If you’re listening to some speakers and they’re lying to you, then there’s no way in the world you’re going to end up with a good mix because what you’re hearing isn’t really correct, so that’s one phase of the game that I think that's very, very important. You just can’t overlook that. If you don’t have decent speakers that are being honest and truthful to you and your listening environment isn’t correct, then it’s almost impossible to get a good mix because what you’re EQ'ing and changing and all isn’t really true. And it may end up sounding good there but then when you go to your car or home, you [wonder] what happened. The speaker situation and your listening environment is very, very important no matter what you’re doing, whether it’s recording, mixing or mastering, it’s very, very important.

Audience Member

What would you say would give you the truest sound? I mean, I know you have industry standard Yamaha NS-10 speakers or Tannoy...?

Tony Dawsey

Aaarrrggghh! NS-10s, curse that! [makes the sign of the cross]

Audience Member

Well, I’m from the UK and engineers tend to mix with NS-10s in the studio or Tannoy speakers.

Tony Dawsey

Well, the truth is, NS-10s are a very popular speaker and damn near every studio has them. I can’t stand those speakers, I’m sorry. When I had them in my room, I get confused, I listen to them and I’m like: “What the hell am I listening to?” But the key is that a lot of guys just know how to get the best out of those speakers. And as I was just saying a little while ago, part of your craft and being good at it is learning how to get the best out of your equipment. Some engineers, they'll mix on the NS-10s and they understand it and therefore can come up with the good mix. A guy that doesn’t really know what he’s doing, the NS-10s don’t really put out a lot of bass, so unless you know better, you find guys turn up the bass a lot and then when it comes to a place like Masterdisk, it’s like, “Oh my God, there’s too much bass on it,” and the engineer did that because he wasn’t familiar with the speaker and he had to turn them up just to hear it. So it’s not a knock on NS-10s, but I just don’t like those speakers at all. But, again, they’re in every darn studio throughout the country, they’re very popular.

Audience Member

And my last question quickly if I can: We talked about a Pro Tools mastering software thing. Is there a problem when you’ve mixed your record ’cause I’m working with an engineer right now in the States who keeps running my mixes through a Pro Tools software mastering and he expects me to go and master it with someone like yourself who I’m planning to go speak to after the session. But is there a problem there? Mastering from Pro Tools to coming to master on an analog situation again?

Tony Dawsey

I think the mixing engineers should be mixing engineers and leave the mastering up to guys who master records on a regular basis. What happens a lot these days is what you just said, an engineer will do a bit of pre-mastering, so to speak, and you end up finding there’s no headroom. We get the tape, it’s slamming in terms of too loud and crunchy sounding from them compressing it or making it loud and we don’t end up having the headroom to be creative and do our thing. So that’s a real problem a lot these days but if it was up to me, tell the mixing guy to mix it, do the best he can and let the mastering go with the mastering guys.

Audience Member

Some people don’t know, that’s the problem, some people don’t realize it’s been run through Pro Tools mastering thing and then they bring it to someone like yourself and they have that problem.

Tony Dawsey

One of the engineers I work with on a lot of the stuff for the Ruff Ryders, he’ll do a little pre-mastering and give it to the guys just to listen to but when he comes to me, he’ll say use the sound file that’s not done through that. Let me go ahead master it and do my thing. I’m not knocking anybody who wants to go that route, but like I said, you just don’t get the same out of the Pro Tools mastering [compared] to what we do. Let me see, we have six rooms at my place, and all the engineers tend to use an analog console. And that’s just something you can’t get from that Pro Tools, being in the digital realm. If it was up to me, I’d say let the mixing guys be mixing guys and tell them, don't be mastering, not in the Pro Tools machine at least.

Audience Member

OK, thanks.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Anybody else right now? OK.

Audience Member

So what I wanted to ask you is when [you’re] doing mixes, especially mixes that are meant to be print on vinyl, what’s the safest low frequency you can use? For example, if you have a kick drum, should it be cut down at 50hz or 40hz, what’s the lowest frequency you can get out of a vinyl cut so [as] not to make it skip? Without using any phasing or just mono bass?

Tony Dawsey

Well, a low-frequency bass doesn’t necessarily cause a skip. If you listen to classical music, one of the guys that trained me did classical music all day and I can record cannon shots and all kinds of stuff that go way, way low bass so there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not going to tell you to cut it off at 5hz or 25hz or anything. Be creative and have fun, but just know that if it’s going to vinyl, you don’t want that type of low frequency bass to be in and out of phase, that’s where you end up with problems.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

So go as low as you want?

Tony Dawsey

Yeah, go as low as you want, be creative and have some fun.

Audience Member

Because often—or at least for us—when you send the CD to print on vinyl and then when you get it back, you’ll see that there has been a sharp cut on the low frequencies. So maybe, if you got some kind of popping effect or whatever, then it’s not the same when it gets back on vinyl. Have you got any advice on that? I mean, doing mixes especially for vinyl, what would you advise a mixing engineer to do if he has to mix for vinyl? Except for bass phasing there’s no other advice?

Tony Dawsey

I really don’t. Like I say, I cut a lot of vinyl and I don’t EQ it any different for vinyl than I do for a CD. I explained earlier the only time there may be a problem, as I get to the inner band on a piece of vinyl, if there’s a lot of top end, then there could be some inner-band distortion. Bass-wise, only if it’s in and out of phase. Sometimes you will run across an instrument that will cause a skip and so forth, and if that’s the case then the mastering guy may just have to cut a little bit of that at some point. I can’t speak for everybody, but I wouldn’t say limit yourself, be creative and have fun and if there’s any type of problem, then your mastering guy should let you know that.

Audience Member

OK. Just another question: When you get your mixes mastered, I know it’s better to get them on an analog board. But if you get them on a CD, which bit format is preferable? Do you prefer to get digital files like a data CD with the files printed as 24-bit resolution exported from the mixing environment, whatever it is? And how much range should be used in the dynamic range of the digital file? How much of it should be used just to not give you something that slams out to the peak level?

Tony Dawsey

Well, just don’t crunch it, don’t have your mix hitting so hard where it’s almost distorting. I talked about that earlier, when you do that, it doesn’t give us a lot of headroom to be creative because it’s already slamming and pinning on the meters. Your mastering guy can make it loud for you, plenty loud.

Audience Member

So leave one or two dB of tolerance from the maximum?

Tony Dawsey

Or you could even leave more, leave a little bit more. Like I said, the mastering guy can make it crazy loud, if that’s what you desire. The other thing is, I know in this day and age, I know a lot of digital stuff is being used, and what I’ve found in the digital world that’s very close to the feel I like out of analog is I've had some 24-bit DATs or CDs that I’ve had before, and those sound pretty darn amazing, I’m pretty impressed with that. The difference between audio CD or computer data files, me personally, I use the same converter to play it back. There are some converters I use called DCS, most of the guys at Masterdisk have them and they’re very, very good-sounding. So whether you get an audio CD or CD files, we play them back with the same converter. So it really doesn’t matter, but if you had a choice between 16-bit and 24, I’d say do it 24-bit. It may cost you a little bit more for us to rent the machine to play it back or charge you a little extra but it’s worth it sound-wise. That’s my feeling.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Anybody else?

Audience Member

You said that it’s very important to produce music on good speakers so that the sound wouldn’t cheat you when you listen back on other speakers. So what set of speakers would you advise to use for low-budget producers?

Tony Dawsey

That’s another thing. If you get Mix magazine every month, there are hundreds and hundreds of speakers out here, all types of budgets. Personally, I have small Genelecs that are near me on the console that I like a lot. I can’t tell you the model exactly but I’ve had them for about five years, but they come with the subwoofer and their own amplifiers, those things are incredible.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Are they on a website?

Tony Dawsey

I’m sure they are. It’s the smaller ones. I also use some KRK monitors, the first generation seven series. I probably sold a couple hundred of those just myself. Unfortunately, when you have a good product out on the market, these different manufacturers tend to want to make them better and KRK I know has gone crazy over the years. They've have Formica on the side of them... They made K-Rok, a triangle, all of those, crazy stuff. I like the first generation ones, they’re called the 700 series, I think they’re phenomenal speakers. But the best way for you to judge your monitors is for you to play back material that you’re familiar with. Before you get into mixing and all, perhaps some old records or a CD that you’re very familiar with and you always liked the way it sounded. Play that back over the speakers and that’s the best way of testing and telling if they’re decent or not. The stuff you're familiar with. Doing a mix on something you’re not familiar with is not going to tell you what you need to know. We all have favorite records that we’ve loved over the years and I just say check your speakers out with those. I had a big system in my room that I’ve used for years. They were a Hartley sub woofer, an Altec in the middle and some customized tweeters up top. The system was very, very old and I wanted something new but I was very afraid to change them simply because this is how I make my living and this is what I’m known for, that type of speaker and the sound that I get out of that. Well, finally, this guy called Francis Manzelle came along with some speakers called the Griffin Monitors where it had an old-school ribbon tweeter and a big subwoofer and it was just an incredible-sounding speaker. The unfortunate part of that is they cost as much as a little car. But what he did was set them up in my room on a Friday and for three days in a row, I came in with a whole big bag of CDs and stuff that I was familiar with, records that I knew and liked–some I mastered and some I didn’t–and I played music back for three days. Just played it back and gave him some input as to what I liked and what I didn’t like and I ended up buying the speakers and I got rid of the old ones. Now, like I said, that was a big thing for me because I was used to that other system, I had used that system for probably 15 years or so. I was very, very familiar with it, very comfortable with it. But again I did want a new speaker system, and that’s what I did to make sure what I was buying suited me well. Just played back nearly 100 CDs, and no, I didn’t listen to every one of them but I would skip to certain cuts and I would listen to them and make sure that this is what I wanted and what I liked. Because, like I said, if your speakers are lying to you, there’s no way you can expect your mix to be done right, there’s no way. So that’s important, what you use to monitor, for sure.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Just keep in mind Tony’s going to go into the studio after the break and work on some of the stuff that you guys have done so you will have more opportunity to ask him questions.

Audience Member

You told us your normal day is about ten hours, 12 hours. So again I want to know is how can you hear that your ears are tired? What tells you that?

Tony Dawsey

I just know at four o’clock in the morning I’ve had enough. And I don’t want to be doing what I’m doing at that point, if it comes down to EQ'ing a record. Like I said, I really like to start my day, personally, 11 o’clock, 12 o’clock, I’ll start an album session or whatever. Now I could spend ten hours EQ'ing a record and that’s not a problem, eight to ten hours, sometimes a little bit more with a good day's rest and all of that. The last few hours of that day is sequencing the record and then making the copies. So even if I do tend to go to three or four o’ clock session in the morning, the last few of those hours are sequencing, it’s not equalization anymore. I mean, everybody’s different, you got to learn what your limits are, but definitely, if you get into a situation where you’re mixing until the wee hours of the morning, simply check your mix the next day and if you don’t find it’s perhaps too darn bright where your ears are like “woah,” then you’re probably okay.

Audience Member

So how important to you is a certain amount of sleep? It is important for me.

Tony Dawsey

I’m getting older now, I used to be able to be alright after five hours sleep, that was fine, I functioned okay. But I am getting older now and I find that I do need to sleep a little bit more. But we don’t live in a perfect world, so sometimes you have to do what you have to do and all, but there’s no way you function right off an hour or two of sleep. We’re human beings, that's what you gotta remember, we’re not machines.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

I think everybody in this room understands that. Now just one last thing: Did you ever enforce any kind of rule to make sure you didn’t have to go beyond four in the morning?

Tony Dawsey

Ha, ha, ha! Yes, I did.

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

How did that turn out?

Tony Dawsey

There was a time where one year–I think it was 1998–I was working just too much and I knew because I was very, very cranky. It’s not like me to be cranky and to be snapping at people and everything else. I remember I was working on a record that was mixed by Timbaland and they were two hours late for the session, I’d already equalized the record, I was making the copies and they called up with the request of me to do something and I kind of snapped. Now, that wasn’t good because I probably lost a client. I haven’t worked with... Although I’ve done mixes for Timbaland, I haven’t worked with him since then. You know, when you start snapping and being cranky with people, you know you’re just overworked too much. In 1998 I had to tell people in the front office, look, I'm working too much. I remember at one stretch I was working until six in the morning three days in a row. I knew it probably wasn’t my best and I had to tell the front office, “Look, I need a day off. I have to get away from this because I’m starting to lose it.” After I snapped at Timbaland, I knew I was losing it and it’s not cool, it’s not cool. A lot of times in the music business, especially what I do, there’s deadlines they’re always behind. It's always "It has to be done now, has to be done now.” So there will be times when you’ve got to do what you got to do, but you know your body, you know how you function and you know when you're pushed over the edge and when to back up. It got to a point after that year, I was working late so much and unfortunately two, four hours, people would show up late, where I decided to impose a rule where, if I worked past midnight, my fee went up to $600/hour. Now yes, that’s a ridiculous amount of money, but I didn’t do it to make money, I did it to encourage people not to have me there that late. You know, to show up on time and get the job done. And some people don’t give a shit, you know? Nothing you can do about that; you just charge them at the rate and keep on going. So that’s what I did to try and combat it and in some cases it worked. People were like, “Oh no, we’re not going to be here after midnight,” and I was like: “Good, very good!”

Jeff “Chairman” Mao

Alright, Tony Dawsey.

[applause]