Frankie Knuckles

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

OK, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the second lecture today, our afternoon lecture. We’re very excited to have this gentleman here. He’s known throughout the galaxies as the Godfather of House, as well as in Spain. So, please join me in welcoming Mr. Frankie Knuckles. [applause]

Have you ever had issues with the visual accompaniments to one of your parties not being up to par?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

[laughs] It happens to me all the time.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So how do you handle that?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I close my eyes and listen to the beat.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So much to talk about, but your career obviously has spanned a number of different eras and areas — DJing, remixing, production. If you had to choose one, is there one that’s closer to your heart than the others?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, they go hand in hand. I can’t do one without the other. I’m fortunate enough to have a dancefloor all around the world that I can test my material on, that’s a real big plus. But if I had to choose one before the other, I don’t think I could. Because if I choose production, then I don’t have a dancefloor to test it out on. If I choose the dancefloor and not the production, then what have I got other than what everyone else has given me? There’s nothing wrong with that, but I kind of like my stuff too. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Speaking of your stuff, we’ll start and play a little bit of music to get us in the mood. This is something you did a couple of years ago, which you’ve actually… we’ll get the story behind it after we hear a little bit, and how it may have affected your life in different ways. This is something by Hercules & Love Affair and it’s entitled “Blind,” and this is the Frankie Knuckles remix.

(music: Hercules & Love Affair – “Blind (Frankie Knuckles Remix)” / applause)

You just leaned over and said you haven’t listened to that in a minute.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It’s been a while.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

But this is not that old either.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, it’s not that old, but it’s been a while since I’ve listened to it.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So what goes through your head when you listen to that now?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

There’s a small story about this record. Before I started working on it, the group approached me about a year before it actually got released about doing it. I was beginning to have some health issues that took me out of the business for a little while. I put it on the back burner. I told them, “I’d love to do it but I’ve got to look after me for right now.” They said they would wait. I was out for about six months, then I had another three months of rehabilitation to get back up on my feet if you will. Then I was getting ready to head back out on the road when they came at me again and asked me if I would do the mix. I thought in nine months, surely they’d have given up on me and moved on someone else, but they came back to me and asked me if I’d do it. They waited nine months, I had to do it.

I thought, “Let me go ahead and knock this out.” I really wasn’t into it. But I thought I’d just knock it out, so I did. Then I was on the road and gone for a couple of months. Then I landed in Greece and I was playing a club in Athens and someone came up and asked me to play it, which I was surprised about. I didn’t think anything about the song. I just did it, gave them the song and then I left. I asked him, “How do you know about it?” “It’s everywhere, everybody’s into it.” And I had no idea. This is how things happen. You can work on a piece of music and the minute it’s out of your hands, it’s out in the universe and then all of a sudden someone will sneak up on you and ask you to play it. And you have no idea that it’s there. The minute I put it on, the whole room erupted. I had no idea that people knew what it was.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You said you knocked it out and hit the road, so it was kind of an afterthought to you?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It really was an afterthought. I had stopped producing for about ten years before that, only because I didn’t see a place for myself in the industry anymore, not for the kind of music I liked to make. So I pretty much gave up on it. When the group came after me to do it, I kept saying, “Are you sure? People are not into what I do musically.” They said, “That’s the point. It’s been missing for too long. You need to do this for us.” I didn’t know these kids any more than I know anybody else in this room. But I thought, “If you want me that bad, OK, fine. I’ll do it.” But I just did it and I didn’t give it a second thought and I left and went out on the road.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

But, as you just said, this is a nice example of something that’s contemporary. It bridges the classic sound with…

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I didn’t know, I didn’t know. Probably, like so many of you in this room, you’re very passionate about the music you make and the music you play and you have a personal affinity to it. But how you feel about it, there’s a voice in the back of your head that says the same thing, that, “Well, this is how I feel about it. I know nobody else feels the same way. I’m personally attached, I’m close to it, I can’t imagine anyone else will be this close to it.” That’s if you’re thinking sensibly. That’s just how I felt about it. But I just didn’t see a place for myself in the industry at that point, so I just figured I’ll take my act on the road until times get better. Maybe it’ll come back around. This particular song was the coming back around.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

It had to be pretty gratifying then.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It is now. [laughs] It is now.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

In terms of approach, what’s your mindset? You’ve done so many remixes over the years, what’s your approach when you’re approached about doing something? How much do you take liberty-wise with the original material? How do you tackle it?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I think I’m really fortunate because most artists or other producers who handed material for me to play with – that’s what I call it, not just mixing it up, they give me an opportunity to play around with it – they trust me with their material. I look for the magic in the song, first of all. Usually, the magic is there in the performance that whoever is singing is giving. If I hear that magic, then it’s easy for me to find what direction to go in with it and how to build the foundations, an even stronger foundation underneath the song, which is what I call it. It’s easy to separate what you’re building as a track versus what they’re doing as a performance. But the challenge is in complementing that person’s singing. I’d rather do that than just do me. To me, it’s more important to do that for them. It garners you greater acceptance, you challenge yourself in the process and you learn something new. And I’ve learned something new on every song or remixed or produced. That’s the thing I look forward to.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Who schooled you to come to that approach? How did you get to that point?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It’s a process; it was all a part of my growing up. OK, here we go. Back in the ‘70s and the ‘80s, the dark ages, we used to have these things called 12-inch vinyl pieces and albums, or LPs if you will. And one of the great things about it is, not only could you look at the cover art, but you could read the liner notes on the back, which basically told you who produced which song, who arranged it, who was in the orchestra, who was in the rhythm section, who the engineers were, who the assistant engineers were. This is what we did as DJs back in the ’70s and ’80s. It taught you a lot about your music and what you were doing. But before production, I didn’t realize it was actually educating me and getting me ready for this. But I learned a lot about who the great musicians were and the great engineers. So by the time I did get involved in this, then I knew exactly what to seek out in an engineer if I couldn’t work with any of those great guys. But when you start getting remix projects that was engineered by these great guys, then you can sit back and dissect what they did and find out how they did it. It’s all a learning process. Now, it’s not so much a collective effort as it was back then. For the most part, a lot of you guys are working on your own in your bedroom. You’re learning Ableton and doing things that way.

But I don’t know how much fun it is working by yourself versus working with a group of people around you who are there for you. You’ve got the engineers helping you shape your sound and perfecting it, and then you’ve got background singers that are hanging on every note you got for them; and you’ve got someone as big as Luther Vandross or Michael Jackson sitting there saying, “Whatever you want, however you want it, I’ll stay here as long as you need me.” That’s the reward right there, every time you work with somebody like that. All the programmers I worked with were all classically trained musicians. They were teaching me music. I was teaching them house music. I was teaching them a different side of what it is they do. Infusing certain ideas, like playing a very, Debussy-esque piano over a very thick house track or bassline is something that blew their minds. It blew mine, too, but it’s something they never imagined and/or heard of before. But it was something new and we didn’t know if it would work or not, but it did.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Even though it’s only Wednesday, certain conversation that have come up all week have echoed this conversation as well about collaboration and working together.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It’s everything, I think. Two heads are always better than one. Sorry, but it is. You can have a great idea and I can feed off of it or vice versa. Then, he can come in the room. And she can come in the room and add something to it. Then, before you know it, it’s so much bigger than the original idea.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You’re from the South Bronx originally.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The Boogie Down.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Can you describe what the South Bronx was like when you were coming up in New York?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Do I really have to? [laughs] When I was coming up, rap hadn’t happened yet. That only happened after I left. But nothing special, really. I couldn’t wait to get out. The most special thing for me was that Luther Vandross grew up right across the street. We used to ride the subway going down to Manhattan going to school. I went to the High School of Art & Design, he went to Music & Art. So, usually when we reached 59th Street, he’d go right and I’d go left, but then we’d always meet up in the same place going back home. But that was the most special thing for me coming up in the Bronx.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

It was a tough time for New York City, more or less on the edge of bankruptcy and a lot of other things.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Yeah, it was about to go into default.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So the musical interest, how was it started originally?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I think it saved my life in some kind of way. It gave me a focus away from something that could possibly have taken me under. When you grow up in the inner city, like New York when things are as tough as they are – and I’m sure some of you guys’ neighborhoods or where you grew up at where it can be just as intense – if if you’ve got some kind of focus that will take your mind away from that – obviously, everybody here’s creative, that’s why you’re here – then that’s the thing that saves your life. And the thing that saves your life is the thing you should always concentrate on and the thing you should always try to make better. That’s my feeling.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Do you remember which music caught your ear and became a salvation for you?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

In the beginning, most of the music I played came out of Philadelphia. The songwriters for most of that music, Thom Bell, Linda Creed, who were in-house stock songwriters for everyone from the Stylistics to the Spinners to the O’Jays, all those different people. I was just deeply entrenched in everything that they did. On the other side, there was Nick Ashford and Valerie Simpson, who wrote everything on Motown in the earlier days. Their biggest record was “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough.” I met Thom Bell but I never met Linda Creed, she died a while ago. But Nick Ashford and Valerie Simpson ended up being my parents in this business pretty much, they’re like my father and my mother. Nick just died about a month ago, but I’ve had a very intense and close relationship with both of them. Some of the most prolific songwriters in the world, and just studying what they do up close and personal, even before I knew them. That’s when you know your life has come full circle — when early on, you’re playing these people’s music, then all of a sudden you become friends with them. They become your mentors and your teachers, and they guide you and they look at what you do and say, “You’ve got some great ideas and you’re really fierce with what you do, but I’m going to show you something even fiercer than what that is.” That’s the best for me and I’ve had people like that around me all my career.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

When was your first DJ gig? What was the club where you had a steady thing going?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It was primitive. [laughs] They wouldn’t appreciate me calling it primitive, but it was what it was. This was back in ‘71 in New York City in a club called Better Days. I wasn’t a DJ but a friend of mine offered me the job because he thought I could do it. The club was already open five days a week, but they were expanding to seven days. He asked me to do two days because he didn’t want to do it. I had no records, I didn’t think I could do it. He felt I could. I took the job. Six months later, I was out of the job, but it was enough to give me a taste of what it was, but I still didn’t think about it seriously. Larry Levan, who I grew up with, asked me to come and do lights for him in the club he was working at, Continental Baths. Doing lights for Larry and watching what he was doing up close, Larry would take these extended bathroom breaks where I’m forced to play records while he’s at the bathroom. You’re not thinking about it, how it’s coming together or the fact that this is what you want to do. But then all of a sudden you kind of fall into it happily by accident. Then you wake up one day and it’s five years later and you have to seriously make a decision. Back then, the life expectancy of a club DJ – and this will probably sound weird to you guys – was five years. You had five years to make it and move on. You’re not going to do this all your life because it wasn’t a career, a profession, as it is now. But you had five years to do it and have fun with it, then move on. I used to always tell Larry, “Listen, I’m not going to wake up one day and be 32 years old and still playing records.” Mind you, I was about 16/17 at the time. I said, “I’m not gonna wake up one day and be 32 years old and still doing this.” Well, the joke’s on me. That’s why they always say, “Man makes plans and God sits back and laughs.” I’m 56 years old today, and I’m still doing it. Things happen for whatever reason they do, but you wake up, it’s five years later, I’ve got to make a decision about what I’m doing. And before I know it, I’m in Chicago, we open up the Warehouse, I’ve got a piece of the business, I’m 20 years old and I’m just having a good time. That’s the only thing I was concerned about, having a good time and showing everybody a good time. A few years later, I reached a point where I have to think about the next logical step in this. You’re having a great time playing records and showing everybody a good time, but what’s the next logical step? How long can you continue to do this? That’s when I began to think about production.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Just to backtrack for a quick second. Before you had moved out to Chicago, who was responsible for bringing you out there and how did you meet that person?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

That is so busted. [laughs] You just really want to get a hold of my childhood.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO:

Well, you know, everyone does. I think it’s pretty compelling.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I don’t, but OK. [laughs] Larry Levan and I, when we were kids, we were real juvenile delinquents in every sense of the word. We meant nobody any harm, I promise you, but we were roughhouses. We were about 15, 16, we were at this nightclub where everybody was hanging out, and we managed to get inside. When it was over, everyone was hanging about outside like they usually do, and then everybody dispersed, so we were left alone. We were walking up the street from the club and there was this pastry truck sitting outside this restaurant on the corner. Larry had the bright idea of the both of us running into this truck and grabbing some donuts, ‘cause we were hungry. They had them all wrapped up and stacked up and tied up. He was obviously making his morning deliveries, this is about 5, 5:30 in the morning. So we run inside the truck, grab a couple of stacks and now we’re running up 2nd Avenue and we run smack into a police car.

Now, just to backtrack a little bit, there’s a friend of ours that used to hang out who was at the club that night, he used to be at all the parties, especially when we were at the Loft. His name was Robert Williams. So we run smack into this police car and we end up in central booking, downtown Manhattan, and because we’re juveniles, they send us to juvenile camp. And they would send us to juvenile camp in the South Bronx about two blocks away from my house. So we’re sitting in there, I’m nervous, I’m losing my mind, I’m crazy, I’m crying. Larry’s sitting back smoking a cigarette and can’t be bothered with none of it. All of a sudden, this guy walks in, who is a juvenile counsel to see us, and the person is Robert Williams. Robert Williams was the person who asked me about going up to Chicago to open the Warehouse with him and he ultimately became my business partner, just to kind of tie it all together so you know who’s who.

But he walked in and saw the both of us sitting there, asked what had happened. I was beside myself, couldn’t speak. I was a little sissy, what do you want? I couldn’t get it out. So, when he read the chart and saw what we were there for, he said, “You two are so stupid.” [laughter] So immediately, from that particular point on he took us under his wing, watched us very closely and made sure nothing happened to us. It seemed like we were in there for years but we were only in there for two weeks. When you’re a kid everything seems much longer than it actually is, but we had only been there for two weeks. Our parents wouldn’t come and get us because they figured, “Hey, listen. You were bold enough to do something as stupid as that. Pay the consequences and hopefully you will learn from it.” That’s the last time I was ever arrested for anything. But that’s how it started. What happened was Robert originally wanted Larry for the Warehouse, but at the time Larry was building the Garage. I was out of work, so I got lucky.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

I guess you were at the Loft that night.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Which night?

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

The night with the pastries.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, that wasn’t the Loft. We were at a club called Stage 45. It had no DJ, it had a jukebox. This is how far back it goes. It had to be like ‘70, ’71.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So, I guess it was from these legendary nightspots in New York that so many people read about now who weren’t there to experience. What did you bring away from those experiences in terms of your sensibility, your DJing, everything? Can you describe a little bit for folks who can only read about it or see some pictures online?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I don’t know how much I can bring to it. It would be so much easier to say, “You had to be there,” and then just take you there. I have people ask me all the time how much different is nightlife now versus back then, or how different a club is now from back then. A party is a party, no matter where you go. There are good parties and bad parties, good clubs and bad clubs. I think nightlife is pretty much the same. I think technology changes everything. Back in the day, you could go to the bar and get a free-poured drink, and now they’re usually measured by some machine depending on where you are. Soundsystems were usually analog back then, now they’re digital. Sound was usually a little warmer, now it’s a bit colder. What you listened to mostly was song-based, now it’s mostly track-based. You had singers and groups and orchestras and bands and rhythm sections that made up one particular production. Now you have one person sitting in a small room doing it. Saying all that, as much as it’s changed, it’s still pretty much the same or vice versa.

For me, I’ve amassed an enormous library from playing all these years of not just music, but a lot of vinyl, which I’m gonna be getting rid of pretty soon. But apart from that, all the music I’ve been playing is all stuck back here. [feels back of head] The sensibility and the approach towards each particular song and the way I’ve played it over the years feeds into what I have to deal with now that’s current. I still apply the same thing. I’m not a showman when it comes to playing. I’d rather be tucked away in the corner somewhere and feeding you what I’ve got. Take it or leave it. Some guys have got to be out front and they’ve got to have all of this [points up] and they need to put on a show. I’d rather let the music speak for itself, ‘cause not everybody has good taste in music, but those who do, shine.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

At the Warehouse, was that more or less the MO for you? Were you tucked away someplace in the room?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Absolutely. In fact, the DJ booth was constructed on the loading dock, at the back end of the room. It was three stories, the basement, the main floor where the dance floor was, and the lounge was upstairs. So when you came into the building you went upstairs and then you came back down at the back of the building. So when you got to the back of the room and you came down, that room was usually dark and the lights were glowing. And if it wasn’t the dead of winter, we turned on the exhaust fans, so all the condensation in the room would turn into natural fog, if you will. You could hear nothing but the crowd in there screaming and making whatever kind of noise it was. And that was pretty much it. Some people have these romantic notions about it, it must have been all these different crazy things, but it was really, really simple. We had a fabulous sound system in there and, because of my education with Richard Long, who actually designed the sound system, it always sounded this good.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Was Robert’s and your vision based on the places in New York, or was it creating this entirely new thing?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It was Robert’s concept to begin with and it was based on David Mancuso’s Loft. It almost became that for me because when I first moved to Chicago, I lived there, maybe for the first two years in the building, which was in a remote part of the city that had been abandoned. So much industry had moved out of this industrial area that there was nothing around there. Now it’s one of the richest neighborhoods in Chicago ‘cause Oprah Winfrey moved in there, opened her studio, and everyone else followed. But back then, in ‘77, there was nobody there but me in that neighborhood. I had to travel so far out of the neighborhood to get groceries and so on. But the concept was pretty much built on David Mancuso’s Loft. It was strictly membership. We only catered to the membership. Only members were allowed to bring a guest, and if somebody wanted to be a member, they had to be sponsored by five other members who were part of that organization. It stayed that way for probably the first three and a half years. After that, it became a free for all.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

How so?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Well, the doors were swung open to anybody and everybody. Membership was no longer important. That came on the heels of us opening the doors on Friday nights. We did a lot of fraternity nights and special parties for different people; people were able to rent the place on a Friday night. All the talk was about Saturday night there and everybody was curious. They heard it was a gay club, they heard it was this, they heard it was that. It’s like, “No, it’s not about that, it’s about the music. You’ve gotta come on Saturday.” So a lot of people would sneak in on Saturday nights and then all of a sudden the crowd changed. It just turned over. The membership was no longer important. What forced me to quit was the fact that it just became dangerous. People were beginning to get robbed on the dance floor at knifepoint, hideous things like that. At that point, I just thought this was no longer the club that my heart was into. It was time to go.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What were some of the records that were big at the Warehouse initially?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

[long pause] “Let No Man Put Asunder” was big, by First Choice. “Mainline” by Black Ivory was huge. It was a such a wide variety of music I used to play there, it wasn’t all R&B and soul. There was some post-punk, Grace Jones, some reggae around the edges, some deep soul. There was some of everything, literally everything.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

When was the first time you heard someone refer to house music?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Maybe ‘80, ’81, somewhere around there. I was in a car with a friend of mine, going to his house on the South Side and we were at a stoplight. There was a tavern on the corner with a sign saying, “We play house music.” That was the first time I heard of it. Well, I saw it. I asked him what it was, and he said, “It’s the music that you play down there at your club.” [laughs] I was like, “Excuse me?” He’s like, “That’s house music.” I was like, “Oh. I didn’t realize it had a name.” “Well, it’s the House, that’s everybody’s nickname for the place.” That was the first time I really felt like I belonged in Chicago, that I was part of the city. The fact that people had given it a nickname, that they thought of me and that music together all in one.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

That familiarity. I think I also read about record stores locally using that description, “house music.” How did that come about?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I worked at one particular record store, and this store had a record pool in the beginning. There are no record pools now, but record pools were places where all the DJs were part of this membership and we all got the same records and shared in what we got. This was back when everybody was still playing the same music, not so much now. But the record pool opened up a record store and I became one of the buyers for the store. So many people still traveled back and forth to New York City once a week. I had so many connections in music in New York, and through those connections, I got a job working at the record store and being a buyer. But there were other stores that were beginning to put in these sections, “Frankie’s Warehouse Picks,” or “Ronnie Hardy’s yada yada yada,” that kind of thing. Then, our store opened up this selection called “The House Section.” You walked in the store, that particular section would be packed. All these DJs or wannabe DJs, would be over there looking for the next big thing. Before I started working there as a buyer they would buy everything in such small quantities. I’m looking at all the other guys in the store who are getting there early ‘cause they want to make sure they can get a copy of things. The minute I became a buyer at the store, I tried to order things in enough abundance so that everybody could have it. It’s hard enough going to a record store to buy a record but only two or three copies come in, and you’re not even considered as one of the people who are lucky enough to get it. That’s horrible, isn’t it? Isn’t that the worst? I just never felt that kind of thing. I tried to always make sure there was enough there and a lot of times I would record things, put them on cassette and send them, just to make sure someone else could have it so we’re on the same page musically. I know that feeling. You want it, someone standing next to you has got it, you can’t get it and they’re looking at you like, “Hah.” When you know that you’re gonna play that record better than they would. [laughs] You’re gonna love it more than they do.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And you were doing the buying for all the imports as well.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

That’s what I was doing, buying the imports.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What was catching your ear at the time?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Things like Martin Circus “Disco Circus,” Nick Straker “A Little Bit of Jazz,” a lot of stuff out of Canada, Geraldine Hunt “Can’t Fake the Feeling.” All those things that have been sampled so many times. Change “A Lover’s Holiday” and “Paradise,” all the stuff that Luther [Vandross] sang on. You weren’t lying when you said it gets hot up here.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

It gets hot up here, that’s why we have water if you need to be replenished. This is how we segue into the production. You were doing edits at this point. When did you start doing the edits?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I started doing edits when I was still at the Warehouse, probably 1980, late ‘79. A very close friend of mine, who was at school for engineering, he came in one day and said they were in the part of class now where you learn how to edit tape. He asked me to give him some records to take home and he was gonna cut them up and re-edit them. So I gave him a handful of records to take home and he came back with these mixes and edits he had done. I was really, really impressed with what he did because he really took these songs and he turned them around. I thought that was fascinating, so I thought, “Hmm, maybe I need to try this.” But I didn’t want to have to go to school to do it, so I said, “Give me a splicing block.” So he gave me a splicing block and some tape, I bought a reel-to-reel and I stayed at home cutting up everything in sight. That’s what started it.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

How long did it take you to get nice with the splicing block?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Actually, it didn’t take me that long at all. He showed me just what to look for, where to mark the tape, how to cut it, how to put it together. I picked it up like that and I was off and running. I was cutting up everything. But then I realized you have to think about things like continuity when you’re doing stuff like that. You don’t want to be so repetitive that it’s boring. You have to give it something extra that’ll make it pop so it isn’t just one drone thing going on. That’s when I started playing around with things like Rhythm Makers, running part of the tape backwards so that it would add a different effect. I was probably on drugs half the time, so it didn’t matter. [laughs] I’m just trying to find something different to do to keep the dance floor Interested, so they’d keep coming back every week. I was young, I could do things and get away with it and I’m still here, I can talk about it. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Obviously, in more recent times, with the technology, everyone does an edit, everyone wants to try to do edits. What’s your perspective on the predominance of that sort of approach nowadays, having been there when it was a matter of reel-to-reels and splicing blocks and physical labor?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

That was part of the fun for me. I can’t speak against what technology has brought to it now, because you guys don’t know any different. You didn’t know what it was to do that. I don’t mean to generalize when I say that, but if you came from that to this now, it’d probably be easier to really form a serious enough opinion about it. The next project I’m working on, I’m going right back into a live facility to do it. It’s probably one of the most expensive undertakings I can do. I’m really doing it for me, I’m not doing it for anybody else. I’m just doing it for me, getting back to my roots when it comes to production. I can still utilize every bit of today’s technology to do it, but I like the idea of having all these people buzzing around me in the studio and making it possible to make my dreams just that much bigger than I can imagine they are.

When I look at how everything is done now on a computer, you can work on Pro Tools in the studio and we have Ableton and all this stuff, and yes, it cuts a lot of corners and it shaves a lot of time off what can be done. I guess, in this day and age, it’s all about time. But when you look at it as if time doesn’t matter, then it’s kind of nice. But you can only do that with your own money, you can’t do it with anyone else’s money. But I’m lucky to be where I’m at so I can do that. And if it puts me in the poorhouse, I don’t care. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What was the turning point when you made that jump from just DJing to doing your own records? You were doing some in Chicago with folks you’re still working with now.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The turning point was Jamie Principle.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Who’s Jamie?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Jamie Principle is a kid I met. He came in the record store when I was there as a buyer. This was right after “Let No Man Put Asunder” came out and it was doing really well. A mutual friend of ours brought him in the store and introduced him and Jamie asked if I would consider producing him. I’d never produced anyone before that. I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding.” He was like, “No, I really want you to do it. José thinks the world of you, I think you’re great and I’ve heard ‘Let No Man Put Asunder’ and he’s played all these different cassettes of your stuff and I really, really want you to do it.” I told him again, “I’ve never done this. I don’t know what you expect.” He was like, “This is all new for me, too. I’ve got patience, I trust you. I know you’ll know what to do.” And that’s how it started. When we immediately got started working on his material, all his songs were like books, small books. He would come in with pages and pages and pages of lyrics for one song. I found myself having to throw a lot of this stuff away, trim a lot of it away ‘cause it was more than was necessary. At the heart of all these songs was so much simplicity, but he had so much going on on top of it. I just figured, “Let me try and thin this out and concentrate on what’s sweet about it, what’s innocent about it, what’s natural about it.” And that was “Your Love” when we first did it, and we did it in the DJ booth at the Power Plant on top of it. Not even a real recording studio, but in the DJ booth.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Can we hear a bit of it?

(music: Frankie Knuckles presents Jamie Principle – “Your Love” / applause)

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Thank you. That was 25, almost 26, maybe 27 years ago, but we’ve since redone it this year as the current single we have out now. I want you to notice the difference in two things – one, how much the technology has changed the sound so as to bring a different reality to it, and how much the tempo has changed from how people danced back then to how they’re dancing now.

(music: Frankie Knuckles presents Director’s Cut feat. Jamie Principle – “Your Love (Director's Cut Signature Mix)” / applause)

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So you were telling me a little bit while this was playing of what your philosophy was doing this.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

This song is so special to so many people. It’s probably the benchmark of house music, I think. As I’ve had so many people tell me, it’s probably the single most influential song in house music. When we decided we were gonna do it, the one thing I didn’t want to do is lose what was really special or magical about it. Sonically, obviously what we did is change the sound and brought it forward, but for the song itself, everything that was magical about it and beautiful that really moved people, we tried to keep that in place. I think we did all right.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO:

What did you do this on? What was your gear?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

We re-recorded everything all over again from scratch. My partner Eric Kupper lives in Connecticut, so we went to Connecticut and recorded everything in his studio. He has a really small room, about as big as this sofa, and we cut the vocals there and laid out all the tracks and we basically laid out everything. We have a ton of gear there. Out of all his gear, he has a whole sound library that’s totally mine. A lot of the time when people hear certain things they can automatically tell when it’s mine, just because of a certain sound that I use. That big fluffy pad and all the rest of it [laughs], they’re kind of signature things. But that’s how we built them by diving into the library and, again, trying to stay true to the song itself. We could’ve done more damage than good if we’d tried to do anything else.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

By contrast with the original, what did you do when you got in there, your first time more or less trying to do your own production?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The first time versus this last time? The very first time around, I didn’t know what I was doing. The fact that I did it in a DJ booth of all places was crazy, but we pulled it off. That very first version that came out was all off a cassette. A cassette. And it did that well. It just goes to show you technology at the time. But when it came back to going back and reproducing it again, being so close to it, it was very, very scary. It was very frightening, because I could’ve done more damage than good to it. There has been a number of people who have tried to cover the song over the years and I can’t say I’ve been all that thrilled with what they’ve done. I could’ve put myself in the same position, I could’ve hated it as well, but it was a major undertaking. But I’m glad it turned out well.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO:

You mentioned you recorded it in the DJ booth in the Power Plant. The Power Plant was the club after the Warehouse?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Yes.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

How long were you there for?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The Power Plant only ran two and a half years because my focus on production was getting greater. I’m spending all this time with Jamie and working on him, working on his material, and I found that all the money that was coming into the Power Plant was actually going into production, my production career, me learning how to do things. I was working exclusively with Jamie so all the money I was making I was spending on him. More focus ended up going into production than what I needed to be doing with that club. I couldn’t be doing both. I also couldn’t DJ in a club and run a club too. It’s just impossible because something’s gonna come up short somewhere. The club was beginning to suffer and to keep it from really suffering, I decided to close it down and focus more on production.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

And then move back to New York?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Ultimately, yeah.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

To be closer to the business of making music?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I felt I’d done all I could do in Chicago. There was no room for me to grow. I got my feet wet as far as production, I did a lot of remixes and productions for people in the early days, working with Fingers Inc., Marshall Jefferson, Joe Smooth, Chip E., everybody. Doing music for all of them, and there was nothing else I could do. The industry in Chicago was limited. The industry outside of Chicago was much greater. I had an opportunity to move to London or back to New York. Moving back to New York proved to be the best idea. I got in on the ground floor with Def Mix, and when I came into it, I came in with a pocket full of remixes that people were asking me to do for them. So I brought something to the table. Just at the time when Def Mix was about to open its doors and try to find its way into the industry, I helped bring it in.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Can you explain what Def Mix is for those who may not know?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Def Mix is a production company that was formed by myself, David Morales and Judy Weinstein. Judy Weinstein is my manager, but she’s also my best friend and she’s the heart of this business and what we do. David Morales, most of you probably know who he is. He’s my partner, and we started in this together. In starting this together, the minute we started doing remix work, we didn’t realize it at the time, but we were changing the shape of how it’s done. Before us, when you did a remix, you worked with what was available to you. By the time we got started, we were bringing in musicians and completely overdubbing everyone’s songs, reworking the music and the tracks, everything. There were no two-note basslines. We had to work with the songs that were there. But when you look at the people we were working with, Mariah Carey was pretty much David’s… for a while, she was his girl. She was his protégé if you will. He did everything for Mariah, and in between, I’m working with everybody else. We were taking these songs as they were originally written and completely rewrite the bed of music they were written to, to give them a bit more energy. That’s the kind of production house we were, we actually changed the shape of how remixes were done. But then Puffy comes along and said, “This is a remix,” and that they were responsible for it.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Have you had a discussion with...?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Puffy? [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

No?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Say again?

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You haven’t had a discussion with Puffy about that?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, please no.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

I’d like to be a fly on the wall when that discussion takes place.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Next. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So the remixes, Def Mix, at that point in your career you’re DJing where? New York?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

When I got my first record deal I was playing at… this is a small situation. There was a group of people that used to be employees and part of Paradise Garage and they decided they would open up Paradise Ballroom in New York City after the Garage closed. They somehow pulled me into it. It was very short-lived. The building that they got was a landmark in New York. With a landmark building, you can’t cut into the foundation or change or reshape it. It’s against the law. So what they did was, they put a truss up in the ceiling to put these lights on. They had to go through the foundation of the building in order to do that and that was pretty much over with.

At the same time, I get signed to Virgin Records and get asked to produce an album. I’m in the studio now and working on the very first song, which is “The Whistle Song,” and I get a phone call telling me Junior Vasquez has walked out of Sound Factory and if I would consider coming there and playing. Of course! You know? I don’t read that much into it. I think it’ll be, “Go play that night and that’ll be it.” But at the end of the night, I was offered the residency and I accepted it. About six months later, Junior decided he wanted to come back. They managed to iron out whatever their differences were, he and his partners, and he wanted back in. So they came and told me Junior wanted back and he was coming back. I was heartbroken and a little disappointed because I’m just really feeling this and caught up in it. But they was like, “We’ve got something special for you anyway.” What happened was, they were building the Sound Factory Bar. Smaller, tighter, but it was perfect for me. I didn’t want a room as big as Sound Factory anyway. I had inherited that room and inherited everything that came along with it, which was all Junior’s foolishness – you had to be there. But the fact that they were building Sound Factory Bar for me, building the sound totally to my specifications and the style of music I produced and played, who would turn down something like that? Every DJ in the world wants his own room, where it’s built to his specification and sonically, no matter what you put on, no matter anywhere in the room, it’s sounding even all the way around. That’s pretty much what they did for me and that’s where everything really changed.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

While you were at Sound Factory Bar, the album came out?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The album came out, did really well. “The Whistle Song” was of course the biggest song off the album. There were two singles that came off the album – well, actually there were three. There was “Whistle Song” first, then “It’s Hard Sometime” and then “Rain Falls.” Then Virgin asked me to do another album. But Virgin wasn’t ready for that record when it came out. To this day, I’m sorry that I even gave it to them. Everybody was stammering for it in New York City, they wanted it, there was talk about it everywhere. People were trying to bootleg it or get it any way they can. We were very protective of it, didn’t play it everywhere. I played it in the club, but I had to make sure that nobody was recording it or anything like that. Technology wasn’t what it is now, obviously, or else somebody would’ve had it and it would’ve been on the internet before you could take your second breath. We protected it as best we could. But once it came out, they didn’t have enough vinyl anywhere. In New York City, the day it came out, they sold I think 500 copies in just one store. We had to call Philadelphia, we had to call LA, Miami, New Orleans, we called so many different cities to get them to ship what they had to New York City just so that we could have enough because the demand was so great for it. And it still wasn’t enough.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

So that didn’t necessarily get you off to the greatest foot?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Well, thank God people loved the record and still wanted it. For that, I got lucky. Thank God people still wanted the record. That was good. The second shipment finally came in about ten days later, but that was one of the nightmares of being associated with a major label.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You mentioned the big song off the album. Maybe we can just play a little bit of it. Off the album, just a bit.

(music: Frankie Knuckles – “The Whistle Song” / applause)

So you’re doing this album. How did this become the single for you? Was it obvious based on what you were working on? You obviously have a passion for songs and this is an instrumental, so maybe not a song in the traditional sense.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Well, actually it is. This is the very first song we actually wrote together and the very first day we were working on my album. Eric and I, I don’t think we had worked together on anything before this. When we first started laying out the format for this song it just fell into place on its own. The more I listened to it, it kept saying so much. There were no words I could put to it, no lyrics you could put to it. My manager kept saying, “This is really beautiful, now you need to write a song to it.” I was like, “No girl, sorry.” But she got away with that when it came to doing “Tears” with Satoshi. It was such a beautiful instrumental piece of music and I kept saying, “It’s beautiful the way it is.” She was like, “No, if you want to get over you have to write a song to it.” So I asked Satoshie, “If you could have anybody sing on this, who would be your first choice?” And he said Robert Owens was his first choice, and Robert Owens happened to be my roommate at the time. So it worked out perfectly and Robert and I sat up and we worked on the lyrics. That’s what came out with “Tears.” When she tried the same thing with “The Whistle Song,” I was like, “No! Voices are not needed here. All you have to do is close your eyes and then open your mind and it’ll tell you exactly what it’s saying.” And to me that’s enough. Sometimes a beautiful piece of music is exactly that, it’s a beautiful piece of music, and you can do worse stepping on it with something that’s not naturally there.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Do you have a preference as far as “Tears” goes, the instrumental versus the vocal?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, no. I think it’s one of the few occasions that Robert Owens really shined. Robert Owens is like a wild horse, unless you corral him and ride him and put up margins for him, he can never sing the same line the same way twice. You have to take what you get when you get it and, believe me, sometimes it was like pulling teeth, trying to get the right performance out of him. A lot of people that just listen to the music and vibe off it and love it don’t realize how much work goes into getting that performance out of someone. But you don’t want to take anything away from what he’s about. I had to constantly put up margins and say, “Work within this framework here. Once you give me that, then I’ll give you a couple of tracks and you can go as crazy as you want to. But I need this right now.”

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Because that’s what the material dictated for this particular track?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

If you’re going to write a song to a piece of music like that, you need to get what’s necessary to the song in place. You need the verses in place, you need the chorus in place – ad libs are exactly that, they’re ad libs. They can go as crazy as they want to with it. They’re on their own. But to structure it and make it work. When we were working on the lyrics, I just thought, “This is beautiful.” The beauty of the lyrics matches the music itself. So now your performance has to match that. And that was like pulling teeth.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Let’s listen to a bit of this then.

(music: Frankie Knuckles presents Satoshi Tomiie – “Tears” / applause)

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

You’d think I listen to this music all the time but I don’t, I really don’t.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Sounds all right, though, right?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It sounds as good to me as it does to you. I don’t though, and I’m really not trying to be flip about it. You work on a piece of music like this for so long and the minute it’s out of your hands – at least for me – it’s out of my hands, it belongs to everybody else at that point. And I just move on, I keep trying to move forward with what I’m doing. But it’s nice to hear it back like this in this kind of company. Not only does it sound good but it feels good too.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

One of the cool things about some of the work from this era of yours as well, even though you’re a house producer, it’s very varied in terms of tempo, in terms of style.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Thanks for recognizing that. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Obviously, that was the plan. Right?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I don’t know if it was necessarily a plan. People are going to judge you for what you do. That’s the sad thing about any kind of art form, people are going to judge you. One thing I never want to be accused of is being a one-note. That can be a pretty ugly thing because it causes you to start doubting yourself or questioning your own validity. I have a lot of different ideas, and I try to challenge myself on each and every one of them. I know what I’m good at, I know what I’m not good at. When it comes to anything else, I meet the challenge every time. You have to, because you don’t know what will come out the other end. But I just don’t want to be thought of as a one-note. Which is why I’m working in a completely different arena now. I’m working at a pace that works well for me. I’m working with everybody that I want to work with, and everybody’s putting their trust in me to do the right thing by them. And so far it’s working out.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Obviously, you had huge success with remixes and production, but then you mentioned, when you started this talk, being surprised at being approached to do the Hercules & Love Affair thing, about stepping back. I wonder if you might spend a moment on what that experience was like as far as adjusting to different changes in your career.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

To be at this a long time, as long as I have, you get so caught up in living it, breathing it, eating it, swimming it, whatever you call it. It’s every day, every day. Life catches up to you and you don’t realize what it is until it knocks you on your ass. And when it knocks you on you ass, you have to get back up or stay on your ass. When my health began to fail me a few years back, or seven years back, at the expense of sounding too preachy or anything, your blessings come in various disguises and that song was a blessing in disguise. Up until that particular point, I had only been on the road and I figured I’d stay on the road until times got better. Maybe the sound would come around and people would get interested. Mind you, I’m constantly travelling around the world and people would keep asking me, “How come you’re not producing any music?” I know I’m not making it because nobody’s really interested in hearing it.

But after a while, I don’t realize how many people are asking me this until it finally catches up to me. But when I was forced to sit at home and rehabilitate, convalesce and all the rest of it, I had plenty of time to think about, “Well, what are you gonna do?” With that particular song I figured, “Let me at least get back on my feet and get back to work and continue to tour and travel and play and I’ll figure out the rest of it later.” Well, the song took off and that was pretty much it right there. It was like a red flag. If you don’t see this, you don’t see anything. So at that point, I decided, “OK, maybe I can try this again.” I had to also think about the fact that everybody knows the name Frankie Knuckles in this business and everybody knows what I can do and they associate a certain sound with what it is I do. So I figured I needed to reinvent myself to get back, but I didn’t want it to be “Frankie Knuckles reinvents himself” and then they see my name and go, “We know what we’re going to get. We know who he is, so we know what he’s going to do.”

So I completely reinvented myself alongside my partner Eric Kupper as Director’s Cut. We started doing a lot of indie bands, small groups, people trying to break into the business. We started working with a lot of these people. I call it a lot of pro bono work. I meet a lot of people all around the world that are trying to either put their first record out, looking for a remix on something they’re doing, even some established artists who haven’t worked in a long time. I thought Director’s Cut would be the perfect launch pad to help everybody. That’s what we do, we’re pretty much a launch pad. We take on whatever projects we believe in and we bring them to fruition. Then we hand them back to the artist and say, “Listen, if you can’t get a deal with this, then…” [shrugs] But it doesn’t cost them anything in the process of getting it done. If we believe in what it is then we make it happen, and we make it ripe and ready, it’s what we do. We put a little spit and polish on it, we get it right and ready so that at least the industry will pay some attention to it. Otherwise, if they try to get their foot in the door it would never happen. So that’s how I reinvented myself. And over the past couple of years now, there’s been a lot more focus put on who Director’s Cut is. Earlier this year, we released our first single with Jamie, which was “I’ll Take You There.” That was the first number-one single we had this year, and then we had our second one with “Human Life,” which is in it together this past summer. And now with “Your Love.” So it’s a good thing I saw the red flag when I did, otherwise I probably wouldn’t be sitting here.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

I want to make sure everyone has the chance to ask a couple of questions. I’ll open it up at this point if anybody has any questions for Frankie.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Is this where we do the Oprah thing?

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Yeah, you lived in Chicago.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

It seems when you started, back before house music was an actual thing…

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

Before time began.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

It was based around disco, real instruments. Drum machines hadn’t really come around yet. Even your sound, your signature, has a real lushness and prettiness to it. After a little while, the 303 and the 909, everyone’s using this stuff, the sound got more harsh with the whole acid house thing. I’m wondering what your reaction was at the time to that sound.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I didn’t consciously think about it one way or another. Derrick May gave me my first drum machine, which is a 909, and I’ve been in love with that drum machine ever since. It’s the foundation of what I do. My approach to what I do, especially when it comes to the foundation, the bottom end, the kick and the bassline and how they work, my theory is that it should be felt and not heard. Obviously, in certain songs and productions, the way they’re written and played, that slap bass thing works ‘cause it adds a nice effect. But I found that for me with house music, especially when you’re on a big dance floor in a big room with a beautiful sound system, when you feel that bass coming at you, as opposed to hear it coming at you, it’s a big difference. When you feel it, it wraps itself around you and it hugs you and I’ve watched it do some pretty amazing things to people on the dance floor. Versus a big sledgehammer beating you over the head. Maybe that works in techno or techno-based music, but you have to be conscious of the kind of sound system it’s also being played on. Most sound systems now are digital sound systems versus analog and that sound did not work well on analog sound systems. But now that everything is digital, and the way technology has reformed and reshaped everything, what I do, I can make work very well on a digital sound system and sound just as warm as it did on an analog.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

You still use a 909 live though in sets, right?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I still use 909 to this day.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO:

So you didn’t run into the issue you were describing at your club?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No, not at all. The biggest problem is just learning how to program it. Those were the early days.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Who’s next?

AUDIENCE MEMBER

Oh fuck, it’s not going to go blank on me.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO:

He’s been waiting all day to ask this question.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

I actually have. Well, I know something I did want to ask you anyway was that obviously, you were a huge part of the disco DJ coming up, being a “Loft baby,” as they would have said, and played alongside some of the greatest DJs in my opinion and moving on, 10 years later, 20 years later. But what I’d like to know is which did you find more difficult – controlling a crowd back then or controlling a crowd in the ‘80s and ’90s? Obviously, there would have been a pretty significant gap between all the music you’d have been playing throughout the ‘70s to more drum machine-related music throughout the late ‘80s and ‘90s. In terms of controlling a crowd and keeping the party moving, did you find a particular period tougher than the other?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It’s always tough. I wouldn’t even begin to rest and say there was a point where it was easy versus it being difficult. The minute you begin to get good enough at what you do, people are beating a path to your door and hanging on what you do, it becomes tough. Only because you know – or at least you should know – that people are listening. It’s not always about how technically savvy you are on the equipment or how well you can put two songs together, it’s what you play. You can put two records together and they can be slightly off tempo-wise or beat-wise, they didn’t completely match, but the next one that comes in is just as great as the one that’s finishing. And you’ll get as big a roar every time around. But it never gets easy. Some nights for me it feels like the music is playing itself.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

I have to ask the generic question, one of a million I’m sure you’ve been asked before. Can you please just describe, so I can hear it from your own mouth, what the Loft and the Gallery was to you? What was it like? I can read about it obviously, but I’d love to hear it.

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

It’s probably much like what you’ve read. It was really like home for me. David Mancuso’s Loft was his house, it’s where he lived, day in and day out. The parties he had every Saturday night were basically rent parties to pay his rent. David Mancuso was a hippie. He came in at the tail end of the whole hippie movement. You’d walk up into the Loft, it was up on the second floor, and as soon as you came through the front door – ‘cause he always kept the front door closed – when you come through the door, the DJ booth was right there in front of you. There was a hallway that leads into the back where the kitchen was. It was a real kitchen as kitchens go – the stove, the oven, the refrigerator – and there were people back there working. They had this big garbage can with all this orangeade that was made fresh by hand and that everybody drank, or water, this that and the other. But directly in front of you as you walk in the door was the DJ booth, and when you peek in there, David Mancuso looked like Jesus. Literally, he looked like Jesus. All you saw was his dark curly hair and his piercing eyes and the beard. And he would have a flashlight between his legs and he had his headphones. One would play, it would come to an end, and then the next one would start. That’s still how he plays to this day. It wasn’t how he put the records together, it’s what he played. And on the strength of that alone, that’s what I learned it’s more about what you play, not how you play.

But as time has gone on, technically putting two records together and beat-matching and all the rest of this stuff is essential to what’s going on. But at the end of the day it’s still important what you play. Today you can play every big room, big tune that gets everybody’s hands up in the air and gets a rise out of the whole room and it’ll just be what it is. Or you can make a significant difference and play some music that really is going to stand out. But where you’ll run into a problem with that depends on where you are and depends on the crowd that’s in the room. They might not be interested in it, so. When you find yourself playing for an audience with a little bit more mature taste, you may get a little more longevity out of what you’re doing. But I wouldn’t suggest doing it if you only have a two-hour set. That’s the biggest problem I run into all the time.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

What do you think about the house music that is done now? Are you still digging, still searching?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

All the time, all the time. It’s a never-ending quest for me.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

What do you think about the house being made by new producers?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I like some. I hope for more. I wish there was more substance in it. But there’s stuff that I like and there’s some of it that’s just okay.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

Do you want to name a few producers?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

No. [laughter] Don’t try it. It might be one of your records. I’m just kidding, I wouldn’t do that. [laughs]

AUDIENCE MEMBER

I haven’t seen you play recently. What do you play on now?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

You really want to see? [pulls out USB]

AUDIENCE MEMBER

Yeah. USB?! [laughs]

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

64GB. Hey, I can carry more records on this than I could when I was carrying vinyl. So it’s a convenience. I travel alone these days. My best friend, who used to also be my road manager, died last year, so I’m pretty much on my own out here now. I have to scale things to a point where it makes it easier for me to do the same job I’ve always done, but not carry so much weight in the process. Everything sounds just as good as it always has, everything’s been transferred carefully and sonically it still sounds good. But it’s only going to sound as good as the sound system I’m playing on. But it’s all right here. [holds USB up]

AUDIENCE MEMBER

That’s my next question. What’s one of your favorite systems or clubs?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

To date, my favorite system in the world to play on is at Cielo in New York. It is a Funktion One sound system but it is perhaps the warmest sound system to date. It breathes so well. Whereas most digital sound systems don’t breathe, this one really does. It has a warmth about it. And Cielo isn’t enormous. Cielo is about as big as this room, so when you’re in there – I don’t know how many of you have ever been to Cielo – it’s tight as a drum. Wherever you’re at in the room it just sounds beautiful, and to me that’s the best sound system today that I’ve worked on.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

So your music and sound has been evolving over the years. What is the next stage of this evolution? What ideas do you have for the generation that is ten years old right now and will start going to clubs in five, seven years?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

I’m sure in five or seven years, they won’t be discovering me. I don’t know what the next big thing is, or what the next thing is gonna be.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

Well, what ideas do you have?

FRANKIE KNUCKLES

The only idea I have right now is try to stay in this game. I hate to call it a game, but it is what it is. Some people look at this as a competitive sport. It’s not a competitive sport. Every DJ has his own audience and you’re lucky if you have your own audience. No matter how great or how small, the people that follow you and believe in you are all the people in the world. Or should be all the people in the world. All you need is believers and people that understand what you’re trying to do and that’s enough. I was trying to go somewhere with this but I’ve just lost my train of thought. To me, that’s what’s essential. I’m working on this remix compilation for Defected in the House and they’re trying to take me to task with this thing. They want me to put it out six months ago and they only just asked me to do it three weeks ago. They’re rushing me through with clearing certain songs and this, that and the other. And then they’re gonna tell me what they want me to do and how they want me to do it. So I had to take them to task and I had to tell them, “Listen. You came to me and asked me to do this project. Why? Because you believed that I can do it. One. Two, because of who I am and how long I’ve been out there. This is why you asked me to do this, so why don’t you sit back…” – and I hope I don’t offend anybody when I say this, this is exactly what I said – “…let me fuck this duck. You just sit back and kiss the feathers as they start flying.” [laughs] That’s pretty much how I put it to them, so hopefully it will come out next year.

Audience Member

Hey. You mentioned earlier that you played post-punk at one point back in the day and stuff. That’s something I have a passing interest in, and I think a lot of the people here who make dance music will probably have an interest in the early pre-house stuff. I’m wondering if you might be able to recommend some names, labels, people to check out on that tip. I’m into Liquid Liquid, ESG, this kind of stuff, but maybe some of the lesser known stuff that you were playing back then.

Frankie Knuckles

Well, I don’t know if I would call Liquid Liquid post-punk, but...

Audience Member

Post-disco.

Frankie Knuckles

I wouldn’t call them post-disco either, but I guess you’re probably closer to being right by calling them post-punk. Excuse me. There was Liquid Liquid, Optimo, ESG. There’s one particular store in Chicago I might be able to give you some information about where you can go to them, because that’s where I use to get a lot of my stuff from. I had a roommate that worked there. I worked in one record store, he worked in that one. They were basically a punk store so they had a lot of stuff by groups like Ministry and all the rest of that different stuff. Quasi-metal, post-punk, this that and the other. All kinds of crazy stuff like that. Maybe I can get that information to you.

Audience Member

Yeah, thank you.

Frankie Knuckles

Cool.

Audience Member

Thank you.

Frankie Knuckles

It’s called Wax Trax, by the way.

Audience Member

Hey, what’s up? You mentioned taking a little break from production, or a ten year break or so, earlier. I’d like to know what prompted that exactly. You seemed to have said that you felt like there wasn’t a place for you, or your kind of music, or what you wanted to hear. Just hoping you could elaborate on that a little bit? Like how you felt at the time or just more specifically, like what that means to you exactly.

Frankie Knuckles

Music was changing, again.

Audience Member

Is this like late ‘90s?

Frankie Knuckles

This was late ’90s. This was probably ’98. I would say late ’97 or early ’98 going through ’99. Club music was changing. I won’t say house music was changing, even though it did to a degree. It was changing and all these new sub-genres were coming along. New York hard house and this that and the other. Trance was really beginning to blow up at that point and stuff. The electronica end of it was just coming so far to the front and anything that was more musical, more soul-based, R&B-based if you will, was getting pushed completely to the back. At that particular point I’m still dealing with major record labels and when it comes to production and everything else, they didn’t want to know.

Audience Member

What about gigs? Gigs still coming through?

Frankie Knuckles

The gigs were still coming in, but it was beginning to get a little difficult because it’s just like a couple of years ago when the whole minimalist thing came along and stuff like that. My management was getting nervous because they’re thinking, “Oh, here comes another sub-genre. You’re probably not going to to get any work for a little while. It’s going to be limited how much work you’re going to get,” but actually my schedule went into double overdrive, because what the promoters and some of the other club owners, they’re hearing the same thing over and over again everywhere else. Here I am sticking out like a sore thumb as I always have musically, and it made a difference.

I think that’s the thing that saved me more than anything, is that I’m not doing what anybody else is doing. People know what they’re going to get here, and that’s not a bad thing. I think that’s what helped save me in the process. But I moved away from production just because I wasn’t happy with where music was going, and it was pointless for me to make it unless I’m just making it for myself. I could have done that, but then... I guess it probably wouldn’t have been any more of an expensive undertaking than it would be right now, but it’s just I didn’t have the presence of mind to think that way back then. I just figured, take your show on the road and when times get better maybe you’ll try it again.

Audience Member

You kept touring though, within those ten years?

Frankie Knuckles

Yes.

Audience Member

You never stopped DJing?

Frankie Knuckles

Only when I was forced to because of surgery. Other than that I haven’t stopped.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

I also have one question before we get out of here too. We were talking a little bit earlier and Larry Levan, Ron Hardy are DJ icons, but you knew them as people. I wonder if you have any feeling of either misconceptions about them, you knew them as people, or they’re always revered and discussed as far as music fans, DJs, their artistry and whatnot, but you knew them as people. I’m just wondering what your impression is and what their legacy is?

Frankie Knuckles

Well, people have their own impression of who they were. There are people that absolutely love who they were and what they stood for, even though they may not have ever met them before in their lives. And then there are people who will stand in judgment of them. Those are probably going to be the same people that’s going to stand in judgment of me when I’m no longer here as well. They were friends of mine. They were human beings. I knew them that way. They had their shortcomings, just like we all have our shortcomings. It is what it is. That’s life. But they left a legacy behind them that all of us that are on this side of the turntables, if you will, can benefit from. There’s something to be learned. Regardless of how hard they lived their lives, there is still something that they left behind that we can all benefit from. To me, that’s the most important thing. It doesn’t matter what somebody else’s opinion is of them, good, bad or indifferent, it’s what you take away from it personally.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

What do you hope for people to learn from you?

Frankie Knuckles

I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. I really don’t know.

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

We’re still learning.

Frankie Knuckles

And hopefully I can keep teaching you something. [laughs]

JEFF “CHAIRMAN” MAO

Anybody else? I think that’s a good place to leave things. Can we all say thanks to Mr. Frankie Knuckles? [applause]