Yuzo Koshiro

Nick Dwyer

Our guest who we’ll be speaking with next for a while is a very legendary figure indeed. He was born in Tokyo towards the end of the ‘60s, grew up in the ‘70s and by 1986, he was completely and utterly in love with Japanese video game music, which was a very new thing at the time, and decided that he wanted to become a video game composer.

He went on to compose music for some of the most legendary titles in the history of video game music. He still composes music today. And it just so happens that some of these soundtracks that he has composed music for, 25, 30 [years] on, he is now finding himself performing in some of the best clubs around the world for the very first time. Ladies and gentlemen, can you please put your hands together for Yuzo Koshiro. [applause]

Koshiro-san, first and foremost, thank you. How are you?

Yuzo Koshiro

I am fine.

Nick Dwyer

You’re well. Is it a good feeling to be here in Sweden for the very first time?

Yuzo Koshiro

My first impression of Sweden in my first visit to this country is... What I felt most is that the people here are very calm. The townscape is beautiful; the sea is very close to the town. I mean, the landscape is really beautiful. More than those, however, what impressed me most was that the people here are very calm even though they are living in such a big city.

Nick Dwyer

Koshiro-san, just quickly as well, there’s an interesting connection now between you and Sweden. And I believe, yeah, you’re even working on a video game with a Swedish company. Is that correct?

Yuzo Koshiro

Yes, it is. I have not composed any music yet, but I have a plan to work with a Swedish game company in the very near future.

Nick Dwyer

I mean, it’s been happening for about a year now that you’ve been touring around the world. And you’ve now played in a number of countries, at very incredible clubs [and] festival stages. I guess you’re possibly getting a little bit more used to it, but do you still find it strange that here you are in Sweden, performing music that you made for a video game – which was never intended to be danced to or heard in a nightclub – but you’re performing it 25 years later, for the very first time?

Yuzo Koshiro

I can’t find a good answer to your question, but... Regarding the Streets of Rage [soundtrack], which will be played later today, I used to love dance music from the beginning, and it was around 1990. I wanted to adopt the dance music I used to listen to into the games. That’s how the music of the Streets of Rage was created. It was like 25 or 30 years ago, and when I participated in the tour called Diggin’ in the Carts I had never dreamed I would play the music here in Europe which I had created with the influence of foreign music like European or American dance music. So, I am so excited about that.

Nick Dwyer

Alright, I’m going to play a track now. This is something... Actually, I’ll play it and then I’ll ask you about it in a second.

(music: Yuzo Koshiro – “Blast Power!”)

That was music made for a video game called Bosconian which was released back in 1988. And you were probably, what – 21, 22 years old at the time when that track was made? When you listen to that track right now, what does it take you back to? What do you think of when you hear that track?

Yuzo Koshiro

I think I composed [for] the Bosconian back in 1988. At that time I used to love the music of Mr. Shinji Hosoe, who was working for Namco, and I was so influenced by him. The other thing I need to mention is that the game music of that time in the ‘80s is categorized as jazz fusion. For instance, there is a Japanese music band named Casiopea, which influenced a lot of Japanese game music composers. So, jazz fusion was the trend in game music at that time. And this Blast Power is one of those influenced by that kind of music.

Nick Dwyer

What’s interesting about this time in Japan? I don’t know if many people realize this, but video game music was a genre. Records were being made and young people were buying records of video game music. There was a record label called G.M.O. Records that would release music from a number of different video games companies. Can you tell us, what was G.M.O. Records and how important was G.M.O. Records for video game music in Japan at this time?

Yuzo Koshiro

G.M.O. was one of the sublabels of the Japanese record label Alfa Records and was established by Mr. Haruomi Hosono who was a member of the music band YMO [Yellow Magic Orchestra], which you probably know. The label was created to release exclusively game music and, as far as I know, it was the first music label dedicated to game music. In those days, there were no such genres of music as game music, so what people used to do was that they would go to a game center and record the game sound with a tape recorder, and enjoy listening to it at home. And then, Mr. Haruomi Hosono realized how wonderful game music was and created the G.M.O. label. Then, he released his first record named Xevious. What made me feel happy was that YMO was my favorite music band and one of the members of that group released a record for game music. I was so excited about that. It was not only me who was so excited. So were all the game music fans of that time.

Nick Dwyer

So, Koshiro-san, were you one of these young game music fans that would take your walkman down to the game center to record video game music?

Yuzo Koshiro

Are you asking if I used to go to the game center because I wanted to listen to the game music as a game music fan or something like that? I can’t hear well. That’s right. Yes, that is correct. Xevious is really wonderful in terms of game music, but there is a video game I liked so much called Circus. In that game, you needed to break as many balloons as possible jumping on a seesaw. I used to love the sounds of that game when they were merely sound effects and were not played melodically. From that time, I loved game music and it was natural for me that I would decide to compose music for games.

Nick Dwyer

One thing I would love to ask you is, let’s talk a little bit briefly about this era before video games came to Japan and revolutionized the way young people up and down the country played in general. You, as I mentioned earlier on, you were born at the end of the ’60s and came up in the 1970s. What can you remember of your childhood? What would you do for fun before the arrival of video games?

Yuzo Koshiro

Before video games arrived in Japan, as you know, the first video games which became very popular in Japan, I can say, were Famicom. However, there were other video games which had been released by other toy companies before Famicom like Sega and Epoch. There were many different kinds of video games and I loved them all so much. But if you ask me what I used to do at that time, I don’t remember well because I was too small. I guess I used to do what any boys like to do, like play baseball, soccer, tag. I guess I used to do ordinary things.

Nick Dwyer

Around about the late ’70s a certain video game arrived and completely changed the culture in Japan which was of course, Space Invaders. Can you remember the feeling seeing Space Invaders the first time, and just how much of an impact did Space Invaders have?

Yuzo Koshiro

I can’t find the right words to explain what an impact Space Invaders made on me, but it was something like I had never seen before. Before the game appeared, the balls and rackets were the only tools to play on a video game. However, you shot at the space invaders, in other words, the aliens. The way it is played or the gameability were completely new to me at the time, and I was so fascinated and devoted to it. I think it made a huge impact on me.

Nick Dwyer

I mean... Sorry, I’ll let you finish. What was interesting at the time is basically you had what were called Invader Houses and at these Invader Houses, it was just nothing but floors and floors and floors of Space Invaders games. And I think parents were very scared if their kids went to an Invader House. They didn’t have the best reputation. Did your mother let you go to play Space Invaders or no?

Yuzo Koshiro

I think my mother was not happy with the fact that I used to go to an Invader House and play there, but when I was a student, I used to get fair marks at school so, she did not complain because she thought as long as I studied and practiced the piano so hard, I could do anything I liked to do.

Nick Dwyer

I’d like to talk about your mother just for a moment if that’s okay, because she was obviously an inspirational figure for a number of reasons but definitely musically. Now, your mother was a piano teacher and she taught at a very legendary music school in Japan called the Kunitachi College of Music. Yeah, tell us about your mother. I believe that she also had some quite notable pupils.

Yuzo Koshiro

My mother had a lot of pupils and gave lessons to them. They are not so famous, but they turned out to be really good pianists. One of them is the wife of Mr. Joe Hisaishi. She was one of my mother’s students. That connection led me to eventually have lessons from Mr. Hisaishi. I owe it to my mother.

Nick Dwyer

So, basically, Joe Hisaishi’s wife was a pupil of your mother’s and in turn you became a pupil of Joe Hisaishi. So, he taught you. How old were you when you were taking lessons from Hisaishi Jō?

Yuzo Koshiro

I was seven years old when I was taking the lessons from Mr. Hisaishi. I was so small that he was not teaching me something very difficult, but there was one very notable thing that he used to ask me to improvise. More specifically, he played some melodies on the piano and suddenly asked me to continue playing melodies after him. He told me I could play as I wanted, but needed to think and compose melodies of my own. I had that kind of lesson several times, and I think I enjoyed it very much.

Nick Dwyer

So when you were seven years old, this was the middle of the ’70s and before Joe Hisaishi became so famous, especially through the Miyazaki films, the Studio Ghibli films. How did you feel in the early ’80s when you started watching films like Nausicaä and a lot of the Ghibli films? You know, your teacher was responsible for that. How did that feel?

Yuzo Koshiro

At that time, Nausicaä and Mr. Hayao Miyazaki were not so famous as they are now, so, I did not know he was engaged in a big project like that. Then, after 2000, he had become so famous that now I hesitate to talk to him as frankly as before. I could never imagine that he would become such an important artist.

Nick Dwyer

One thing I would love to know is, can you just paint a picture for us of being a young boy growing up in Tokyo in the late ’70s and early ’80s. What’s very interesting is that all of a sudden all of this technology was permeating all of these different forms of culture. You spoke before about the arrival of video games, and these video games were being made by Japanese companies. But also in music, synthesizers and all of these Japanese companies, be it Roland or Korg or Yamaha doing, you know, many things with synthesizers as well. I mean, did it feel almost at that age, [in the] late ’70s early ’80s in Japan, that the future was arriving?

Yuzo Koshiro

Roland and Korg were... No. I would explain it in a different way. My mother used to teach me classical music. I also learned playing the violin from a different teacher from when I was five. I used to learn only classical music when I was small. So, it was such a big shock when I first heard Y.M.O.'s music. I fell in love with it. They used to play the synthesizers and most of that musical instruments, like 50% of them were made in Japan by companies like Yamaha, Korg and Roland. They used to use the instruments made by those Japanese companies. The music YMO [made], the sounds they played which were so futuristic, so, I thought the musical instrument called synthesizer was something that created the sounds of the future. Thanks to YMO, I discovered that instrument, so, in that sense, I agree.

Nick Dwyer

So what you were talking about before was this idea that all of these video game music fans would take their Walkmans to the game center and record music. And I want to play everyone something. This came out in 1984 and it is the soundtrack to a game called The Tower of Druaga.

(music: Junko Ozawa – “The Tower of Druaga”)

Alright, so that soundtrack there, why is that important for you, Yuzo?

Yuzo Koshiro

The title of this music is “The Tower of Druaga” and it is the BGM [background music] for that game. What makes it different from other music is that, it’s difficult to explain, but before the arrival of this music, most of the game music had been created based on rock, jazz or pop. But as you can hear, this music is very symphonic. There was no game music in which symphonic melodies were used. When I listened to this for the first time, it was really eye-opening and I said, “I have never heard this kind of music before. This is amazing.” I was so impressed and copied this music in my computer for the first time. I could play almost the same melodies in my computer. As you know, I was so devoted to it.

Nick Dwyer

When you’re talking about your PC, that became quite an important part of your life. What was the PC that you had and when did you start to program yourself?

Yuzo Koshiro

There is a company whose name is NEC in Japan and it used to release a series of computers and one of them was called PC-8801. It was sold in huge quantities because many video games were installable on that computer. At that time, many games for the PC-8801 were released and there were no video game consoles like Famicom. So, if you wanted to play video games, there were no other options than using that computer. It cost more than 200,000 yen and it was very expensive. But my mother bought it for me when I entered high school. At first, I used the computer just to play video games, but afterwards I learned how to do programming, and started to do it. After some time, FM sound sources were equipped on some models of the PC-8801 series which allowed the users to play music in the computer. For me, that was the reason why I started composing music. So, the PC-8801 series computers mean a lot to me.

Nick Dwyer

It must be noted as well that you were programming in BASIC back then and I believe you became quite famous in BASIC – there was a magazine right? – in Japan. Can you tell us about that?

Yuzo Koshiro

There used to be a magazine called BASIC which is now discontinued. What made the magazine really great is that it used to have PC program lists in it. I mean, if you bought it and programmed the lists on your computer, then you could play the games. In those days, it was not very common to buy video games and play, so, you needed to program to play. So, the program lists in the BASIC magazines were something very important that used to excite game fans. Some years later, I was lucky enough to get an opportunity to work for the magazine as a program writer. One day I went to the magazine publisher to let them listen to the programming of “The Tower of Gruaga” BGM, which we played a few minutes ago, and they liked it very much. That’s why I had a series in the magazine. It means a lot to me.

Nick Dwyer

Koshiro-san just quickly, what did you love about programming? I mean, it was all of a sudden a new thing. It had never been seen before. As you started to learn how to program, what did you love about it?

Yuzo Koshiro

I learned programming almost all by myself, but initially a friend of mine in junior high school was very good at it and he taught me. During my high school days, I studied programming alone and created my own programs. After graduation, I joined a programming club, a kind of group of programming fans. Its name was Harvest. In that group, there are a lot of members who were really good at programming so I learned from them as well. After some time, I started working at a company called Nihon Falcom where I got to know so many amazing programmers. I also learned how to program in a variety of ways from them.

Nick Dwyer

You mentioned before about FM synth and I just want to ask, when we’re at this point in time, just how important for music – not as video game music, but also in the music industry and pop music – was FM synth? And I guess, what was FM synth? Could you describe what FM synth is as simply as you can? For music and video game music: FM synthesis.

Yuzo Koshiro

Many people may not know what FM synthesis is for, as the term is a little bit technical, but it was developed by Yamaha. Before it appeared, analog synthesizers were the mainstream, but after digital chips for FM synthesis appeared, the musical expressions became more enriched in many ways. I mean the functions of FM synthesis are so amazing and each tiny chip has all those functions in it. That is why many game companies adopted them for their video games. This is how the game music evolved, thanks to FM synthesis. The first time I listened to music played with FM sound source was Space Harrier. And that music was so wonderful that it made me think I was going to be a game music composer. I mean, FM synthesis was such an important thing for me.

Nick Dwyer

And I’ve got that track right here. So, this is the track that you’re talking about. This is the main theme from Space Harrier. So, there you go.

(music: Hiroshi Kawaguchi – “Main Theme from Space Harrier”)

That one is from 1985, Hiro Kawaguchi, Space Harrier. Hiroshi-san. Now can I just ask, what was the feeling like. One of the things that’s interesting, the game Space Harrier was a Sega game. In the middle of the 1980s – if anyone in this room is old enough to remember – Sega really dominated the arcades in the middle of the 1980s. And if you walked into a game center, you’d see these big cabinets, be it Out Run or Space Harrier or After Burner and the music was cool. It sounded cool. What was the reputation of… you know, how did Sega games feel for you back then?

Yuzo Koshiro

The Sega sounds at that time were... If you listen to the Space Harrier, you will recognize how great the sound is, but this is music released in 1985. How many years ago? 40... 30...? 33 years ago? You are right. It is a long time ago. We listened to The Tower of Druaga a few minutes ago, but Space Harrier was released right after it. It surprised us, you know, incredibly. As this nice music suddenly came out, I fell in love with it in a second. Sega, at that time, was the pioneer company in terms of game music and video games. They launched so many arcade games and all of them were so interesting and had beautiful game music. Especially, I loved the music composed by Mr. Hiroshi Kawaguchi, who is the composer of Space Harrier. I still think he is one of Sega’s best ever composers.

Nick Dwyer

As you said before, this was the track that inspired you to become a video game composer yourself, which you soon went on to do. How did you do that? How does one become a video game composer? Did you have meetings with companies? Did you send in demos?

Yuzo Koshiro

As I said earlier, I had a series of music programming articles in the BASIC magazine. In earlier days, I used to copy the music of Sega, Konami or Nintendo games, and played them in my computer. Then, I started to feel like composing my own. I didn’t think I was going to create something big, but felt like I could make one. I wasn’t meant to sell it to somebody. But one day, a game programming magazine called Login posted an ad for music staff at Nihon Falcom. I had five or six songs I had composed at the moment, so, I decided to ask them to listen to the music I composed. The company was located close to my house, so I took a train there, and asked them to listen. Then, immediately they said they wanted to use my music for a game they were launching. I was really surprised, but said, “Yes. Please go ahead.” That is how the music for Xanadu Scenario 2 was born. That was the first time a song of mine was used for a video game which was commercially available.

Nick Dwyer

Alright, so, Yuzo, you are in your very early 20s – no, you were not even in your 20s. So, Yuzo, you’re still a teenager and you are working at a video game company making music. How did that feel? Did that feel like a pretty cool job to be doing? Did it feel like a dream come true? I don’t know. What was it like to work at a video game company in the 1980s?

Yuzo Koshiro

As I said earlier, I was not looking for a job in the game music industry, but I just happened to take my songs there, which were adopted for a game. That is how I started working in this industry. It didn’t hit me at that time. I liked game music so much, but it didn’t hit me I had become a game music composer. The first game I was engaged in at Nihon Falcom was Ys and after the game was released, I received a lot of postcards saying people liked the music, or many other comments. So, I felt very happy to do this job for the first time. Before, I had admiration for the music of Sega and Konami, but I never imagined that I would be part of the industry. So, when I got the messages about Ys, I simply felt happy and realized I had become a music composer for the first time.

Nick Dwyer

I’m going to play a track right now. We’re going to jump forward only a year or two and it must be mentioned all the music you were making for Ys, and Scenarios were for the PC-8801. So, PC-8801 titles but then a couple of years later you composed your first soundtrack for Sega’s console the Mega Drive [Sega Genesis].

(music: Yuzo Koshiro – “The Shinobi”)

So, a couple of things that are really interesting about that. When you composed that music, you were only 21 or 22 years old and you had been working for this games company called Nihon Falcom. You were young; I guess at the time you probably thought it was the dream job. But you did something that no other video game composer did in Japan at the time which was, you quit and became a freelancer. Why did you quit Nihon Falcom?

Yuzo Koshiro

It is a difficult question to answer. I was young and maybe... I don’t remember well, but I guess I wanted to get more money. I was working as a part-time worker at the company, and did not get paid so much. So, I thought maybe a freelancer would get more jobs and... Consequently, more money. That’s what I was thinking at that time, maybe.

Nick Dwyer

So what was interesting about this is, this is the first time you made music for Sega and it was the first soundtrack that you made for the Mega Drive. How did it feel composing for Sega for the very first time? You mentioned earlier that you grew up loving the music for Sega and Sega had this reputation of, the music was very cool. And it felt very progressive, like Sega was almost like the music you’d hear on the radio, you would be hearing in Sega games. With that in mind, how did you decide your approach for the music of that game? Which was of course Shinobi.

Yuzo Koshiro

The reason I composed the music for Shinobi was not that I asked Mr. Hiroshi Kawaguchi, composer of Space Harrier, or Mr. Yu Suzuki, who created the music of Shenmue, for the job directly. Actually, that was different. I had many friends who were working in publishing companies because I was working for the BASIC magazine. One of them was a very good friend of the producer of Shinobi at Sega, and he invited me to meet him. The producer told me they were creating a game called Shinobi and wanted me to compose music for the game. That was how I started working on that game. As you said Nick, music of the Sega games was so cool. I liked it so much as I said before. So, it was like a dream come true for me to be part of the team. So, I said, “Yes, I’ll absolutely take that job.” Mega Drive had almost the same FM synthesis chips as the PC-8801, which I had been using. That’s why I didn’t have any difficulty in programming my compositions. So, not only Sega was the company I adored, but also the sound chips made the programming very easy, those are the biggest reasons I was engaged in the music for Shinobi.

Nick Dwyer

And your tastes during this time were changing a lot, right? In particular, if you listen to all of the music that you were making for these games for Nihon Falcom and then all of a sudden you go to the music from Shinobi, I mean it’s funky as hell. What changed? What happened in your life? Where did these new influences come from?

Yuzo Koshiro

As I mentioned a little earlier, that jazz fusion, rock or pop were the mainstream for game music in Japan. I really loved them, but gradually I started wanting to compose original songs. I thought if I added Japanese sensibility to the music of Shinobi, it would be very original as the game was set in Japan. That was my challenge and I completely changed the type of music used. That was the first step. At that time, when it came to game music, it was rock, pop and fusion. I wanted to change that trend.

Nick Dwyer

And then around this time you travelled to the USA for the very first time. Tell us about that trip and how much of a... Did that trip really start to open you up to a world of new influences?

Yuzo Koshiro

I traveled to Los Angeles, and why I went there was that I simply wanted to go to the United States. I went there not because I wanted to learn English, but I just went there because I just felt like going. I didn’t join any sightseeing tours, so, I got on the plane as other tourists did. I had to start my trip with looking for a hotel. So, I made a phone call and booked a room, like a backpacker. I was doing such things. Then, while watching an MTV program on TV in my hotel, I happened to watch the music videos and realized they were quite different from the music in Japan. I mean, they were so cool. That was the first thing that influenced me so much. Then, I started to think how I could merge this music into my songs, how I could change the trend. My trip to Los Angeles was the opportunity to shift my direction.

Nick Dwyer

And I guess some of the results of these new experiments was this here. This was something taken from a soundtrack which I am pretty sure everyone in the room knows. This is something from the very first soundtrack to a game in Japan which is called Bare Knuckle which of course outside of Japan we know as Streets of Rage.

(music: Yuzo Koshiro – “Bare Knuckle”)

When you just take a moment, I know that you’ve been listening to that track again a lot in recent times but just when you listen to it in this sort of setting and you cast your mind back to the time that you created it. What do you think of when you hear that track? What does it remind you of?

Yuzo Koshiro

As I was influenced by the music I heard in Los Angeles, I tried to listen to music like house or techno as much as I could when I was there. Then, I tried to compose a song with the sensibility of those kinds of music, and I composed Streets of Rage. I feel a little bit of shame, but I was so influenced by house or techno music which were in fashion at that time, maybe some of you have noticed, when you listen to the beats, but the band Enigma was the music trend of that time. Their music adopted those rhythms and it sounded very effective. The rhythm is called “ground beat,” and it was so new to me. That’s why I thought, “I’m gonna use it for my song.” And that’s how I composed Streets of Rage. There are a lot of other songs which include the sensibilities of techno or house in the tracks of Streets of Rage.

Nick Dwyer

What do you think it is about that music that has continued to live on? You know, especially in the last year. I’ve seen nightclubs that are full of people chanting the main riff to that and it has a massive impact on people. Why? What do you think it is about that music?

Yuzo Koshiro

Well, I felt very happy about that. For instance, in Japan, when a song from Streets of Rage is played, they don’t dance or sing like this as they are very shy. However, people in Europe or the US dance and sing so much and it makes me feel so, so happy. So, please sing my songs tonight if you would like to.

Nick Dwyer

Could you ever have imagined when you were sitting in that studio making that track 26 years ago, could you ever have imagined... What, no, it’s 28 years ago… that this music will be played, you know, in years to come?

Yuzo Koshiro

No, I had never imagined this was gonna happen. Never.

Nick Dwyer

When you made that music for a game, to put things into perspective, at the time, you know, scrolling beat ’em ups were very popular. There were a lot of waves within the history of video games. There’ll be a maze game and then everyone does a maze game and then there’ll be a shooting game and everybody does a shooting game. And all of a sudden there was an era just before the two-player beat ’em up. There was a scrolling beat ’em up and you had games like Final Fight and of course Double Dragon and they had these kind of Rocky soundtracks. But then the bosses at Sega say to you, “Yuzo, we got a new side-scrolling beat ’em up that’s going to rival Final Fight. We need something to beat Final Fight. It’s called Streets of Rage. We want you to do the music.” And you say, “I’m going to put club music into this game. I’m going to give this fighting game house and techno,” which had never been done before. How did the bosses at Sega respond to you wanting to put house and techno into the game?

Yuzo Koshiro

I don’t remember about it well, but house or techno music had never been used for game music before, but people at Sega were very flexible and nobody complained or opposed after listening to the songs I composed for them. On the contrary, they showed a positive attitude. They liked it. I guess they thought it very new.

Nick Dwyer

What were you imagining though, when you were sitting in your studio making this music? What were you thinking about? Were you thinking about the player and what you were wanting the player to feel as they experience playing this game, listening to the music that you were making? How did you want the player to feel? Sorry, were you imagining an audience in Japan or were you imagining the audience in America? What were you thinking about when you were making that music?

Yuzo Koshiro

Now I understood. Thank you. First of all, I need to explain this. The Sega Mega Drive or Master System were not a big hit in Japan. They were very popular in the US and Europe. The situation is the same with Shinobi and Streets of Rage. I mean, the Sega games sold more in foreign countries than in Japan. So, when I composed it, I expected that the game music fans in US or Europe would like it more than the Japanese game music listeners or fans.

Nick Dwyer

It must be noted as well that at this point in time you had started your own video games company. A company called Ancient. What was Ancient? And what did you want Ancient to be? What kind of company did you want Ancient to be?

Yuzo Koshiro

This is also a difficult story to explain, but my company, which is named Ancient, is considered as a music company by many people as I am a music composer. However, this is not true. I set it up for creating games. Now, why I set up this company? It’s because I was asked to create a Master System version for Sonic the Hedgehog at the time. One of my acquaintances asked me to work with my friends who are very talented programmers to create a Master System version for Sonic the Hedgehog. He needed to sign a contract with a company not an individual, so, he asked me to establish a company. That’s what Sega asked me. So, I set up my company to work on Sonic the Hedgehog. That’s the reason.

Nick Dwyer

And I think not many people in the audience might realize this but Bare Knuckle/Streets of Rage 1 was a huge success and whether you had the feedback or not, the soundtrack was incredibly well received. But obviously Sega asked you back to compose music for the second game. But, yeah, what people might not realize is that your company, Ancient, actually made the game. Tell us about this. So Ancient made Streets of Rage 2. How does that work?

Yuzo Koshiro

The Master System and Game Gear versions of Sonic the Hedgehog were a big hit and sold so much. So, Sega knew that Ancient had the capacity to create games, so they asked my company to create both the game and music for Streets of Rage 2. For Streets of Rage, I composed the music only. I love the beat ’em up type of games like Streets of Rage, so, I said I would love to work on them.

Nick Dwyer

And it must be noted that one of your employees was a gentleman that’s sitting in the audience right now, that goes by the name of Motohiro Kawashima. Kawashima-san! Konnichiwa. Welcome! And at a certain point, Kawashima-san was working at the company and you decided to ask Kawashima-san to contribute some music for Streets of Rage 2. Now you were both really diving into house and techno at the time in Tokyo. Can you tell us about what you would do outside of the office? So, on the weekends where would you go? What clubs would you go to and how exciting were the clubs? First of all Kawashima-san, konnichiwa.

Motohiro Kawashima

Hello. If you ask me what we were doing in our time off, I can roughly say that we used to go to nightclubs. I was an employee for the company, employee for Ancient, but I used to go out every night with Koshiro, like friends. When I listened to the music of Streets of Rage, the sounds were those of house music. The heavy bass was so good, but I thought there would be other genres where bass would be more effective. So, I invited him to go to many nightclubs to listen to drum & bass and Detroit techno. Then, he found it very interesting and responded so positively. That’s how we decided to use club music for the upcoming projects.

Nick Dwyer

Yuzo-san, can you describe the feeling of being that age and being in the nightclubs in Tokyo at the time, because club culture was new, wasn’t it? It was a new thing and you had these amazing clubs. Did it feel exciting to be going to these nightclubs and hearing this new music?

Yuzo Koshiro

I used to love listening to the new music and dance at nightclubs. I went to so many nightclubs, and there we listened and danced to the music, and you know, there were many girls there. We didn’t have good results with that. I feel shy to say this, but we used to do that at the time.

Nick Dwyer

And so you dance all night, you’d hear this incredible new music, like these incredible DJs that would come to Tokyo. Especially there were nightclubs like Yellow in Nishi-Azabu and a lot of the DJs from Detroit would come over, from Chicago. And would you guys, literally, after you left the club, go back home to the studio and try and recreate the music you were hearing in the clubs?

Motohiro Kawashima

Well, we were so excited when we were going to the nightclubs. Right after we had a shower of music, we started to compose music. That’s the thing we enjoyed doing. We were always trying to find new genres of music we could introduce to games. We found that really exciting. For instance, when we heard drum & bass, we tried to integrate the sound in game music. But the problem was that there were limitations to composing game music, like the necessity to use sampling or time limitations. So, we discussed and tried to create sounds like drum & bass within the limitations of game music composition. We tried so many kinds of music. For instance, we tried to implement the music of Underground Resistance, or other genres and bands, like Primal Scream or abstract or alternative music.

Nick Dwyer

I’m going to play a track right now from Streets of Rage 2. By the way if anyone has a question, we will be opening it up for all of your questions very soon as well. This is a track called “Go Straight.”

(music: Yuzo Koshiro – “Go Straight”)

I guess it’s worth asking this question at this point in time because if anyone else is familiar with all of the other music that was being released for the games for the Mega Drive at that time, nothing sounds like that. And I guess I need to ask you. How on earth did you make your music for the video game sound like that?

Yuzo Koshiro

When it comes to the songs of Streets of Rage, I always wanted to compose based on the new dance music. When I composed Streets of Rage 2, I was more influenced by dance music than when I composed the first game. So, I was trying so hard to reproduce these sounds in the game music. Streets of Rage 2 has many songs I like most from the Streets of Rage series. Actually, when I listen to them now, I find them very nice.

Nick Dwyer

I think it’s worth asking at this point: What exactly is a sound driver? Because that’s the one thing that a lot of people might not realize, is that a lot of composers had certain advantages over each other because they’d create their own unique sound drivers and you not only, from a very early age, were creating your own sound drivers but also your own programming languages. Am I correct? Explain to us a bit about the tools that you created yourself to make your music sound like that.

Yuzo Koshiro

As Nick explained now, I not only composed music, but also did programming after I studied it. In those days, there were almost no music composers who knew computer programming. So, what I was trying to do first was to create sounds through programming that nobody had created before. That was my motivation for music. I mean, I was not trying to create the sounds I wanted, but I was trying to program on the computer to create sounds. It was really important for me to create music drivers or sound drivers in my challenge to compose music.

Nick Dwyer

You even made your own programming language. I believe it was called Music Love.

Yuzo Koshiro

That’s right. I developed and used to sell a programming language called Music Love, and I was composing music using that driver. It made me program so freely with no limitations so, I could create many songs that had never been heard before.

Nick Dwyer

I’m just going to play something right now, we will go to questions very soon. But I think what’s very interesting about this period, I think when we’re talking about this point in time, a lot of people are familiar with your work for Streets of Rage, for Bare Knuckle and they understand that there’s a point in time where you were going to nightclubs and you were listening to all of these new influences from the nightclubs in house and techno. But at the very same time that you’re making that soundtrack, you’re also making this, which was released on the Super Famicom about 1990. And it’s a game called ActRaiser. This is a track called “Fillmore.”

(music: Track from ActRaiser BGM)

Just for disclosure, I played the wrong track there. I was going to play something else but that was another track off ActRaiser. But the thing about it that’s interesting is that that soundtrack is… It’s you kind of trying to create orchestral music with the Super Famicom. So, at the same time as you’re making Streets of Rage, you’re also trying to make orchestral music with the Super Famicom sound too. You had very diverse tastes at that point in time, didn’t you?

Yuzo Koshiro

Yes, that is correct. I love to compose music without regard for genres. Moreover, the reason I wrote music for ActRaiser in that way was the PCM [pulse-code modulation] that was available for the Super Famicom. It enabled you to do sampling. So, it was possible to reproduce real sounds which could not be reproduced from an FM sound source, like, strings. In that sense, it was a dream come true and something so natural that I composed orchestra sounds for the Super Famicom.

Nick Dwyer

Is it true that Nobuo Uematsu, who of course everyone will know as the composer for Final Fantasy, he had composed the music for Final Fantasy 3 or 4 – I believe it was for 4 – and then he heard ActRaiser and his mind was blown. And he was like, “Wow, I can’t believe you can do this with the Super Famicom.” And then he completely changed his soundtrack because of that. Is that a true story?

Yuzo Koshiro

Yes, it’s true. As Nick said, Mr. Uematsu heard the soundtrack for ActRaiser, he was so surprised. He was composing the soundtrack for Final Fantasy 4 at that time, and he decided to rework it. Not everything, but he changed the tones of the PCM sound completely. That’s what I was told. Here is an interesting story. He grew a beach at the time because after he was so surprised by the sound of ActRaiser he decided not to shave it until he could create sounds like those in ActRaiser. That’s why he grew a long beard. He liked how he looked with his beard. Since then, his beard became his style.

Nick Dwyer

I’m going to play this track, the correct track quickly right now. Something from ActRaiser.

(music: Yuzo Koshiro – “Fillmore”)

I mean, one of the things that must be noted is that obviously, today we’ve been focusing on just very, very small sections of your career and obviously you continue to make music today for video game soundtracks. But going back to this period in time where every few years a new piece of technology was coming out, and you would create music in a different way and create different kinds of music. You were working within limitations but you would figure out ways to push those limitations to the limits. When you think about that era, what did you enjoy the most about that, making video game music during this era?

Yuzo Koshiro

The question is about how I was composing within the limitations, right? I am different from other music composers in the sense that I composed music for the first time using my computer, the PC-8801. I think that could handle only six notes. And it was nothing unusual for me. So, I had never taken it as a limitation. Take ActRaiser for instance. This song has eight PCMs. Compared with the PC-8801, for me, its limitation is almost nothing. I have almost never felt the limitations. So, a common music composer would think of it as a limitation, but I always enjoyed composing music without having limitations at all.

Nick Dwyer

One thing I would love to ask is, you have a very, very broad range of music that you have created for video games, be it classical, be it house and techno, be it reggae, calypso even, over the years. Have you ever thought about making music as an artist and releasing music the way musicians do? Music not for a video game.

Yuzo Koshiro

I’ve never thought of releasing music other than game music as an artist. I love composing game music, and have never thought about making a band, inviting a singer, and playing music with them. Never. I like to listen to that kind of music, but putting together a band like that is completely out of my thoughts.

Nick Dwyer

I’ll tell you what, before we round things off, I think it’s a good time now to throw it over to any questions anybody has. Does anyone have any questions for Mr. Koshiro?

Audience Member

Yeah, I don’t know if you’re allowed to talk about the Streets of Rage 4 if you’re involved in it somehow. I hope. I hope that you are. But just speaking hypothetically, if you were to make the music for that game, would you like try to recreate that same type of sound from the previous games, or would you do something completely new and different? And if you saw the trailer for the game, what are your thoughts on the game? How do you think it looks?

Yuzo Koshiro

If I were to be involved in Streets of Rage 4, I would create a sound like... Well, when I created the sounds of Streets of Rage, I was trying to implement the newest dance music of the time. If a new Streets of Rage is released, and I am involved in it, I would think the same. I mean, I am always trying new sounds, so I would not create sounds like those of the ’90s when it was first released.

Nick Dwyer

Is there another question?

Audience Member

Hi! What’s your five most favorite composed songs that you made; like, if there are five that you hold dear and you’re very proud of making.

Yuzo Koshiro

Music track or composer?

Audience Member

Yeah, something you made.

Yuzo Koshiro

My songs? The five songs I like the most.

Nick Dwyer

Five favorite children.

Yuzo Koshiro

Currently, I am composing songs for a series called Etrian Odyssey. I love all the music composed for that series, but if I need to pick five, the best three songs will be from that series. I can’t easily name specifically which ones, but let me say I like Etrian Odyssey 5 best, then Etrian Odyssey 4 is next, and then Etrian Odyssey 3. They are the best three. It’s hard for me to rank them. I have composed so many other game soundtracks, and there is a game called Wangan Midnight, and I like its sound very much. I like the songs of the Wangan Midnight series as much as these best three songs. Wangan Midnight 6 is the newest one of that series, and two of them would be my favorite as well.

Nick Dwyer

Is there another question?

Audience Member

Hi. You were talking about when you started your music, you programmed a bit by yourself and nowadays I guess you maybe use different programs with interfaces and such. How has the technology in how to make music affected the way you produce music? Or your mindset maybe? You started programming but now today maybe you use a music program instead of doing it manually, everything, you know?

Yuzo Koshiro

Oh, I see. OK. Let’s see. What kind of changes it has made... Well, how can I explain this... It’s not a difficult question to answer, but... I don’t know, but I am thinking how to explain... As I said before, I was doing my programming using my computer the PC-8801 for about ten years. Then, I changed to a Macintosh, by Apple, and used that for five or six years to compose music. After that, from 2000 or 1999, I have been using a Windows computer. Since then, I have been using Cubase. Did I answer your question? Is my answer fine?

Nick Dwyer

And by the way, if anyone is too shy to ask now, you can have an opportunity to speak with Yuzo and Motohiro as well after the lecture is finished. I think we are running out of time. And I think what was just asked before is a good thing to kind of bring it back to what we’ve been discussing a lot over the course of the last couple of hours. This music that you especially created during these eras that we came through, was from very, very... In the beginning it was very rudimentary tools to create this sound and then as we were saying each new console would present a new sound chip. And a new sound chip had certain new challenges but I’m sure there was an excitement in understanding how the chip worked and thinking, “How can I make the best music possible with this new piece of technology?” Obviously when Redbook Audio [CD-ROMs with background music recorded and played back as audio, instead of being generated by the hardware] came out these limitations started to disappear and now you make video game music in the same way regular musicians would make music. But with that in mind are there still challenges? [Is it still the case that] every day you find new ways to be excited and to challenge yourself for video game music?

Yuzo Koshiro

Yes. I did and am still studying so hard to compose music in order to create new sounds and entertain people. I have never changed the way I work. I don’t care about whether or not there are limitations.

Nick Dwyer

Yuzo, what do you love about making video game music? It’s been 32 years now that you wake up every day almost and you make music for a video game. What do you love about making music for video games?

Yuzo Koshiro

Well, I like game music and I like playing games even more. So, when I work, I always think of game players, how I can make them more excited. So, what I think about most when I compose game music is that, and it is different from other types of music. I try to create the music that perfectly fits to the game played.

Nick Dwyer

Ladies and gentlemen, if you could please put your hands together for Yuzo Koshiro. [applause]