Volcov

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So, welcome a young man from not so far away.

VOLCOV

Verona, Italia.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

We have to be really specific about these things as we learned earlier on last week.

VOLCOV

Verona is a city right in the middle of Milano and Venezia, in the North.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

He goes by the name of Volcov, but he is also known as Enrico. That’s what your mother calls you, right?

VOLCOV

That’s my name, yeah. So I’m a DJ, I produce under a few names. One is Volcov, one is Isoul8, that’s more like house. One is a project called Rima, which is something I do with Domu, who’s going to do a lecture later. Also, I have my own label called Neroli, which I started a few years before and another label called Archive, which I’m still managing and doing a bit of A&R for it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

How are all these things related to what is going on in current Italian dance music? Where do you position yourselves?

VOLCOV

I’m totally out of the Italian dance music system, you know? For example, my labels are not distributed in Italy, just some independent music stores that buy stuff from English distributors [carry our records] and I rarely DJ in Italy. I used to have a club night in Milan until a couple of years ago. We had a five year long club night, but then I stopped for... well, a generation change, shall we say. The clubbers who came to my parties were older, and the music wasn’t really appealing to the youngsters, so I decided to stop. Apart from that, we’re not really relevant to the Italian market, and I don't have many relationships with other artists or DJs or producers from Rome. I know there’s good DJs and good artists, but somehow we never crossed paths. I’m more down with some of the artists and friends from London or Germany.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So there’s some kind of a cultural diaspora there?

VOLCOV

Well, with the label, when I started, I just put out the music I liked.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Which was?

VOLCOV

Well, artists like Dego from 4Hero, Domu from the early stages, others like Alex Attias, a few different artists. We didn’t really check for nationality or whatever, it was just the sound that I liked and we just released it. There are artists from Italy, of course, it's just the sound was not what I was looking for. So nowadays it’s really difficult, we’re going to speak about how the market is really difficult. To give demos a chance you really have to be super strong. Back in the day, five or six years ago, you could take one production which was alright and sort of build from that with one, two, three, four singles and get enough sales to break even. Now the production has to be top quality from the beginning, otherwise it won’t succeed in the market.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

When you started putting that stuff out, there was a time when you could literally get a Dego record every other week on some label from somewhere. What was your personal approach to have yet another one?

VOLCOV

Well, at that time, when I started it was when the 4Hero album came out, so it wasn’t that easy to get a Dego record. He was doing 4Hero mainly, which was the album Two Pages, which was a great album. Well, it won the Mercury Prize, innit? Or it was a finalist, but it was generally accepted by the underground and the average English listener, let’s say. And then he was doing some underground tracks for labels, there was this label 212... Anyway when I started, I just wanted to try something a bit lo-fi, and bit different, you know? And so we started - well, I’ll play you something - the very first release on Archive was something by Nubian Mindz, which was a drum & bass producer from Reinforced known as Alpha Omega, and he did...

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So what was your connection with London anyway?

VOLCOV

Well, I was living in London.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Why did you live there?

VOLCOV

Well, I was writing my thesis at that time at university.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

What did you study?

VOLCOV

Economy and marketing, and so my passion was music. I was just hanging out at Reinforced and that was the music I liked anyway, and I started to meet Dominic (Domu) and some of these other guys.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So someday, somewhere in London, the pigeons were strolling around Trafalgar Square...

VOLCOV

We were playing table tennis at Reinforced and everyone was checking tracks and at that moment it was drum & bass or jazzy stuff, or house. We wanted to release some stuff that was kind of in the middle, and to give these drum & bass producers a chance to do some other shit. Both me and Dego started our labels, Archive and 2000 Black around the same months, and with the same distributor. Then, when we changed distributors, we were together with Goya, which we still are nowadays. The music has changed as the years have passed on, but we’re still doing the same kind of thing, with the same attitude, you know?

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

But when you speak about attitude and names, 2000 Black’s inspiration was obviously drawn from the Fela Kuti and Roy Ayers track, I guess.

VOLCOV

It’s just a name. Well, it was a regular night with drum & bass, so when we arrived we started playing the different music, and people were a bit surprised. But after a while they got down, as long as it got groove. And the soundsystem in that place was really something.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Was it yours, or was it the clubs?

VOLCOV

It was theirs, it was a sport place where they do reggae on Saturdays. So we had like a reggae soundsystem and that was really famous for drum & bass.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So, what would be your advice for people who aren't lucky enough to have a reggae soundsystem right around the corner?

VOLCOV

Well, to start a party yourself is always the best way. If you want to make things happen, you have to do things your way, rather than wait for someone to book you and make you a resident. If you’re lucky, you're lucky, but it's best to start your thing with your mates and do it. Nowadays with the market, you can be a producer, but it’s very difficult to make money out of production, because the budgets are very tight. You can use the productions as a promotional tool to go out and DJ or do gigs. So, to be involved in a club night is good, and good for connections ’cause you can get people to come over from abroad to play for you and you can do an exchange and go abroad. I’ve seen many DJs as residents who are doing their own parties and become in-demand.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

By doing a good job and spreading the word. But if you play devil’s advocate at this stage, what if I find someone with loads of money, get him to book all the DJs I wanted and, if I do a good job, then of course word will travel?

VOLCOV

Well, you could do that and it could work, but I don't think it’s something that would last, you know? I think you have to start step by step, very slowly. I mean, when we started we were offering decent money to the artist. Most of them were friends that we knew, so they were happy to come down and play. If you have a guest who comes down just for the cash, or you have a friend who comes to have a party, you can see the difference in the way they DJ. So at a certain point we had two guests from abroad, just because we wanted to hang out, like Dego, me and Alex Attias, Ian O’ Brian and Titonton, just because we were friends and wanted to hang out and play together. Everyone got paid a little less, but you can see the interaction in the night. But the funny thing is, when we do these parties it’s like no promotion at all, no flyers – just word of mouth. There weren't e-mails like nowadays. That’s the beauty of e-mail, everyone has e-mail nowadays.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Now it’s a lot more about playlists of clubs...

VOLCOV

Yeah, it’s full of internet DJs now. People request their playlist and they act like they’re famous ’cause they’re in everyone’s mail boxes, you know?

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

There seems to be a lot of that playlist CD-R thing, that, “Hey, I’ve got something you don't have” – thing going on, especially in that scene. Why is that?

VOLCOV

Well, people seem to be really cool because they play the latest CD-Rs. I think that went a bit too far, you know? Because if you have the latest tracks on CD or whatever, and you can't really mix, or do a proper set with a certain logic or give emotion to the crowd [then people can tell you're not a proper DJ], even if you have the latest tracks. Also, if you have a phenomenon especially like last year, where people were starting to copy tracks and send them out to people. Like, for example, Dominic or me go to play somewhere, we give a CD of some recent productions to someone, some guy or some resident, whatever, and the guy maybe makes a copy and gives it to a friend, you know? “Oh, just keep it to yourself,” and then all of a sudden your tracks are in Russia! Sometimes, if there’s a problem with a release, it’s not that we don’t want to release the stuff on time, it’s just that there’s factoring times and money problems with the distributor not paying, the record comes out maybe nine or ten months after a track is done. And so with all these people playing tracks on internet radio, charting it and stuff, at the end when the record is in the shop, it’s a bit of a problem ’cause people think, “Oh it's old, I heard it all the time too much.” So I think it affects the market, a small market, so more and more DJs should stop giving out CDs. It’s not a form of disrespect, we know people get excited about the tracks and want to play to friends, and give it to people, but it’s affecting our little scenes.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

What are the numbers anyway?

VOLCOV

It’s hard to tell because everyone pretends to be selling so many records, you know? “Yeah I'm selling a lot of stuff.” But the reality is like even big labels who used to do like house stuff, like 8,000 or 10,000 copies, now they do 2,000 or 3,000, if the track is really strong. In the underground labels we used to do 2,000, but now it’s more like 1,000. But, if the record’s not strong, and you need to sell 800 copies at least or people will start to think of your label, “Ahhh...[makes disparaging noise].” Sometimes we do just 500-600 copies. It’s really tough. If you do your own stuff on your own label, at least you do 500-600 copies, because you can break even and get your music out. But, if someone is signing a track, he has to pay a bit extra money, he has to pay the distributor, he has to pay the artist an advance, and then it sells like 700 copies or whatever, it’s a bit difficult. Me, I do this by myself, I do this in my spare time. I don’t do a mail out, so I don’t spend money on the mail out or promotion, I just concentrate on signing good tracks, stuff that I think is good and take it from there. I wait for the DJ to do the marketing and word of mouth kind of thing. So I try to keep the expenses as cheap as possible, and I’d rather spend 100€ more on label design ’cause I want the product to look good, just for myself not for a fashion item on the shelf, but because I like the product to look good, you know? And I like to give 100€ more to the artist or the singer so we can build on it from there, rather than spend money on promotion. Nowadays, you can see big labels of our scene selling less copies than an independent label, you know? ’Cause at the end of the day, people have less money to buy records, and when you go to the shop you really buy what is really heavy for them, which is good because small companies are maybe selling as many as big labels. We know this by fact. I’m signed to some projects with other labels and I’ve seen the quantities and sometimes it’s crazy. With no promotion we’re selling more copies than stuff that I produce for big labels that have more people involved and promote tracks out and everything.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So just forget about everything?

VOLCOV

No, I just say to people going independent is great because you have total control on your stuff. And personally, I think that the more difficult it is on the market, the more you push yourself to do a better product. So there’s a selection nowadays, there used to be so much crap on vinyl, a waste of vinyl, really. Nowadays, I think the quality around is a bit better ’cause otherwise people lose money. Simple as that. So it’s sort of a cleaning out.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

A healthy process?

VOLCOV

Well, it’s a healthy process, but still we want more people to be involved. The problem is that some distribution companies are going bankrupt. That’s affecting the labels and the labels really have a problem taking risks. Like, for example, a recent phenomenon is the remix, like a good way of making money – you do your own label, your own productions and then you get asked to do remixes. Same thing with gigs you get a bit of cash doing remixes. But nowadays, no one has money to spend doing remixes, so it’s all a swap thing. You do a remix for someone else, and the other guy does a remix for you and release it on your own label. This is great, especially if the artist offering you the swap is an artist you like and trust, but otherwise it’s not a great deal, really.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

But also we’ve heard a lot of these swaps not happening because the artist agreed on it and some management jumped in and goes: “No, no, no, you’re not on an equal kind of plane, so you need to put this on top.” So it takes ages before something really happens, or has this smoothed out now?

VOLCOV

To be honest, I think it’s really funny to ask someone more famous than you to do a swap. It’s not like you have to say, “I'll give you a remix and 357€ top up.” I think it’s rubbish.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

It’s a little bit like playing golf. You know, with a handicap?

VOLCOV

Yeah, but if you both trust yourselves, then you can make the deal. Otherwise forget about it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So, management?

VOLCOV

Management is a strange thing, anyway. Some don’t understand, they try to stick to the business. But in music there’s some little in-between things, that maybe just some people are into the music, you know?

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Did you ever have the feeling that your studies helped you?

VOLCOV

More the down-to-earth approach to the business, yeah.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

How do you get a down-to-earth approach to studying economics?

VOLCOV

I never had the fantasy, like, “Oh, this DJ's played my song, so I'm going to sell fucking loads, I'm going to do great.” I always thought, ”Oh, it’s another record, another thing to listen to in the car, it’s cool, let's make the next one.” So, I’ve always kept my feet on the ground, even through my job and I’ve tried to do music in my spare time, produce when I have time. I never count on this [music] 100%, so this way I’m free to never compromise on quality. I can just release one song, if I think one song is really great or really deep, I release it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Yes, that’s the ideal scenario, and probably the subtext here is “reality check,” or something similar. But you’ve been talking about a lot of different aspects and about how you want to do them all on your own. But how do you manage to fit all that plus the regular job into one week? How does your week look like?

VOLCOV

Well, I work every week, some email business to run things, or to get in contact with people sometime in the night, whatever.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

What’s your day job anyway?

VOLCOV

Well, I work in a family company now, we trade in fruits. So, it’s waking up quite early and finishing late in the evening – but at the same time, I have my space to send some emails, to go the post to send some CD-Rs.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So is it more of a hands-on thing, or more like an office job?

VOLCOV

No, it’s an office job, so I still have time – and weekends I’m travelling for DJing or when I’m not DJing, I’ll go to the studio. So, I try to finish songs very fast, usually in two sessions. Like, I’ll do a demo and then during the week I can let it breathe, listen to it in the car, and then in the next weekend or in a couple of weeks, boom, go and finish it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

You say you try to, what does the actual process look like?

VOLCOV

Well, it really depends on the songs, if you're inspired, you know? For example, remix stuff is always a bit difficult ’cause there might be some stuff that's really inspiring you, and the remix comes out – bang – ’cause you really like the parts you have. Sometimes the lack of good parts is a bit tricky and you have to push yourself a bit more.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

What are you looking for in the parts?

VOLCOV

Nowadays, just vocals. If I have to do an instrumental remix, it’s a bit tougher because I know I’ve got to change everything from the drums and the bassline’s going to be different, unless there are some instruments like flutes or horns or guitar or something. But instrumental remixes are a bit more tricky. Or you have to replay a brand new track and you replay the melody of that song sometimes, you know? Just to give an idea, but I’ve done remixes to be honest where I just didn't use any sound from the original. ’Cause sometimes people ask you to do [release] a 12", and you know to do a 12" is like two or three songs. And because of the scarcity of time, if I do a 12", I’d rather do it for myself for the label, or just keep tracks for my albums. So you end up doing a remix for some songs that I don’t like and you do a brand new track.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Why do you do it then in the first place if you don't like it?

VOLCOV

Because you like the guys. You have a connection with them, you go DJing with them. They’re so nice and enthusiastic so why not, you know? I think it's really important to still have some good relationships with people, you know? And if people make sacrifices for the music, I’ll always respect them, you know?

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So you do remixes for people you like, or tracks you don't like and...

VOLCOV

No, there might be a track on the label that I’m not really mad about or there’s not any parts I can use for the remix, but I mean you do a version. It’s like a song you know? I might use some of the bongos...

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

It was the same computer...

VOLCOV

Yeah, I use the same program.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Did you ever get any grief for that?

VOLCOV

No. If you do a good job, the artist is happy. But if you get a vocal track of the artist, then it’s easy, it’s better.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Coming back to the remixing of your own tracks, is it easier?

VOLCOV

Yeah, ’cause you go to the studio in a certain state of mind, or you’ve been listening to certain tracks in the car, or playing tracks the night before DJing, and you’re up for just going to the studio to jam. I mean, I come really fast with tracks, and the way I work is to get a groove going. Then recording loads of stuff, like percussion and shakers, loads of Afro/Brazilian percussion and stuff, so you get a groove going really fast, you know? Then you sort of write a melody and then you decide on the structure and the following session – or you take a couple more sessions ’cause you want to write a vocal or you invite a vocalist to join you on the song. But I have a feeling that the best tracks we’ve done, we’ve always done in very little time.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Can we hear one of these best tracks, then? Show us the quickest one.

VOLCOV

The quickest one is a remix we’ve done with Domu, actually. I think that was the quickest. Actually, it was a remix for Dego, who didn’t give us any parts, so we replayed the bassline, and we found this old hip-hop sample and we resampled from the same source.

(music: Dego - unknown Rima remix)

The original was much more minimal, so we just played the bassline and put the groove around it. The same three notes, so that’s like three hours work.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So it was more in the spirit of the reggae version?

VOLCOV

Yeah, we just found this break from Atmosfear, actually.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Atmosfear?

VOLCOV

Yeah, and we just jam on it. We play the bassline, find the samples to do the scratch kind of thing, and just edited it, you know? The sound sounded just right, at that moment and we never retouched it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Never looked back.

VOLCOV

This is another, which is like a mix I done myself, with some vocals.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So is it quicker when you work on your own?

VOLCOV

Well, Domu is very quick. Ha, ha!

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So what’s the story here? How do you communicate about it?

(music: Volcov - Unknown)

VOLCOV

This is more like my house project. And this is done with the process of just getting a groove, recording all the shakers, get the samples, chop some of the vocals. It’s a very fast approach. ’Cause the vocals were right, inspiring, you just click and do it. A good suggestion I can give to people is don’t get stuck on one song, and play it over and over because then you don't really get the right attachment to it. You wake up, you still have it in your ears, and it’s really hard then to decide what to cut and what to change because you still got just that thing in your head, you know? Loads of young producers do one song and they think it’s great and they do it for four months and sometimes they live with that track. Sometimes you should just do one song, leave it for a while, come to it after and think, “Hmmm, this is good, maybe I'll change that a bit,” and do more stuff. And if something’s not working and you push it a bit too hard, then maybe it’s time to change stuff, try a new song, you know? Because the best things usually come very quickly. Because it’s a smooth process.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

How do you keep up the mental energy that is needed to create the origin of the sound? I mean, when you close your eyes while listening to this, you would not think of Italian teenagers on the piazza, you would not think of the Friday night club with a lot of hot-looking people. I mean, you're thinking of big soundsystems and dancefloors, sweaty people, some kind of New York set up. Clubs that probably don't even exist anymore. How do you put yourself into that state when you're doing the music?

VOLCOV

Well, the more I go on, the more I get older, the more I try to make songs, you know? So I do stuff that I want to listen to in my car, you know? This is like on the edge - quite clubby, but still got the song approach. But the stuff I’m working on now, the house album as Isoul8, it’s really like songs which have a 4/4 formula, but not too formulaic, they’re still are good for listening. But as I told you, I’m not really bothered about the Italian market or how it is. I can hang out in a cafe with my mates, or at the same time go to my room and make a dirty song for a dancefloor in Detroit or whatever. I think it’s just the passion about music that moves you, you know? You see, if my friends don't really like my music... I mean, I’ve never really tried to give CDs to my friends, it’s like, whatever is to his taste. I’m not pushy, not at all, you know? That’s why I don't really do much marketing or promotion on the stuff. I like the stuff to arrive in the shops and let the people judge and usually there’s the guys who always work at the stores, and who give suggestions to people and they like what we do. In Japan people are really into it. The only reason we do the Japanese market is because people are really into it, so we take the time to go and tour and do these sorts of things. Maybe I send CDs to the guys at the stores when they do pre-orders. But apart from that I just let the market decide whether it’s good or not, you know?

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

With certain sounds, certain distributors are associated with it. How important is it for you to find the right one and be a part of it?

VOLCOV

Well, I’m with a distributor called Goya, and I've been working with them since the very, very beginning. And Goya is always associated with the West London broken beat scene because, well, it is in West London and most of the labels came from that area. I started working with them six or seven years ago and mainly because I used to buy records from this label called People. And People was distributed by this company and was actually owned by this company, and I was freaking out cause the records were so deep. I needed to get my records out through the same channel. So I went there, and at that time Goya had just left People, and Mainsqueeze, which was IG Culture’s label, but was just at the very beginning, and the Bugz in the Attic guys started the Bitasweet label with their first release. So I went there, I saw the people had the same vibe and liked the same music as me, and I thought, “Let's try it.” Dego joined a few weeks later and I convinced Alex Attias to start a label called Visions. Well, he already wanted to start a label, but I convinced him to join the same camp. And we were doing our things and there was a time, when we were being charted by everyone and seemed to be being very successful. We were selling alright, but we’d hear of people around us selling much more than us. Even though their records were never charted and didn’t seem to have the same appeal to people. But in the last two or three years, with all these distribution companies going bankrupt, and the natural selection I told before about the quality, it seems that we always sell the same amount of copies and the other distributors and other labels are suffering more. So I think the quality policy that Goya had paid off, especially over the last two or three years has shown good results to sticking with your own sound.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

A couple of the few remaining distributors are swamped with stuff, ’cause people who were with others have literally been taking lorries of their stuff and carrying it over to the other one. Did all this turmoil in the distribution scenario affect you at all?

VOLCOV

No. You know, when you’re creating something, if I was starting now, then maybe yes. But the labels have been running since seven years and one since four years, so you have your own niche with people. If you deliver a certain quality, then people will go and buy your stuff, or at least go to the shop and listen to it. Maybe they don't buy it, but from the numbers I can see these core people always buy the record. And then there’s a larger audience that sometimes buy it, depends on the release. I didn’t see any change really, in terms of sales. I guess if someone has to start with a label it’s harder now ’cause there’s just a few companies, the companies can’t take 15,000 labels, you know? Otherwise, we don’t do a good job. When you go to a distribution company, you have to be sure they can work your product. They have to be interested in your product, the seller has to be, “Yeah, I like this.” When he calls the guy in Switzerland he has to be like, “Buy 50 of these,” and the buyers like, “No, I'll take 20.” “No, buy 50.” So, if he likes the music, and if he's convinced, then he's going to do a good job.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Have you dabbled with any kind of internet distribution so far?

VOLCOV

No. I was one of the first to try and do a website, which was more than just the usual...

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

You were not the first.

VOLCOV

Well, we tried to be a bit creative with the website.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

What did you do?

VOLCOV

Well, we did some funny galleries with some of the people involved, and put as many information as possible on the releases, and tried to change the graphics all the time, and keep it visually interesting so you don’t get bored surfing. I never really joined any MP3 company or anything. Now there’s a famous one, the case of one company selling MP3s of all possible labels without any permissions, so it’s a big thing nowadays. Last week everyone was talking about this. We want to make a little webstore to sell our release. Just for people who want a release but can’t find it in the shop, then I’ll send you the record kind of thing. But because I don't have much time, it’s taken me a little bit to do it.

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

So for someone taking so much pride in the actual physical appearance of the record, how does something like joining iTunes appeal to you?

VOLCOV

At the moment, I haven’t really thought about it. I still like to have the real product in my hand, so I just want to communicate that with people. The only thing I’m doing sometimes is two special deals, mostly with the 12"s. Now, when we do albums, what I do is a special edition for Japan, we do certain EPs on CD for Japan, but new technology at the moment, like ringtones or iTunes, I’m not really interested. With so much music, I don’t think people are going to start to look for this little underground track. If it’s an album, then maybe you can think about. Like, if you want to download the whole album, but...

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

Thinking of albums and Goya, Goya is literally situated on the back of a pretty large compound, which is owned by Virgin Records, so you got the two worlds literally back to back with each other, and now with the Bugz [In The Attic] being signed to V2, what do you think is going to be the outcome of that? I mean, major’s policies have kinda changed too.

VOLCOV

But it’s really strange, you know? The year we released the Domu album on Archive, we did pretty well with that. It was Goya distributing that, and we decided as a policy to do a special price for Japan where the record was supposed to be big, and that paid off ’cause we sold more than 2,500 copies in Japan, which for an underground [release] is very good. And, if you compare it to the market nowadays, it’s very good. And at the same time IG [Culture] was releasing his New Sector Movements album on Virgin and the record is great, for me the album is amazing. I was like, “Wow, this is great.” But they didn't market it properly and there was a great cover, they spent money on it and everything as a product, but they didn't do much to support it in the right way. I know the record sold less than Domu. And you think, “Virgin? Selling less than a product that could have been with Goya and it would have sold more.”

TORSTEN SCHMIDT

But, what’s the right way? Especially with Bugz, they’re a bit like the Wu-Tang Clan of West London?

VOLCOV

Bugz have a different sound, you know? They have a sound, which is a mix of elements. But to be honest, the sound has changed. The early sound was different from what it is now, ’cause some of the people involved are in different projects. So now they have a sound, which is more booty or bassy, so it will appeal to the larger audience, but it’s not exactly the old West London sound or the old Goya sound. Of course, everything is developing, I'm not so old-school that it has to be that sound, but...