Jlin

Chal Ravens

On the couch with me now is an artist of a most unusual kind. She has released an EP and two albums, soon to be three, since 2015.

Jlin

Yes.

Chal Ravens

And writers like myself still don’t really have a clue what to call what she does. She is inarguably one of the most distinct voices in electronic music right now. Let’s welcome Jlin.

Jlin

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys for coming.

Chal Ravens

I think we’re going to start with a track. We’re going to start with the track that was really the track that launched you. It’s called “Erotic Heat”, and it was on a compilation called Bangs & Works Volume Two which, along with Volume One, was pretty instrumental in exposing people to footwork outside of Chicago, it came out on Planet Mu in 2011.

Jlin

Right, right, right.

(music: Jlin – “Erotic Heat”)

Jlin

Thank you. Thank you.

Chal Ravens

It’s a strong start, really. So that record was on a Chicago footwork compilation, but you have spent most of the last three years trying to explain to people that you don’t make footwork.

Jlin

Yeah.

Chal Ravens

One word that you have used to describe your music previously is naked.

Jlin

Yes. Naked, vulnerable, because when I create, that’s the space that I’m creating from, I’m creating from a very vulnerable state, from the core of my being, and then presenting it into the rest of you guys to hear. It is very naked and it’s raw and that’s why I described it as naked like that, yeah.

Chal Ravens

Especially with dance music, with electronic music, there can be such an urge to categorize and put things in genres and sub-genres.

Jlin

Right, for sure. Oh yeah. [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

And you were, perhaps, always aware that you didn’t want to end up in that?

Jlin

Yeah. I created from a space where, like I said, I’m just creating. I love to compose music. A lot of times, I do understand when a journalist is writing or you have writers and people interviewing you, for reference purposes, you’ll put something into a category. I definitely get that, but then what I started to realize is that writers would just start repeating what they heard another publication say. And so I got tired of hearing “Jlin, steel mill, and footwork” in the same... It just got aggravating.

So I literally, one day, I tweeted out and said, “Please, somebody write something different.” Because I get tired of hearing this. I’m so much more than that. Then when Black Origami came out, that really was an album that started to challenge the writer. This actually told me, was the journalist even actually really listening? Because at that point, it really got to the point where it was like, were are you actually listening or did you just hear a publication say “Jlin footwork” and then you just started repeating it? It became like Chinese telephones after a while. I was just like, Jesus. I mean, is this what we’ve come to with writing?

Chal Ravens

We love to repeat each other. Just recycle that stuff.

Jlin

It just, you know. So I ended up having to really explain myself. The worst thing that’s ever happened to me, journalism-wise, is when I had a journalist come up to me and he wanted to interview me. It was a Skype call and he’s like, “So your name is Jlin?” And I’m like, “Yes.” And he’s like, “So what do you do? You rap?” And I say, “Oh, this interview’s over.” So I ran back and I told my label, “You guys, hey, please make sure the person at least knows what I do because this isn’t cool.” It’s not cool. It’s already bad enough I’m getting pigeonholed. Now I have to deal with somebody who doesn’t even know what it is that I do? I said, “I can’t do that.” We can’t work like that, you know? Yeah.

Chal Ravens

So you don’t rap?

Jlin

No, I don’t rap. [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

Scratch that out. So let’s just go back to “Erotic Heat,” that came out in 2011.

Jlin

Yeah, yeah.

Chal Ravens

Did you make it a little bit before that, I guess?

Jlin

Yeah. I made it actually before that. I made “Erotic Heat” at the end of... I think it was actually right at the end of 2009, early 2010.

Chal Ravens

Could you sort of set the scene for us in terms of where you were when you made it?

Jlin

I was actually terrified when I made it because it had... I was working on making footwork tracks, but then I remember it was a turning point in my career when I had sampled Teena Marie’s “Portuguese Love.” Like I always do, I had my mom come in and sit on the end of my bed. I do this to this day, and she listens to the track I made. She’s always the first person to listen. And so what happened was I had done this track where I sample Teena Marie, and she’s like, “It sounds good, but what do you sound like? I know what Teena Marie sounds like, but what do you sound like?”

And I was like, you know, that’s a hell of a good question. What do I sound like? I didn’t know myself. So that’s when “Erotic Heat” came out. Now, the thing about it was at that time, because I was thinking that I was so embedded into footwork, I’m like, this isn’t going to be acceptable because it doesn’t even sound like a footwork track. And I was scared to put it out, but then I remember putting it on Facebookm where you could upload videos. And I put it up there and I got such a response to it. One of the responses was Mike Paradinas, who said, “I have to have this on this compilation. It is imperative that this is on there. This has to be on this compilation.” So that’s how it started.

Chal Ravens

And when you say it didn’t sound like footwork, I mean specifically, it’s the lack of samples?

Jlin

It was the lack of, no, it was the way that I was... Because there are samples in it, but it was the way that it was... Chicago footwork has such a distinct sound. You know it when you hear it. There’s the repetitiveness of the way that the track is moving. Most tracks are usually at 160, it was like a solid tempo of 160. And so it’s like you know it when you hear it. “Erotic Heat” was just so all over the place. It was just like, well, where does this go into this type of a thing? Yeah.

Chal Ravens

And another thing separating you from the footwork thing – you’re not from Chicago?

Jlin

No, I’m not from Chicago. I’m from Indiana. A lot of people think that I’m from Chicago because, you know, but I’m not. I’m from Indiana, I’m an hour outside.

Chal Ravens

A town called Gary?

Jlin

Yeah, I’m from Gary.

Chal Ravens

Not the only prominent musician from Gary, Indiana.

Jlin

No.

Chal Ravens

Anyone? Michael Jackson?

Jlin

Right, yeah.

Chal Ravens

Freddie Gibbs also.

Jlin

Yeah, Freddie Gibbs as well, yeah.

Chal Ravens

Can you just tell us, what’s Gary like?

Jlin

Gary, it’s an industrial town. As a matter of fact, I worked in the steel mill myself for four years. It’s an industrial town, small town, I think a population of... it’s gone down tremendously. I think it’s about maybe 80,000 now. So it’s just a small town. For me, obviously, it’s always been home for me. I was born and raised there. I still live in the same house that I grew up in. I’m still at home. So when people ask me what do I do, I usually just tell them I’m a professional bum. That’s always been home for me. I love home and I just love being there when I’m not on the road.

Chal Ravens

So what happened was that Rick Owens, the fashion designer, used that track in his fashion show a few years later. Yeah?

Jlin

Yeah, in 2013.

Chal Ravens

And that kicked off a pretty hectic period for you.

Jlin

Yeah. Rick Owens got the train started.

Chal Ravens

So just to be clear, what were you doing in that period between 2011 and 2014? You were just making tracks?

Jlin

Yeah, I was just... I have to compose like I have to breathe. I just love doing it. So during that time, yeah, I was working. I had just started working at the steel mill in 2012. I just got hired, so I was working. I had just crossed my probation period at the job, and so I was working on that. And then all of a sudden, Rick Owens just came out of nowhere and hit my label up. And then my label introduced us, and then he told me what he wanted me to do. It hadn’t dawned on me who he was until, I think I was getting off midnights at work, and I laid down and I thought about. And I was like, wait a minute, Rick Owens, Adidas Rick Owens? I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” So I went to look it up and it turns out I’m like, “Oh my God, yeah, this is that same guy.” So I was like, yeah.

As fast as the moment came that I was excited was as fast as it left, because I was like, I want to put the work into this. And I told him – because he wanted me to remix it, and I was like, “I’m not remixing ‘Erotic Heat’. I’ll remake it though,” and so I did. There’s a 13-minute version of Erotic Heat. If you come to the 4D show, you’ll hear it because that’s the last track I’m closing with.

Chal Ravens

So after that point you kind of blew up – because by the end of 2015, your debut album had come out, which was in many, many end of year lists. I think it was The Wire’s number one album of that year. Your track, “Expand”, was the New York Times’ number eight track of that year.

Jlin

I was at work when that happened.

Chal Ravens

You were at work?

Jlin

I was at work, like I had everybody calling me, and I was at work. I was literally ... My mom’s like, “You’re in the New York Times and you’re number eight.” I think I was right under Missy Elliott’s “I’m Better,” if I’m not mistaken.

Chal Ravens

That makes sense.

Jlin

Then I think I was in between her and Madonna, between those. It was the craziest thing. It was like, wow, I couldn’t... And Holly was in Mexico, and I had to call her and tell her.

Chal Ravens

Right, the track is a collaboration with Holly Herndon.

Jlin

Yeah. So I called Holly from work and I’m like, “Yo, we’re in the New York Times,” and she’s like, “Shut up.” And I’m like, “No, I’m serious.” She’s like, “Send me the link right now.” So I’m like, “OK.” So I sent it to her and she was like, “That’s bizarre.” Because that was an experiment for us. We literally did that track as an experiment. That’s how we met. She heard “Erotic Heat” and she’s like, “Hey, I’m gonna just shoot you some stems and you just do what you want to do with them.” And next thing I know, “Expand” came out. And we were just doing it for fun. We didn’t know it would go to the extent that it did.

Chal Ravens

So the album is Dark Energy. I’m not going to play that track. We might come back to some Holly Herndon. I’m gonna play my personal favorite. Why not?

Jlin

[Looking at CDJs] Oh boy.

Chal Ravens

This is called “Guantanamo.” ‘Cause I thought we should just go hard.

(music: Jlin – “Guantanamo”)

Jlin

[Laughs] I’m sorry, but every time you guys clap, I laugh because for me, it’s so nice. First of all, let me just say thank you guys for coming. It’s so nice when a person appreciates your work, and I’m happy that you guys took the time out today to come and see me have this chat. I just wanted to tell you guys thank you first before we go any further. Thank you, guys.

Chal Ravens

Maybe we were worried that you’d be in a bit food coma. So, “Guantanamo.”

Jlin

Yeah. Like if you go to sleep, I will not judge you because these are comfy couches. So I will not judge you at all. I see some of y’all got your shoes off, and I think that’s really smart. If it were me up here and I could be back there at the same time, I’d be asleep. So I’m just saying firsthand.

Chal Ravens

So, I said at the beginning that us copycat writers are really struggling to think of some good words. I mean, obviously footwork is the kind of basic root here somewhere, but quite often I think your tracks just feel like they’re just kind of sui generis. They come out of nowhere. I guess comparisons are rarely invoked for you, but at the same time, everybody listens to music growing up. What did you like when you were a kid?

Jlin

When I was a kid, I loved Sade. I love Sade. Yeah. Sade is my favorite artist in the world. So that’s what I grew up listening to. I grew up listening to Phoebe Snow and Phyllis Hyman, and Anita Baker, Rachelle Ferrell. It’s so funny because when I went and got to my high school years, I hit the whole Evanescence [thing] and the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. It was just such a ...

Chal Ravens

I think we’re the same age.

Jlin

Yeah. I know it’s probably funny, but I thought Britney Spears’ “Toxic” song was the shit when I first heard it. Yeah. It was like, “That’s my jam.”

Chal Ravens

Did you play any instruments?

Jlin

No. I had exactly two piano lessons, but then I later discovered that math and music are exactly the same. And that’s something that Herbie Hancock talks about quite a bit. And so I discovered they really are exactly the same. Even when I’m sitting down to write music now, it’s when I can’t figure something out or if I’m trying to... I’ve just kind of learned that they’re the same language, but I think I had to grow into that. It’s just one of those things. That was more of a learning experience over time.

Chal Ravens

And you studied maths?

Jlin

Yeah, at least that’s how it started. And then later, I had dropped out and instead of going to a class like I was supposed to be doing, I used to go to the library and make music. And that’s how this all actually got started. But the weird thing is before I would start making music, I used to go to my university early in the morning, at like 6 o’clock in the morning, and I would just work out calculus problems on the board when nobody was there. I used to just do this, do this for at least maybe three or four hours. And then I would go to the library and do music for the rest of the day, which was really weird. I don’t know what was going on at that time in my head.

Chal Ravens

So over time you’ve kind of branched away from the footwork connection. But I’m interested in when you first encountered it, what was your relationship with Chicago footwork then?

Jlin

I was four when I first heard it. I was four years old and I’d never heard anything like it. So you know, when you hear something that you feel is amazing and you never heard anything like it, you’re trying to find more of it, as much as you can. That became something I used to listen to all the time. And then when I was in high school, we ended up doing the talent show that had, it was actually a footwork routine, a dance routine. We didn’t end up doing the routine though, but I just never forgot that sound. It just stuck with me. It was one of those things. It stood out because I had never heard anything like it before. Yeah.

Chal Ravens

And then did you start getting involved and going to Chicago, dancing?

Jlin

No. [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

No? So you were always actually…

Jlin

You know what’s so funny? This is the saddest thing ever, and I know people are going to be like, “J, that is an abomination.” But I have never been to Chicago footwork battle ever. And they’re like, “But you live right in Indiana. There is no excuse for that.” And I’m like, “Actually there is.” I used to work like 96 hours a week. So when I was working in the steel mill, I used to work around the clock. And so it was just, I never really... It’s not that I didn’t want to, I just never... My timing was just so crazy. But it’s funny though, because I had a lot of Chicago footworkers that actually performed with me at the Pitchfork show. When we were in Chicago, they were on the show with me the same time, which I was very honored by because that was such a last minute thing. When that happened a lot of people were like, “Was that planned?” I’m like, “No, it wasn’t.” I was honored that they would be willing to do that for my show.

Chal Ravens

Are there particular footwork producers who you feel more inline with? It doesn’t all sound the same, obviously.

Jlin

Yeah. For sure. You have the pioneers. You have RP Boo, you have Rashad, you have Clent, you have Traxman, and Deeon. You have all these different producers, and all the guys that pioneered. I honestly have to say, the person that I felt the most in connection with, even though he’s passed away now, was probably Rashad. Because Rashad had no limitation on what he would do or what he would try musically. I really liked that he never stayed in a box. He was trailblazing up until he passed away. It was amazing to witness, actually.

Chal Ravens

Footwork obviously can be a very functional music. Footwork itself is a dance, but I think with your music, and thinking of your story, often it provides quite a personal listening experience. I listen to it on headphones, it’s a very one-on-one relationship in some ways. I wanted to ask you if there’s any particular music that you have had that very personal communion with, that very one-on-one relationship?

Jlin

Yes, recently Philip Glass. I know that’s probably like... I just heard the reactions from the audience when I said Philip Glass, I’m sure they were like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. We just did a 180.” If you guys ever get a chance, if you haven’t done it already, one of the most genius albums I’ve ever heard was Philip Glass’ for the movie The Hours. That is a classic. I was just blown away, honestly.

Another person who I feel like I can really connect with as well, musically, when I hear their music – and her personality as well – is Eartha Kitt. I really feel that I can definitely connect. I always said if I can make my music dance like Eartha Kitt, I think I’d be batting a thousand.

Chal Ravens

I wanted play a little bit of a track, one of the few tracks that you’ve ever explicitly cited as an influence, and it’s a Sade track. I might not play all of it, but let’s just hear a little bit of this Sade track, and you can say why it might be your favorite.

Jlin

Oh.

(music: Sade – “Love Is Stronger Than Pride”)

Chal Ravens

We should probably clap for Sade. I was thinking I should just play half of that, but where would you even stop that track?

Jlin

I was about to say, I probably would have cried if you stopped in the middle.

Chal Ravens

Yeah, so would I. Tell me why that track might speak to you.

Jlin

Because for me that track is so complex in so many ways, and there’s such a beauty to it, to its complexity. To me, if you’re not somebody that listens to... you could listen to one type of a genre... I think Sade is so ahead of her time. From her first album in ‘84, Diamond Life, to now – she was 10 years ahead when she started. I feel like she’s a classic. She is such a standalone. I really, musically, for me, I try to also emulate that, being a standalone. Having that own identity. You know Sade when you hear Sade. You can hear a riff or 30 seconds of a song, and you know that’s Sade, and I try to emulate the same thing, which is not easy.

It’s so easy to be trendy, it’s hard as hell to be authentic though. That’s what a lot of artists... That separates an artist who’s a classic from an artist that’s just gonna fall off as a trend, who just has their 15 minutes of fame. Unfortunately, on the radio now, you’re listening to five artists and out of five different artists, four songs probably have the same producer. Which, to me, it’s a state of hypnosis now. I don’t even know what’s new anymore. When people ask me about different artists and they’re like, “Have you heard this?” Or “Have you heard that?” I’m like, “No,” because it’s kind of hard listening to the same thing.

Even when I’m in a club setting or a festival setting, and I’m walking in, and I’ve heard the same four on the floor beat for the past... it’s been five artists who’ve played, and four of them have played that same rhythm. Then I’ll come in and I’ll play behind them, and they’re like, “This was so amazing. You were the best artist in the show.” It’s like, no, not necessarily, it’s just that you’ve been sitting here listening to the same thing for the last six hours. It’s like, “Where do we stop?” That’s what I love, artists who are innovative and they’re not being trendy because it takes audacity to be authentic. It’s an audacity, it’s a boldness, it’s a willingness to be humiliated to do that. A lot of artists don’t understand that. When I’m up there playing, or I create something, I’m not just creating. That’s what I mean when I say my music is naked, because I am creating from the core. I’m not trying to be trendy. I’m not doing this for you to tell me, “Jlin, this was great.” I’m don’t this because that’s who I am as a person.

Chal Ravens

Let’s get into some specifics. Tell me a little bit about how you tried to find the authenticity, and break away from the sounds that you’re already hearing – something about what it is that is unique about what you do.

Jlin

When my mom posed the question to me, and said, “What do you sound like?”, that made me wonder. That was that wonder, what do I sound like? Where do I fit in to this whole grand scheme of music, of whatever? It was just like, what is my sound? When I created “Erotic Heat” I was like, “Man, I’ve never heard anything like it.” It was new for me. I was just like, “OK,” and then, I just kinda rolled with it. It grew on me. It’s not that I discovered a sound, it was more like I took a journey into the sound and we embraced each other. I embraced it, and it’s ever-evolving. That’s the thing, it’s not just one thing, which is why, with the ballet, with Autobiography, it’s so different, so many different skills of how it sounds because all of that is me.

I think duality is really important. Versatility is really important, I think, in anything you do. Having the duality, to me, is a nice touch because when you are versatile as an artist it says, “I can do more than one thing. I can do more than two things. I can do three things.” However many things you can do. I can tie this in with that thing. That’s why me and Wayne McGregor work so well together, because it’s just like, he tells me his vision, and then I can just tie it in together. It’s like being a chameleon. I like being that chameleon, I have to say.

Chal Ravens

Wayne McGregor is the choreographer of Autobiography, which is your new ballet score. We’ll get to that. Can you just describe your studio setup for us?

Jlin

Yeah. My studio setup is very... actually, I’m about to demolish it when I go back home because I’m tired of it. [Laughs] My studio set up consists of – I have my laptop, and I have Genelec speakers, the 8020s. I have two Ableton Push 2s, I have the Maschine. I had the Akai Pro but I gave it away to a friend. I use Kontakt, I’m sure you guys are well aware of Kontakt, and the new one coming out and all that. I’m a Native Instruments [user], I’m an Ableton user. I use FL Studio. I use Reason 5 and 6. Whatever mood I’m in is just what I use. Predominantly though, I use FL Studio, but I will definitely go into Reason 5 and 6. That’s kinda how my setup is right now. Like I said, I’m gonna go and destroy the whole thing when I go home.

Chal Ravens

The first album... Let’s not misread this. The title is Dark Energy.

Jlin

Yes, because everybody kept calling it Dark Matter for the longest. [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

Not Dark Matter. In an old interview, you once said that you “create from a place that is the belly of the beast”, but I don’t want to misread what Dark Energy means in this kind of scenario. Tell me a bit about that because I think, again, it can be easy to get into the tortured genius myth...

Jlin

No, that’s not what that means at all. The belly of the beast, what that means is that I create from a space that is uncomfortable. When I say that I don’t mean that I’m in a tortured space. That means that I’m being forced to create from my core, and a lot of people, I have found, won’t do that. I won’t use MIDI patterns from myself or from an old track. I refuse to. People are like, “Do you use loops, or do you use your own MIDI?” I’m like, “Absolutely not.” Every time I create a track it is a new sequence for me, because every track is its own entity, and they’re all standalone. I’m not gonna go borrow from [one track] and put it in “Guantanamo.” That’s just ridiculous. When I create from the belly of the beast, that means that I am like a diamond. The diamond, before it becomes a diamond, you see this piece of coal, nobody pays attention to it. It’s just a piece of coal. Then all of a sudden it goes under this tremendous amount of pressure, and the pressure is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just that in society, unfortunately in the society that we live in, when you say pressure, you think it’s bad. It’s not necessarily. Actually, for me, that pressure makes me a better person, it makes me a better artist. It’s a personal thing as well as a professional thing because I can’t even address the profession musically unless I address me personally. That’s what I mean when I say creating from the belly of the beast, having to face things about myself that I don’t like. Having to deal with me personally before I can create musically. I don’t create unless I do address those things. I go, and I will detox for months at a time, so that I can create. All of that is important to me, and that’s what I mean when I say creating from the belly of the beast. Creating from a space that is uncomfortable, but makes you a better person.

Chal Ravens

When you say detox, what do you mean by that?

Jlin

When I was creating the score for Autobiography, I went vegan for three months and I only drank water and I only ate fruit and vegetables. That’s all I did. I had to detox because I knew I didn’t wanna be... I wanted to be as toxin-free as I could while I was creating that. I’m gonna do the same thing when I create my third album. I think that process just works for me a lot better.

Chal Ravens

Let’s just rewind. A second ago you said about not reusing patterns from different tracks. It would be a good moment to talk about the 4D show that you’re putting on, because you were explaining to me before about quite the amount of work that it takes. Can you tell me what you were saying about what’s in a track?

Jlin

Yeah. I actually showed this on Instagram because sometimes, I don’t know if you guys know, I do these little Instagram Live things sometimes where I’m actually creating. I pulled up a track and I think it had... how many patterns? It had about 647 patterns, and there were about 900 or so sequences. All of my tracks are like that. The thing about it is, when I say that, if you listen to my work it doesn’t sound unbelievable because all of my stuff is so layered. I go through and make every last one of those sequences from scratch. I don’t go in and MIDI myself, and say, “Okay, I’m gonna snatch this MIDI, that MIDI, that MIDI, that MIDI.” No. That’s why it takes me so long to make a song. From start to finish it’s all freshly made.

Chal Ravens

And it’s intuitive, just as you’re going through that?

Jlin

Yeah. It is. It’s like a writer when they start a [novel]. What is their first sentence? As soon as I find that first sentence I can continue writing until I put the period on the end of it. Yeah.

Chal Ravens

For this 4D sound show, you’re having to go through all of these [sequences].

Jlin

Yes. I had to break each one of those tracks down, which was... [laughs]. The thing about it was, I did it in three days, which realistically I should have probably done it in three weeks, but I did it in three days which was quite hectic. The reason I did it like that, my schedule is so hectic. Last year and this year was just ridiculous. Like I told you, I was on the road last year for 10 and a half months. Yeah.

Chal Ravens

This is why your 96-hour weeks built some stamina…

Jlin

Yeah.

Chal Ravens

We’re gonna hear one of the tracks that you did with Holly Herndon. Which one would you prefer?

Jlin

I like “1%.”

Chal Ravens

This is “1%” with Jlin and Holly Herndon.

(music: Jlin & Holly Herndon – "1%")

Jlin

I forgot I liked that track.

Chal Ravens

Holly Herndon is another artist who, I guess, is quite concerned with breaking free of genre in some ways. She collaborates in quite conceptual ways. She uses technology. She’s very cutting edge with technology. You’ve known her for ages.

Jlin

Yeah. Me and Holly, that’s my sister right there. That’s the homey.

Chal Ravens

How did you find each other, and when was that?

Jlin

I had just finished “Erotic Heat” and she hit me up. She was like, “Hi, I normally don’t introduce myself to people, but my name is Holly Herndon and I just wanna tell you [...] I love this track,” and we just started like that. We kept in communication, and next thing I knew she’s like, “Hey, you know what. I’m just gonna shoot you some stems.” That’s when “Expand” came along.

Chal Ravens

“Expand” being New York Times’ number eight track of 2015.

Jlin

Yes. That came along.

Chal Ravens

Casual.

Jlin

I’m just joking. Yeah. That came into play. A lot of people don’t know, me and Holly were actually trying to go to Mills College together. We were trying to go, and she actually ended up going. I didn’t, but we were both trying to do that at the time. I think we just took a chance on each other. “Expand”, when we did that track, it was just one of those things where it was like, “Hey, I trust you, you trust me, let’s just work it out.”

Chal Ravens

What did you do? Just send files back and forth?

Jlin

Yeah, she literally just shot me a whole thing of files, and she was like, “I know you gonna think I’m weird, but I’mma just shoot you all of my stems.” It was a lot of stuff, it was actually so funny.

Chal Ravens

She picked the right person to deal with a lot of stems, right?

Jlin

Yeah, she definitely picked the right person. For sure. Yeah, then when we did “1%” it was basically... that actually was the weirdest thing, how that happened, because I was at her house, and sometimes when I’m here in Berlin me and Holly will go live on Instagram. People tend to freak out because usually I’m by myself. The last time we did it we both had on hoodies, and people were like, “Yo, is that Holly Herndon?” I’m like, “Yeah.” I was on my way out the door geared to go back to my hotel, and she’s like, “Hey, I’mma shoot you some stems. Do what you want with them.” I’m like, “Yeah, OK. I’ll put them on the album,” and then it actually really did come into play. So yeah, we just do that.

Chal Ravens

As someone who works on their own a lot, how important is it for you to have someone who knows you that well, and you can collaborate with still?

Jlin

It’s really important. Holly being one of the people who, if I could have a track with her on every album I probably would. I probably would. Holly’s one of my favorite artists, for sure. Not just because she’s my friend, but also because she’s such a conceptual [artist] and her usage of technology is just so genius. In such a way that only Holly can do, and nobody else can emulate what it is that she does. Sometimes it gets so intense that it’s like, I think even she gets confused sometimes because it’s just like, “Oh, shit, I didn’t mean for this to happen, but it sounds great.” Those are always happy moments for an artist, for sure.

Chal Ravens

Sometime around that point you were studying engineering.

Jlin

Yeah, I was in architectural engineering. I minored in math.

Chal Ravens

It kind of seems too obvious, but there’s something about architectural engineering that maps on, pretty strongly, with this. Like you were saying, maths and music ... Maths people are often music people in a certain way. How does that actually work when you’re in the studio? Do you find that you get lost in detail? How do you keep control of big picture?

Jlin

The big picture? You can get lost, but usually when I’m at the point where I get lost, I’m like, “OK, that’s it. I’m going to the movies. I need to go do something. I need to watch Scooby Doo. I need to do something.” That’s been my wind-down lately. I literally have bought every Scooby Doo episode from 1970 to 1973 because those were the best editions. When my mom was finishing high school. That is the way I unwind now. I literally watch Scooby Doo episodes, and I’m not afraid to say it. If you have a cartoon that you like to watch, I think you should watch it. Don’t be ashamed, guys.

Chal Ravens

This is a really straightforward question, but how long does it take you to make a track?

Jlin

Jesus Christ. “Guantanamo” was eight months. Eight months, with two different versions. The first version I absolutely hated. The second version, which is the one that you guys have, it took months to make that. That first overture track on Autobiography, which is the first track to the score, it took me a day and a half. It just depends on, honestly, what mood I’m in. When I created the track “Black Origami” it became an overwhelming thing. I have to walk out of the room many times so I can take a deep breath, and then come back and do it. I don’t know. For whatever reason, that track just made me overwhelmed. It’s just a moody thing, I think.

Chal Ravens

We’re gonna hear a track from Free Fall, which is the EP between the two albums, and we’ll explain why in a second.

(music: Jlin – “BuZilla”)

Jlin

Oh boy.

Chal Ravens

I just want to quite quickly mention RP Boo at this juncture. This track is…

Jlin

That was dedicated to him.

Chal Ravens

It’s called “BuZilla”?

Jlin

Yeah.

Chal Ravens

It’s a tribute to a pivotal footwork track?

Jlin

Yeah. I’ve never heard anybody do a dedication track to an artist. Boo was definitely one of those people because he was definitely, at the time, in my life – still pretty much so, just very heavily at that time. For sure, I used to talk to him every day. Not just because of the help he gave me but also I loved the way he would put samples together. I specifically remember telling him I need the samples that he used in his track called “Release.” And then I needed the... I forgot the other track. It was two different tracks that I was like, “I need those samples ‘cause I wanna make this track.” He didn’t even know I was doing it. When he heard it, he was like, “Shut up. I had no idea you were doing that and that’s why you needed that stuff,” and his vocals... I just put it together and actually ended up being something... people were like, “What? That’s crazy! What?”

Chal Ravens

Tthe track that it’s attributed to is usually known as “The Godzilla Track.”

Jlin

Right.

Chal Ravens

It’s a track by RP Boo that is actually wrongly credited.

Jlin

It was initially wrongly credited, yeah, but it’s actually his track.

Chal Ravens

It is his track. Obviously it’s a Godzilla movie sample, but I believe he actually got it from the…

Jlin

That actually, I had to go really look for that sample because that was the original Godzilla sample. It was really hard for me. It took me three weeks to find it – the track was done, I just needed that Godzilla sample though.

Chal Ravens

’Cause he just took his from the Pharoahe Monch track, which is much more convenient. I wanted to speak to you a bit about RP Boo ’cause like you say, he was a mentor to you, but I’m very wary of that framing of the young female artist with a male mentor, which can easily get a bit recycled by journalists. I know that he was quite instrumental in bringing you into the next stage, particularly with DJing?

Jlin

No. What happened was, as some of you guys may not know, when I was creating music I actually didn’t know how to perform at all. We won’t even talk about that phase, but I didn’t know how to perform, so I actually went to his house. I had one lesson of him teaching me how to DJ on the 1200s, actually. I figured out that this was nothing but a thing of timing and it was just a matter of my emotion catching up with my thinking. I went home and I bought the Numark Pro mixer, I think Pro 2 at the time. I went and got it and I was just practising, practising, practising. I just couldn’t get it for the life of me. And then he introduced me to this beautiful thing called cue points. From that point when he was like, “Yeah, you just set your cues and then that way you know where to come in, and then eventually you’re gonna get to a point where you don’t even need the cue points ‘cause you know your sounds so well. When I did get to that point, I was like, “Oh, wow! This is really easy.”

What happened was, MUTEK festival in Montreal had a show and they were like, “Well, I know you DJ but this is really a show where you play live.” I was like, “OK.” They were like, “Well, do you wanna do it?” I’m like, “Well, I don’t know how to play live.” They were like, “But do you wanna learn?” I was like, “Yeah, OK!” I basically agreed to a show before I even knew how to play live, which I didn’t used to talk about, but it’s OK now! I agreed to a show and I didn’t even know how to do it. Then I got introduced to Ben Casey from Ableton. Ben took me under his wing. Immediately I said, “Ben, this is where I’m at. I gotta learn how to do this show. I got three weeks to learn how to perform live. Can you help me?” He’s like, “Oh, absolutely.” We would get on Skype call for a whole week and literally he showed me everything that I needed to do and we broke down my tracks and everything. It’s been a joyride ever since! [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

Three weeks to learn it.

Jlin

Yes. Everything in my life is like that – it seems like I have to learn it in three weeks, and they’re like, “Oh yeah, by the way, you have two hours to learn how to do this.” And it’s like, this is insane. But yes, way my life works.

Chal Ravens

I just wanna add that I can completely corroborate this story because, a while back I interviewed RP Boo and asked him this question. He said that he basically showed you the controller and you’re like, “OK, right, yeah.” You went away and three weeks later you came back and he was like, “You’re ready.”

Jlin

I called him. What happened is I called him on the phone and I was like, “I want you to listen to this.” We were talking about something totally different, had nothing to do... we were talking just like our normal conversations. I was blending while were talking and he’s like, “Do you realize that we went through 10 songs and you haven’t missed a beat?” He’s like, “You got it. You know how to DJ now. Go.”

Chal Ravens

So you didn’t need him.

Jlin

He literally was just like, “OK, go. You got it.” He said, “You absolutely had it.” I really appreciate him for that. To this day he’s always... if I need him he’s always there.

Chal Ravens

Do you feel like you’re in a position now where it’s your turn to be mentoring?

Jlin

I’m too silly to mentor anybody. Honestly, I’m serious. If you’ve ever seen me on Instagram live, I’m probably one of the silliest people I know. I will sit there and explain something in production and then go from doing that to talking about how Cancers are crybabies. I’m so silly!

But no, honestly though, when a person does need something or if you ask me something, I will definitely explain it to you as much as I can. But as far as me actually mentoring somebody, I think I still have some growing up to do myself before I can go and sit down and say, “I’m gonna mentor this person.” Plus, I think if I mentor you, you gotta be crazy as hell anyway because I’m pretty crazy, I have to say.

Chal Ravens

Let’s play a track from Black Origami. I’ve got two here. Do you want “Holy Child,” or do you want “Kyanite”?

Jlin

Let’s do, “Holy Child.”

Chal Ravens

This is a collaboration…

Jlin

With me and William Basinski.

Chal Ravens

Maybe tee this up a bit, because William Basinski is not the first person you might think of to collaborate with.

Jlin

No [laughs]. Me and William met in LA at the Broad Museum. We had a show together, we just didn’t realize it at the time. I met him and I didn’t realize he was a legend at the time. When you’re young and you’re silly and you don’t research these things. I never look at the lineup. I’m like Serena Williams, when she plays, she never looks at who she’s playing – I never look at the lineup. I’ve also missed some great artists because of that too, because I haven’t looked.

Chal Ravens

He’s an ambient artist.

Jlin

He’s an ambient artist, so we’re what people would consider as far as the East is from the West. We met each other and I came down to watch him play. He played outside at this museum in LA and I was blown away. What I didn’t realize is that when it was time for me to play, he came up to watch my show. After I finished playing, he was the first person I saw after I played. He comes up to me, he grabs me and he hugs me and he says, “You know we’re gonna work together, right?” I was like, “What?” I remember telling my label, “Yeah, I met William Basinski and we’re gonna work together,” and they were like, “What?!” I’m like, “Yeah.” They’re like, “William wants to work with you?” and I’m like, “Yeah.” I didn’t understand at the time, but from my understanding it’s not something he does. It was an honor to have had that happen for sure.

Chal Ravens

Let’s just hear it first.

Jlin

OK.

(music: Jlin – “Holy Child”)

Jlin

Thank you. I like that track ’cause I can hear the growth from what I was doing back then up until that point. “Holy Child” was a pivotal point for me just that I can hear, personally, myself. That and “Nyakinyua Rise,” those were two very pivotal points for me musically ‘cause I could hear the growth from Dark Energy until then.

Chal Ravens

How did you find common ground with William Basinski? What were you both doing?

Jlin

How we found common ground is, I think, out of all the collaborations that I have done up until this point, every last person who has collaborated with me has never micro-managed me. Because, I think they realize... not just with me but with anybody you work with, when you approach somebody I think you will get the best work out of that person if you don’t micro-manage them. They never micro-managed me. Like Holly, he gave me some stems and was like, “Go. I just wanna see what you can do.” He had no idea that it would come back sounding like that though. When I sent it to him, I remember he said, “I’m gonna listen to it.” I text him, I said, “OK, I sent you the track.” And he said, “I’ll let you know what I think.” I said, “Yeah, please do so.” I was sitting there for four minutes nervous as hell. The longest four minutes of my life. I remember he sent me this text back and it was in all caps: “CALL ME RIGHT NOW.” I was like, “Oh shit.” I called him and he was like, “This is one of the most epic things I’ve ever heard.” When he said that to me, I don’t know what I thought. I don’t know if I thought he started speaking another language or what happened, but I couldn’t believe that he liked it, ‘cause I loved it when I was done with it. But he was like, “This is amazing.” He was like, “This is why I trust you to do this,” he said, “because I wouldn’t just hand my work to anybody, but I really trusted you to deliver just like you did.”

Chal Ravens

Can you break down a bit more about how your style evolved on this album? The percussion in particular.

Jlin

The percussion in particular. I’m known for my percussion and the way that I use percussion. One of the reasons is I use percussion from all over – I use Indian percussion, I use African percussion, I use Brazilian percussion. Now I’m gonna start incorporating Persian percussion. I use taiko drums. I love percussion from all over the world. That is where the evolution of when my sound really started evolving, because I stopped using just certain things. I started going all over the diaspora, percussion-wise. That’s where I could hear the evolution of my sound starting to take shape where I could hear and say, “Ah, OK. Now I hear me now.” Even that is gonna evolve. That’s the whole beauty of it. I feel like if you ever wanna know if you’re doing it right, are you evolving, can you hear your growth? Because that is what’s important. Because if you can’t hear your growth, then you been sitting in the same spot for the last two albums or five years or whatever. It might be time to come out of your comfort zone.

Chal Ravens

Your next album is this ballet score, Autobiography.

Jlin

Well, it’s not really my third album but it’s the...

Chal Ravens

The next on the list.

Jlin

Yeah, yeah.

Chal Ravens

It’s out this month, right? Later this month?

Jlin

Yeah, on the 28th of this month, actually.

Chal Ravens

Plug.

Jlin

Plug! [Laughs]

Chal Ravens

It’s a score for ballet by Wayne McGregor, who is a very acclaimed choreographer and dancer. It was quite funny – I remember now that there’s this show on the radio in the UK called Desert Island Discs... it probably gets syndicated to other places. It’s on Radio 4 and it's maybe for older people having their breakfast on a Friday morning. He picked a Jlin tune as one of the tunes that he would not be without on a desert island. I loved the idea of my 80-year-old auntie playing Desert Island Discs on in the morning and turning off immediately. Can you tell us a bit about the ballet itself, Autobiography?

Jlin

Yeah. The autobiography is not your typical autobiography. It’s actually based on Wayne’s entire genome code, basically. He had got his entire reading back from a... I think the professor was from Harvard University, if I’m not mistaken. That’s what the ballet’s based on. That’s one of the most intimate things that you can... just that fact that he trusted me to do that. That’s such an intimate thing, your reading of your code of who you are as a being. Let me just start by saying that that’s a very intimate thing and I didn’t take it lightly. He actually had me read this book called... I can never think of the author’s name, but it’s called The Gene. I read it, and when I read it a lot of it made me feel different things. It made me understand why we’re in the state we’re in now for the most part, as far as society goes. With Wayne, it made me see him in a different light. When I first met him initially in downtown Chicago, we met face-to-face and we were talking. This was October of 2016 and we met face-to-face. When I met him, immediately I can tell his energy was just like mine. We just hit it off immediately... I asked him, “What do you want me to do?” He said, “I just want you to create. That’s all I want you to do.” He said, “This is the ballet, this is what it’s about. There’s the book; I want you to create. That’s it.” It was just that cut-and-dry. I’m like, “Well, there has to be more to it than that.” And he’s like, “No. I just want you to create.” So I did.

Chal Ravens

I know that there are several participants here who mentioned that they make music for theater. I just wondered, how does that change how you approach it? Are you thinking more visually?

Jlin

It changes you as an artist. It changes you because your approach changes. The way you see things changes. This ballet changed me as an artist, absolutely, because I hear differently now. I think differently, I see differently, my audio and my visual have become one instead of them being two separate things. It changes you.

Chal Ravens

You didn’t have a brief from him as such?

Jlin

No. As far as, did I know him before? His work?

Chal Ravens

As in, how strict were his instructions of what he wanted?

Jlin

No, that was it. He said, basically, “I want you to do you.” That was his instruction. And the reason being because, like I said before, I think if you trust an artist, and especially if you guys in here who create... Everybody’s artistic in some way whether you know it or not. But nothing is worse, I’m sure that all of you can relate, than when somebody’s standing over your shoulder micro-managing you. Because, if I trust you to do something – I’m looking at all you guys – if I trust you, especially if I initially approached you first and I trust you to do something, then I trust you to do it. I’m not gonna then stand over you and say, “Do this, this. A-B-C.” Because I’m not gonna get your best work if I’m micro-managing you. That’s the way Wayne was with me. That’s why he told me to just create, and the only person he wanted involved in me creating, was me and him. He didn’t want any middlemen whatsoever. I am so grateful for that, because you don’t get that a lot, especially in this industry. Most people, they say they want you to work, and then you get in the middle of a project, and then the project sometimes is shot to hell because you’re being micro-managed. There’s nothing wrong with taking direction. I get that. But when you’re looking at a person’s style and who their identity is and this is why you chose this person to work with, then trust them to be them. It saves a lot of time and a lot of emotion. Just trust that person to be themselves.

Chal Ravens

We’ve got a clip which is basically the music video to the single that you’ve got. But it also includes some of the dancing, so hopefully it will appear.

(video: Jlin - “Abyss Of Doubt”)

Jlin

Wow.

Chal Ravens

Back in 2011 when people like Spinn and Rashad and RP Boo first came over to Europe to play footwork shows, the dancefloor was a mess – nobody knew how to dance to that. So I feel like we really made some progress here. What is it like to see people dancing to your music? Is there a feedback loop? Are you making music for people to dance to? Are you visualizing?

Jlin

I love movement, but when I say movement, that can be so broad, from the way that a person is sitting to the way that a person blinks their eyes, and the way that a person moves their hands when they talk. I love movement. For me, I didn’t start off creating so people could dance; I just really was inspired by just movement. I love watching a person in just their most human form. They don’t even realize what they’re doing, but they’re at their most innocent selves. I love when I see that, and so that’s one of the things that I like to create around, like spaces like that. When I was working with Wayne and when I actually got to meet the dancers, when I actually watched this, I was like, “Oh my God, this matches. This is so in sync, I can’t even begin to tell you how in sync it is.” These are the best dancers in the world. To be amongst them was such a high honor, and then Wayne being who he is.

But the movement – when I see people in movement, I love it. I really love now when I see people who tag me on Instagram because they’ve seen this, they’re inspired now where they actually would tag me on Instagram – “Hey Jlin, I was dancing to your track.” “Hey Jlin, check this out.” They’ll either message me or tag me randomly that they were dancing. I love that I evoke that in different choreographers around the world. I think it’s a beautiful thing.

Chal Ravens

The other thing you did that was new for you on this score is you made some ambient pieces.

Jlin

Yes I did.

Chal Ravens

Which is getting out of your comfort zone with no drums there...

Jlin

Actually, it’s not even out of a comfort zone thing. That’s what I meant when I said the duality and versatility. I have always been that person, I just never displayed it until now.

Chal Ravens

It was quite convenient because you were able to send your very first ambient track to Basinski to check out.

Jlin

Yeah, I did! Yes I did. When I first sent it to him, he was like, “It’s beautiful, but let it breathe. Let the track breathe.” He said, “Let it do its thing.” When I went back and I listened to it, I knew exactly what he meant and I said, “OK.” When I sent it to him again, he’s like, “That’s what I’m talking about. Nailed it to a T.”

Chal Ravens

We’ll hear it. how long is it?

Jlin

It’s five minutes and eight seconds, I think.

Chal Ravens

Let’s see...

Jlin

I shouldn’t know my work like that, that’s so vain.

Chal Ravens

It’s five minutes and eight seconds.

(music: Jlin – “First Overture Spiritual Atom”)

Chal Ravens

Thank you. So that track is “First Overture Spiritual Atom,” so it’s a sort of beginning.

Jlin

I’ve never even played an ambient track in front of people before, this was the first, so Red Bull got an exclusive.

Chal Ravens

Yeah it’s not out yet.

Jlin

No, it’s not out yet.

Chal Ravens

I just wanted to loop back to “The Abyss of Doubt” which is the track that was playing on the video. It’s got a sample in it from Carrie.

Jlin

Yes. Sam Beckett, too.

Chal Ravens

It’s the bit where someone says, “They’re all going to laugh at you.”

Jlin

Yes.

Chal Ravens

I don’t want to spoil Carrie, but maybe everyone’s kind of seen it now, but the plot of Carrie is that she is a high school student who gets her revenge. She is humiliated and she turns that humiliation into a pretty horrific revenge scene. And I feel like a lot of the music we’ve heard taps into a sense of rage and revenge perhaps. And particularly maybe a kind of female rage. You have this track “I Am the Queen”, where there’s the…

Jlin

It’s funny, because that track is not about me at all. Because everybody thinks it is. They’re like, “Is that about you?” And I’m like, no, actually it was a track dedicated to Crystal James, who was a footwork artist out of, she’s a footwork dancer, out of Chicago. And that’s dedicated to her because she’s my favorite footwork dancer.

Chal Ravens

“Abyss of Doubt”?

Jlin

No, “I Am The Queen”. That’s dedicated to her. Yeah.

Chal Ravens

But there’s a lot of powerful, potentially vengeful sounding emotions in several of the tracks that we’ve heard. I kind of wondered what makes you angry?

Jlin

What makes me angry? Oh boy. Everything these days. No, actually, I guess I don’t consider my work to be angry. I think it’s just, I think I have a boldness to my sound. So I think it comes out. There’s a boldness about me personally. And I think it just exerts audibly. It’s not that I mean for it to be angry or any of that. Actually I don’t see it as angry at all, I just see it as me just kind of... I guess maybe the sounds that I choose to use, I guess they would sound angry and they’re not playful or jolly in a way. But I don’t think it’s anger. I really do just think it’s me creating from the core of myself, but I don’t find it to be angry, because I find it to be a very, just you know... sharing I guess. I think what happens is, I’ll be honest with you, when I first initially came out, especially like when “Erotic Heat” and all this stuff came out, for two years everybody thought I was a guy. Because of the way that my music sounds. They just naturally assumed that I was a guy. And then when they found out that I was a woman, I remember, I’ll never forget Rashad saying to me, he said, “Well shit, out of the 12 men that’s in the room, Jlin knocks 10 of them out by herself.” And you know I didn’t mean to, but that is the way that, you know. I never meant it to be like such a masculine or a feminine thing. I just meant it to be a me thing. And, you know, that’s the way I create.

Chal Ravens

Yeah, I mean maybe there’s a sense of when a woman makes music that’s like that, it gets read into more deeply.

Jlin

Completely. Like it definitely gets gone into, like it becomes... automatically because this is already such a male-dominated genre, it just kind of... When I first started, I just automatically got placed into this, “Oh yeah, Jlin is a guy...” I mean people used to actually write me and be like, “Man, that’s an awesome track, bro. What’s up bro?” And I’m just like, “Hey.” And then I’m like, “I’m a woman.”

Chal Ravens

I think as well there is a tendency to, with writers and so on, to assume that when women make music it’s autobiographical. And confessional. And that men don’t have that responsibility to only be themselves. They can speak for others as well.

Jlin

Right, exactly. So I had to go into that phase, and then it almost went into the phase of like... I mean I’ve dealt with it, and I try not to dwell on it, but at the beginning, it’s not like that now, but I was definitely hit with that chauvinism. “Man, you make good tracks for a girl.” And it’s like, what does that even mean? And then like nine times out of 10, the person who said that to you, you go, “Do you even make music?” “Oh no, actually I don’t.” It’s like, I think that’s a ridiculous statement.

Chal Ravens

On a possibly related note, you mentioned this as something that you were interested to talk about – a topic that’s come up frequently recently is the relationship between musicians and their own mental health. And things that happen to musicians in their daily life when they’re touring 10 months out of a year can make it a bit difficult.

Jlin

Yeah.

Chal Ravens

And I wanted to ask you first of all, what do you think puts musicians at risk in terms of their own mental health?

Jlin

I think one of the things that puts us at risk is that we say yes more than we should. That’s one. I definitely think we say yes more than we should. And also too, it doesn’t help when you get to a place, because this has often happened to me, where I literally almost was like “Yo, I’m about to fly back home because I’m not…” You know, we’re not assembly line performers. We have feelings too. We get tired. We get emotional. Because we’re on the road and we are traveling so much we live in airports. We have feelings too. We also have a breaking point. You know I’m not just a little jack-in-the-box that every time you wind me up, I pop out and play. And that’s what a lot of people don’t understand. I might have had a show at two o’clock in the morning, finish playing at three, and my flight is at six. And then I’m expected to then come into soundcheck. My flight is two hours and then soundcheck is at 11 o’clock. I never slept the night before. And we’ll do that night after night after night after night. That’s how a lot of times artists end up on drugs, simply because they’re trying to stay awake.

So I’ve learned to say no, because the word no can save your life. I’ve even had to apologize to promoters and people – well, not even just the promoters but people who have had to come and pick me up from the airport because I’m so tired, and I’m so grumpy, you know, and it’s not their fault. They’re just coming to pick you up, you know. And I have had to say “I am so sorry, it’s just that I haven’t slept. Like, I literally have done this three nights in a row, back to back.” But you’re there to do a show. And that’s great. You do the show, you perform the show, you get through it. But see a lot of times, your immune system now is so low because you haven’t slept. You’re so tired. You’re exhausted. I mean I just came from Uganda. I just got in yesterday. You have to take that time out where you say “OK, I need a day.” So now what I do is if I have a show I always make sure I’m there the day before the show, so then I have a whole day’s time to rest. Then I can go into the show and then fly and do that whole process. Because it was just too hard, you know it’s too hard. Like if you’re doing a back-to-back and you just got like one or two off and then that’s it, it’s OK. But you have to take care and make sure you put you first. You have to know when to stop. You have to know when to create. When to sit still. And I don’t mean any disrespect to anybody in the room, you know, but drugs are not the answer. They’re just not the answer. And you can take as many as you want, you are a human being. At the end of the day when those drugs wear off, you’re still a human being, and you are not Superman or Superwoman. You have to take that time for yourself. It is so imperative that you take that time for yourself.

Chal Ravens

And have you kind of worked out little routines, little tips and tricks to kind of keep you in the… ?

Jlin

Oh yeah. Like now, like just with the way that I plan logistically as far as the shows that I pick. Like I’m not going to ... I was doing it crazy last year because I would fly home, sometimes I would fly home just for three days just to get peace of mind so I could come back out on the road. But now what I do is, one of my favorite places in Europe [where] I love to stay is in Krakow. So when I’m in Europe I have this one Airbnb that I love to stay in, so I’ll stay in that Airbnb, and I’ll stay there for a week and I’ll just rest. I mean, I just love the city of Krakow to be honest. And so, you know, I take that time for myself. I rest. I read. Meditating is a big one. Just sitting still and saying “It’s OK.” Like when I’m in town, especially when I’m in Berlin... I hate to say it, but I’m sure a lot of you guys kind of know it, it’s kind of like the ongoing joke now that every artist lives in Berlin. Even when I’m here, I’m hesitant to tell people that I’m here because everybody wants to hang out. And sometimes I just have to say no. Like I just I need I need a minute to myself. Like I said, every person is an artist in a room and creative in their own space. We are not jack-in-the-boxes. It’s OK to say no. If you need to take a nap, take a nap. Like to me, naps answer everything. Take a nap.

Chal Ravens

I was going to ask, finally, if you had any advice for younger self. But maybe it’s take a nap.

Jlin

No, for my younger self, if I had to give myself advice, it would be to embrace your failure. Definitely embrace your failure because that is… Your failure is more important than your success. You have to fail. And I will give any artist that advice. Anybody who’s doing anything that they are trying to better themselves or trying to sculpt and craft, you have to... that failure is so much more important than your success. I’m sure you guys have seen the picture where there’s an iceberg that’s sitting at the top of the water and then all that ice runs so deep under the water. Well, what’s important is that ice that’s under the water that you don’t see. So many times we talk to people who are you know, on a platform, and you talk to them. But everybody only wants to talk about their success. Nobody wants to talk about the failure that they had to go through to get to that point. I still have failures. I still go through some of the craziest things. I mean you have failures within yourself whether it be personally or professionally or whatever. I mean you have them. And acknowledge them, understand that those are learning experiences, and they make you a better person. And I hate the way that society identifies failure because it means, it almost becomes an instant gratification thing. If it didn’t happen you failed. No, the only time you fail is when you make a conscious decision to stand still and be stagnant. That is the only time you’re failing. Any other time other than that, you are making a step towards what you’re trying to do. And if I could tell younger me that, I would tell me that, and I would tell you guys that. Embrace your failures. There’s nothing wrong with it.

We live in a society where every other person has anxiety. And you can look at the world, and I hate to say it, but shit, if you don’t have anxiety, I almost question what world do you live in? But you know, it’s just that: embrace your failures. Because they’re so important to you. They really are. And like I said, you’re not failing. You’re not standing stagnant. You are doing what you’re supposed to do. It just didn’t happen when you thought it should. But that doesn’t mean stop. Keep going. Please keep going. Because I never would have thought that I would be in this position, first of all, to sit ... From an artist that went from their bedroom – who still makes music in their bedroom, as you guys some of you guys know – to be sitting in front of you having this conversation, this is an intimate thing. This is not just a production or something or an academic learning experience. This is real life. Hell, I sit down and it takes me hours upon hours to create. And don’t let these like silly ass YouTube videos [fool you], where an artist sits down and in two minutes they have a whole track. That’s not even realistic. What they didn’t show you were the edit cuts that they took out. But you know, that’s real life. I love settings like this where you can sit down and have real conversations with people. Because it’s so important. We have to talk to each other. We have to communicate with each other. It’s so important. The other person doesn’t know that I might be, “Yo, I’m going through the same thing too. But you’re the first person I ever heard talk about it.” This is real life. An embrace it. Because we’re all going through it. We’re all evolving. And you know like I said, I really appreciate every last one of y’all coming out here. Because it’s important to me. I mean, I know what I know, but this is a learning experience for all of us. And I’m grateful to like every last one of y’all for coming out and sharing this with me.

Chal Ravens

Yeah. Go forth and fail.

Jlin

Yes please.

Chal Ravens

Thank you very much, Jlin.

Jlin

Thank you. Thank you.

Chal Ravens

OK, who has a question?

Audience Member

Hi.

Jlin

Hi.

Audience Member

Thank you for everything you’ve said, it’s nice to hear.

Jlin

Oh, thank you.

Audience Member

I was wondering if you had any advice, like now that we’re on the subject of failing and this idea of micr-omanagement in collaboration, and all these things coming up – we’re doing this thing and we’re two weeks in this place, and we have lectures, and we have interviews, and all these new things. And we’re also meant to collaborate with each other in the spare time. It’s a bit difficult to know how to make space, to actually get to know the people you’ll be collaborating with and to figure out how you’ll do that, without it just being about the pressure.

Jlin

In a situation like that – I’ve been in situations like that before, too. In that setting, the best thing that I could tell you for both parties, you and whoever you’re collaborating with, is to be authentically yourself. Always be authentically you. Don’t ever, you don’t have to adapt to somebody else’s. Be authentically yourself. Especially creatively. If you’re not feeling something, don’t go along with it and say it’s cool because it’s such and such. Like, I don’t give a damn who it is. It could be whoever. Like I mean if I was doing something with Madonna and I just wasn’t feeling it, I would have to tell Madonna, “I’m not feeling this.” I mean, honestly, you know, I’m not going to roll with it because of who it is. Even I love Sade, but you know I’m not going to go with something, or like something, because it’s Sade. You have to be authentically yourself. Always choose that first. And that’s how I would say, how to come into that.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Jlin

You’re welcome.

Chal Ravens

I think there was one there.

Audience Member

Hi.

Jlin

Hi.

Audience Member

First of all, thanks for sharing your wisdom. It blew my mind. Your music, I didn’t know it before, and it absolutely blew me away.

Jlin

It’s an honor, thank you for coming. Thank you.

Audience Member

Thank you. And I wonder if you could share with us if you had any like spiritual practice. I know it’s a very personal question.

Jlin

No, I do. I do, yeah.

Audience Member

Do you have any spiritual practice that you do, especially on a daily basis, but also before starting to work on music?

Jlin

Yeah, I’ve actually talked about this before. I talk to my ancestors daily. I do. I talk to my ancestors. I know that might sound crazy to some of y’all but I definitely talk to my ancestors. I talk to Nina Simone. I talk to Eartha Kitt. I talk to my grandmother. Just asking for, I just need guidance. What am I supposed to do? I definitely practice spirituality. I have a stone that I’m wearing right now which is onyx. I got it made in Israel. And it promotes protection and creativity and productivity. And I got it blessed before it was sent to me. So yeah, I definitely practice. I’m not a religious person. But I definitely practice spirituality. Some of the track titles of my music are very spiritual things. So yeah, definitely, for sure. Even when I meditate, the things that I focus on... There’s no harm in just taking a spiritual moment for yourself. I have a thing where I say there’s a fine line between my vulnerability and your entertainment. Because I’m not just up there performing. I’m not just creating music. It’s also a very spiritual thing that’s happening as well. You’re welcome.

Chal Ravens

One more?

Audience Member

Hi.

Jlin

Hi.

Audience Member

Thank you. I had the pleasure of listening to a set of yours in Athens.

Jlin

Oh, haha. Yeah.

Audience Member

Yeah, in the church. It was beautiful.

Jlin

Thank you.

Audience Member

And I was wondering, because especially in the live set, but now as well, I felt that there was a lot of humor in the way you changed from a song to the other. And I am just wondering because I feel that there is a lot of political comments of how you use the sound. There are politics involved. I can see that. You said that you start a song from the beginning and just go through... how important is the narrative for you?

Jlin

The narrative is... I have a thing that I abide by. It’s called CPU, which stands for clean, precise and unpredictable. That is the narrative that I abide by. That when I create, I have to create in that aspect. Nothing sucks more than when you just hear ... Like, you know an artist, so you see them, and you’re just like, “I know exactly what to expect from this person.” But for me, when I start a track or when I start that sentence of that track, that is the most important. Because that opens up a totally different world of what I can do. That’s why I say every track that I make is a standalone. Because they’re not like this in sync thing. They really do each have their own body, their own energy. And so that’s why the narrative is so important for me in the sense of having that freedom to work within an infinite amount of space, and not a constrained... There’s not like a... what is the word I’m looking for? Like a restriction on where I will and won’t go. And so yeah that’s what’s important to me. Yeah.

Audience Member

Same.

Jlin

Thank you.

Chal Ravens

One more?

Audience Member

Hey.

Jlin

Hi.

Audience Member

I think your work is incredible. When I first heard it I was blown away. I was like, this sounds so fresh and so new.

Jlin

Thank you.

Audience Member

I have a kind of boring music production question. But it ties in with this mentality that you’re talking about and this unique individual approach. You put up a thing in your Facebook saying producers need to stop putting their kicks on the one. I saw that and…

Jlin

Yes. OK. Yeah. That is definitely something that I like. “Holy Child,” that entire track, all the kicks are off beat. None of them are on beat. And I specifically wanted it that way. Yeah, you don’t have to put the kick on the one. You know? I feel like space is infinite to create. So why not use it? It doesn’t have to be based on, OK, the kicks should be on one, or it should just be boom, boom, boom. But it’s just like, OK guys. We can do so much more than that. It’s just that, like I said, you know when it’s trendy, and this is what’s making people move. Nothing aggravates me more than when I’m in the space – well, these are one of the things that aggravate me. When I’m in the space, and then it’s like you’re waiting for the drop to happen and then it actually happens. I just get so pissed off. I’m like… “Why?”

Audience Member

What I was curious about is that I feel like there’s been this huge resurgence in like triplets, in rhythm, in dance music.

Jlin

Mm-hmm.

Audience Member

And I feel like when I first heard your stuff, I was like, holy shit, she takes triplets to a whole new place that I didn’t even know that it could go.

Jlin

I love threes. I love threes. I love sixes too.

Audience Member

Yeah. And I was wondering what was the... Because I feel like listening to you stuff, sometimes there’s not a definite pulse you can latch onto, but there is more of a sense of sixes and threes than fours.

Jlin

Mm-hmm.

Audience Member

And what drew you to using that instead of fours?

Jlin

I got tired... I think there’s only so much I can do within four. I got tired of working in four. I know how to work in four. Even with Autobiography there are tracks that I work in four, but even then I know how to take it. It may be in four but it doesn’t sound like the traditional four. I take it out of that traditional form of four. And I jus got tired of working within four, honestly. I was just like, OK, this is just not working for me. It’s just one of those things that became robotic, like, “OK. There has to be more to it than this.”

That’s just me speaking. It’s no disrespect to anybody that works with four. 98% of my friends work in four. But I think that’s why it’s refreshing to hear when somebody does something different from the norm. That’s why I always tell a person when they’re like, man, that was the best set I’ve ever heard. And it’s like, no, actually, it’s just that you’ve been listening to the same thing for the last six hours. And it’s been five different artists. We can do it better. You know what I’m saying? I like when people become innovative and they challenge themselves more. That’s part of why I put those production tips up like that, just to give a person, to open their world a little bit more. And just based off of the things that I’ve learned, and taught myself. I’m still learning too, I’m just like y’all. I am not a master at any of this, that’s why I’m not ready to be nobody’s mentor, because I’m too damn silly. But it’s just like you know, I’m not a master at this, but the things that I do know, I’m always willing to share, and you know, yeah.

Chal Ravens

We’ll just have the final one.

Jlin

Yeah, for sure.

Audience Member

Hi.

Jlin

Hi.

Audience Member

It was really a pleasure listening to you today.

Jlin

Thank you.

Audience Member

I think I speak for all of us. And I wanted to ask you about a specific track we heard, “Guantanamo”, you said it had a previous version. I was wondering what you didn’t like about the first version? And also because I know sometimes when you finish a track and you don’t like it, it’s very hard to start over or to change some of the things. So how did you manage to do that?

Jlin

With “Guantanamo”, what I didn’t like about it first of all, with the first version, was I just felt like it wasn’t doing enough. I wasn’t feeling it at all. It has some good spots, but then I was just like, it’s not that impact that I like. Because I am my hardest critic. All of you guys in this room could tell me something sounds great, and if I hate it, I just hate it. Nobody can convince me otherwise So when I went and redid the second version, I started it – that’s why it took me eight months to do it, because I walked away from it for a long time and then I went back to it. Because I knew it had good aspects, but then I also had to grow as an artist too. My hearing matured. And then I was able to go back and create that second version. I’m like “OK, I like this a lot better, now it’s that feeling that I’m looking for.” The feeling that I’m evoking even before it hit y’all, for me. Because if I’m not feeling it, y’all not going to hear it. Like if I don’t like it, you guys won’t hear it. And I’ve had many of those, where I was just like, “This isn’t going to work.”

Audience Member

Yeah, I want to go further into the four and the three and the sixes in rhythm.

Jlin

Yeah.

Audience Member

What do you think about [the fact] we all work on the computer like in the grid?

Jlin

Yeah, you work in the grid.

Audience Member

And also with scales, like 12 tones in one octave.

Jlin

Yeah, I work in the grid too.

Audience Member

What do you think [about] working with the rhythm that is not in the grid.

Jlin

I’ve worked with the rhythm that’s not in the grid. “Holy Child” is not in a grid at all. That was the hardest track I’ve ever made. There’s also a track that is very difficult that I made that’s also on Autobiography called “Carbon-12”. It’s very difficult because I wasn’t working in a grid whatsoever. So you can work within the grid and still be in an infinite space, let me just say that. This is where math comes into play. You have permutation and combination. Endless combination, endless permutation. So you can transform a sound and drive a sound as many times as you like. A lot of times when I’m producing, when I’m making a track, a lot of times I may use the same sound 20 times but you didn’t know it, because it sounds different every time. So you create the infinity up here first [taps head]. Damn the grid that’s on the computer, who gives a shit about the grid. You be in your infinite space up here. And then create. That’s how I create. Yeah.

Chal Ravens

I’m glad we had that question. Again, give it up for Jlin.

Jlin

Thank you.