Christian Rich
Taiwo and Kehinde Hassan, AKA Christian Rich, have created some of the most progressive rap productions of the ’10s. Moreover, the Chicago-born twins haven’t become an assembly-line for similar sounding beats. For a sampling of their dynamic range, listen to their work on two of Vince Staples’ biggest songs, “Senorita” and “Big Fish.” The former is a lugubrious dirge of cavernous low-end and plinking keys, while the latter is a quasi-club track characterized by a rubbery bassline and glinting melodic flourishes. After producing tracks for artists like Foxy Brown and Lil Kim in the early ’00s, Rich racked up enviable credits with marquee rappers like Earl Sweatshirt (“Chum”), Drake (“Pound Cake”), and J. Cole (“Sparks Will Fly”). Since moving to Berlin two years ago, Rich have continued that upward trajectory, producing songs for Jaden Smith (“GHOST”) and collaborating with Little Dragon and fellow Chicagoan Vic Mensa for “Dripping Summers,” which will appear on a forthcoming Christian Rich project.
In their lecture at RBMA Berlin 2018, Christian Rich discussed the stories behind their biggest hits, their approach to production and the importance of creating a feeling with your music.
Hosted by Torsten Schmidt Good morning everyone. We do have the great pleasure to welcome on this very couch two literal brothers. Please join me in welcoming Taiwo and Kehinde Hassan. Taiwo & Kehinde Hassan Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you, Torsten. Torsten Schmidt I grew up with twins. I’m godfather to twins. I have to ask the ultimate twin question. Who’s the older one? Kehinde Hassan He is, Taiwo. Taiwo Hassan Yes. There’s two answers to that. In regular life, I’m older because I came out five minutes before him. In Nigeria, he’s older because me coming out first means he told me to go look at the world and I said it was okay, because I started crying. That means I like it, and then he came out. Kehinde Hassan So, depends who you ask. Torsten Schmidt Which, I guess gets us right into one of my main topics here is home and origin mean very, very different things. We had a few people from Berlin already right now. You guys are living in Berlin here as well. Kehinde Hassan Yes. Almost two years now. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, two years. Almost. Torsten Schmidt And I guess it’s fair to say that you’re part of a new Berlin that’s not just gray and white and gray. Taiwo Hassan In the literal sense and other senses, yes. Berlin, for us, it was just a move to be somewhere that was just a little bit outside of the noise of Los Angeles and New York, where we still do most of our business, but Berlin is just quiet for us. Although it’s not quiet, it’s quiet for us. Torsten Schmidt Yeah, come on. Compared to LA where you have to be in bed at two latest so you don’t miss yoga class. Yeah, right. Taiwo Hassan But LA’s noisy in the sense of the business and what you have to take care of. Like, you have to really be super aware of what you’re doing all the time. If you care to be in that world, do you have an Audi or do you have a Lamborghini? These are really things that you have to think of as artists. People... Torsten Schmidt A Lambo is not a Lambo, there’s levels. Right? Taiwo Hassan [laughs] Right. It’s got to be a Murciélago, Gallardo, depends, what you have. Here, you can indulge in that world as well, but you can also just walk down the street. You can go to Berghain and chill, whatever you want. Which we like to indulge in, at times. Kehinde Hassan Right, very true. Torsten Schmidt You were born in Chicago, right? Taiwo Hassan Yep. Kehinde Hassan But we were raised in Nigeria. We moved to Lagos when we were four years old. I say Lagos is where we actually found the inspiration for music, really. But, Chicago, yeah. Torsten Schmidt I mean, there’s a fabric of music in both places. Kehinde Hassan Of course. Different rhythm, but same creativity, inspiration. Torsten Schmidt Speaking of Nigerian rhythms, because I guess to most Westerners, Nigeria’s all about Fela [Kuti], I guess. But, there’s a lot of other rhythms that are pretty big. Let’s have a little example here, and you can tell us what’s going on. (music: unknown) Kehinde Hassan When you hire a DJ for your Nigerian party, that’s what you play. You have to play that. You can play all the Drakes later, but you gotta play at least 30 records like that. Then, you know it’s a real Nigerian party, you get sprayed with money, but we grew up knowing that as Fuji a bit, but they speak Yoruba, but it’s a bit more... Taiwo Hassan To me, it’s like a Arabic dialect, Yoruba. Torsten Schmidt How important do you feel, because you’re producing a lot of vocalists – and we’ll get to that in a minute – how important do you feel, that folks do actually understand what someone is saying? Taiwo Hassan They don’t. Kehinde Hassan How important is it? OK. So, we had a conversation. He put me on to something a few days ago. Words are important, but feeling is way more important. He discovered with one of his friends that technically humans are not supposed to talk, really supposed to move our feelings. This is why you’d know how someone’s feeling. Even if they say something, you can see the feeling. So, words are important, but the reason we can all feel music, and connect, is because that’s how humans really talk. Words are important, but being human, we can always see through the noise, which is the wrong words, or the wrong message. You’ll still see the feeling of that person. That’s why you can like 2Pac, where he’s saying aggressive things, here he’s saying aggressive things, and all the rappers that are talking about killing people, whatever. You can see the pain. You can feel it. So, the words are important, but it’s the rhythm, and the feeling, and the melody that’s probably more important than anything. Taiwo Hassan When we write, we go with melody first. I read somewhere, a few years ago, Kurt Cobain did the same thing. He didn’t care about the words, he just liked the melodies first. And, if you listen to a lot of the songs he wrote, they penetrate more than just, at the time, grunge. He just kind of wrote in a very human, soulful way. It’s the same tempo as R&B or gospel, so, for us, the melody is first, and then you can go back and tweak the words for whatever you want it to mean. Torsten Schmidt At the same time, you got to produce people like King Push, without the ‘T,’ is probably one of the most audible guys and enunciated guys out there. No matter where, you can always hear every single syllable, if not letter. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, that’s what he’s about. Taiwo Hassan Like, Pusha T, I don’t know if you all remember, he used to be part of the Clipse. Him and his brother, they were like super lyricists, in the world where, back in 2003, it was really just about “Tip Drill,” all that stuff Nelly had, which was dope, but they were penetrating with some real stuff. And, he’s still doing the same thing now. It’s crazy. It’s a testament to, if you do have important words, how long it can live. Kehinde Hassan Outside of melodies. Taiwo & Kehinde Hassan His melodies are very ... he’s doing melodies, but it’s just not as pronounced as a R&B song, or a pop song, so the words are more important, in that scenario, I would say. Torsten Schmidt I guess before we get to Pusha, I would like to play a little something. (music: Junior M.A.F.I.A. – “Get Money”) Here’s to Christopher Wallace, and a guy called Lamont Porter. Taiwo Hassan Wow, but that’s Junior M.A.F.I.A. – “Get Money.” Kehinde Hassan So, I tell you two things about the serendipity and the album cover of Junior M.A.F.I.A., right? We’ll get to that real quick. So, the guy that created that record, the production, is a guy named EZ Elpee. He’s responsible for us being music producers. You wouldn’t know who we are if that guy didn’t grab us up. We were in college, junior year. We were those college kids that really – we knew we were going to be big, but we didn’t know what we were going to do. Torsten Schmidt Of course you did. Kehinde Hassan Of course. We’re Nigerians, you know. [laughs] Kehinde Hassan Somehow, some way, our beat... it wasn’t even our demo. Some guys we demoed, we made beats for their album, and he heard it. And he said, “The raps are wack, but those beats, who made those beats?” And, we’re like 18 years old. Taiwo Hassan He texted us on a two-way pager. You all remember what that is? A Motorola pager?
We used to have two-way pagers back then. We didn’t sell dope, it was just something you did. Kehinde Hassan It was just the cool thing to do. Torsten Schmidt Just a little bit of status. Kehinde Hassan Yeah. Exactly. Just a little bit of college status, whatever. So, he hit us up, and we didn’t believe it was him. Long story short, he wanted us to work with him and be part of his production company. And he said, “Send me some beats. Let’s figure something out.” And, the first beat we sent him is a Lil’ Kim – “Get in Touch with Us,” on her album La Bella Mafia. That’s our first platinum plaque, at 18 years old. Torsten Schmidt It’s funny you say that. Can we quickly watch video number 10 for about 50 seconds or so? Taiwo Hassan It’s amazing. We love old Bollywood, that’s great. Kehinde Hassan So, in Nigeria, we grew up watching Bollywood movies. All the family would sit around. There would be like 30 or 40 of us, in our uncles’ mansions, and we’d watch Bollywood movies for hours. We didn’t know what the hell they were saying, we just laughed and the music was so good. So, I was dating someone, at the time, in college. She was getting her eyebrows threaded, and she made me go with her. Like, “Just sit with me. I’m getting my eyebrows done.” I’m like, “Whatever, man.” So, I go there, and I hear this sample. I heard that, just a sample playing, and all the women there are Indian. I said, “What’s that record?” “Oh, I don’t know, some movie. You can go next door. They have all these movies, CDs you can buy, soundtracks.” I said, “What?” So, I went and found out. The movie’s called Kasoor. We didn’t have records placed back then, and I showed it to him, and he’s like, “Yeah, we should do something like that.” Chopped it up, looped it up, drummed on it, sent it out. [That became] Lil’ Kim’s record with Styles P. Torsten Schmidt Well, maybe one quick hint of it, because we’ve got tons of shit to go through. (music: Lil’ Kim feat. Styles P – “Get in Touch with Us”) It’s kind of fun how you went from Biggie to Junior M.A.F.I.A. to Lil’ Kim. It
was all one camp. Taiwo Hassan Yep, and we just became friends with Chi Modu, who’s the guy that did all the photos for 2Pac, Biggie, and he did the Junior M.A.F.I.A. album that that song is on. He just did an exhibition here, like two months ago, or something. Kehinde Hassan And he’s Nigerian. Taiwo Hassan And he’s Igbo, like Nigerian. We had a really good conversation yesterday about going back to Nigeria, and doing all this stuff, so that’s just dope. Deep. It’s a good surprise. This is nice. Torsten Schmidt I was wondering, you had this hook up, by this one guy, and I think it’s a classic transition that a lot of people have to go through in their career, that someone gives them a leg up, gives them a break, and then at one stage, you surpass them. And, that somehow does weird things with the relationship, at times. Taiwo Hassan We surpassed a lot of people. We’ve outlived a lot of people. But, we had a moment, after that. We moved to New York and we became bankers, doing investments with Chase Bank, so we had a short break. We learned business, stocks, and investments and stuff. Torsten Schmidt I mean, evolution is not linear, and you guys went to become investment bankers, and then you stopped at a time which suggests that Lehmans was a good thing for you? Taiwo Hassan Lehmans? You mean the Lehman Brothers? Kehinde Hassan I got fired. That’s why I stopped. He actually quit because of me. We were living in Atlanta. We had a house at 24 years old. I love saying that, because that was funny to have the house. We were part of the whole sub-prime thing. Right? Our interest rate was ridiculous. Torsten Schmidt So it was you guys. Kehinde Hassan Yes. We were part of it. We helped. Taiwo Hassan We weren’t the bankers. Kehinde Hassan We were the guys that had the house. So, I got fired from the job for not doing compliance things. I wasn’t paying attention. It was the best thing that happened. Because I got fired, he was like, “Alright, well, I shouldn’t work at the bank either. We should figure something out.” And, he made this song, called, “Famous Girl” and then we moved back to New York, and then the next chapter started. Torsten Schmidt Before we get there, seeing that you had your feet in both worlds, what is less realistic, Billionaires or Empire? Kehinde Hassan Less realistic? Taiwo Oh, the show. See, he doesn’t watch Billions. You mean the show Billions? He doesn’t watch that. Kehinde Hassan Empire’s not realistic. It doesn’t make sense. Taiwo Hassan Well, Billions is... We didn’t play on that level. We were doing the annuities, and home equity loans, and small investments. But, Billions seems pretty accurate. Empire is, to me, I love everyone on the show, because I know when they came up as actors, but it’s a non-African or African American’s version of what African-Americans go through in the music industry. And then, the guy that wrote the show, sat in the car one day and he said ... it was a guy, it was a producer. I forget his name. He came up with the show because he heard Jay-Z or something on the radio, and he thought about the beef between the east and west coast, back in the day, like Puffy and Suge Knight, and he decided to write that show. So, it’s coming off a really messed up premise. The show, for what it is, is dope for the actors, but for what it represents, for our culture, is not good, and it’s not accurate. We’re not going around shooting each other like that. It’s crazy. Torsten Schmidt Is Atlanta doing a better job? Taiwo Hassan Atlanta’s doing a way better job, for sure. Kehinde Hassan Atlanta’s probably about 70% accurate. Especially, living down there. I think the part about the kids running up on each other, and the violent parts are a bit exaggerated. But, it’s there. Taiwo Hassan I mean, Donald [Glover] is from Stone Mountain, and I used to work at a bank called SunTrust in Stone Mountain. So, Stone Mountain, Georgia is a rough place. Some nice parts, but it’s rough, so, yeah, it’s pretty accurate. But you shouldn’t watch television if you want to know what African Americans are going through. Kehinde Hassan Just hang with one. Taiwo Hassan Don’t hang with one. We’re not a museum. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, I’m just saying be friends with all cultures, Turkish people, Kurdish people, everyone. Taiwo Hassan If you want to learn about people, just study and read, and just don’t watch TV. TV’s entertainment. That’s what it’s for. It’s sensationalized, so, yeah. Torsten Schmidt Getting sensationalist stuff out of the way, can you tell us about that Nike story? Taiwo Hassan Oh, the shoes, that’s him. [points to Kehinde] Kehinde Hassan Growing up in Nigeria, two things we fantasized about: name brand shoes [and] keyboards. We spoke keyboards into existence. We used to lie to our friends, when we were nine years old in Nigeria, that my father has a keyboard for us in America. And, I remember it was Muyiwa and Segun. They lived next door. And they’re like, “Yeah, right. Your father doesn’t have that. You don’t have money,” or whatever. So, we get to America and, “Oh, shit, Pops really got keyboards for us, and we really got anything we want.” We’re like, “Oh, OK, this is great.” Also, we didn’t have name brand shoes. We had Payless. I don’t know if any of you know what that is, but Payless is like the lower version of sneakers, so... Taiwo Hassan It’s worse than Woolworths. Kehinde Hassan It’s worse than Woolworths. You buy sneakers for like 20 bucks. Whatever. We would paint Nike signs on them. Torsten Schmidt That’s what Virgil [Abloh] does. Kehinde Hassan You’re right. You’re right. It’s funny because we know all his cousins, because we’re from Chicago and we grew up with all his cousins. Anyway, different story. So, when we were nine, 10, we really even now, we know how to really draw well. That’s why we design. And, when I was nine, I really knew how to draw. I could look at anything, draw it, it looked like an adult drew it. So, my father used to get Time magazine, I can’t believe we even know this. My father used to get Time magazine, and on the back, there was Air Max. Obviously, I was fascinated with the Nike sign, like any design kid, so I traced the outline of the shoe. I remember, it was Andre Agassi’s shoe. It had like one strap that went across, and it had holes. And I said, “Man, that’s dope. I should just design that, make it a high top, put two straps across.” Apparently, I learned last year, that Nike never had a two strap technology. I created that, without even noticing it. That’s why Jordan had the two strap, the Air Raids. I was like, “Wow, that’s crazy.” So, anyway, I designed them, looked on the back of a Nike box – I don’t know where I got it from because we didn’t own Nikes – sent it to Portland, and they sent the letter back. Two different letters for two different shoes I drew. And he said, “Oh, thank you for your submission. These are nice, but keep submitting. We don’t need these,” and they sent the shoe back. At this point, we were in sixth grade. This girl named Kanisha was running around a few months later. She had these shoes on. I was like that looked like the shoe I drew. That’s kind of crazy. I said, “Where’d you get those shoes from?” She said, “Where? These are David Robinson shoes.” “Like, David Robinson? I made those.” Of course, she didn’t believe me. I had to bring the picture to show them. I’m like, “Look. This is my design.” My Pops didn’t take it seriously, so that’s that. Torsten Schmidt Have you been invited back to Beaverton in the mean time? Taiwo Hassan No, we can’t find that letter, that drawing. And even if you did they’d say, you know, statute of limitations. Kehinde Hassan I actually tried to have my lawyer go back, but the statue of limitation on anything like that, but... Torsten Schmidt Yeah, but I guess seeing where they are, especially this week. This is a perfect jump off for them to give you a consulting contract. Taiwo Hassan The [Colin] Kaepernick stuff? Kehinde Hassan They need it, yeah. Taiwo Hassan They’re vulnerable. Kehinde Hassan Vulnerable, yeah. Torsten Schmidt Not vulnerable, but it would totally fit the narrative. Let’s call someone after this. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, make some calls. Torsten Schmidt Speaking of calls. For the next one, because you briefly mentioned it. Do you want to hear the audio or want to show people the video? Taiwo The video. Because, it’s a lot... Torsten Schmidt OK. Number one, please. (video: Christian Rich – “Famous Girl”) Kehinde Hassan So, this is where the Christian Rich story becomes what it is. So, if you’re sleeping, wake up so you can know how to get rich, right? Seriously, that’s how we met Pharrell. If you don’t know that we know Pharrell, that’s how we met him. They heard that song, they thought we were two white guys, and they were looking for us. We’re in the video, but we have masks on. So, Pharrell and Shay from N.E.R.D. sourced us out, found us, changed our lives. But, before we get to that... Taiwo Hassan But the song... that song, I produced that and I’m singing on it and I’m rapping on it. This is when we lived in Atlanta, and I was a banker, and we couldn’t sell any beats. Kehinde Hassan Like a few years, like four years, maybe. Torsten Schmidt That’s like ten years ago, right? Taiwo Hassan This is 2006, 2007? So, this is when we went out on our own and we were working with EZ Elpee, so we couldn’t sell any beats. We lost the house because I had a breakdown, or as Kanye [West] would say, I had a breakthrough. So, I just didn’t want to work anymore. I just wanted to do music. So, we left the house and moved to an apartment in mid-town Atlanta, and he went on a date, or something, with some girl. And, I was just sitting in the house and I’m like, “OK. I need to figure something out. We’re not selling beats. I need to just write.” And I think I been working on my vocals for a while. The original song doesn’t have auto-tune – that version does. But I really taught myself how to sing, listening to any N.E.R.D. songs, Pharrell and all that stuff. Kehinde Hassan The-Dream. Taiwo Hassan The-Dream. And T-Pain. So, that song came about, and we kind of put a whole little mixtape together and sent it out around Chicago. And then we started to get a little buzz with our friends and other people, so then I decided we should move back to New York. We moved to New York, we met these guys that did the video BB Gun. They ended up doing a bunch of cool videos, Enrique Iglesias and some other people, but it all started from that video. Anyways, like he said, then we met Pharrell and those guys and then that chapter began, but we had a whole career as Christian Rich where I was just singing and rapping, and then when he felt like it, he would rap us some songs. Kehinde Hassan So, that song, as soon as we did that song, we got a residency at Webster Hall in New York. You guys remember Webster Hall? They had a studio. The Christian Rich story is so crazy. That’s the first time we started calling ourself Christian Rich. Torsten Schmidt Why? Would you pick the name again, now? Kehinde Hassan If we picked it now, we’d probably pick a Yoruba name. We’re very... we want things to be a bit more Nigerian these days. The name’s still great, but it was a styling company I was making, and I called it Christian Rich. And, us being bankers, he said, “I’m going to start a S corp,” if you know what a S corp is, and he named it Christian Rich. As we get into the Christian Rich world, we started meeting everyone fast. Like, we met Pharrell, started hanging out with them. That became, even now, a nine-year relationship, which is kind of weird at the same time. We met Diddy, like literally we recorded his album for like two weeks. We were working for him for two weeks in his studio. Long story, Lupe Fiasco. We worked with so many people. Taiwo Hassan We’re just in a very niche spot. The kind of music we make and the people we make it for, so it kind of put us in a nice avant-garde kind of space, which is cool. Torsten Schmidt But, if you approach it like an athlete, I mean, you’re getting blows at that stage, and how do you keep the strength to go, “OK. I had ten almosts and nothing good ever released.” Taiwo Hassan You got a bunch of stuff that’s working too. If you’re really out there working, you got stuff that’s working. At that time, we had... What did we have? I think we had a J. Cole record? J. Cole and Ludacris were fighting over our record. Kehinde Hassan That’s another story. Torsten Schmidt Two people that have some how played a role in your trajectory, were Pusha [T], who was mentioned before, who has a bit of a Def Jam love as well and John West. Taiwo Hassan John West. Wow, that story is crazy because we moved to LA. I finally quit being a banker. He already really got fired from the second banking job. I was working at Chase, and then I quit in 2009, went to Chicago for like a year and then moved to LA. Didn’t even understand what a publishing deal was so much. And then we run into this guy named John West who’s like a street performer. He just got to deal with Def Jam, and we went to go meet his manager... Kehinde Hassan Ben. Taiwo Hassan Ben, yeah, to go do a mixtape kind of thing for DC shoes. We had, like, some type of deal with them. And he gives me this song. Like, “Can you do something with this?” I said, “I think we can produce this song better.” Take it home, had a session, produced it, put strings and all that stuff on it. So Shay’s our manager we’re like, “Yo, can you get Pusha on here? I think Pusha would be good for this song. Tell him we’ll have them pay him 10K or something like that.” Pusha gives the verse the next day. And John West, his publisher at the time, is in the session. He’s kind of being a dickhead. He’s just kind of like, “Who are these guys?” Two weeks later the manager hooks us up, we end up becoming cool with his publisher. And then we sign with Warner Chapel. So us signing with Warner/Chappell is very important because that’s how we got to work with Earl Sweatshirt and EP his first album... Kehinde Hassan And Vince Staples. Taiwo Hassan And Vince Staples. Because this A&R linked us with his A&R. So the Pusha, John West thing is very important, because we just moved to LA, we had some money from some other things we had before, but we were new in town, and that literally set the trajectory to a whole different place, that song. Kehinde Hassan Changed the brand, definitely changed the brand. We got a little bit closer to how we wanted the brand to look. Torsten Schmidt And yeah, why don’t we take a quick look at video number three to see what that brand got to look and sound like. Kehinde Hassan Ah, there’s a video for this song. I meant, Earl Sweatshirt, I don’t mean this... [laughs] Taiwo Hassan Probably just didn’t make sense with the theme. It’s a bit happy, and you can tell the sound is dark. But that’s significant because most of that was produced by Chad Hugo of The Neptunes. So, when we worked on Earl Sweatshirt’s album, we were meant to just work on like two or three songs. And at the time, we were hanging out with The Neptunes a lot, so Chad was someone we would actually hang out with a lot, too. And then they asked us to do I think, like, three or four days in the studio with Earl. He just got back from Samoa, His mom put them in this school because he was hanging out with Tyler... Torsten Schmidt That’s Earl, not Chad. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, Earl, excuse me. Earl was coming back from Samoa, and was hanging out with Tyler and his mom didn’t like what they were doing a bunch. His mom is a scholar. People don’t know that. His mom is a law attorney at UCLA. So, he comes from like, a really good home. So anyways, he just got back, and he was really trying to understand what’s happening in music. They just got this crazy record deal at Sony. So, I just felt that it makes sense to have Chad Hugo of The Neptunes there, because that’s the sound and, you know, we don’t mind working with other producers, especially if there’s a friend. I’m going to make the story quick because it can be very long. The first session a bunch of different people in there. Early Vince Staples, who didn’t have a record deal. He was just Earl’s friend that was there to just help with some vocabulary and stuff or whatever. Corey Smyth who ends up becoming Vince Staples manager, and now is Dave Chappelle’s manager. And then Kenna and a bunch of relationships started from that session that we did. So we had Chad come down, and then Chad brings like 1,000 keyboards down because he’s just ready to get into the zone. And we’re working on the music, and this song came about because Earl came up with the bassline and the piano, and I started doing the drums and then we just started jamming out. And then his A&R came in like, “Yo, that’s the first single.” And I remember Chad started to play beats, and he played a beat that sounded like “Drop It Like It’s Hot.” And I was kind of like, “Eh, that’s not what we’re going for.” And then he pulled me to the side, like, “Ty, I don’t know what to give this kid. He’s too monotone, he’s too dark. “I was like it’s all good. Just follow our lead.” Chad is used to “Superthug...” Kehinde Hassan Pop artists. Taiwo Hassan Britney Spears, stuff like that. And he’s a real musician. He plays almost every instrument. He can learn an instrument, like, in a week. Chad is, like, next level genius. So, I think by the time we got to the end of this song, “Chum,” that same session he started to kind of get in the groove, and then we were just jamming out. I was just pressing some chords on Logic. And then Chad started playing a lead on, like, a Moog or something. Kehinde Hassan Trumpet, bass. Taiwo Hassan And then he went in there and played bass, and then he played the trumpet off key, and he just did all this stuff. And then I just kind of took it together and turned it into the outro. Kehinde Hassan And then we got for Pharrell and Chad together for the first time as producers, and they did a song on that album called “Burgundy.” Because of that. Taiwo Hassan Yeah. So that’s that song itself is very vital to who we are now. Torsten Schmidt How did you manage that sonically? Because, I mean, a big part of that song outside of Earl’s performance is that “Humpty Dump” drum break. Kehinde Hassan Oh, don’t say that. We played that live in the studio. Torsten Schmidt [laughs] And then it goes into this other drum. Kehinde Hassan The second half... The part with Chad, that was Earl playing around. We hated those drums because they’re like Logic stock drums and we’re like, “Ah, let’s change that. Taiwo Hassan You knew that? When you heard that, you knew those drums? Torsten Schmidt There’s only that many breaks, man. Kehinde Hassan True. But yeah, Earl, he just played around and we wanted to replace the drums. And he was just like, “Nah. Let me leave it.” But actually, we tried to put Thom Yorke on this song. And he was like, “Nah, it’s too pop, I want to go dark.” So, it worked either way but, yeah, we were just jamming. Torsten Schmidt I’m not gonna say what I’m thinking. Kehinde Hassan No, I’m messing with you, go ahead, say whatever you want. There’s no sample snitching. Torsten Schmidt We’re just sticking on the Earl thing because, not only was it a pretty important, changing moment, and not only is he a great radio host, as some of you might have heard out there, but I guess there’s a lot of changes that are going on at the same time, and maybe let’s listen to a little bit of this. (music: Earl Sweatshirt – “Chum” / applause) Taiwo Hassan So, that’s another crazy story. That was the sessions for the Doris album. Kehinde Hassan With RZA. Taiwo Hassan With RZA. And his A&R JR Lindsey asked us to... He was in New York, so he asked us to sit in on this session. So, Earl didn’t really understand. He understood, but he really didn’t know who RZA was. He had to ask his mom, “What’s the big deal about it?” He knew who he was, but why is he a big deal. Because I don’t think he wanted to show up. But anyways, he showed up. It’s RZA, and his crew. They’ve got like a hella chicken wings, and like Patron and all this stuff. And we’re just talking for like, six hours. No, like, four hours. And Vince Staples is in there. He’s telling the craziest stories about his hood, where he’s from, that’s something he would always do. So, then we played them the album, what we did so far, and then RZA’s just kind of like, “Yeah, OK, you don’t need me for the album, like, and, you know, I charge too much.” I think he charged quarter of a million. And we’re like, all right, whatever. So, he leaves the room, and he leaves this beat machine. It’s like an MPC, but it’s a Roland. And I’m like, “Oh, fuck this, we’re going to get a beat out of this dude.” So, I just go through all his sample pads. And this guy has a video of this – Sony sent some documentary dude to tape all this. So, I’m just going through all the banks. And then I finally find this loop. And then Earl is like, “Yo, let’s use that one.” So, the way to beat the way the sample stops, it stops. We didn’t make it like that’s just the way it stops. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, there was no more of it. Taiwo Hassan Then RZA walks in a room, and he seeing me touching his Roland, and he’s just looking at me. “What the hell are you doing?” But then he hears what we’re coming up with like, “Actually, that’s kind of dope.” I asked RZA to give us a five minute freestyle, because I wanted him to do... Kehinde Hassan With the park mic. Taiwo Hassan With the... Kehinde Hassan You know, what’s that 150 or whatever. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, the Shure. It’s a little outside mic. Kehinde Hassan Basic mic. Taiwo Hassan A preacher mic. And for some reason he just got really amped, and then he just went in the studio and started rapping. It would sound like nonsense... This is funny, RZA was just talking that Bobby Digital shit. What’s that line? He has this line that he says that’s really funny. It ended up on another song that we did with those vocals. But it’s, “Boom, boom, boom, something.” Anyway, so then we took that and Earl was like, “Okay, let’s make that the hook.” And then we chopped it up a certain way. So that’s why... Kehinde Hassan That’s why he’s on the record. Taiwo Hassan That’s why he’s on the song. He didn’t want to be... He liked hanging out with us, but he didn’t want to do a song. So, I don’t think he charged a quarter of a million because, he said if he actually has to touch it and do the beat, then it’s like a quarter of a million. So, technically we did the beat and just took the sample. So, it worked out. We didn’t charge a quarter of a million. But that’s a funny story. Torsten Schmidt As far as the content of what he’s saying, how much how do you deal with providing a carpet and then people... Taiwo Hassan For the type of lyrics they say? Torsten Schmidt It’s like I mean, I guess everyone heard what he was saying, but you strike me more like the, “I want to count your freckles in the morning,” kind of guys rather than what he’s saying. Taiwo Hassan Who, us? Torsten Schmidt Yeah. Taiwo Hassan OK, so we have a lot of sides to us. Kehinde Hassan So, we’re kind of those kind of dudes. I mean, we really, we’re from the hood, we’re from Chicago, and we’re from the hood in Nigeria so we just... We kind of know how to navigate in the world, in the business world, so you can’t show “the fuck your freckles off your face” guy, you can’t show that navigating the world, really. Not that you can’t show it, it just makes the world harder. I would never – real quick – I would never tell a woman that, “I’ll fuck the freckles off your face.” Kehinde Hassan Girl, I would say girl, or lady, or young lady. Taiwo Hassan I’m not trying to fuck the freckles off no one’s face. I’m just trying to have a good time. [laughter] Kehinde Hassan You know, if you look at the artists we work with, we don’t really... We will work with everybody, but you know when it comes to like trap music, I would love to work with Migos, and Future, and what’s the new kid? [unintelligible] I think. But if you pay attention to the kind of hip-hop we do, it’s kind of like intellectual rap, but not purposely. Taiwo Hassan I think the genius in Earl’s [music] is being able to take any subject and just turn it into this soliloquy of different angles of the same kind of subject. So, RZA’s talking about fucking a woman or whatever, but then Earl’s talking about how he’s fucking over the label, he gets to do whatever he wants, but he’s talking about a girl. So, his genius really comes in being able to see the 360 of one scenario, and you can see that through his whole career. Kehinde Hassan I think Earl Sweatshirt sees lyrics. If language is linear, he sees it kind of like that movie Arrival, he sees it like it’s all happening at the same time, so you can see all the different parts. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, the beginning and end. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, exactly. He knows the end result because he knows the middle, because he knows the beginning. So, he can attack it that way. Torsten Schmidt Five points for metaphor there. Kehinde Hassan There you go. Torsten Schmidt Yeah that’s probably go back to safer, nerdy territory. Taiwo Hassan Keep it dirty, keep it real. Torsten Schmidt Why don’t we bring some Cologne and some [David] Axelrod in here? Same album. (music: Earl Sweatshirt feat. Vince Staples – “Centurion” / applause) Kehinde Hassan Tell the original version of that song. Taiwo Hassan Which one? Kehinde Hassan Buddy and Snoop [Dogg]. Taiwo Hassan Oh, that’s one of those songs that somebody else picked first. Pharrell’s artist, Buddy, he’s a great artist now. But he picked that beat first. I don’t know what they did with it. It was him and Snoop. And that song was actually good. But I played like an early example of this beat to Earl, and he was just like, “That’s mine, I’m using it,” so that was that. But that’s David Axelrod, “A Divine Image.” We’ve had that sample since 2006, 2007, just trying to find what to do with it, so that landed... Kehinde Hassan And David Axelrod is actually the A&R – he’s a jazz artist experimental artist, but he’s the A&R... Or was, he passed, God bless him. We wanted to work with him. He actually was fair with the sample clearance a bit, but he’s the A&R at Atlantic who actually put Lou Rawls on. Taiwo Hassan Columbia. Kehinde Hassan No, it was Atlantic. Taiwo Hassan Columbia. Kehine Hassan Columbia, whatever. One of those labels. So, his history goes deep to music but then the business side. Kehinde Hassan Can you find the intro and play the intro of that song? Not, like, the very beginning intro of... Torsten Schmidt You mean Axelrod? Kehinde Hassan No, no, ours, “Centurion.” Not where Vince is rapping, but like it’s a little bit after he does it, after all that. (music: “Centurion” intro) Taiwo Hassan You guys hear that vocal, that screaming? That’s the group Can, and that’s from a 14-minute song which I didn’t mean to leave on there. It was just for effect. And his A&R made me leave it on there, and they took half the publishing of the song. For that part. Torsten Schmidt You talk about Nigeria, you don’t with fuck Cologne. Kehinde Hassan Oh, are they from Cologne? That was worth it. Taiwo Hassan I don’t know if it was worth it, man. Kehinde Hassan It was worth it. Taiwo Hassan I like Can, they’re dope. But man, that was kind of shady. Anyway, that’s how you all get down in Cologne. OK. Mental note. Torsten Schmidt Speaking of people you don’t talk to anymore, because I was curious when I was going through these things and you mentioned it earlier, but somehow I figured that was more the reason, because – Kehinde Hassan We still talk. Torsten Schmidt Because that’s clearly a Pharrell starting... Taiwo Hassan No, no, he loved us, because I sounded like him vocally, and our aesthetics... No, no, no, Donald asked me for Neptune beat. And then I just did a Neptune beat for him. If you ask me for a Neptune beat, I know how to do a Neptune beat. Torsten Schmidt Oh, you can count to four. Taiwo Hassan Right. Now, do you notice anything else in that beat? Torsten Schmidt I think I wanted to talk about the same artist, but maybe a different beat. (music: Childish Gambino feat. Christian Rich – “The Palisades” / applause) Lando Calrissian. Taiwo Hassan Star Wars? I forgot the name of that. I know him as Donald, but Lando works, too. He’s going to have his own movie, I heard, his own Lando movie. That’s a crazy song. Torsten Schmidt That’s when Lando was still doing music. Kehinde Hassan Finding Childish Gambino was all his idea. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, see, we were working on Earl’s album, and a mutual friend told me that Donald is a big fan of Earl Sweatshirt, so we were doing a whole Soho House thing in West Hollywood, hanging out, and I saw him, or maybe the friend introduced us, I don’t know. And I knew what to say to him to just try to work on his music. I knew he was working on some new music. I wasn’t really into what he did before. But we’re the type that if we don’t like what you did before, we’re gonna help you make it better. We’re not gossip and talk shit about you. We’re just gonna help you make it better in our own way. So, I told him, “Hey, we’re working on Earl Sweatshirt’s album. Come by the house and just come listen to it.” And I didn’t think he was gonna do it. He texts me like, a week later, brings his whole crew to come listen to it in my car. And I’m playing it for them, they’re just like, “OK.” And then a week later they were renting out... Chris Bosh, who’s an NBA player, was renting out some house in Pacific Palisades, his house was on a hill, it’s crazy. And he invites us over, we’re playing a bunch of beats, and then that beat stuck out. The original version didn’t have that 808. Because he actually went in and co-produced it with us, added the 808 and the choir. But the beat was there, and the hook was there. This girl named Kai, who ended up doing some dope records with Diplo, and Flume and some other people. The story of how I got her vocals is so crazy. Torsten Schmidt Alright. Speaking of which, number eight please, on the videos. (video: Vince Staples – “Señorita” / applause) Kehinde Hassan Ah, shit. Wow. That was 2014. Every record we have has a crazy story. 2014, downtown Los Angeles. This one we were still roommates, in my kitchen, our kitchen. Laptop out, listening to Travis Scott, I said, “This kid has a great energy.” That’s why I was saying humans move by feelings. I heard the feeling of his music and I said, “I want to make a trap record,” and I made that. The original version had piano chords on there. And any time we do beats I’ll start a beat, and I’ll send it to him, so I told him, “Listen to this beat.” And he heard all the chords, and he was like, “Take the chords out, just put the... Leave the pianos staccato.” I was like, “Ah, that sounds great.” We sent that to Pusha T, long story, Pusha T was like, “I don’t want to do trap records.” Before we even got a note from him I already sent it to Vince Staples. His manager hit me back like, 50 seconds later, “Yo, got it, we’re using it. Single. Thank you.” Great. But that sample, that voice is Future, it was a reference. I just wanted to say, “Let’s do an aggressive, Atlanta kind of record.” But I guess they heard it and said, “Nah, let’s leave him on there.” So, Future’s manager and Corey, who was Vince’s manager... Future didn’t know who Vince was, he was like, “Who is this? Why would I clear this?” And he explained to him who he was, and the trajectory of just the way the brand is, and they cleared it, and [that was] Vince Staples’ arrival, really. And they were really playing that record without telling us they were about to put it out low key. It was hilarious. The first time we saw it it was South by Southwest. I just see all these kids going crazy online. I’m like, “What song are they talking about?” And I play the video, and it’s this song. But that was the beginning of... Not really the beginning, but for Vince that was the beginning of us doing records that were monumental for him. Torsten Schmidt The one we played before that was the first one you worked with Vince, right? “Centurion?” Kehind Hassan Yeah, “Centurion.” And then we had our song on our album called FW14 called “High.” That was really the first song that we did. And then “Señorita.” Torsten Schmidt Just for context, FW14 would be... Taiwo Hassan That’s our first solo LP that we put out with an indie label. That came out 2015. And we had some jams on that. Pretty great records. Torsten Schmidt So, if you have time later, because... I mean, we have a bunch of shit to go through. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, check it out. SS14, FW14. Great albums. Torsten Schmidt Is that, like, what fashion for winter, or what is it? Taiwo Hassan Yeah, people always make fun of us and say Christian Rich sounds like a clothing brand. So, we wanted to play on it. Kehinde Hassan We were like, okay, let’s make seasons, albums, you know. We should have made merch. We didn’t make merch. But it would have made sense. (music: Vince Staples – “Big Fish” / applause) Torsten Schmidt There’s a bunch of things in there. One of the curious things is probably before we get to the actual story that evolved around that and the sharks and that, but you are actually sampling and old Vince Staples track in there sort of, right? Kehinde Hassan No. You mean like... Torsten Schmidt The “Norf Norf” bit? Kehinde Hassan Nah that’s just him saying it. Yeah, there’s no samples in there. Torsten Schmidt And so he’s just repeating an old line? Taiwo Hassan Yeah, he was repeating an old line, which technically counts as a sample, but nah, no samples. Torsten Schmidt Alright. So what’s the story with the video and all that that happened? Kehinde Hassan Well, I actually don’t know the story of the
video. Torsten Schmidt No, the radio thing, why it became so big a year afterwards? Kehinde Hassan Is that what happened? Torsten Schmidt I guess so. Kehinde Hassan We were here so, oh damn OK. I can only guess maybe Def Jam was like, “OK, this is working.” But OK, the day before we moved... My brother was here in Berlin a week or two before me, so the day before we moved to Berlin I made that song, and I was in the studio with Vince. We had another track on the Big Fish album. And I remember he had a board – I’m gonna tell you guys a really funny story, he had a board that said “Big Fish Theory” and it was all the tracks. And there’s this set producer in the room that you guys all know and they’re arguing. And they’re arguing about tracks. And I’m just like, “Why am I here?” He’s like, “Yo, just let me play you the album.” Listened to the album, I heard our other track, and I said, “This is nice but you need that big song. You need something that’s gonna make people say, “Yo Vince you know?” I didn’t have the track, but I said, “Listen, I’m gonna make you a song that’s gonna have a big feature on there, and it’s gonna be a single.” Whatever, cool. I go home, I already had all my stuff packed ready for Berlin, so I had my desktop out and made the beat real quick. I already had the Juicy J hook from something else, so we put that hook on there. I sent it to him [points to Taiwo] and I said, “Yo, can you fix this up before I send it out?” So he did his thing to it, sent it out. Vince and his manager were calling me at the same time again within 30 seconds. And boom, single. But when we made that record with Vince I was telling Vince – I don’t want to get into this – but I was telling Vince about manifestation. And I was telling him let’s manifest something. I thought of what it was and he was like, “OK, OK, yo let’s manifest a hit.” And we made that record whatever it is. So, I can only guess that it got bigger outside of just the album because that’s normally how record labels work. If a record is doing well and they see more traction than expected then they go pay for radio. So, that’s probably what happened. Torsten Schmidt But what was that story about the woman in LA calling the radio station about being offended by the lyrics and stuff? Kehinde Hassan Oh, that was “Norf Norf.” Torsten Schmidt Yeah, which is the line that Vince repeated. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, that’s probably what he was referencing. Taiwo Hassan There was a lady there. Kehinde Hassan Christian lady. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, she heard “Norf Norf” on the radio, and she was offended because of the lyrics. These were vulgar lyrics at the time. Actually, Vince doesn’t curse anymore because of that woman. So yeah, he doesn’t curse on Big Fish, there’s no clean version. So, she actually made an effect. I think because that video went viral of this Christian woman going crazy over “Norf Norf” it projected it kind of boosted everything else for him so maybe that’s what you’re referring to. Torsten Schmidt Yeah, I mean I was just thinking because of the line that he repeats from that song. But it’s curious that you’re saying that he doesn’t cuss anymore. Taiwo Hassan No. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, at least on that song. Taiwo Hassan I haven’t heard him curse in any song. We have another song. OK, he curses on that. He didn’t curse on that song. Nevermind. Torsten Schmidt Probably a little later we could talk about more details as you brought the session files. Taiwo Hassan Yes, for Big Fish. Torsten Schmidt I know we’re doing a little bit bad for time so make a pick. Do you want to talk Drake, Jay-Z, Wale or Jaden Smith? Taiwo Hassan What was the first name? Kehinde Hassan Drake and Jay-Z – “Pound Cake.” Wale. Taiwo Hassan Forget about that. Kehinde Hassan You think Jaden? Taiwo Hassan Yeah, that’s boring. Let’s talk about Jaden. Kehinde Hassan Let’s talk about Jaden because that’s an interesting story. Torsten Schmidt Alright. I guess we got a video for that one too right? (video: Jaden Smith feat. Christian Rich – “Ghost” / applause) So you’re playing Monopoly a lot? Taiwo Hassan He is. Kehinde Hassan I just love Monopoly. I used to. Taiwo Hassan That song has a very funny origin. You can tell him. Kehinde Hassan OK. So, “Ghost” we produced that with FNZ, who do a lot of stuff with A$AP Rocky and HWLS. That was a Red Bull session we made that beat in LA. Ironically. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, Red Bull Studios. Kehinde Hassan We just signed our publishing deals, and we hit up Red Bull and said we need to record and just produce with other producers. And we did three tracks or four, and that was the one that stuck out to me. So, the way we do sessions we’ll just, we’re producing with other people or artists... We learned that from Pharrell. You create songs. If I’m in with Ariana Grande, we make five songs, maybe she’ll use two, then we have three. But we don’t let them go to waste. So, when we had this song this track itself it was either going to be pitched to French Montana, A$AP Rocky, who we actually did pitch it to, or we’re gonna keep it as artists. Torsten Schmidt Folks might get a little confused because you talk a lot about the brand and the product and that mercantile aspect of it. And think like, “Oh hang on, do these guys think in spreadsheets?” But I think there’s aspects where it’s pretty clear that you’re not because there’s also outside of the designing, which is a totally different ball game, another side to you which is I guess the film things that you’re trying to get into. And there you’re making sure people don’t forget about the people, the giants whose shoulders we stand on, and I hear there’s a project about Benjamin Wright Jr. somewhere in the works. Taiwo Hassan Oh, it was in works. Yeah, before we left LA I got introduced to Benjamin Wright. He’s a string conductor. He did Michael Jackson’s “Rock with You” and “Don’t Stop“ and he did all of Justin Timberlake’s stuff, except “Cry Me A River.” He did everything else. And the funny thing is his name’s Benjamin Wright, and he lives in the Valley in LA and we went to his house and then this Chinese African American woman comes to the door. We’re like, “Oh we’re at the wrong house. We’re looking for a white dude named Benjamin Wright.” She’s like, “This is the house.” Because he’s black he’s African American, he’s from Mississippi. He was able to dodge the Vietnam War, in an unfortunate way. But his story is just crazy. No one knows who he is. He’s signed to Quincy Jones [Music] Publishing, and we just thought we should do a documentary on him. So we started to put that together. We were working with – what’s that production company called? Yours Truly yeah. A really cool production company out of LA. When I moved I kind of started, moved to Berlin, kind of started doing other stuff. I left other people to do that, and they ended up not doing it. They ended up not getting along. Kehinde Hassan So, maybe we could revisit it. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, but we’re working on an anime now. Kehinde Hassan We’re actually doing an anime cartoon series. Taiwo Hassan That’s something we’re doing for ourselves. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, 30 minute episode. Taiwo Hassan And we’re scoring the whole thing. Everything goes back to us just doing the whole music. We just want to score it ourselves. Torsten Schmidt When is that going to see the light of day? Taiwo Hassan Hopefully 2020. Kehinde Hassan But there will be a trailer of sorts that kinda will be floating around end of this year maybe. Torsten Schmidt You just mentioned another person that you seem to be a fair, be doing a fair bit of work with and also kind of a loop back to Chicago as well. And that’s probably a nice way to end before we go to questions and maybe those session files. Vic Mensa? Kehinde Hassan Man, Vic. So this generation of artists now I can name 10 artists that were influenced by us without us even realizing it. Some of them know us personally, Chance the Rapper’s whole, his visuals the album cover all came from a kid that – OK, can I tell that story real quick? Then you’ll understand Vic while I’m saying this. So, GoldLink, SZA, Chance the Rapper, Vic Mensa, Vince Staples all these people kind of link back to us inspiration wise. So, Vic Mensa introduced Chance to our music. Vic has always been a fan, but we never met him. Taiwo Hassan With his old group, Kids These Days. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, Kids These Days. So, he’s always rooting for us when we were back in New York. So we had an album cover called The Decadence and the kid that drew it I worked with him when we were 18 when we did The Decadence, which was probably 15 years later. That album cover is what Chance saw and said, “Yo I want the guy that drew that to do my artwork.” Which is now all his merch, the Acid Rap cover, all of that. So, Vic is responsible for kind of getting the kids, the youth in Chicago, to understand who we were musically. So, whenever we would meet Vic, it was always love. We worked on his first mixtape, the Innanetape I think it was called, before he had his big break. And he’s always been the little homie that’s always active with Chicago artists. And we have a new song called “Dripping Summers” with Little Dragon that he wanted to be on so he’s on that. So, now we’re kinda doing a bit more work together, but he’s a dear friend and just fellow a African. He’s half Ghanaian, so it’s always good to work with Vic. Torsten Schmidt Yeah, there seems to be a bigger breed of artists in Chicago now then let’s say that have a national and global role in the hip-hop world way more than before G.O.O.D. Music existed, right? Taiwo Hassan Of course. Even before G.O.O.D. music, Lupe Fiasco was big in the city. Before him was Twista, Crucial Conflict, Do or Die. Kehinde Hassan Psychodrama. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, but I think Lupe probably made the biggest impact because his music sounded more like what they were doing in the east coast. Definitely before G.O.O.D. Music. G.O.O.D. Music is kind of like they kind of made the city make sense musically. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, it was a bit more organized. You can see label artists, artist produced, it was structured. Before it was really the west side now that I think about it. Twista, Do or Die, Crucial Conflict all those guys are from the west side. That’s why the sound was like that. Taiwo Hassan Lupe’s from the west side too. Kehinde Hassan Lupe, yeah. Torsten Schmidt Shall we have a really quick listen to... (music: Christian Rich feat. Little Dragon & Vic Mensa – “Dripping Summers” / applause) Kehinde Hassan Thank you. Torsten Schmidt So, who’s the woman singing there? Kehinde Hassan Yukimi from Little Dragon. Torsten Schmidt So, that’s a mildly different area to touch on than certain other areas that you played with before. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, we’ve been trying to work with them for five, six years. Our publisher hooked us up with their label at the time and we did a remix for them and then we just traded favors, did a remix we didn’t charge them we did a song they didn’t charge us. So yeah, it’s that simple. And they turned that in, in like an hour. Once they were off tour or whatever what’s this like three weeks ago she gave us the song on Wednesday, no yeah, Wednesday and we put the song out on Thursday the next day. And Vic did his verse quickly and sent it. Torsten Schmidt How’s the process different when you have something like that in mind compared to I don’t know getting something for Wale? Taiwo Hassan In what sense? Torsten Schmidt Just when you produce the actual track? Taiwo Hassan Well, the Wale song was a beat that we had around. It was a Christian Rich beat for our project and we had that beat around. That was actually the original beat that beat was supposed to be on Earl Sweatshirt’s album. The label really wanted him to use it. He didn’t use it because it was too pop for him. And then, somebody else picked it ... Kehinde Hassan A$AP Rocky and Swizz Beatz. Taiwo Hassan A$AP Rocky and Swizz Beatz. They had a song to it that was crazy. I heard it he played it for me. It was dope. Kehinde Hassan Yeah. Nicki Minaj was supposed to do it but she didn’t do it so then Wale ended up using it. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, Wale really, really wanted to use it, so we let him use it. But with Wale it’s us as producers so it was a little different when you do that. But this is our own song so we’re curating exactly who we want on that beat, how we want it to sound, and how we want the song to come out. So, it’s two different processes as far as when it’s our own project and when it’s someone else’s for their album. So, just two different processes. Torsten Schmidt Because you can tell melodically and harmonically it’s a very different thing than all the Earl stuff, for example. Taiwo Hassan Yeah, I mean nowadays we’ve always been super into melodies and chords and all that but we just happened to work with a lot of rappers, so it’s been hard for people to know that we really get into all those dreamy places. So this song is nice to finally put out. Torsten Schmidt Before we get to those session files now what’s the story with that thing on Instagram, that video? Kehinde Hassan Oh Will. Taiwo Hassan Will Smith, yeah. Kehinde Hassan So, that’s why we were in Budapest for five days. Will wanted us to come out to record. We did a whole bunch of songs. He was doing something out there and obviously he went there for five days. Taiwo Hassan He talks about it. He was shooting a movie. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, he was shooting a movie. And we just got in the room, star struck. I was probably star struck for a few hours, couldn’t really work. He had to take over because it was kind of like he was treating us like his little brothers, so he was just telling us mad information, just super cool. And we use the information to make the song. So, he was just like, “I want to make new songs, and I want this idea and that idea.” And we just started feeding him beats and Will writes, he really writes. He’ll just sit down and be like, “Oh yeah, I got a rap to that.” And he’ll just go in, boom, got his song. And yeah, we just develop a relationship with him and he was like, “Yo, I’m gonna use one of these songs.” And we didn’t really get a warning it was more like 10 seconds before he put on Instagram, “Yeah I’m putting this on Instagram I’m gonna add your name.” But I kept egging him on to put that song out because he had a line in the song that said something about LeBron leaving Miami. Torsten Schmidt Good line, though. Taiwo Hassan And then once LeBron went to LA, I was just like, “Yo you should put that out and just say Cleveland instead of Miami.” So, I wrote that one word, Cleveland. Torsten Schmidt Do you get writers credits for that? Taiwo Hassan Yeah, we always get writers credit. Kehinde Hassan Always. Taiwo Hassan But that song is dope just because it is the one song he actually sat down and wrote. He had it pre-written already, he just knocked it out. And we weren’t supposed to use the beat because its just the loop, it’s a sample. And we did a bunch of other versions really trapped out, because he wanted something like “Ghost” but he ended up going with that Gary Glitter vibe. Torsten Schmidt Gary Glitter vibe, yeah? Kehinde Hassan Vibe, vibe the Gary Glitter vibe. Taiwo Hassan Y’all know who Gary Glitter is? OK. We just gonna talk about the music with him, just leave it there. Torsten Schmidt But how does that feel? Obviously, Will was always in a very particular place in hip-hop culture but a lot of our generation grew up listening to “Summertime.” At the same time seeing him in TV clowning. And then seeing him clowning on the big screen and blockbuster movies, and then he tries to compete on a beat with his son? Taiwo Hassan Nah, he can’t compete with his son he was the first rapper to ever win a Grammy, that’s it. And he boycotted the Grammy because they wouldn’t show hip-hop. Torsten Schmidt Well, speaking of young voices, we do want to give the chance to all the young voices in the room to ask their questions and to look a little deeper into how you actually go about arranging these tracks, and so on. But, not before we take the chance and give these two guys a big hand of applause and thank them for sharing with us. Taiwo Hassan Thank you. Kehinde Hassan Thank you. Taiwo & Kehinde Hassan Just, by the way, thank y’all for sitting here. Y’all look tired as fuck. Thank you for sitting through this whole rhetoric. Hot as fuck. So, thank you. Thank you for not falling asleep. Torsten Schmidt Before we get to the really important business of lunch, questions. Questions? Questions? Audience Member You sort of briefly it, but [I want to ask you] about writing splits. How did you guys maybe work that out when you were coming up? Taiwo Hassan Writing splits? Audience Member Writing splits. Because obviously, the law is like, 50% lyrics, 50% melody. But I feel like that really doesn’t reflect the way music is in 2018 because production is such a huge part of what a song is. So I was kind of wondering how you guys worked it, and how you guys feel about that? Taiwo Hassan As a producer, we kind of dictate the splits because everyone trusts that we know the writers and know who did what. So, generally when we produce a song, we, a lot of times don’t write the words, we make the beat. But we share in the writer’s share and the publishing share. We start off at 50% as a producer and then... Kehinde Hassan Then the other 50 is reserved for writing. Taiwo Hassan And sometimes you work your way down because, maybe, there’s four other writers on there and you want to be fair and give them some of your publishing and writing. But, generally speaking, yeah. 50% is yours as a producer. You don’t have to give that up. It just makes your life easier if you’re more lenient and share the publishing a bit. I heard that Kanye, from my old publisher, he just likes to give everybody publishing. He doesn’t care. And the publisher doesn’t like that. But you can do whatever you want. Torsten Schmidt Yeah, but he never does the accounting. And that’s one easy way of... Taiwo Hassan Right. Because he’s super in the creative space, so he just wants to give it away. Audience Member Did you always work it like that, like when you started? Kehinde Hassan Always. You always start at 50 because... Taiwo Hassan That’s just the old school thing we learned from working with EZ Elpee and those guys. You just start at 50, then you go down... Audience Member What if it’s another artist’s track, though? Kehinde Hassan For another artist’s track? Audience Member Yeah. An artist comes to you and say they want you to produce their track for them. Kehinde Hassan Yeah. We taking 50. I don’t care if I put a snare, I’m taking 50. Taiwo Hassan Yeah. Well, it depends. I mean, it’s also... Kehinde Hassan It depends. Taiwo Hassan It depends if you understand the mechanics of how that breaks down. We understand equations are big with publishing and mechanical rights, all that stuff. So, for us, we kind of have the advantage. We know how the numbers should be and how we want it to look so, yeah. Torsten Schmidt But all jokes aside. I mean, getting 50% is one thing. But if someone would actually never, or at least for years, do the accounting, then all you’re sitting with is the advance you got, right? Kehinde Hassan Nah. Taiwo Hassan You do paperwork. You do a producer’s... Kehinde Hassan We’re thorough with that stuff. Taiwo Hassan You have to do a long sheet, or at least a short form. Kehinde Hassan And a LOD, which is a letter of direction. So that’s where they know to send the money to.
If you’re working on a record and you’re not getting accounting statements... In your agreement, a general producer agreement, or a side artist agreement, there’s a part in there that says, “We can go and look at your books.” Taiwo Hassan Yeah. You can look at anyone’s books. Kehinde Hassan If you’re not getting accounting sheets every quarter, which is four in a year, you have the right to go and say, “OK. Let me see your books.” And you don’t have to forewarn them so they don’t cook the book. So you could just be like, “Yo, I need to look at your books right now. My CPA’s right here,” and you can see if you’ve been getting paid or not. Taiwo Hassan You got to finesse that in a good way, because if you start asking for accounting books and stuff, you’re probably going to mess up... Kehinde Hassan It could burn relationships. Taiwo Hassan Yeah. So you just have to be... Kehinde Hassan Be smart about it. Taiwo Hassan ...smart about how you investigate your royalties. But you definitely have the right to look into all that contractually, if you do the right contract. Torsten Schmidt That’s probably an interesting and valid point as well. Legally, you do have the option. But it’s the pretty nuclear solution. Like, there’s a good chance you’re not going to be working with those people for a long while. Taiwo Hassan It depends, you know, how much they want your art. If they like your music that much, it doesn’t matter. It just depends. If you make people hits and make them money, they don’t care. They’ll figure it out. Kehinde Hassan Great question, though. Taiwo Hassan I think she was having a question for a long time. Audience Member Hello. First of all, thanks for all the awesome stories. Their timeless, so don’t be afraid of just sharing them. So, I have two questions. Well, I actually have like, tons of questions, but, I’ll just keep it two. OK, first one is about female vocals on rap tracks. What do you think about that? Well, I want to know how do you work with them? How do you know that a female vocalist will work on a rap and how do you know it is going to work?
And the second question is about trap music. Because trap music right now is got to a point that it’s huge right now. So I want to know your opinion where do you think trap music is heading to? Taiwo Hassan I mean, to us it’s not rap music. It’s just music, so we can put a vocalist on anything. That’s how we look at it. It’s just music. It’s the same 12 notes... Kehinde Hassan 12 scales. There’s only so many scales in music. Taiwo Hassan If you look at music just as that, let people pick the genre. You just make the music. It doesn’t matter there’s a female, or male. If there’s a rapper or singer. As far as trap music, trap is not going to go anywhere because the trap is a real place. And it’s called crack house. So the idea of trap music will always be around. It’s turning pop now because different genres are taking it. But, trap is trap. That’s not going anywhere. Trap has been around... Kehinde Hassan That’s a real situation. Taiwo Hassan Afrika Bambaataa and those guys created trap with the 808s and stuff, and then Atlanta took it and made it... Kehinde Hassan They slowed it down a bit. Taiwo Hasssan Actually New Orleans took it first and made it... Kehinde Hassan Taiwo Hassan What’s that style they got? Bounce music. And then Atlanta and Miami, they kind of took it and made their own thing. So, trap is black music that’s not going anywhere. Black music doesn’t go anywhere. So, no, it ain’t going nowhere. Kehinde Hassan You’re just going to hear new artist trying to interpret the sound. Taiwo Hassan I would learn how to use 808s because them shits ain’t going nowhere. Just know that. Audience Member Hey, what’s up guys? Kehinde Hassan Damn. Nice. Barry White and shit. Audience Member Good evening, good evening everyone. But, no. I just wanted to ask... because I didn’t realize you guys had lived in Atlanta, and I’m from Memphis originally. I was going to say that was another like, birthplace of trap music, too. Kehinde Hassan Where? Audience Member Memphis. Kehinde Hassan Oh, word. Audience Member Yeah. Taiwo Hassan Wait, real quick. We got a version of that Will Smith song with a Memphis rapper doing the hook. Audience Member Who is it? Taiwo Hassan I don’t know. I just found it on some mixtape. I should play that before you’re done. Audience Member Yeah. I would actually like to hear that. I was just curious because you were saying y’all were in Atlanta, what? In like, ‘07-’08, kind of? Kehinde Hassan Yep, yep. Audience Member And I was just curious what the
Atlanta scene was like at that time. Because I moved from Memphis to LA and the whole southern-to-LA change is a really big change. So I was just wondering what the Atlanta scene was like at that time and how different LA felt when y’all first moved there? Kehinde Hassan Atlanta, it was a mixture of what you would call weirdo music, like they said in the XXL magazine. Not “weirdo” to us, but like... Taiwo Hassan Back then was D4L and... Kehinde Hassan D4L. Taiwo Hassan “Laffy Taffy” Kehinde Hassan “Laffy Taffy,” but then there was
the kid named Prototype, like, kind of doing the Outkast music. Then there was... Taiwo Hassan Gucci was really doing his thing. Kehinde Hassan Gucci Mane was just coming up with Jeezy. By that time, Young Jeezy was still doing mix tapes. There’s this producer named Shawty Redd. That trap sound really came from his production. Then you had Zaytoven. I think he was just bubbling around then. But, it was really Shawty Redd. Shawty Redd was producing all of Jeezy’s stuff, so that was the sound. But it felt cool. It was great energy. Taiwo Hassan We were working with Bangladesh. Kehinde Hassan Bangladesh. Bangladesh. We worked with him down there. Taiwo Hassan His house was around the corner from ours. Kehinde Hassan His sound was always weird, in a good way. Because he would take these 808s, and really, if you took the drums out, it was like Berghain music. Taiwo Hassan It was techno. Super techno. Kehinde Hassan Very techno. Detroit techno, but he would put trap drums on them. That’s how you got the “A Milli” record. It was just him messing around. Audience Member [inaudible] Oh, yeah, yeah. Kehinde Hassan Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Taiwo Hassan And “Bossy.” Kehinde Hassan But, LA, you mean, like, LA when we got there in 2010? Audience Member Yeah, was that kind of like a stark transition? Just like a weird change? Taiwo Hassan We came from New York. We went to New York and then LA. Kehinde Hassan Yeah. From Atlanta, we went to New York for like two or three years, and then LA. On both coasts was this resurgence of undergound artists like [Kid] Cudi. So when we were doing music in New York, it was Cudi, us, Wale, Drake, Mickey Factz- Taiwo Hassan J. Cole. Kehinde Hassan J. Cole. We knew J. Cole back then, just running into each other in the streets. It was just like, new artists wanting to do something different and not depending on the older artists for the co-signs. It was just like, “Let’s just do our own thing.” And then when we got to the West coast, same thing. Discovered Odd Future. Somebody played it for us in the hotel. We were like, “That Earl kid is dope.” Then we end up working with him. Who else was around in the West Coast? Taiwo Hassan I thing Tyga started to do his thing. Kehinde Hassan Tyga, Ty Dolla Sign. YG, [DJ] Mustard, “Toot It and Boot It,” and all that kind of stuff.
Very interesting records, you know? And it was amazing to see those guys take it in their own way. So we learned from that. That’s how we got “Big Fish,” the song. We were paying attention to those guys. Mustard still has such a crazy run. We were like, “If he’s doing it well, why don’t we just adopt the sound?” And it worked. So, yeah. Kehinde Hassan My man with the Reeboks. Y’all got the same Reeboks. Audience Member Yeah. Kehinde Hassan No, those are nice. Taiwo Hassan Product placement. OK. Kehinde Hassan Y’all get a check for that? Taiwo Hassan See, I don’t know about that. Audience Member Yeah. They were just in the hotel room, so. I just wanted to ask how much emphasis you guys put onto mixing your own beats? Or, if you guys have specific engineers you like working with? Because I know that makes a difference. I’ve seen sessions where it’s more of a jam thing into a Pro Tools situation. They have somebody else handle the nitty gritty stuff. Or, if you really like to get into your own mixes? Taiwo Hassan Well, we mix everything before we send it to our engineer. Our main engineer is our boy, Stan Greene, who mixed “Ghost.” He mixed... Kehinde Hassan Rihanna’s stuff. Taiwo Hassan Yeah. He mixed a bunch of stuff. Kehinde Hassan Big Sean. Taiwo Hassan We used to hoop together, but that’s our guy. But we mix everything, and then we send it to him just to give it that clean... make sure it’s not hitting the red. Our mixes we can just put out, but we prefer him to do the final mixes. Audience Member Second question is, how much emphasis do you guys put into naming your beats? Kehinde Hassan Great questions. Taiwo Hassan The beats usually become the names of the songs. Kehinde Hassan We know a lot of producers, they’ll name their tracks the day they made them. The dates. And we always tell them, “Yo, title your tracks. That energy transfers. That’s how you sell it.” So, “Crawl” is the name of the beat. Kehinde Hassan “Señorita” is the name of the beat. What else? “Centurion,” that was the name of the beat. We called it “Crime Of The Century.” And then he changed it to “Centurion.” But usually, I can know when I’m not going to sell a track. If the title is wack, I’m like, “Damn.” It’s the energy. For some reason, people can see the words and get the idea of what you were thinking. So, for us it’s important. But, maybe not so much. I don’t know. For us it is. Audience Member No. I feel that. Thank you. Audience Member I was wondering how you deal with being stuck in creativity? I mean, there’s a lot of pressure, especially in this big industry. Like everyone making music sometimes deals with being stuck. Kehinde Hassan Oh, like writer’s block? Audience Member Yeah. Taiwo Hassan Oh. Yeah, I had that for like, a few years. Kehinde Hassan Movies. I watch movies. Taiwo Hassan Do things you like. Because, naturally, I think it inspire the next thought, just that inspired thought. I’ve had writer’s block for many years. I just kind of got back into it last year. Kehinde Hassan And I have my moments, too. I let him create stuff and I just, like, piggyback. Or, I’ll create, he piggyback. It just depends. Taiwo Hassan Or just, live your creativity. The writer’s block would be less if you just live your creativity. You’re just doing it. You’re getting inspired by things. You make a mental note or maybe take a picture, whatever. Do a voice note. But if you live your creativity, then, it will never stop. It just keeps going. And if there is a block, then there’s something else you have to kind of meditate to get the blockage out or something. If you live your creativity, it’ll be less and less of a writer’s block. Does that make sense? Torsten Schmidt Let’s thank these guys again. Kehinde Hassan Thank you, guys. Taiwo Hassan Thank you.
[applause]
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(video: clip from the film Kasoor featuring the song “Zindagi Ban Gaye Ho Tum”)
[plays snippet of a beat]
[applause]
[laughter]
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