Larry Heard

Gerd Janson

And we have a very, very special guest here and it’s my pleasure to announce him. A man who shouldn’t need an introduction, who was maybe not solely responsible for house music but certainly put deepness into it and taught the machines some soul: Mr. Larry Heard.

[applause / cheers]

Larry Heard

Thank you.

Gerd Janson

Welcome. So, Larry, you told me last night, while you were recording a great radio show for us here, that your time as a child and as a teenager was very important for you in terms of music. How did you come to music?

Larry Heard

Well, that were just the formative years for me, where I started to appreciate music. Well, the way I approach music when I do my original music was all formed during these years of maybe from about 1968 to 1978. It covers a lot of styles of music also.

Gerd Janson

You were listening to radio a lot back then, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, that’s pretty much all you really had back in those days, and even the ’60s I don’t think FM radio had really blossomed at that time, so it was kind of AM radio, two or three-minute singles. But the good thing about it was that there was a wide range of styles, so I can see where – in doing some research as far as looking back to be able to say something – I did notice this crazy spectrum of things I was hearing all the time.

Gerd Janson

So, it was not one kind of music that caught your attention?

Larry Heard

No, like blues, rock, jazz, soul, gospel, I think were the essential ones. And I think reggae started to come into the picture during my teen years when I started, you know, seeking out music that I related to, that maybe wasn’t on the radio.

Gerd Janson

And you also brought the first record that you ever bought with you.

Larry Heard

Yeah, I saved my lunch money… I was accustomed to going to this record store with my mother and father, and see them buy records. And – you know how kids tend to be, you want to do what you see your parents do – so I saved my lunch money and asked my mother when are we going to the record stores so I can buy me a record too, you know? And this is the record that I bought right here.

(music: Sly & The Family Stone – “Everybody Is A Star” / applause)

Larry Heard

So, that’s the basic essence of the song.

Gerd Janson

And were Sly & The Family Stone role models for you, in terms of songwriting?

Larry Heard

I was too young to have role models other than my parents at this time, because I was about nine or ten-years old. But I did take notice of the music to the point where I made a mental note and wanted to get this 45. And of course, since I have one 45, you take great pride in that, and you just play it over and over and that’s what I did, how kids do.

Gerd Janson

And when did you start to learn an instrument?

Larry Heard

That would be a lot of years later. I was kind of the late bloomer out of the siblings in my family. I have four brothers, and all four of them were playing guitars and things like that when they were like ten or 11 years old. My parents always cultivated having some level of culture injected into our upbringing, so we had a piano in the house and they would always buy us the toy versions of different instruments: bongos, guitars, drums and things like that. And my brothers started to really get more into it before I did. I was about 17 years old when I was motivated to pursue learning the drums.

Gerd Janson

And did your parents play instruments too?

Larry Heard

Yeah, they both played piano, they had piano lessons in their upbringing, and they both sang.

Gerd Janson

And why drums?

Larry Heard

I just thought it was cool. I took guitar as my instrument in school. We had to take two instruments; we had to take flute or recorder and then a second instrument, and I chose guitar for that, because I figured if my brothers would do it, I could do it too. That’s what I did for my grade. But in the process of that going on I was kind of exposed to people playing other instruments, then kind of started paying attention to the drummer’s role in the rhythm section, and it felt like that would be a good place for me.

Gerd Janson

And you started playing in bands back then already?

Larry Heard

Yes, I started right away. Because, actually, I met a guy in the neighborhood by the name of Kevin Lacey, and he said he was putting a band together. He said he was looking for a drummer and I said, “Oh, I play drums.” And I hadn’t started playing drums yet, I was just kind of thinking about it. So, I had to escalate the process of getting some drums and hide out from this guy until I kind of learned how to do something. But I found out that I had a natural aptitude for doing it, and as things turned out, I didn’t end up in a band with this guy but I ended up in a band with some older guys who were playing R&B covers and things like that.

Gerd Janson

How long did you play with them?

Larry Heard

I can’t really remember because pretty much all the things I did on drums spanned about a seven-year period with me on jam bands, R&B cover bands, art-rock bands, reggae bands, and contemporary jazz kind of set-ups.

Gerd Janson

And you mentioned 1977 as the year you picked up the drums.

Larry Heard

Yeah, that’s when I started, sort like that period between ’77 and ’84 was where I kind of stumbled into the whole blossoming house music scene or movement or whatever you want to call it.

Gerd Janson

Because 1977 was, to my knowledge, also the year when Robert Williams opened Warehouse and brought Frankie Knuckles to Chicago.

Larry Heard

Yeah, that was the year? I didn’t realize that.

Gerd Janson

Were you aware of that whole club scene?

Larry Heard

No, I wasn’t because I was involved in the live music scene, so the clubs I was familiar with were more the live music venues. So, I was kind of late bloomer with regards to club music also because I was just doing something totally different at that time.

Gerd Janson

And when did you get on the club circuit then?

Larry Heard

Well, ’84, when I got to the point in the bands that I was dealing with were not really receptive to my creative ideas, me being the drummer. I don’t think it’s really all that customary for the drummer to have creative ideas, they just play the beat. So, I left the last band that I was in and bought myself a synthesizer and a drum machine to keep the time, so I could kind of experiment with the sounds I’d been hearing. The keyboard players in the bands that I had been in... I found it intriguing because of the new technology, these Arp synthesizers, Moog, Oberheim, and all those things, I was really drawn to it.

Gerd Janson

And do you remember the first synthesizer and the first drum machine you bought?

Larry Heard

I bought a Roland TR-707 for the drum machine and the keyboard was a Roland Jupiter-6.

Gerd Janson

Do you still have them?

Larry Heard

No, I don’t have it because after a certain amount of time gathering and buying instruments as I was able to, I found myself with a whole lot of equipment, kind of crowding myself out of my place, so I was trying to condense down and I sold it to someone.

Gerd Janson

And you knew about the club scene back then as you bought your drum machine and your synthesizer?

Larry Heard

Not really. Like I was saying, I was on the live club side of things. And one of the guys on the block, I let him hear the stuff that I was kind of playing around with, he said that it sounded like the music that they play at the Warehouse. And once I got that piece of information, then I had to start doing some research and find out, “OK, what is this Warehouse place? Maybe it can be somewhere where I can be able to test out what I’m doing, seeing if it relates to anything that’s going on, see if anybody likes it.”

Gerd Janson

And you paid the Warehouse then a visit?

Larry Heard

No, actually, I ended up being a little late for the Warehouse, even though, when I did find out where it was located, it turned out that it was like a few blocks from where I worked. But I think it was a transition time for them where Frankie Knuckles... Was it Frankie Knuckles at the Warehouse? Yeah, they were transitioning to the next place that Frankie Knuckles played at, which was called The Power Plant. So, that’s where I come into full exposure, if you would say, to kind of the club setting, the dance club setting.

Gerd Janson

And what was the first song you showed to the friend of yours who said it sounds like Warehouse music?

Larry Heard

It was “Mystery of Love”, the original version.

Gerd Janson

You have that with you, right, we can have a listen?

Larry Heard

Yeah, I do. We might as well talk while I try to find it. [looks in his CD case]

Gerd Janson

This was also the first record you released then, right?

Larry Heard

Yes. [continues to looks for the song, the moderator helps]

Gerd Janson

Should be also on...

Larry Heard

That wouldn’t be that version. That’s the third version.

Gerd Janson

So how many versions are there of “Mystery of Love”?

Larry Heard

There was an original version, well, my personal prototype that I had done, that I had a copy of. I made three acetates: I kept a copy, I gave one to Frankie Knuckles and I gave the other one to Ron Hardy, and since then I’ve heard they’ve exchanged hands a whole lot of times. I think one of the acetates was in Larry Levan’s possession when he died and from that point, I don’t know where it went to. But you can ask me something else while I’m trying to track down this. [flips through his CD case] We got digital music meltdown here. So much stuff. [laughs]

Gerd Janson

You mentioned Ron Hardy. He was probably the other most influential DJ Chicago had back then, right? He was playing at the Music Box.

Larry Heard

Yes.

Gerd Janson

And you went to the Music Box then?

Larry Heard

Yeah, I went to it. I think my personal preference, with my personality kind of being more laid back, ended being Frankie Knuckles. Me being kind of a serious-natured person and things like that, I was more comfortable in what felt more like a more serious environment. Whereas Ron Hardy was real upbeat, real kind of wild for me, but I went to it. And then I went to lots of events that Ron Hardy played and actually heard him play in different styles that I never have heard before, so I was surprised to find out more about his level of ability.

Gerd Janson

So, what were the main differences between Frankie Knuckles as a DJ and Ron Hardy?

Larry Heard

Well, I couldn’t tell you any in technical terms, but it just felt like Ron Hardy was kinda aiming for the younger, more energetic crowd. And Frankie Knuckles was kind of doing more the next age bracket up, who don’t want to get out and hurt their knees when they are dancing on the dancefloor but do want to get out and socialize and hear good music.

Gerd Janson

So, one being the house punk and the other the soul gentleman or something like that?

Larry Heard

Kind of something like that, yeah. [still looking for the CD] I’m still trying to track this song down while we are talking though.

Gerd Janson

So, what were the reactions to “Mystery of Love” then?

Larry Heard

Oh, the reactions were great. They were actually so great, that it was to the point that Ron Hardy claimed that he made the song, and Frankie Knuckles claimed that he made the song (laughter). And I kind of show up on the scene and kind of foil everything for both of them, when people who knew me saying this was the guy who made the “Mystery of Love” track. So, that kind of put a little tension in the relationship between myself and Frankie and Ron Hardy. Not from my perspective, but I think they maybe always felt like I would harbor some resentment for that, but to me it was more of a compliment. I mean, who would claim something that they feel is crap? So it confirmed for me that I was at something, that I was onto something that people could relate to.

Gerd Janson

So, was this always a big thing in Chicago that copyright...?

Larry Heard

The scene we are talking about isn’t that like a massive scene, we are not talking about a half-million people, you know, we are talking about like maybe a few thousand kids maybe, which is healthy enough to survive but it’s not like the following that say 50 Cent has or Guns N’ Roses and things like that. But enough to kind of survive.

Gerd Janson

But competition was fierce, nonetheless?

Larry Heard

Yes, of course. All of the local DJs... Even if you are dealing with like a thousand people who may regularly go out and party, that may be divided between seven or eight DJs who are doing different little events and residencies around the city, so that number is kind of reduced as far as a certain amount going to Frankie Knuckles, a certain amount to Ron Hardy, a certain amount going to Wayne Williams and Andre Hatchet and some of those other guys who were around at the time but are just less known.

Gerd Janson

And this is also manifested in the two main labels back at the time in Chicago: Trax Records on the one hand and DJ International on the other?

Larry Heard

I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from.

Gerd Janson

The competition thing, you know?

Larry Heard

Oh yeah, there is always competition in business. I mean, if I’m selling shirts and you are selling shirts, we are automatically in a competition, so that’s just a natural part of it. But actually, the funny thing about DJ International and Trax is, they started off as a partnership, and they couldn’t keep from betraying each other. That’s why it turned into two labels.

All those stories we’ve heard over the years about the craftiness and some of the business tactics of those guys, they started doing those things to each other, and that is what kind of a separated them into two labels. Because, actually, Rocky Jones, who ran DJ International, he was doing the label and Larry Sherman had the pressing plant, so he was doing the pressing for him. And Larry Sherman would bootleg Rocky’s records before they even got out on the street and undercut him, so that’s how it turned into two labels. So, the warning signs were there right from the beginning, but we didn’t know the inner workings of what was going on until years later.

Gerd Janson

So, you didn’t get really all the royalties you should have, right?

Larry Heard

No, the things I did on Trax and DJ International, we got good amounts from him. It is a far cry from what producers and artists can look forward to receiving right now. Because I definitely got numerous tens of thousands of dollars from Larry Sherman for one song, but these days you are lucky if you get $100 as an advance for a release, so we didn’t come out of it in the poor house, no.

Gerd Janson

So, all those stories about the shady business tactics of Larry Sherman are...?

Larry Heard

The stories are true… They can be blown out of proportion. Because it’s not like even... Like right now, I still have the advantage of where I’m still doing releases and DJ International is not. And I’m still doing releases and who cares about what Trax is doing in 2005? Their whole legacy is like 1986, 1987 and that’s what they have to survive on, because nobody would trust them with any real good music. They’ll give them their throwaway material, just to kind of do something with the label, just for the sake of doing it.

Gerd Janson

But you put “Mystery of Love” originally out on your own label, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, that came out on Alleviated, that was Alleviated’s first release.

Gerd Janson

And then you licensed it to DJ International?

Larry Heard

No, I didn’t, I re-recorded it. It ended up being a totally different version, because the thing I did, it was done at home, I don’t know if it was a reel-to-reel or a cassette or something like that, but it was something very low budget, very nuts-and-bolts kind of a thing, and so I don’t think the recording quality was up to what they were trying to release, so we went into a studio and did another rendition of it. And the third time, I included Robert [Owens] on it, doing the spoken part at the beginning and the singing at the end.

Gerd Janson

So maybe we should listen to the other version then, if you...?

Larry Heard

Yes, I totally forgot about the other one.

Gerd Janson

If you can find it.

Larry Heard

Yeah, it’s so hard to find everything in here, it’s so much music. What song am I looking for?

Gerd Janson

“Mystery of Love.”

Larry Heard

I just don’t know if it’s going to be the right version or the initial version, it will be one of them.

Gerd Janson

Any version is fine.

Larry Heard

But the first one is just special for me, it just holds the essence of what I was doing, what just naturally flowed out of me. The next ones ended up being more rehearsed, so I don’t really feel the same intensity in those versions, but that’s showbiz, I guess.

(music: Fingers Inc. – “Mystery of Love” / applause)

Gerd Janson

When did this version of this timeless piece of house music come out ?

Larry Heard

About 1986, yeah, that was the DJ International release.

Gerd Janson

And this was the version that came to the most prominence, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah. The thing that I kind of rationalized out for myself was... me doing Alleviated, I just basically had records in the trunk of my car and I could take them to the local record stores that I knew, but I didn’t have a plan as far as getting them outside of the boundaries of Chicago. So, that’s what I say when Robert Owens and Harry Dennis, who were actually the ones who knew something about DJ International and Trax, took me to meetings with those guys and I felt that at least they can get it outside of the boundaries of the city. I just didn’t really think that far ahead, it was just me coming from being a drummer to being thrust into the position of a label CEO, it wasn’t really what I was expecting. It’s just what happened at the time, so I didn’t have any plan. That’s where DJ International and Trax did help me out, despite all the horror stories, you know, I did something get out of it that I wanted.

Gerd Janson

You just mentioned Robert Owens and Harry Dennis, how did you get in touch with those guys?

Larry Heard

Actually, it was the same guy in my neighborhood who told me about the Warehouse, who actually introduced me to a DJ named Tony Harris who lived around the corner from where my mother lived. So I went and met him and kind of was talking with him and was asking about some of the parties going on around town – they were playing, at that time, disco music, it was kind of at the end of the disco era – and I started to go to some events and just do my research and find out what was going on. Because, prior to that, all I was really familiar with was like the biggest hits like the Bee Gees and Donna Summer, Chic, those kind of groups. And the clubs, of course, were taking it a lot of steps further and maybe not even just one, so I had to go out and see what was going on. I ended up meeting Robert Owens at one of the parties that I went to. Tony Harris introduced me to him, and we started talking, he was telling me about him being a vocalist and things like that and we just exchanged information and just kind of coordinated getting together. And when we did that, on that first day we recorded our prototype to “A Path”. Because I think he was kind of in a similar situation as myself where his creative ideas were being stifled because he had a lot of people who were telling him that he couldn’t sing, that he never would amount to anything and things like that. And for me, being the drummer in the band, and the other musicians not being receptive to the ideas, we just had all of these bottled up ideas so it was a perfect coming together of likeminded individuals and that’s why it just took off so quickly. I had tons of ideas and he had tons of ideas and we put our ideas together.

Gerd Janson

And you formed Fingers Inc. then, right?

Larry Heard

The name thing is another tricky issue, because it started off as Loose Fingers, my little brothers made up this whole Loose Fingers thing. It goes back to my tendency to grab an instrument and start faking like I knew how to play it, get on the piano and fake like I’m playing something, so I would always move my fingers fast and they started saying this “loose fingers” thing. And then when I put a record out and that’s what I ended up using for the artist name, because I didn’t know what the response was going to this stuff – it’s off the wall – and I didn’t know anything about the music business other than I hear records and I buy them, that’s pretty much the extent of what I knew. And that’s why I used that name, as like a safety net. If it turned out to be a total embarrassment, I can actually hide and say I don’t know who that Loose Fingers is. And it was modified to Mr. Fingers within one release, really. And then modified to Fingers Inc. when I teamed up with Robert.

Gerd Janson

Were you also a DJ back then already?

Larry Heard

No, I was kind of new to the whole culture, I think. I started to pay more attention, because we had disco music and early electronic music that was already on the radio, but it just made me focus a little bit more or intentionally pay attention and... what was the question?

Gerd Janson

If you were a DJ back then.

Larry Heard

No, I wasn’t a DJ. But the mixes, I think, was the thing that got me curious about how that worked, the principles behind blending the two records together. Me being a drummer, I played in bands with two drummers, so I was like, “OK, it’s got to be just like that. So I think I can do it if I get my hands on some turntables, get all the tools I need,” and it turned out that that was true. Once I got my hands on them and I could figure it out, and I just started doing it from that point for my own fun. In my research, of course, I was starting to buy 12” records, stuff I was hearing in the mixes. I recorded the mix and get my Walkman and go down to the record store and ask the guys, “What’s this and what’s this and what’s this?” and buy things and I would come home and do my experimentation and see can I do what Farley “Jackmaster” Funk does and all these guys on the radio? So, that’s where that started.

Gerd Janson

Farley “Jackmaster Funk” and the radio, this was WBMX, right? Maybe you can talk a little bit about the importance of radio in Chicago back then.

Larry Heard

Well, radio was just as important then as it is now. If you want people to hear what you are doing, they have to have a form where they have access to it. I think that the timing played a key role in the willingness to put on music that was a little outside of the norm or the acceptable standard at the time, because FM [was kind of new. So, they would typically play like whole album sides on FM radio, because you got stereo now as opposed to AM, and you play a whole rock album, a whole jazz album and things like that, you play the whole 16-minute version of Donna Summer and things like that. So it was more the kind of audiophile’s place to hear music. And they were competing against AM, which was the standard at the time and people were just so accustomed to their transistor radio, they just had AM on, they didn’t have FM. So they had liberty to take all kinds of chances back then and they were the ones that – in response to some of the college stations in Chicago who had these mixed shows on with guys who were not known but doing the same things as Farley and Frankie Knuckles and Hot Mix 5 guys, and they had the things that they were doing on the college station – and all of the stations started to notice on certain days, at certain times, that all of their audience would disappear and they would go to these college stations. And so FM radio was the one who decided, “OK, we need to get some guys who do this on our station,” which was brave at the time. And that’s where the whole Hot Mix 5 concept originated.

Gerd Janson

Hot Mix 5 were Ralphi Rosario, Farley “Jackmaster” Funk, and who else?

Larry Heard

Mickey “Mixin” Oliver, Scott “Smokin” Silz... that’s four …

Gerd Janson

Yeah.

Larry Heard

I’m not remembering. It’s probably easy, but I’m just not remembering who the fifth person is right now.

Gerd Janson

And those were mix shows with nothing else but what was being called house music already in Chicago.

Larry Heard

It wasn’t being called house music, that didn’t start until later the media got a hold of it, and it has to have some identifying title when they get it. We were just listening to these cool records from all around the world. We hadn’t dubbed it anything at the time. It was just that show where they played all those records and you tape it and you run to the record store the next day to find the things you want to get.

Gerd Janson

Do you have something with you that is some sort of classic WBMX disco song?

Larry Heard

Classic WBMX, well, wow.

(music: Chip E – “Time To Jack”)

(music: Savage Progress – “Heart Begin To Beat”)

(music: One Way – “Music” / applause)

Gerd Janson

So, those three tracks are pretty much some sort of essence of what was going on in Chicago back then?

Larry Heard

Yes, they are incomplete, because there was a lot of stuff that was coming out of like Belgium, Spain, Holland, Germany, and those were actually the predecessors of the things that started to happen in Chicago and Detroit, and New York, of course, always had its own kind of thing going on because of the amount of distance, us being in the Midwest and them being on the East Coast, they had their own kind of approach.

Gerd Janson

So we just listened to Chip E “Time To Jack,” right? The other one was Savage Progress “Heart Begins To Beat,” and the last one was One Way “Music,” right?

Larry Heard

Yeah.

Gerd Janson

And you mentioned Italo disco and all that kind of stuff and this was much more important for Chicago than it was for, for instance, New York. And do you know why?

Larry Heard

Well, that’s what we were hearing. It was not like we were the ones, you know, telling the radio what to play, that’s what was being played before us. So, that was someone else’s decision, people, program directors at the stations in our region, so maybe in Detroit the program directors just had different ideas.

Gerd Janson

I’m just asking because some of these Italo tracks have pretty strange lyrics to English ears because the lyrics don’t always make sense, right?

Larry Heard

Is that a question?

Gerd Janson

Yeah, that is a question. Why was it like that?

Larry Heard

Oh, I don’t know, that would be a question for the artist to answer.

Gerd Janson

No, why people responded to that kind of stuff?

Larry Heard

Well, the music, the rhythmic stuff that was going on – it was in the melodies and things like that, you know? Because we just responded on a primal level, just like when I was a little kid. I mean, it’s not like I knew anything about chords and scales and progressions and things like that, all I knew was, I like it or I don’t. So, the same thing applies to the masses, they don’t have any musical knowledge, but they know what they like when they hear it. And that was the case with these records we were hearing.

Gerd Janson

And in respects to your own career, what went on after “Mystery of Love”?

Larry Heard

It was a pretty quick progress because by the time “Mystery of Love” was on the streets, Robert and I had worked up tons and tons of other things and we were trying to figure out ways of getting some of those things out on the streets, so hence comes some of the alter ego names that I was starting to get different projects out on the street: Gherkin Jerks, The It, and House Factor – all these different names I started making up at the time, which is inspired by George Clinton, because I saw him doing that, so it was like, “That could work.”

Gerd Janson

So, that’s the explanation for all the different monikers you used? George Clinton?

Larry Heard

Yes, there is nothing complicated or a deep philosophical thing, it’s just a way of getting more things out because I had a whole lot of material.

Gerd Janson

And during the end of the ’80s and the beginning of the ’90s you also got a major record deal with MCA?

Larry Heard

I think probably around ’88, which is pretty quick once again, from the scene really kind of taking off and blossoming in Chicago in ’86. And of course New York is a hop, skip and a jump away and Miami, so those were the three spots where I was really starting to take off. Of course, the label started to notice, when I have “Mystery of Love” on the charts right next to “What Have You Done For Me Lately.” And A&M notices and thinks, “What is this song?” I’m sure they took a great offense to it because there was a much larger investment involved in getting these big-name artists on these charts, and the next thing you know, these guys making songs in their basements are on the charts right alongside of them. So, they tried to come in. I think actually the first artist to get signed was Adeva out of New York and, I think, Blaze was pretty quick right near the beginnings of that. And Jovonn, even though the album didn’t come out, he got signed by Warner Bros and it kind of went in little increments like that, whereas the next one being like Ten City with Atlantic.

And then, of course, I was always kind of this misunderstood character, where people were like, “Can we even approach this guy? Because you never see him, he doesn’t really talk a whole lot to people, he just kind of more observes everything that’s going on.” So, I had some people kind of stand-offish about me, and Sony Music was interested and they were calling around and saying, “What’s this guy like? Is he one of these fanatical artist people where he won’t do what we need him to do because of this whole artistic thing?” And Capitol and Warner Bros, of course each one of them had a different concept about the changes they were already going to start to make. Because Warner Bros was going to replace Ron Wilson with Arnold Jarvis, which would have been cool, but I didn’t feel all that comfortable with them all coming in and changing a person that I picked to be in the project that I kind of originated, so I didn’t really like that a whole lot.

So, it took a minute for somebody to come around who kind of understood what I wanted to do, and I also wanted continue doing the label thing that I started doing a few years earlier, and so MCA was the one that said, “We will do a label deal in addition to the artist deal.” And the [Introduction] album was already recorded, so it was just a matter of giving the master mixes to them and them getting it out.

Gerd Janson

And do you have an example with you of one of the songs of Introduction? Because it was a step further for you, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, this will be maybe about five years into kind of developing my composition skills and production skills.

(music: Mr. Fingers – “What About This Love”/ applause)

Gerd Janson

So this song was completely done by you, right, in terms of lyrics, vocals?

Larry Heard

Yeah, it was actually a milestone for me, it was the first song that I sang the lead vocals to. But actually there is an interesting story behind it, because David Hollister was the one who was planned to sing the song, but he didn’t show up at the studio that day and so I just ended up laying down a rough vocal track, so I could remember the basic melody I had thought of for the lyrics, and pretty much everybody that was present at the studio that day was saying that they liked what I had done and thought I should probably keep it that way. To my good fortune I took their advice and we actually released this as a single, even before the MCA deal, because this was done. This dated back to 1989 when I did this one, which is a couple of years before I did the MCA deal, and it actually started a bidding war because this one ended up on the chart tight next to “Been Around The World” [by Lisa Stansfield] and stuff like that. And so, all these labels were wondering once again, “Here are these guys, these basement guys, come and getting right on the chart next to our big artist that we put a million dollars behind.” So, companies started coming with bids at that point…

Gerd Janson

What were your final experiences with dealing with a major label?

Larry Heard

I didn’t like it because you are kind of turned into an employee when you’re a signed artist to a label, as opposed to this capacity that I gotten used to – even though I stumbled into it, I had gotten accustomed to the idea of having control over when releases come out, what releases come out, what they sound like, and I didn’t have anybody telling me, “Well, do this, do that, make it sound like Teddy Riley or make it sound like this or something like that,” you know? So, I enjoyed having that freedom, and I started to see myself losing that with the major labels.

Gerd Janson

So, you would always suggest to a young kid when getting into music and releasing music to start his own label?

Larry Heard

I mean, if you have the means to do that – if you have money to invest in manufacturing your 12”s or CDs or whatever medium you chose to put out – if you can do that, it’s a great learning experience, as far as the inner workings of selling recorded music. But if you want to just go right straight to the like Eminem thing or Destiny’s Child thing, I guess you will do have to do deal with the majors because you will need their influence as far as radio and television and things like that. So, I enjoy the freedom as opposed to the large financial game, personally.

Gerd Janson

Speaking of Eminem, what probably most people don’t know is that you have also done a few hip-hop beats in your life.

Larry Heard

Yeah, I have done a lot, actually. I had so many close calls with people where they were thinking about connecting with me to do something, but for some reason this cloud has always hung over me that where people think I’m inaccessible and so they say, “Oh, we want to work with this guy, but who knows how to get in touch with him, he’s so mysterious,” you know? And actually Common Sense was one of those guys, Crucial Conflict, [Twista], some of those early guys. And some of the people, that were doing some kind of support work for them were students of mine, where I always take a couple of people under my wing and kind of teach them a little bit about different production styles – and it would help me at the same time; while they are asking me questions, then I have a reason to learn it so I can give them an answer. So, it was kind of a two-way thing where I learned something and I shared something, and some of them work with some of the artists out of Chicago.

Gerd Janson

And Common Sense is known as?

Larry Heard

Mmh?

Gerd Janson

As Common today, right? Common Sense, you mentioned him, is known as Common today.

Larry Heard

Yeah.

Gerd Janson

And you brought some of those hip-hop beats with you, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah. I’ve got a few here. They are old, you know, this is maybe about ten years back now. I really took some time, did my experimenting around doing some hip-hop demos for some guys. (music: Larry Heard – Unknown / applause)

That kind of would have been more like a DJ Premier kind of…

Gerd Janson

So, it’s so hard in this hip-hop business… is this one of the reasons why this stuff never saw the light of the day? It was all unreleased, right?

Larry Heard

Yes, it’s unreleased. I was just doing really a demo for these guys because they were trying to pursue their thing. Chicago had its kind of blossoming... Well, it had a hip-hop scene, but it wasn’t as visible as LA or New York. So there were people there, of course they were inspired by the things they were hearing and what people do in other parts of the country. But just like the guys said in the label: no Russell [Simmons], no Puff Daddys and stuff like that in Chicago. So, they were pretty much on their own, you know, and a lot of people did not end up achieving much of anything.

Gerd Janson

And I have to get back to the ’80s in Chicago once again, because what is your take on the term house music? There are so many different stories about this. How did it come up?

Larry Heard

What is my take on it? I don’t really have a take. I know what it is. It’s just the term that is coined to kind of encapsulate this thing that we are talking about. Just as we like to refer to tomatoes and lettuce as vegetables, we kind of put titles on things to help people get a handle on what it is what we are discussing.

Gerd Janson

And it came from The Warehouse then, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, so that whole Warehouse, that “house” part of it was kind of adapted for the name of the style.

Gerd Janson

And if we’re are talking about terms, who is “Jack” and what is he all about?

Larry Heard

I don’t know who Jack is. (laughs) Jack is a fictional character that some guy made up. I don’t know who he is.

Gerd Janson

But you don’t know how this came up?

Larry Heard

No, I don’t know. That kind of goes back to some of the Hot Mix things on the radio, where in addition to beat mixing records, they would sometimes play acapellas and things on top of records – Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Maya Angelou and Angela Davis were popular once for DJs to play. And this particular guy, Chuck Roberts I think, just made up this speech that was very reminiscent of a Cinnamon thing, I think… something that was on Jive Records, I can’t really recall the title of it in my head, and that was his little speech that became legendary. But there is no real person Jack, to my knowledge.

Gerd Janson

And someone took this speech and put it on a track of yours?

Larry Heard

Yeah, he put in on top of “Can You Feel It,” among others, but that was the one that ended up coming out in various bootlegs and things like that.

(music: Fingers Inc. – “Can You Feel It” / applause)

Gerd Janson

Do you remember the day you produced “Can You Feel It”?

Larry Heard

I just remember that it was in the winter and at that time I was living in this apartment that had these really big windows, kind of a loft place, and I had a view of downtown Chicago and it was snowing. All of my friends that were over that night, they all remember that visual of the snow falling and this music playing. And actually a friend of mine gave the song its title, because I couldn’t think of what to call it. That actually happened a lot that I asked friends to name the song for me. So, sometime in the winter of ’85.

Gerd Janson

Makes sense to me. And this song also characterizes maybe the Summer Of Love on a little island called England in the late ’80s, and did you experience that too? Because I think you toured Europe with Fingers Inc. back then, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, but I don’t know if we were getting around to all of the parties that were going on. And of course, us just coming over for a couple of weeks, we wouldn’t be able to experience what they are experiencing year-round. So, I can’t say that I fully experienced it.

Gerd Janson

But you played at places like the Hacienda in Manchester, right?

Larry Heard

Yeah, and The Hippodrome, The Fridge and some of those old clubs. I don’t know if they are still around now.

Gerd Janson

And how did you feel about that coming from Chicago, flying over to Europe and seeing all those kids totally losing it to your music?

Larry Heard

Well, of course it is very encouraging to see that happening. But everything was happening so fast because, between me getting my handle on operating a label and acting in that capacity and composing and producing stuff and kind of helping Robert [Owens] out with the live shows and things like that, there were just so many things going on that you didn’t really have time to sit back and just think about everything. We were so busy doing things that we had no time to think until after you finished all the things that were going on, so I didn’t really have any conscious thoughts other than it being cool to me and just getting a glimpse into what guys like the Jackson 5 had experienced and things like that. That was very cool, but for me it wasn’t really what my goal was as an individual. I think Robert was more the person who was interested in being out front, and me, I’m kind of a support person. Like the characteristic of my decision to play drums in the band, where I am an integral part but I’m in the background, I wasn’t really all that interested in being in the front. But it’s a cool experience to go and kind of set the tone for all of the people who started to travel internationally after that. Because we were a kind of England’s first encounter with neighborhoods. Prior to us coming the caliber of artists that had been over there were like Curtis Mayfield, The Temptations, Earth, Wind and Fire, you know, these big artists. So they had a certain amount of apprehension, and I had people down right scared of me because of movies like Menace II Society and Boyz N The Hood and all this stuff was out there, giving them an impression of what … especially black youth were like in America. So, we had a lot of people, they were very standoffish, I got called raggamuffin a whole lot and had to find out what that meant, it was like troublemaker (laughs).

Gerd Janson

But you are not really a menace to society?

Larry Heard

No, no, I’m cool. I’m a peaceful person here.

audience member

The bassline from “Can You Feel It,” what synth did you use, and what preset – what’s the secret to that fat sound?

Larry Heard

That was the Roland Juno 2, I think. Yeah, Juno 2. It wasn’t even a MIDI keyboard, it was just kind of an old-school synthesizer.

audience member

You had to play it?

Larry Heard

Yeah, I played it by hand.

audience member

Respect!

Gerd Janson

And did you know back then that you created a timeless classic piece of dance music?

Larry Heard

Oh no, there is no way to know upfront if you are doing something, you just really aim to do something that people like, and, you know, get something that has a longevity to it, that’s great. But you can’t really plan that upfront or everybody’s record would be a timeless classic, if you could just orchestrate that yourself. It’s something that the people listening to it decide. I couldn’t decide it.

Gerd Janson

So how is your approach to songwriting then?

Larry Heard

Free flow, very organic. I don’t really go in the studio trying to do anything in particular. I go in there, say I’m going to do something, and if it works out, cool, if it doesn’t, cool too. I will just try again tomorrow. Because that’s what I pretty much do when I’m at home, I’m in the studio every day of the week, so I have plenty of opportunities to kind of sit there and come up with an idea.

Gerd Janson

So, you relocated during the mid-’90s or during the end of the ’90s from Chicago to Memphis, Tennessee. So, what were your reasons for that, leaving one of the centers [of house music]?

Larry Heard

I just needed to get away, I needed a different backdrop. Once again, my personality type comes into play, where me being kind of a low-key laid back person, and now I’m thrusted into this stuff that to me feels like it’s spinning out of control, because first of all it wasn’t planned but even though it’s happening, I’m trying to keep pace with it and keep my sanity at the same time. And I felt myself losing it. I can definitely understand, you know, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin and these people who cured it with drugs. I had to do something before I self-destructed, I had to get away and get somewhere peaceful where I could think and take stock of what was going on in my own personal goals.

Gerd Janson

And you are pretty much busy to this day with making and releasing music, because I remembered during the mid-’90s or so, there were all these stories circulating around you that Mr. Fingers had stopped making music and doesn’t want to be related to music anymore?

Larry Heard

Well, that is just another one of those instances of the media taking a statement and overblowing it. It’s like a person who works as a teacher or garbage man or doctor, they take a break, they take what’s called a vacation, and that’s what I was trying to do. I guess my mistake was mentioning it at all, that probably would have solved everything, but it’s just a classic example of one of the reasons why I tend to be standoffish when it comes to the media, because they never convey what you were actually conveying.

audience member

If I go to a family get-together and an uncle of mine asks what I’m doing, what I’m playing or what I’m making, it’s hard to tell, it’s hard to call it house music or disco, electro, it’s hard to give a name. It’s just dance music for my part. So, what would you have said in 1984 when the house music was not really born as house music. What did you say?

Larry Heard

I would have said I make some music. I make my own little music track here, but the thing that kind of allows the person who is listening to have their freedom is to just let them just hear it and let them decide what it is, you know, for their own practical uses.

audience member

Was it dance music from the beginning?

Larry Heard

Yeah, it was dance music, that’s the purpose of the simplistic four-on-the-floor drumbeat. That’s the easiest universal one for the people to understand – very elementary and anybody can get it and get on the beat and dance.

audience member

The sample use in your hip-hop productions is pretty obvious.

Larry Heard

The what?

Gerd Janson

The use of samples. The Al Green drum break, for instance. Do you use any samples in your house productions too?

Larry Heard

Not typically, it will be more things that... say, I have like a chorus or something that I need repeated but I don’t really feel up to singing it the numerous different times, I sample stuff like that and place it where it needs to be in the track. But as far as sampling other people’s tracks or things like that, I’m not really into that thing. I think it’s disrespectful. Personally, with my kind of background going into playing music and trying to attain a certain level of proficiency on an instrument, you would know what people go through learning an instrument. You can understand Chick Corea, how much time he had to put in, and Stanley Clarke and Al Di Meola – these great legendary people – and I don’t feel comfortable doing that, and I take a great deal of pride knowing that I created something from nothing, which is what the definition of creating is. And you can be creative with samples, but creating is taking nothing and making something.

audience member

Thank you.

Larry Heard

Still trying to find this song, let’s see. [flips through CD booklet]

audience member

Hi, Larry. I wanted to ask you, because when I hear your songs, one thing that always gets me about them is they are just so warm and emotive – like the strings are very emotive, maybe they sound like an old soul record somehow but it’s all electronic – and I just wondered if… I know it’s pretty hard sometimes to explain how you did that, and I don’t even know if you know how you did that, but if there is any way you can impart on us some of how you got that richness into it?

Larry Heard

I don’t really can say that I have a technical way that I approach it but I do kind of find my sound that’s kind of near what I want or what I think in my head or picturing in my head, and I actually alter the sounds. A lot of the sounds that you hear on the records I do, they are not the factory sounds that come out of these units. I get them modified to kind of really fit into the architecture of what I’m trying to do. Actually, the sounds kind of direct me as far as what’s going to happen, and then I just modify them to really fit better, in my humble opinion, into what I’m doing.

audience member

I’m trying to imagine how you would start writing something. I can’t imagine how you sit there and actually write those songs, do you see what I mean?

Larry Heard

I can tell you, I’m the butt of a lot of jokes among the people who know me, because they know the way I work, and there is no structure to it. Even some of the guys that we were with upstairs doing some sessions yesterday, they may have got a glimpse into it like, “It doesn’t seem like this guy does anything intentionally, he just gets on the equipment and just starts doing something.” And that’s exactly what I do.

audience member

So, do you just switch off the thinking a bit and just go?

Larry Heard

Yeah, I hate to have to think too much because then it turns into work. And I want the music to be a pleasurable experience and, I think even on a primal level, that’s conveyed to people. We have a component of our being called intuition and I think people pick up on the tension or that kind of thing in music, and it can either attract or repel you.

audience member

When you are writing those songs as well, I mean, would it be something that – you would have all the equipment set up, OK… would you kind of have to have the whole song done in one take kind of thing, dropped off on to a perfect mix the first time? Or were you able to multitrack and go back and correct mistakes?

Larry Heard

Well, at the beginning it was all just before DATs and all those other new digital mediums, so I was doing things on cassette tapes and reel-to-reels and there wasn’t much room for doing any overdubs. So, I would maybe do one part on the reel and capture the bassline and the basic chords... For a song like “Can You Feel It,” I captured the drum pattern that I programmed and the bassline and the chords, and then some of the other stuff that is on top, I dubbed to a cassette, which was the only thing I had as far as recording, and put the other little lines on the top. And that cassette was the master recording of that song (laughing).

audience member

So, “Can You Feel It” is just two tracks in a way?

Larry Heard

Yeah, and “Bring Down the Walls” is actually a one take thing and “Never No More Lonely,” some of those things [are one take] because me and Robert just got together and just kind of have fun with music. And every once in a while we would just capture something where we just pressed the record button and something good came out like “Bring Down the Walls,” and we had captured it and we didn’t even attempt to go in and refine it or anything like that. It was like, “No, this is the track.”

audience member

Was it a kind of “the first cut is the deepest” mentality, I mean a bit like reggae? It was kind of like: you are in the studio, you jammed it out and then you tried to leave it.

Larry Heard

Yeah, it was like the James Brown way of doing things; they just go in the studio and jam, and what we end up hearing is like an edited down portion of those jam sessions. And we were kind of doing the same thing with very little structure, as far as approach.

audience member

And I guess it’s kind of a last one for me, but how do you feel when you hear tracks that kind of rip off “Can You Feel It” or some of the other really big classics in a very blatant way?

Larry Heard

Well, it’s hard to be impressed. I’m more impressed when I hear somebody’s original material and it gives me a connection with them. A lot of times, even if you have a song that is sampled, I have a tendency to where my attention will focus on that original artist and then I don’t really have a connection with the new person. I’m into the Marvin Gaye sample or whoever it may be. So, it has a tendency to work in reverse for me.

Gerd Janson

Speaking of Robert Owens, are you still in touch with him and making music with him?

Larry Heard

We haven’t been able to do any music, my living in Memphis and him living in London makes that a pretty big challenge, but I talk to him all the time. I talked to him a couple of weeks ago, we always stay in touch. I mean, we have a lot of songs that we control jointly, so we do a lot of business together and have to stay in communication to make sure everything is done to each individual’s satisfaction, you know?

Gerd Janson

And it would be really nice to hear the song you did with him on the same day as “Bring Down the Walls,” if you can dig it up?

Larry Heard

[scans his folders] If I had a better system, as far as finding these things, it wouldn’t take us so long here. OK, there it is.

(music: Fingers Inc. – Untitled / applause)

Gerd Janson

So, when will this come out then?

Larry Heard

When will it come out? (laughs) I don’t know, because we did this on the same day as “Bring Down the Walls,” which was like in 1986, where we just kind of were fooling around and living and just recording the session, so I couldn’t tell you. I couldn’t even guess. We are trying, we are trying our best, but since I fund the label out of my own pocket, and I’m not Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey or somebody like that, there are limitations to what I’m able to do and I have to pace myself to where I don’t bankrupt myself, where the whole thing has to end. So, hopefully, I’ll try, but I can’t tell you when.

Gerd Janson

Fingers crossed. So, it’s not easy to run your own label these days and make a living out of it…

Larry Heard

It’s not easy, but it can be done. I mean, as I am living proof of it and a whole lot of people who run small labels. It’s just how you approach things, how realistic you are about how much you can invest and, you know, making a product people will be able to comprehend and receive and want to buy. You just have to be for real with yourself.

Gerd Janson

OK, do we have any other questions? No? Then I would like to thank Larry Heard very much.