Ian Dewhirst

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Well, we have a music authority, a soul historian, a gentleman, who is responsible for a series of legendary compilations and reissues known as the Mastercuts series. He’s joining us today, so please welcome Mr. Ian Dewhirst.

[applause]

IAN DEWHIRST

Thank you, it’s my first time in Canada and it’s been a marvelous three days so far.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Are you enjoying yourself?

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely. Too much.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

First, I want to preface this by saying, by Ian’s request, if there’s anyone who has any questions, you don’t have to wait until the end. Just raise your hand and wait for a microphone, and our technical staff will assist you.

[To Ian] You started out in the Northern soul scene. Can you give us something about how you got into that as a teenager?

IAN DEWHIRST

Basically, I was born in Brighton and then moved to the North of England from about the age of five. During that period in the UK, there was no real radio system. There was the BBC light program, which played a lot of uninteresting music. The only way we could get to hear American recordings was on pirate radio: Radio Caroline, Radio Luxembourg, stations like that. It was just at the point, let’s say ’round about 1965, when the Japanese were sending in all these transistor radios. So the whole population in the UK had these little transistor radios with earplugs so you could listen to them in bed at night. That’s the point at which the pirates were playing a lot of what we call soul music in the UK. The pirate radio stations were playing a lot of the Motown and Stax Atlantic stuff. As a ten year-old kid in the north of England hearing that stuff for the first time, that kind of got me into the whole soul and R&B thing.

Gradually, as I got older, I started hearing more obscure things out of guys who were two or three years older than me that were playing one-offs which later on became known as Northern soul. When I was about 13 or 14, ’round about 1969/’70, I started sneaking into some of the Northern soul venues, and I suppose that’s when I began to get some more expertise and hear a lot of stuff I hadn’t heard before.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So can you describe what the scene was like in its heyday?

IAN DEWHIRST

The North of England is a very industrial area. Lots of steel foundries, coal mines, huge working class population and these people used to work hard during the week. On the weekend, they really wanted to let their hair down. A good example is the Detroit stuff — again, another industrial city — and somehow that beat transplanted to the North of England and really suited people who worked in the steel foundries in Sheffield. We’d hear stuff like this. This is the archetypal Northern soul record, the template, the one that everything Northern soul would like to base itself on. So let’s give it a listen.

(music: Four Tops – “I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)”)

The ones that people know I’m going to truncate in order to get through the ones you won’t know all the way through. But you get the idea. This is the typical Northern soul template.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So the songs that were big on the scene were similar in style...

(music: Isley Brothers – “This Old Heart Of Mine”)

I’m sure you all know the Motown standards. While we’re doing this, I’d like to play the first song I ever bought in 1967. I’ll tell you more about it, but I like the uptempo stuff, stuff with a beat. This became a surprise hit in the The UK, and I’ll give a free album to anyone who can tell me who the producer was.

(music: Felice Taylor - “I Feel Love Coming On”)

Anyone got any ideas?

Audience Member

Rick Rubin?

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Rick Rubin is not the correct answer.

IAN DEWHIRST

That was actually a very young Barry White. That record came out on a tiny LA label called Bronco. Didn’t mean anything in the States, but for some reason, Radio 1, the mainline BBC station started in 1967, chose that to play.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And who was that?

IAN DEWHIRST

That was Felice Taylor. Now, moving on, we’ve played a couple of Motown songs, and you’ve got the idea I like the uptempo stuff. This is one you’ll all know, but this is the original version. Let’s see if you recognize it.

(music: Gloria Jones – “Tainted Love”)

(music: Soft Cell - "Tainted Love")

I won’t bother playing that, but the difference is the Gloria Jones one sold probably a hundred copies in 1966, and the Soft Cell one... which, incidentally, I have a little part in the history of that because Marc Almond was the cloakroom attendant at the Warehouse in Leeds. And this particular night in 1980, the Q-Tips with Paul Young were playing a gig and it was Young’s birthday, and my boss said, “Why don’t you play some of the old Northern Soul shit you like?” It was the prefect night because the Q-Tips were a soul revival band. So I said yeah, and I pulled out a whole heap of stuff. About 9:45, I put on Gloria Jones “Tainted Love,” and this guy in the cloakroom, who I usually avoided because he was a bit temperamental and used to get in fights with the women over their coats, suddenly he came running up the DJ stand and said, “What’s this record?” So I said, “It’s Gloria Jones ’Tainted Love.’” It was surprising because I’d only ever said hello and nodded to him.

So the next day he came ’round, and I did a cassette of it, he took it off, went down to London, did a session with producer Mike Hedges and six weeks later, brought an acetate back for me to play. I played it and thought, “It sounds like a No. 1.” Sure enough, it was. I guess, it’s a good example of a record that was unknown, undiscovered, unsung as well as people knowing it, then it’s rediscovered 17, 18 years later and consequently sold 34 million. To this day, it’s the longest-running record ever on the Billboard charts, I believe. I guess it’s a good example of wherever music comes from, it’s always valid.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You started DJing as a teenager on the Northern soul scene. How did that happen?

IAN DEWHIRST

It was very lucky. I used to have a Saturday job in a store in Bradford, and I got paid £2 to work on Saturdays. But there was a market stall called Boss Stocks Records, and they bought all the records from an American warehouse and sold them 20 for a £1. So every Saturday I used to go out, spend all my wages on 40 records and play them over the weekend. Over the course of two, three years, I had amassed quite a collection and bit by bit discovered the Northern soul scene and suddenly realized I had quite a few of the records they were after. I took them down to a club called the Central, and I had a very rare record called “Thumb A Ride” by Earl Wright. The DJ, Tony Banks, said, “Please let me play it,” and then he started playing a couple of other things I had, and after about three weeks, they were big records. There was one week when I couldn’t go down and there was a panic. “You’ve got to come down, we need the records!” So, I got a warm-up gig for Tony, and maybe a year down the line, he left, I took over and that led to me DJing at Wigan Casino, Cleethorpes Pier, Sheffield Samantha’s. It was a great time to be a DJ.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You would do three gigs in one night on Fridays?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yes, absolutely. Friday night, I would start off with Leeds Central from about 7:30, then drive over to Huddersfield, do the Starlight about 12:00 to 2:00, then drive over the Pennines and do Sheffield Samantha’s from about 4:00am until 8:00. Then do the same thing on Saturday night and then do an all-dayer on Sunday.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So, these really were all-nighters?

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Can you describe what going out to these parties was like? Where did people travel from to go these all-nighters?

IAN DEWHIRST

It was really phenomenal. I call it the eighth wonder of the world because you had people literally traveling 150 miles at the weekend because the only place they could hear that music was at that particular club. Throughout the North of England, going from one side of the country to the other you’d have Liverpool, Blackpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, over to the East Coast, and everybody really lived for the weekends. The majority of people were in boring industrial jobs, steel foundries or coal mines, but they really lived for the weekends. And the weekends started early on Friday night and finished late on Sunday night.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And how many people typically would be at the parties?

IAN DEWHIRST

Wigan Casino, 2,500/3,000. I think at its height there were probably 150,000 throughout the North divided over a lot of different pubs. Some would be hardcore, they’d be everywhere, and the record collectors, they’d always be there. You had a combination of the record collectors and the DJs and the dancers. It was just a magical scene.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You’ve got a question over here.

VINCE DEGIORGIO

I’ve been dying to ask this of someone who can give me a straight answer. We’ve been talking about Northern soul. Mutual friends of ours have trumpeted the Northern soul scene for years. Can you describe the difference between Northern soul and Motown for those of us who don’t have a clue? Because I personally love the music but don’t have a clue about its differences...

IAN DEWHIRST

It’s simpler than you think. Musically, there really is no difference, Northern soul is Motown: 4/4 beat, dancing strings, catchy hooks, cymbals, tambourines rattling away. All that kind of thing. Motown is Northern soul, but when the Motown became popular and the records started to turn into hits, the DJs started digging deeper. Anyone could buy a Four Tops record or the Isley Brothers or Mary Wells, you could get those in your local shops. But there was a kind of elitism...

Vince Degiorgio

Yeah, I call it being a snob DJ [laughs].

IAN DEWHIRST

A musical snob! We’re not going to go down to the local shop and buy what every Tom, Dick and Harry is buying, we had a bit more flair. You’ve reminded me... When I used to come to the States looking for Northern soul records, nobody in the States understood what Northern Soul was. They would say, “What are you looking for?” At first, I used to say, “Stuff that sounds like Motown.” And they’d always go, “Oldies but goodies.” They missed the point entirely. Eventually, I got wise and I’d go into the shop and they’d go, “What are you looking for?” I’d say, “I’m looking for complete shit. The 10c box.” That’s where you’d find the Northern soul. They had a Four Tops record on an oldies 45 label, that would be in the racks for a buck. But the real gems, the ones worth £500 to £1000, always 10c.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

They were the commercial failures.

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely, and I guess what happened is, because of the success of Motown, you’d have hundreds and hundreds of little independent companies right across the States – from LA, Chicago, especially New York, Detroit, Philadelphia, and they’d all watched the success of Berry Gordy and wanted to have a crack themselves. A little bit like the rap scene now. Anyone in, say, a Midwest town would really love to be Jay-Z, so they’re all going to have a pop. The independent rap movement is all the same as Northern soul. They’re all highly collectible.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And anyone who collects funk records, they’re all knock-offs of James Brown records.

IAN DEWHIRST

The funny thing is, with that stuff, when I used to go over to the States in the mid-’70s I used to leave all that stuff because I was just looking for Northern soul. Now I’m killing myself. I have thousands of pounds worth of funk records, which I didn’t want to hear at the time. Then in the early ’80s, with the rare groove scene in London, I suddenly went, “Oh god! I left a box of that record in the States and it’s worth £100 a piece now.”

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So, as a teenager, you became big on the Northern soul scene as a DJ. What happened for you after that? What did you get into?

IAN DEWHIRST

Well, because I became quite a big DJ at a young age, I was playing Wigan Casino at 17/18-years old, maybe one of the top five DJs at the time, and nobody would sell me records cheaply anymore. I used to deal with all the collectors. I’d buy a record for £2, start playing it and it would immediately be worth £200. So they’d say, “If I sell you this for £2, you’re going to break it. And it’s gonna be huge.” My prices started going up. They’d start asking £50 to £60. I’d say, “But no one knows it.” “That’s not the point. If you play it, everyone will know it.” I got fed up with it. I got in ridiculous bidding battles with people who didn’t know these records, but because of the fact I wanted it, they’d pay anything for it. So I had to go to the States and look for records myself, and that’s what took me to LA in 1976.

I arrived as this very green-behind-the-ears guy from Leeds and started going to Compton and Watts, all those kind of places, where they’d never even heard an English accent and in some cases never even seen a white guy. It was a weird time. But the English accent helped me. I could actually go into a shop in the ghetto, packed with Northern soul stuff, and just walk in and say, “Hey, I’m English, I just want to buy records.” They’d say, “What the fuck is going on?” But it was great. In the first three months in LA, I hit every shop, every warehouse, found a lot of collectors and met a lot of musicians, which I suppose neatly leads me into the next stage, really.

While I was there, I met a lot of musicians in clubs, and one night I was in Beverley Hills listening to the Ritchie Family record, “The Best Disco In Town,” and it occurred to me it was like a medley of all the current disco hits. I thought, “No one has done this with Motown,” and I realized that in England it would be a huge hit. So I said to the guy next to me called Simon Susann, “I can’t understand why no one has done a Motown medley.” He sat up and said, “That’s a great idea!” He said, “We make the record. I know the arranger, what songs shall we use?” Dollar signs in his eyes, and that night we went back to his place and plotted a medley. The next day, we went to see a guy called Don Hockett, who was the arranger for the Four Tops in their ABC period and booked a studio, Ike and Tina Turner’s studio in East LA called Bolic Sound. And then we got the musicians in, Mike Lewis and Laurin Rinder from El Coco, who you probably remember and a lot of the Motown musicians: Eddie ’Bongo’ Brown, Jack Ashford, people like that. So really, from being nowhere, all of a sudden, I’m in Ike and Tina Turner’s studio, surrounded by these incredible musicians. I really don’t like the record anymore, but I guess you should hear a bit of it because it connects with the Northern soul thing.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And what is the name of it?

IAN DEWHIRST

“Uptown Festival” by Shalamar.

(music: Shalamar – “Uptown Festival” / applause)

I guess we’ve heard enough. I actually hate hearing it. Unfortunately that’s...

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You were getting into it, though.

IAN DEWHIRST

I haven’t listened to it for 30 years. The funny thing is, directly after I’d made it, I realized it was meant as a commercial record. But I was actually... Especially in England, we’re very snobby, and I was almost too credible to play my own record. The crazy thing is, I got back to England and they’re all saying, “What have you been up to in L.A?” “Oh, I made a record.” “Which one?” “Shalamar, ’Uptown Festival.’” They’re like, “You did that?!” And I was almost too embarrassed, “Yeah, it’s just a little disco medley thing.” [inaudible comment about Stars On 45] Oh, stop it! Stop it! That’s what I get compared to, Stars on 45? [sarcastically] Thank you. That’s what I tried to avoid [laughs]! I think Stars On 45 came a little bit later, that was actually in 1976. A little bit of history: The reason it got signed to Soul Train was that we took it to Motown and I think it had cost about $5,000, we used real musicians, the string section from the LA Philharmonic. There’s a mistake on the record where Don Hockett, renowned arranger, put an extra four bars in, and we had to get someone to ad lib over it. There’s a lot of odd things about it. We took it to Motown, to a guy called Tom Depierro. He took pity on me because he saw me sitting at the reception with this acetate, and said, “What have you got?” “It’s a Motown record.” He wheeled me in to Suzanne de Passe, who was the head of A&R at the time, who came to listen to it. We thought it would be a shoe-in, we thought Motown would love the record, but they came back a week later and said they couldn’t release it because they didn’t want to upset Diana Ross and other artists by releasing a cover version. We were cheesed off, went to a club called the Candy Box in Beverley Hills, and who should be in there but Don Cornelius who ran Soul Train Records and the TV program. So we saw him the next day, played him the record the next day. He said, “Here’s the deal. I’ll put the track on the show every other week for six weeks.” And he did, and it became a big hit, sold a million records and then closed Soul Train Records shop and launched SOLAR.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Who was actually involved in Shalamar at that point? Was Jody Watley even involved? Because she was a dancer on Soul Train, right?

IAN DEWHIRST

No, they were session musicians. My memory’s a bit shaky, but I believe the male was a guy called Gary from San Francisco, one of those girls was called Andrea, a session vocalist from LA, and the other was a girl called Pat Powdrill, who is known within soul circles. Then what happened... The first record came out on Soul Train and became a huge hit, then they folded Soul Train and started SOLAR Records. It was a new era for Shalamar. They took the name, I think Dick Griffey and Leon Sylvers produced the records, great records. I prefer the others to mine, “Take That to the Bank” and all those. It was good. I created a career, really, from nothing because I gave them the name as well. It was from an old record by The Shalimars, called “Stop and Take A Look at Yourself”, an old Northern soul thing. Interesting little footnote.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You only spent six months in LA?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yeah, my visa ran out and they kicked me out.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So you went back to England and continued DJing? What happened next for you?

IAN DEWHIRST

What happened is... While I’d been in LA, I was listening to a lot of contemporary radio. You had stations like Q102 that were playing all the new releases. At the time, it was really interesting, a lot of interesting stuff going on with jazz and disco was getting much more sophisticated in terms of production. Plus, I was going to clubs, Disco 9000 in LA was the place to go to hear things like “You + Me = Love” by Undisputed Truth, all these brilliant records that were like 11 minutes long and works of art, really state-of-the-art at the time. I came back to the UK looking to be more involved in that and it was the right time again. There was a real grassroots explosion. A lot of people from the Northern soul scene were switching to more contemporary stuff. Very lucky timing because I got back in late ’76 and I was rolling from early ’77, had a couple of residencies, all-dayers. It was all what I would call contemporary disco, jazz-funk. I guess I should play an example. I’m going to play one of my own re-edits on something like this. We played it a bit earlier and it’s such a great record. These are from the days of real musicians, loads of them in the studio. So this is Crown Heights Affair.

(music: Crown Heights Affair – “Dreamin’ A Dream (Ian Dewhirst edit)” / applause)

Nice record, eh? I love it when everything but the kitchen sink is on a track. And I would’ve loved to have been in the studio when that was being cut for sure.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

That was your re-edit of “Dreamin’ A Dream”?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yeah, I never got the tapes but I was allowed to do a re-edit when I did a series called Deep Beats.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So it was a natural extension from the Northern soul stuff into what was going on in the ’70s with disco and the soulful disco stuff as well?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yeah, we were talking a bit earlier about a key record that was the bridge between the old Northern soul sound and the contemporary disco sound. I’m going to play it because it’s my favorite record of all time anyway. But also, from the production point of view of the production and the arrangements... I’m really big on arrangements, and I think we have the audience to appreciate it. This was very much a key record that got a lot of the Northern soul people to listen differently. Northern soul people can be very set in their ways and if it’s after the ’60s they’re not going to listen to it. This record really changed a lot of people’s views and they suddenly thought, “Phew, it’s great.” It’s got everything. It’s got a soulful vocal, brilliant production, brilliant arrangement, brilliant vocalist. What’s not to like?” This is The Carstairs, “It Really Hurts Me Girl.”

(music: The Carstairs - “It Really Hurts Me Girl”/ applause)

So, that was The Carstairs, one of the unsung great groups that disappeared from view pretty much after that record.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You were the second guy in England to have that record?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yes, second guy in England. It took me nine months to find a copy. It was accidental. A guy called Ian Levine happened to be in Miami and heard it on the radio, rang up the radio station and they had literally just got the record, one promotional copy. He spent the best part of two weeks running around trying to find the record. Finally, he did, brought it back to the UK and in that period the record company closed. The only copies that were around were the promos and it turned into a rare record, even though it was only recently released. It was unbelievably rare. Everybody, every single DJ in the UK wanted that record.

There’s a nice little story about how I found it. I was doing an all-dayer in Birmingham and I’d just arrived about six in the afternoon and a couple of the London guys were coming out on their way back to London. One of them was a record dealer, he had this box with him. I said, “Have you got anything worth a looking at?” He said, “We’ve been out all weekend, we just want to get back home. We don’t have the time.” I said, “It won’t take me a minute, I just want a quick look through.” So I flicked through his box and the second-to-last one was The Carstairs. My heart just went like that [makes beating heart gesture), but I had to be cool, I couldn’t let him know I was after it. The one behind it was another mega-rare Dena Barnes, “If You Ever Walk Out Of My Life.“

So I pulled the two records out and said, “Um, wouldn’t mind these two.” A throwaway comment, “if you want to get rid of them,” sort of thing. He said, “I’m just so tired. £15 each.” Bargain of the century! Because I had one of only two in the country and the other guy, Ian Levine, bless him, had too many enemies so he only played about one gig a week, which was Blackpool Mecca. Consequently, because I was the only other guy who had the record, all of my bookings went up 400%. It was a great record to champion. I think we have a question.

ANDREW MASON

I was just wondering if you ever got in touch with The Carstairs themselves or if they themselves were ever aware of the impact their record had.

IAN DEWHIRST

As a matter of fact, there’s a mini-industry in the North of England with promoters who are digging out these original groups. There is actually... Well, the performance has turned legendary. They did actually get the Carstairs back together. The lead vocalist, a guy called Cleveland Horne, unfortunately, has passed away now, but it’s there on Youtube if you want to see them actually performing the song live.

That’s one of the things about Northern soul. Quite often, you’ll have people who were really cult heroes in the UK like JJ Barnes, for instance, who had two or three huge records, but he didn’t know. He was in Detroit. He had no idea that he had a fanbase in the UK. When they finally brought him over, he played Keighley Variety Club. I was DJing that night, and you could just tell his mind was blown because everyone in the audience knew the lyrics to his song. He came on and started with a song called “Please Let Me In” and before he could even get to singing, the 3/400 people there started singing the song, and he just broke down. He’s like, “What? I’ve been in obscurity in Detroit and all these kids know the song backward.” It’s really got a lot of nice things about it and one of the nicest is the fact a lot of these guys made these records, disappeared, and then 15, 20 years later turned up in the UK and become big all over again.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

The scene was based on exclusivity of the record selection, but they’re concise songs. So it’s different from what some people’s interpretations are of what mixing is or you play in a set are. How did you pace it in terms of tempo? You didn’t mix the records, you just played them, so it was about selection.

IAN DEWHIRST

There was this period up to 1976 when the two genres, Northern soul and what we call now term modern soul. Modern soul was contemporary stuff. You had a period when ’60s Northern soul was being played alongside “Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel” by Tavares, which sounds crazy, but the disco stuff was the same tempo as Northern soul.

Another record that illustrates how the Northern scene was progressing was this one, which came out on a tiny New York label called Strata East by someone who was basically a poet with a bunch of jazz musicians, but this actually became the biggest Northern soul record of its time.

(music: Gil Scott-Heron – “The Bottle” / applause)

It’s an interesting parallel because the North of England got that particular track in early 1973, but there were probably more parallels between the Northern soul scene and the New York underground disco scene because the tempo of the records was kind of the same. A lot of the disco stuff was probably — I’m not too good on BPMs — maybe about 120 up to 126, so it did fit quite nicely with the Northern thing. Then the scene split and you had the die-hard Northern soul fans, who considered it a heresy to play anything from the ’70s, and they gravitated to the clubs that would just play what we call vintage Northern soul. But the more progressive of the DJs and the fans moved along quite happily. They still liked the Northern soul, but they were opening up to newer stuff.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

That included yourself.

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Something like “The Bottle” was a Northern soul hit, but it’s also a jazz-funk record. It’s also a rare groove sorta thing.

IAN DEWHIRST

The funny thing about that is... I take quite a bit of pride in the fact that the Northern soul scene was the only scene in England playing that record as an import when it came out. It wasn’t really championed in the South. So when anyone has a go at Northern soul as being a load of cloth-caps, dancing in barns, actually we were the guys who found Gil-Scott Heron, George Benson. We were on the cutting edge. Whatever was happening in contemporary New York, it would also be happening in the North of England at that time.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Do you want to tell us more about the progression of the different genres? With the Mastercuts series, you broke down all these genres with the essential building blocks of each one.

IAN DEWHIRST

That series began in 1990, and by that point, I’d accumulated 20 years of DJing across a whole number of scenes: Northern scene, disco scene, jazz-funk scene. Then when mixing broke in England, round about ’79, all the early mixing, the Salsoul stuff, the Prelude stuff from New York in the late ’70s and early ’80s, even the early hip-hop and early house. And when it got to 1990, the CD was becoming really popular at that point, but there weren’t many decent compilations out there, especially not genre-based ones.

I was a bit down on my luck at the time, really looking for an idea, and I thought, “I’ve got 38,000 records, I’ve got this incredible resource from having been a DJ for the last 20 years, let me fiddle around, let me mess about. How would I do it if I wanted to concentrate on different genres? Classic mellow for the slow stuff, jazz-funk obviously for the jazz-funk, disco, Salsoul, funk, P-funk, electro.”

I suddenly realized it was quite easy because I had all the records. I literally spent the best part of three weeks going through my collection, pulling out different genres, putting them into piles, thinking about the order that I wanted, then trying to get the balance right. In a way, the series was designed to educate, but also not put people off. The balance of the albums was thought about carefully.

So, for instance, Jazz Funk Vol.1, if I can locate it [looks through CDs], kicks off with “Expansions” by Lonnie Liston-Smith, which is pretty much the pinnacle of jazz-funk. “Always There” by Ronnie Laws, another staple; “The Bottle,” Gil Scott-Heron, as you said, big on the rare groove scene and generally well-known in the ’80s, much better than in the ’70s. Then you’ve got Donald Byrd, Wilton Felder, Johnny Hammond, Eddie Henderson, Harvey Mason, Dizzy Gillespie. All pretty solid names. Everybody that bought this album liked it and it ended up doing 200,000, which, for a non-TV compilation is pretty incredible.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

We would go the store and see these compilations and it really was educational. Before you got deeper into DJing and collecting, you’d see these things, and it would lay the building blocks for you, all these different genres. And it also hooked you because you thought you had to get the originals as well. It turned you on as far as information but quickly led to quickly thinning pockets.

IAN DEWHIRST

Yes, it’s my fault. The funny thing is, when I started putting them out, I had the UK record dealers saying, “You killed our market.” But the opposite happened. People bought the CDs, realized they didn’t have the Dizzy Gillespie on 12" and the prices rocketed. So it did what it was intended to do. I think I’ve been in the good position of utilizing my experience and trying to pass it on for the benefit of people who weren’t around in the early ’70s or mid-’70s in any particular period. What these albums were designed to do — and, thank the lord, they managed to achieve it — was, exactly as you say, provide a foundation for people who weren’t really sure what jazz-funk was about. But if they’re going to buy one, buy Classic Jazz-funk 1, and if they had a good time with that, it made them check out other areas. That was the point of pushing the brand name.

I also did these on vinyl with metallic Pantone sleeves and the logo was embossed on the vinyl. They were DJ friendly, only three tracks per side so you’ve got really good fidelity. Tried to deliver them up, I suppose, like an expensive box of chocolates, but more sort of musical kind of selection. And eventually we managed to get 50 of them out there. It was really kind of a career high point in a way.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Say, for some of these folks who might get an opportunity to have some tracks licensed for different compilations from somebody like yourself, what sort of wisdom can you impart to them? You’ve been on one side of it, but also what can you tell them about the process?

IAN DEWHIRST

Right. OK. I think from some of the lectures that I’ve been listening to, the music business never really changes, right? You must have legal representation, OK? That’s the number one piece of advice I could give anyone because even if the formats change, the fact of the matter is that the... And I hate to say it, the music business is steeped in the traditions of ripping off the artist, to be quite honest. If not ripping off, then certainly taking advantage of them.

I suppose that the key thing really is it’s always a bit of a bargaining process. If you’re an aspiring young musician, it must seem very, very attractive to want to sign to a major record label. And there’s swings and roundabouts involved in that. They might give you a couple of hundred thousand quid, and you think, “Oh, lovely! I won’t have to struggle anymore. I can buy what I want, and all the rest of it.” You will pay that back, make no mistake, and the rest, OK? Because you’ll get limos delivered to your house. You’ll be taken to this party, that party, and it’s all chargeable against you.

I think one of the things that is probably good about what’s happening in the music business at the moment is the fact that I think it’s going to empower artists, the fact that they can be more in charge of their own destinies in terms of kind of the revolution that’s going on at the moment. Now, theoretically, you don’t really need a record company. You can actually bypass that.

From a licensing point of view, that’s really a whole other discussion really. It’s not easy to license a lot of these tracks. Also, we have a declining market at the moment, which hopefully has bottomed out, and which hopefully the CD will hold. But the business models for digital haven’t really been thought through yet. I’d like to see a digital version of Mastercuts.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

I think that’s what valuable even with the lectures we’ve done in these two weeks is putting things in context. Because all this music is available, in theory. That's the job that these compilations do, as well as these discussions: Putting everything in context, and helping understand where they come from and where the connections are. To me, that’s invaluable.

IAN DEWHIRST

I think so too. All I can do as a compiler is... There are all kinds of different markets these days because CD sales aren’t what they used to be – and by the way, I’ve just given the guys a two-hour radio show, which is exclusive to Red Bull Music Academy, you can hear the Vintage Groove Show, which has a lot of key tracks from different genres – these days, you have to design compilations to sell in supermarkets as well. In the old days, there used to be lots of indie shops, Virgin and HMV, but these days it’s not enough.

So you have to target your compilations to a wider audience, so it’s always a balancing act. For instance, if I was going to do a funk one, I’d be going down more Keb Darge territory, putting lots of rare stuff on. But someone casually purchasing one in a supermarket has to know X amount of tracks. So this is a fairly commercial proposition, so I try to balance it with, for instance, Average White Band “Pick Up The Pieces,” Labelle “Lady Marmalade,” Sly & the Family Stone “Family Affair,” Curtis Mayfield “Freddie’s Dead” and intersperse those with some of the lesser known ones. Touch wood, it seems to be working.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What sort of managing work as an A&R shaped your sensibilities, because in the ’80s you were with Capitol as well, right?

IAN DEWHIRST

Yes, I really dovetailed into A&R. I started off as a promotions guy doing club promotion. When I moved to London, I got a gig with EMI. EMI was a very staid company, had no presence in the clubs at all, and they needed to wheel someone in to start promoting properly. So that’s basically what I did. As a result of that, because I was out and about six nights a week, they used to pay me to go out, that’s how good the job was.

The first month at EMI, I was a bit worried about submitting expenses, so I asked around to see how much I could claim. They said, “Whatever you spend.” So I added it all up and it came to £500. I’ve been here four weeks and I’m submitting a claim for £500 expenses so I was a bit nervous and passed the expense form through. About one hour later there’s a shout from the boss’s office, “Dewhirst, get your ass in here now and shut the door.” I thought, “Oh no, I’m going to get my ass kicked.” He held the expense sheet up and said, “What the hell is this?” I said, “Look, I’m sorry, I’m new to the job, but I have to go out six nights a week.” He said, “It should be three times this much. I don’t think you’re doing your job properly unless it’s £1,500 a month.” Oh, glory days! [laughs] I couldn’t spend it all. It was ridiculous. I was deliberately staying in hotels, buying drinks for whole clubs, but as a result of that, I was in and out of studios all the time and very connected. I had a network of DJs then.

The Pet Shop Boys — I presume most of you have probably heard of — how they came to be signed to EMI was literally... I knew the original version, the Bobby O version of “West End Girls” because it was being played in Ibiza back then. Also the record came out for about half a second in the UK. It came out on Epic, and then all of a sudden it disappeared and nobody quite knew what happened. But I had a copy of it and I went to Ibiza, heard it over there, came back and started hammering the record. In that time, the Pet Shop Boys had been dropped by Epic.

I just happened to be in the publicist’s, the PR girl’s office, and I saw a cassette on the desk saying Pet Shop Boys and “West End Girls.” Of course, I’m like, we already have a version of “West End Girls.” So I said to Susie, the girl, “What is this?” She said, “It’s a different version.” So I said, “Oh, can I hear it?” I put it on, and I thought, “That’s a number one record.” And I immediately ran through to the A&R department and said, “We’ve got to sign this band.” And they all looked at me like, you know, crazy. And then they heard the track, and then the rest is kind of history. “West End Girls,” I was also promoting it, so I made sure that everything worked nicely for that.

Also, jumping on a bit, when I worked for Island, a good example is I signed a group called The Wild Bunch, which was very much kind of the most credible rap act in the UK at the time, mainly through Nellee Hooper. Nellee Hooper was very, very serious, intense young guy that really knew his stuff. He insisted, when we did the deal, insisted Howie B. had to do the mastering. He wanted to go to New York to supervise it, and although The Wild Bunch releases, for 4th & B’Way, they were too ahead of their time. That was the problem. They were about two years ahead of the time, but the group then mutated into Massive Attack, Soul II Soul. Nellee Hooper’s gone on to be an international producer, U2, Madonna, etc. All these things happened very organically.

I like to think, I mean I didn’t even know I was going to be in Toronto til what, early last week. That’s the way I like to play it. If you’re fairly honest and passionate about what you do — and passion is a major thing I’ve witnessed here all week — then you can’t go far wrong. I could do with doing a bit better financially, but I’m very happy with what I do.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

In ’03 you were in charge of the Salsoul reissues, or was that earlier?

IAN DEWHIRST

A couple of things to put things in context... For five years I ran a company called Simply Vinyl, which reissued lots of rock and pop classics on 180gm vinyl. I did about 500 releases for them, and when that market started slowing down I went back to my first love, which is really Salsoul, which is the archetypical number one disco label of all time. I repackaged the series and did somewhere around 35 CD releases, reissued all the 12"s again. It’s nice to be involved with stuff I was buying 30 years previously.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Getting back to aesthetics, what was it about that catalog that stood out to you in terms of songwriting, arranging, everything you valued in a song?

IAN DEWHIRST

I guess the best thing to do is demonstrate why I got into the business in the first place. A lot of it is down to the influence of the songs you hear as you’re growing up. It’s something I’d like people to really focus on. The art of arranging has gotten very lazy in the last few years. It’s very easy to have a computer and a keyboard and imagine you can play everything, but you’re missing an awful lot of the nuances of the individual instruments and clever arranging. So, if it’s okay with you guys, I’d like to play a couple of songs to illustrate the point. This is a pretty good example of top, top songwriting and arrangement prowess. You won’t get any get better than this, frankly. This is 1963/’64, Brill Building in New York, Burt Bacharach, Hal David and Dionne Warwick.

(music: Dionne Warwick – “Walk on By” / applause)

I think you probably get the drift there. The beauty of that period in time was there was a building in New York called the Brill Building. Musicians would literally go in at 9 o’clock in the morning, sit down with a chair and a piano and they’d have to create something from that. I quite like the simplicity of that kind of thing. If they didn’t get a hit record, they weren’t going to eat. It was almost as simple as that. Again, to demonstrate arrangements don’t have to be over-complicated. You can do a fantastic arrangement with very few instruments as long as you’ve got the right vocalist.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What about that original version of “Walk on By” really stood out for you arrangement-wise?

IAN DEWHIRST

I love everything Dionne Warwick has ever done. I never get sick... Another example, just while we’re talking, of a new irresistible arrangement and just a great song.

(music: Dionne Warwick - “Do You Know The Way To San Jose”)

It’s a very good example of a fantastic lyric really put with a great arrangement. The lyrics of that are actually about kids going to LA looking for stardom and it’s just lyrically, how David wrote the lyrics. Burt Bacharach did the music. Just the sheer poetry of his lines, “And all the stars that never were are parking cars and pumping gas.” I mean, that’s poetry. That’s just absolutely beautiful.

Another example, and I’ve fallen in love with this record again, mainly because of the string arrangements, but it’d be nice to share it with you, see what you think.

(music: Bobbie Gentry - “Ode To Billie Joe” / applause)

Beautiful. A little bit of everything there. You’ve actually got social commentary. I mean, that song’s actually about an illegal abortion, right? And very, very simple instrumentation, but deadly effective arrangement and strings.

I did that, basically I’m a kind of a soul, black music aficionado, but really it doesn’t matter what areas of music you come from. Bobbie Gentry is a country western singer. I’ve got other examples, which unfortunately I haven’t got time to play, but I’ve become less bothered about particular genres. If music’s good, it’s good.

I’d like to give you another example. I particularly like this record because it’s got a stoner mentality about it. Also, it’s another perfect example of the fusion between the band War, very early on in their career, who were black and Hispanic musicians, and Eric Burdon from Newcastle in the UK, who was a ’60s rock star with The Animals. Another example of a great arrangement, lovely lyrics and a general nice ambiance about it. This is “Spill The Wine.”

(music: Eric Burdon & War - “Spill the Wine” / applause)

[laughs] A stoner anthem. You don’t have to think too much about the lyrics on that. I think Eric had been living in San Francisco at the time and done a bit of experimenting. A very happy accident for him that he ended up in LA and discovered War. I remember them coming over to play the Isle of Wight festival and Roy Carr from New Musical Express saying they were the greatest band he’d ever seen in his entire life. They were just there for a little while and then they moved on. I guess that’s the beauty of music. A lot of things happen organically and that’s a good example of two different things meshing really beautifully.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Do you want to talk a little bit about the Salsoul label?

IAN DEWHIRST

I’d love to. I love to talk about Salsoul.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What made it unique for you? What really stood out? It’s a legendary label but maybe you could play one or two things.

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely. Salsoul, I think, had that New York ethic. The guys were around in the Latin music business from the mid-’60s, but what I really liked about Salsoul was they had very strong A&R, artist and repertoire. They were very serious about what they did and used people at the top of the game. So the majority of the recordings were done at Sigma Sound in Philadelphia using the Salsoul Orchestra, who were also MFSB used by Gamble and Huff. All those old O’Jays records, Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes, Billy Paul, it was essentially the same musicians with Salsoul.

It was a fantastic age and also the beginning of the 12" era when DJs suddenly started getting very, very, very creative. I guess a good example is this particular one. This is the first ever commercially released 12" record, I believe. It was on the edit block for a couple of months with really a cult hero of mixing called Walter Gibbons. Walter was a very spiritual, deep guy who pretty much invented the art of 12" mixing, along with Tom Moulton, of course. Tom Moulton is probably much more on the more melodic, sweeter side of mixing. Walter was a complete headcase, which is the best way I can put it in the nicest possible way. This is an outstanding example of what Salsoul’s all about. This is the Walter Gibbons mix of “Ten Percent” by Double Exposure.

(music: Double Exposure – “Ten Per Cent (Walter Gibbons mix)”)

One of the problems with Salsoul records is the average length of the mix is generally ten minutes. But here’s another example, almost going to the other end of the spectrum. One of the key people at Salsoul was a guy called Vincent Montana Jr, a vibe player, but also a very gifted arranger. You see, I keep swinging back to this arrangement theme all the time. This is a good example: top rate vocalist Loleatta Holloway, Vincent Montana arrangement, this is a thing of pure beauty. This is “Run Away.”

(music: Loleatta Holloway – “Run Away” / applause)

Some nice free-form vibes playing there.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

That’s pretty much a masterpiece, I think.

IAN DEWHIRST

Absolutely.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Anyone got any questions at this point?

AUDIENCE MEMBER

Speaking about great sounds, did you forget Phil Spector or do you not like him?

IAN DEWHIRST:

Right, OK, just to show you [goes through computer]. For the youngsters in here, no, I didn’t forget him. I have a playlist of about eight hours in here and not enough time. But I’m going to squeeze this one in. It’s two minutes. The key thing about this is this track was done — you probably know better than I do — on two two-track recorders. Phil Spector has been having a few personal problems just lately, but this is from his heyday. It is one of the greatest records of all time. Listen to the arrangement and the general structure of the record.

(music: Righteous Brothers – “You’ve Lost That Loving Feeling”)

It’s not bad for two two-track tape recorders.

[applause]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Anything you want to conclude with?

IAN DEWHIRST

As usual, I’m spoilt for choice. I need to go the toilet as well and I guess everyone wants something to eat. Because there’s a lot of producers here. We’ve done a lot on arrangements and song structures and so on. I guess it was between two records, but I’m a big fan of mixes. This, in my opinion, is probably the best mix of all time. I leave you with this one which is — I hate to say it because he’s got his fans and his detractors — but this is Larry Levan’s mix of Gwen Guthrie’s “Seventh Heaven.” It’s got some incredible dynamics in it and should really be a template for any mixers in my opinion.

(music: Gwen Guthrie – “Seventh Heaven (Larry Levan remix)”)

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So at this point, I just want to say thank you to Ian for sharing his thoughts and his music. Any words in conclusion?

Ian Dewhirst

It’s always a pleasure DJing to an audience that can’t get away [laughs]. But it’s been an absolute pleasure, I wish the Red Bull Academy every success, it’s been a first class experience. I’d like to thank you all for being so welcoming. Thank you.

[applause]