Wu-Tang Clan

Alvin Blanco

Let’s get started. I don’t really have to introduce these brothers, but [let’s] go down the line and let them know for anyone who might not know.

Raekwon

My name is Chef Raekwon, Lex Diamond, Louis Rich the Third.

Ghostface Killah

Starky Starky.

Cappadonna

Cappadonna AKA Cappuccino the Great.

Masta Killa

Masta Killa.

Allah Mathematics

Allah Mathematics.

Alvin Blanco

Today we’re going to be focusing on Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, but before we even get to that we gotta talk about Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers. But before we get to that, I always wanted to ask y’all, I remember when RZA was reminiscing on the intro to “Can It Be All So Simple,” he was talking about 1987. What were each of y’all doing in 1987?

Raekwon

What we was doing in ‘87, running around, selling drugs, getting fresh, travelling. You know what I mean, doing a lot of travelling to different boroughs, going to parties all over. Like anything that was hot, we wanted to be near it. Around that time, definitely, you had what, Union Square, Latin Quarters, all of that. Rooftop.

Brooklyn was the place to be for us back then, because we liked to do a lot of shopping. So, we would go downtown Fulton and all of that. So, we was basically urban kids, moving around. Like, we never liked to stay in one spot, though. But back then, you know, crack hit. It was a phase that everybody was going through. [People were] running around high, dusted, smoking cracks and weed, and just, polo down.

Alvin Blanco

No doubt. What was the vibe like? Describe for people what was it like on Staten Island here in ‘87.

Cappadonna

It was in freefall. Crack. It was about getting paper, looking fly, looking sharp, throwing darts, you know, going to school the same way. We took school like that, too, school was part of rap for us, so that’s what we did. Just got paper, got zooted, got educated, got studied through raps and just hung out.

Ghostface Killah

It felt like you was free, like it wasn’t really no problems. Even if the cops was out there, just seemed like, you were just, whether you got high, you were still fly. And you just felt free, like you couldn’t wait to come outside to see your boys and get back in the same activity that you did last night. Break of day on the bench, break of dawn, you know what I mean. I mean, yeah, 40 ounces, just getting into stuff, though, but it was like the good old days for us. Then you had the best music out there. At the same time, you had [Big Daddy] Kane and Rakim and, I mean, it was just all the greats, they was all balled up into one. So that’s for me, ‘87 and ‘88, really glorious days.

Cappadonna

It started from ‘86, though. That’s when it really got popular. That’s when it first came, when we started thinking about long, fat chains, and long, fat ropes, and Rakim and Eric B. and Slick Rick and everybody. So, it was a big influence on our time, and at the time, soul music was still in, so we them soul babies in that era. We was the last era. Them ‘80s babies, yeah.

Alvin Blanco

When did the rhyming come in for y’all personally?

Ghostface Killah

It always been there.

Cappadonna

Started before that.

Raekwon

It probably started maybe a year after Run-DMC came out. What year they came out, ‘84?

Allah Mathematics

Nah, it came out earlier than that.

Raekwon

We was rhyming around that time, though.

Ghostface Killah

‘84 was the year. ‘84 was the year for me. Going to school. My mans, they rhyming and stuff like that in the lunchroom. Then, as years went on, it just got real.

Alvin Blanco

Did it really get real when “Protect Ya Neck,” when y’all put in the money to press up that single, were y’all about to go full blast, or was it half-in, half-out?

Ghostface Killah

That was official, that was a stamp. That was the beginning of a whole new era, when we did that. And it was over after that. And we knew it was going to be over.

Alvin Blanco

What was the recording session like for that?

Ghostface Killah

Everybody had to put $50 up, you know what I mean. Get your money up, yo, boom, boom, boom and do what you had to do. And brothers came up, it was all in the studio. Had to lay our verses down, you know, and it was history.

Alvin Blanco

Is the version that everybody heard the same as when you were in the studio and put it down, or did RZA kind of flip it?

Ghostface Killah

I think it’s the same, though. Because some brothers be having two darts, two rhymes. You don’t know if they picked out that was the rhyme they put on there. It just was what it was.

Alvin Blanco

Alright, so you get this deal with Loud Records for the single. Album now, it’s like eight of y’all, split the pie eight ways. That’s not big money.

Raekwon

You’re right about that.

Alvin Blanco

So, how long was it half in the streets, half in this music game? Once you were signed to Loud, did y’all leave the streets completely, or were you still [hustling]?

Raekwon

Street was over back then anyway.

Ghostface Killah

Yeah, it was on its way out, but we was still in them. I mean, I at least still did what I had to do, though. But it was serious. But before we even got with Loud, RZA had shopped that tape “Protect Ya Neck” shit everywhere. And he went to Russell [Simmons] and all these guys was like, “Nah, it’s not gonna work. There’s too many a y’all,” this and that. He went to Warner, everywhere, but Steve [Rifkind] was the only one that said, “You know what? Hey, listen. I’ll give you...” Because we wanted creative control over our shit. And he gave us the right deal. He was like, “And, you know, I’ll let you go solo, get y’all shit together, go solo, do what you gotta do,” and shit like that. And he had no money. He said up top, he ain’t had no money, but we went because he gave us what we wanted. I mean, the money came after that shit, so all everybody had shitted on us at one time, because they said there was too many motherfuckers, it wasn’t going to work. And I respect RZA for that, because he made the right decision, and we history now.

Alvin Blanco

Trying to think back to that time, it was definitely the Death Row era with these big club sounds, Bad Boy era if you want to call it that. But y’all came sorta as the antithesis to that, with the stripped downbeats, hardcore rhymes. Was that something that was purposefully done, or was that just something that y’all do?

Raekwon

Natural. All that was natural. I mean, one thing about Staten Island n----s is like, we’re a combination of all boroughs, all in one. And I think at that time when we was rhyming, Staten Island had their own flow, their own everything, you know what I mean. And it was like all we did was be a part of our environment to the fullest. Like Cap was telling you, it was like, “Yo, we was still kids, we was still going to school.” I remember going to school and saying, “Alright, I missed one day.” Then I missed three days, it’s like, “Three days ain’t bad.” Two weeks. Next thing you know, two months. I’m like, “How am I going to tell my moms this shit?” You know what I mean? But we was still growing up as kids, and like he said, finagling. There was a lot of things going on in our neighborhood, so Staten Island had their own way of delivering their rhymes. And our rhymes is fresh from the neighborhood, from cats that just was freestyling, and you know what I mean, they was party doctors. Brothers that, you know, this is what they do. We was young students, just watching them, coming inside the rec room and watching how they put they flow together, and they wordplay and all that. And we used to sing them songs in the neighborhood, and then it just hereditary passed down to us. So, Staten Island and had they own delivery of rhyming.

Alvin Blanco

Did you think that Staten Island sound would get as big as it was?

Raekwon

We was cocky like that. We felt that.

Ghostface Killah

Yep. We came in to crush n----s. We came in looking for Def Squad and them n----s. Because we knew they had “Headbanger.”

Raekwon

They had a crew.

Ghostface Killah

But we knew we had “Protect Ya Neck.” They had a crew, and that’s what it was, so we came in after those dudes. But when we came in, they fell out, you know what I mean.

Alvin Blanco

No disrespect to Def Squad.

Ghostface Killah

Oh no, no, come on, I love them, but that’s what it was. It was competition to us. Like, yo, ’cause we was dart masters, early. So, when we looking at, you got Erick Sermon, you got Redman, they just murdering every track they got on. They was like the streets to us. So we know when we came in, it was going to be some shit. And when we got on, it just so happened that things fell apart with them, and we was still here. That’s not saying that was our focus, but that was our competition out of everybody.

Raekwon

Only because at that time, when you think of so many guys in the group, you think of them. And we always used to say, alright, you see Redman? We got Method Man. You see EPMD? You got Rae and Ghost. So we was always trying to match their group integrity, because we felt like they was the shit, and they was the shit back then.

Ghostface Killah

They was the shit, hell yeah.

Raekwon

You know what I mean, it wasn’t personal, like, “Yo, we come in a beef with them.” But they was hot, so at the time, we just was worried about making where we from hot. You know, they was from Jersey, and they gettin’ it in. Long Island, and all of that. So, you know, Staten Island was still a mystery to everybody. So, we was already planning our targets and our attacks on the game. That’s what it was at that time.

Cappadonna

What made our shit so ill, though, is we had that combination of all the brothers, and we had all that witty, unpredictable talent. Natural game. It wasn’t all about hardcore rap at that time, or softcore. It was just about who could say the slickest and the illest shit. At the same time drop a jewel, some education up in there. We was the first nine born, we was the ones, you know, besides Rakim that brought knowledge to the game, and gave the younger brothers and sisters on the block some identity, how to look into theyself and study theyself to find the best quality within theyself. And then, also we had a combination of styles, ‘cause we had Staten Island, and then a lot of us from Brooklyn, like Masta Killa, and in Queens. So, you know, some of the best rappers, Biggie Smalls, you know, Run-DMC and all of them, that’s Queens and Brooklyn right there. So, when you combine all of that right there, it’s like, come on, man. It go beyond style after that. Now you dealing with chambers, you know what I’m saying? And that’s how you get them 36 chambers right there, man. Them flavors just keep coming at you. That’s why they can’t mess with us ‘cause it’s like, each one of us got a chamber individually, and then all together it’s like we the 36 chambers, too! You feel me?

Alvin Blanco

I want to ask Masta Killa. We always hear the stories about how RZA would throw on the beat and everybody had to compete to get on that joint. You couldn’t even just say, “I’m on this track.” That said, I know “Da Mystery of Chessboxin’” was basically your debut, right?

Masta Killa

No doubt.

Alvin Blanco

How was it getting on that, was that your debut rhyme on wax? Can you speak on that?

Masta Killa

Right. When I met my brothers right here, as far as talent-wise, they was already doing what they had to do. The Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) album was basically already put together. There was one slot left on “Mystery of Chessboxing.” There was a few other MCs in the studio that night. It was like, who’s going to throw the slickest dart or the illest dart to make that slot? What I wrote spoke for itself.

Alvin Blanco

Were you Wu-Tang already and that just made it official? How did it work?

Masta Killa

I’m Wu-Tang ’cause I’m family. But as far as this business is concerned, yeah, that sealed the deal.

Alvin Blanco

So, let’s take it forward a little bit to Only Built 4 Cuban Linx. Rae, were you always slotted as like that third soloist, after Method Man and the late Ol’ Dirty Bastard, rest in peace?

Raekwon

I was afraid at that time to do it dolo. I always came into this whole Wu-Tang compound as a team player. So, I wasn’t even thinking that far yet, but I knew I had my own chamber, because everybody around me was like, “Yo, you rhyme this way, you got your own flavor.” That’s how I even got the name the Chef. But to make a long story short, I didn’t feel like that was something that I felt excited to do, because I was always for the family, and Wu-Tang, we was raining back then and we knew that at the end of the day that this guy was going to come first, this was going to come next. When it was just my time I was like, I wanted to do it, but it wasn’t what I wanted to do, really. But I guess, people was loving what I was doing, it was a request. So now, it was something that I had to do. And I already was saying to myself, “OK, well this is my style right here. I’mma bring in that mafioso rap.” Like you said, that ‘80s baby flow, you know?

Alvin Blanco

You’ve said that you never really liked that mafioso rap term, right?

Raekwon

Nah. I love the principles of it, but I wasn’t never stuck on it because, like Cap say, we used to master flows. One thing about Wu-Tang, we was the type of cats where if you said this word, he couldn’t say that word or anybody couldn’t say it because you said it. It was more about being dynamic with your mic. Really, just getting to the point to show everybody you a MC, you around a MC. I knew how to do this, but at the same time, we might have been rocking the flow or something. This might have been just about the flow or the style of the rhyme. At that time, like I said, when I was making Cuban Linx, I already knew that I’m going to just give y’all what I love. The shit that I love the vibe off of, too. Back then, looking at a lot of mafia movies, a lot of good movies, a lot of movies with principles involved with it. I felt like that’s how we was living in the streets. I used to be one crew. Never jump from crew to crew. Always stay with cats that, even to this day, I got 30-year relationships with. We always was like brothers from [another mother]. We didn’t have no father. All we had was each other, none of us really had fathers. Out of maybe 30, 40 cats on the block. Not 30, 40 cats running around every day chilling. You break it down, maybe seven over here, ten over here, five over here. But we all became brothers within each other. Like I said, anything that you see that I’m spitting is only because of the experience of all the individuals that I was running around at that time. That’s why we was like, “Yo, it’s about family. Family’s the most important thing.” Because if you ain’t family, then it’s only but so much love we got for you.

Alvin Blanco

Real quick. Y’all went to Barbados to start recording it, right? What happened that y’all left out there?

Raekwon

We got kicked out of Barbados because we was more or less caring about the maids... We go to these different places and you’d be surprised how you see people get treated. When we happened to be out there, it just seemed like the hospitality wasn’t [there]. It was there, but the people that was really showing us love...

Ghostface Killah

Straight slavery. It was slavery out there.

Raekwon

They was getting treated a certain kind of way. We didn’t like that. We’s like, “Why they treating them like that?” Like tips couldn’t make these people smile. Ghost would give them like $200 tip or something. You could still see something on their face, like, “What’s the matter?” Certain things like that.

Ghostface Killah

It’s messed up, and they’s fucked up.

Ghostface Killah

We had fatigues on. They didn’t even want us with the fatigues on. They didn’t want that. I don’t know.

Raekwon

You talking about the hotel?

Raekwon

In Barbados, yeah, in Barbados. Even with the music. We trying to write, they complaining. So they put us out after a while. That’s when we went to Miami. We wrote all our music in Miami. Came back to Staten Island and recorded Cuban Linx.

Alvin Blanco

Did y’all have the beats with y’all?

Ghostface Killah

Yeah, we had beats. We had the beats. We had the majority of the beats up.

Raekwon

When we was in Miami, too, we was like really making it happen happen. Like, when it was time to come back to Staten Island, we might have did maybe three or four songs. Everything else was carved out out there, though.

Alvin Blanco

What made y’all implement The Killer joint? Did you ever get your Killer tape back from Meth?

Raekwon

Hell no. Hell no. That’s one thing about family and brothers. We take shit from each other and don’t realize we taking it. You know you don’t get it back. It’s like a lighter. You pass your lighter; you ain’t getting it back. Unless you be like, right after, “Yo, give me that lighter back.” All that’s real life, though. Back to what you were saying. We was just having, man. We was just trying to escape poverty in a great way and try to make something for the future of our families. Not only for us, but everything we was always doing back then was for the cause of the family.

Alvin Blanco

Let me play the intro to Linx.

(music: Raekwon – “Striving for Perfection”)

Alvin Blanco

Now, what made y’all have a narrative? ’Cause the albums before that, it was just joints, joints, joints. This definitely had a story. What inspired y’all to present a story for the first time?

Raekwon

It was just, like I said, that was going on around our lives at the time. We looked at it like we done did everything, we done tried everything, in the streets doing this, and just doing everything to win, you know, anything we felt like was gonna really help us, that’s what it was about. But this particular project right here was the gusto. We already knew that this shit had to be a classic. It wasn’t hoping to be a classic, it wasn’t hoping to be dope, it was supposed to be. And when Ghost was saying everything, you know, all that wasn’t premeditated, that’s once he get up in the studio. That’s how he is, he get up in there, he get to talking. That’s what he talking at that time. It was just all about our livelihood at that time, “Yo, this is the last time, man. I keep doing other things, and I ain’t getting to that level of winning. But this shit right here better work and it gotta work.” And what I was saying is like, the same thing, like, we gonna make something happen with it. We ain’t gonna just get some wind, just fall back down again. Because that’s how we were. A couple of times you may throw a lick in the street and then you up. And the next thing you know, couple of months you down. So when you been on both sides, where you had it and you lost it, it’s like it really doesn’t mean nothing to you no more. But to try to get it and keep it now. So it was all about, holding on to something that’s gonna be strong, and [in] my eyes was always about being legit. I wanted to be legit, and get out the street. Type of kid never had a job, my last job might have been a summer youth job, so anything that could just tell the cops, “Listen, I can stand in front of my building. I got a job.” That was the main thing for me though too, but at the same time we was in that life. We was around it and we wanted to escape it in a great way and do something positive.

Alvin Blanco

Let me play one other joint.

(music: Raekwon – “Glaciers Of Ice” / applause)

Raekwon

“Just a hobby that I picked up in the lobby.”

Alvin Blanco

Alright, so what goes through your mind when RZA throws on that instrumental?

Ghostface Killah

You have to take that shit. We took that, we go to Barbados with that. We picked out a lot of beats before we left. And that, when shit came on, it was like, “Alright, that’s in the bag.” You take that one, because it’s just, that’s how it is. That sound right there is just what we looking for, and it was just one of those shits. That’s real shit, that’s real hip-hop.

Masta Killa

At that time, anything that RZA put his finger on is just crazy.

Cappadonna

That’s an Italy spaghetti beat right there.

Raekwon

He was on fire.

Ghostface Killah

Shits was jewels. Know what I mean, a number of jewels. It’s like he said, everything he touched it just turned to gold. And we just knew, from “Criminology” to all that shit was like, ok, all that’s coming, and we tried to make every song, every song like a fuckin’ hit. It could be a single, at that time. That’s what I think what made that Cuban Linx shit a real classic, too, each song is so dope, that’s how we planned that shit to be. Nothing less. Not just an album cut. We don’t want an album cut, we want singles on every song, and that’s what it was.

Alvin Blanco

Cappadonna, was that the first joint you were on?

Cappadonna

Yeah, the Cuban Linx album, the first one, that’s where I made my debut. I came in on “Ice Cream.” I did “Ice Cream” first. Came in, did that, took me about ten minutes. I had went in the studio. That’s when RZA had the studio up on the top of Wagner College. In the basement. That studio got flooded out. But before that, I was up in there. I heard the track. I went up there with Golden Arms [AKA U-God], and I was just listening to the song. It was Rae and Ghost’s verse on there. Wasn’t no hook or nothing on there. RZA asked me if I wanted to throw some bars up on there. I denied. I declined. I was like, “Nah, I’m good. I’m just coming through. Checking out the progress. See what’s going on and show my face in the place.” He was like, “Nah, nah, I really want you. I think you should get on this right here. I could hear you on there.” I did my little verse right there on the spot. Then Meth came in about ten, 15 minutes later and dropped that hook on there. Next thing you know, in two weeks, we was doing the video for that. To my surprise, they had picked that as a single. I wasn’t really even really ready for none of that. That’s how I made my debut. I came in on the “Ice Cream” vibe. We did that joint. We shot the video up in Harlem and some of it in Queens. The majority of it in Queens in the Colosseum. After that, the rest was history. I did two more joints on there. I think I did that “Ice Water” joint right there. What else we did? “Daytona” or something like that. Yeah. I was happy that they chose me. Raekwon, all praises due to Rae for letting me come out and be a part of that Cuban Linx album and Ghost and RZA checking for me when I came home. That’s what’s really good. After that, I dropped that Pillage album.

Alvin Blanco

Rae, put you on the spot. You didn’t like “Ice Cream” at first, right?

Raekwon

Never did. I like the beat, though, and I like the hook. But like Ghost said, at that time, we was going hard right there. You know, we was really representing that box of music at that time that we felt like shit is just built for real n----s. N----s that go to jail, n----s that kill people. Like, it was just the negative, but, still a positive in it, but a negative. Like, I was rhyming for drug dealers. Keepin’ a hundred.

Ghostface Killah

I look at this shirt right there, says, “I roll with God, killers, and drug dealers.” Got it?

Raekwon

That’s why we called it “Only...” Because it wasn’t for the whole world. It was only for people that could relate to that lifestyle at that time. That Tommy Hil, Ice Rock and shit. You know we’s wearing jury for a long time, because in our neighborhood, you know, we was always in a neighborhood where drugs was big. Like Ghost’s neighborhood, of course you got the old school cats out there that really, n----s is knockout artists, but they smoke dust and all that shit. So, these are motherfuckers that will take the coat off your back and be dusted as hell. You know, and in my neck of the woods, it was like all drug dealers. Like, Jamaicans, Guyanese, they was all about hustling and making a way for theyself and demanding that respect. So, just having both of these kinds of environments just made us who we are. Like, we are really a product of that and at that time that’s all we knew. You know, stay fly, you know what I mean. You better have some good product, you know what I mean, even though around that time we might have been… I’ll probably say I was sniffing blow probably like 16, 15 probably like.

Alvin Blanco

That’s kinda early, son.

Raekwon

We was already grown men, you know what I mean? Fly, slacks on, coming out with good silk shirt on. You know, slacks, ironing your shit everyday, waking up, you know, we was men. All that.

Cappadonna

Going to school like that.

Alvin Blanco

I’m going to play another joint.

(music: Raekwon – “Glaciers Of Ice intro”)

Alvin Blanco

How many other skits you got in the bag? You was rolling around with a DAT, right? I know y’all got a lot of shit in the stash that’s got to be...

Ghostface Killah

Got shit everywhere, man. That skit right there, B, it was like Rae said, n----s was fly n----s. Shark skins and Clarks and shit. When I seen those shits, it was like I had to get in the game. It’s just that, on that shit, we have vivid imaginations. Our shit’s just like, our imagination is real colorful. We colorful kids. When I’m just looking at the shoe, I’m just seeing colors. That’s why it came like Blue & Cream _[, the unreleased album]. By the time we got to the _Ironman album, when you see all those Wallabees up there, it was like, “Yo, I’ll have my Chinese man out here paint those shits like that for me.” That’s how the Wally kingpin, that’s how all that shit just came into play. We the motherfuckers, man, when we see shit, we know how to flip shit. I don’t give a fuck if it’s a ill bedroom set. We knew how to turn it up. We knew how to paint those. Certain motherfuckers don’t know how to put their shit together. They wardrobes together and this and that and the third. We got that eye that know what looks fly. It’s like, “Oh shit, oh word, that’s how you doing it? A’ight, boom.” That’s what type of brothers we are and shit. That skit, we were just painting pictures. It wasn’t rehearsed. Cold rehearsed. None of that shit. “Shark Biters,” Biggie’s skit, none of that shit. It just came. Whatever what was being said was just being said. That was that. We move on. That’s how we do. We paint it just like how we get those songs together. Like, “Oh shit, how the fuck you...?” “Yeah, n----, that’s what it is.”

Alvin Blanco

Since you brought up “Shark Biters,” was it a case of you felt that you felt that cats weren’t paying a homage to the stuff you brought to the game?

Ghostface Killah

Nah. “Shark Biters” I was 25, yo. Going in. At that time, I had a bunch of goons around me. We didn’t give a fuck. What was said, what was said sideways, like a sideways dart. We didn’t give a fuck on how a n---- took it. That’s why I said the end of it was like, however you’re going to take it, then fuck it. That was it. All due respect, at the same time. When you was younger and you just whiling and doing what you got to do, a lot of times, you don’t really realize this shit until years later. As you mature, you see shit. It was what it was at that time. That’s it.

Alvin Blanco

Rae, “Incarcerated Scarfaces,” brother. Yo, what? You gotta explain how that just came together.

Raekwon

I wrote that shit in ten minutes.

[laughter]

Alvin Blanco

Ten minutes?

Ghostface Killah

He the fastest n----. He’s the only n---- that write rhymes on milk boxes, cereal boxes, he’ll bust a box open and just write on the inside of the box. Paper bags, he just do shit. For years. Fast, though. Fly shit.

Raekwon

I came to RZA’s house that day and he was in the basement. He was having his moment ’cause RZA, one thing about him, he lived in his basement. It’s like he had his kids up at the top, but he always would be down in his basement. And it’s almost like he lived in there. And of course sometimes we go through things with our old ladies and all of that. And I guess at that time he was just chilling down there, you could tell, he ain’t wash up or nothing. Hair all crazy, but he was in a zone, and when I came down there he played that beat. It was around the same time that, I think we had did “Criminology” the night before, if I’m not mistaken. So that’s actually what made me come back the next day, ’cause we was in the zone. And once he put the beat on it’s like, my mind just started moving like that machine again. And I just wrote according to what I felt. And he was like, “You need a hook,” and automatically I was thinking about all the people that’s not around us no more, all our friends. We was losing a lot of friends at that time, getting caught up, getting incarcerated. And at the same time, Scarface, that movie was like, it was like our street drug dealer Bible back then. So I was just like, “Yo, I want to make this hook dedicated to cats that’s not here, but still let them know they’re here.” Like I said, this whole album was just designed for street cats, cats that’s felons and they ain’t gonna make it, you know what I mean, they’re not going to make it. You’re sitting around 20 cats and be like, “How many of us is really going to make it?” So, you know, that song was like dedicated to them to keep they spirit up, you know, especially cats behind the wall. You know, we had a lot of friends, like I said, locked up at that time. Doing real time, like ten years and up. My best friend, he actually did like ten years. This is somebody that I really feel that raised me in a great way as a brother, not like a father figure but like a brother. And he wasn’t here, and all these cats was on my mind, so I was like, “Yo, I gotta give them something, too. I gotta do something for them.”

Alvin Blanco

Was it always a solo record, with just you on it?

Raekwon

Yeah, I was zoned out. I did three verses that day, and RZA, he was like, “Yo, you did what you had to do,” and we just left that song like that. But even when we was making Cuban Linx, I didn’t never take it like it was a solo project ’cause every project that we was making at that time it was always a Wu-Tang album to us. It just was his chamber, his chamber, his chamber. And that particular chamber was something that they knew was my style and I needed everybody to support that, and I don’t think it would have been the same if everybody wasn’t on it. So, I really tried to take the credit for it alone. Of course, me and Ghost we was Batman and Robin on it, we had brothers like Inspectah Deck, Cappa, Killa, everybody came through and put that support in it and made it stronger, because they felt like this was all levels of Wu-Tang getting even bigger. So, even when Ghost said, when we ain’t care about what we was saying and how we was saying it at that time, was because we we started to raise a stake in Staten Island. When you come from a borough that nobody don’t mention, when you going out, you hanging out and they think something sweet it’s like, you know, it was a revenge move for us to get back on. So when things was happening, Enter The 36 Chambers popped off, that was successful,_ Return Of The 36 Chambers_, Ol’ Dirty was successful. Method Man. It was like the plan was going according. By that time we was already professional, we was already in it. But our confidence was just, it was probably bigger than the Empire State Building at that time.

Alvin Blanco

Masta Killa, what’s up, man?

Masta Killa

Yes, sir.

Alvin Blanco

How’d you get on these records? Were you just laying in the cut? Because I’m thinking of “Wu-Gambinos” and “Glaciers of Ice.”

Masta Killa

When this movement – for all those albums in the beginning, I can honestly say, I was still a student of the game. These brothers was already in mode already. My style basically came from all these brothers, and I took a page out of all their books and made it my own. At that time, the train was moving. When something was on, it was hot. RZA was like, “Yo, get on this.” I always kept one in the head and just let that be born.

Alvin Blanco

Math, you’re an accomplished producer yourself. What were you picking up on the way?

Allah Mathematics

Cuban Linx was going on at that time it was like I was just really strictly DJing. I was hanging out with RZA, and I just happened to see what he did to “Ice Cream.” The transition of it, when I first heard it, from when he started to when he finished, is what made me want to become a producer. I went in the room. I started asking him questions. What’s this? What’s that? He was like, “This is the ASR-10,” started showing me some things. After that I went and copped me an ASR-10 and I just started trying to make beats. It took a minute. Caught on kind of quick, though.

Alvin Blanco

How did you all go about choosing singles?

Raekwon

We didn’t ever choose them like that. We was just making them. Sometimes they say you got to go with your heart. That’s what we was doing at that time. We was looking at each other like we all knew we all was stars. It was just a matter of how to play chess and really come with the right thing. We was letting the fans choose it after that. The fans made the decisions that encouraged a lot of our decisions. Like I said, when Method Man album dropped first, we knew Method was on fire. From the “Protect Ya Neck,” he was our guy. Of course, that’s our brother. If he going to us to the championship first, to the first one, let’s go. That was a collective decision. That’s how it was back then for us. That’s why I said it all revolves around family because that’s how we was moving. That we felt like he was the one that got to come out first. For him to come out next. And for him. Everything was precisely dealt with. That wasn’t premeditated. I mean, it was premeditated. I’m sorry.

Alvin Blanco

I always wanted to know. On “Meth vs. Chef” did you feel when RZA kept that part where you kind of lose your spot on the beat and you come back on it?

Raekwon

Nah, all that was fun. Me and Meth, we always be arguing back then. We was the funny ones in the crew. Everybody see us arguing, bugging out. It was just something like, “Meth vs. Chef!” It was a way of getting out our frustration, but it wasn’t even like, yeah, we battling. It was just a perfect concept for that beat at that time. I was just having fun, like I said. It wasn’t nothing personal. Wasn’t nothing aiming at him. It was his style versus my style at that time. Even to this day, I say he won. I tell him to his face, “You got me on that one. You got me.” Meth, he was a bad man. Very, very talented at that time, and still talented, but it was just something about them braids, though.

[laughter]

Him and RZA with the hair. We like, “Keep that hair. Whatever y’all do, keep that hair.” They was just dope. I just knew we had the strongest team at that time in the game. I seen it ahead of time, for real.

Alvin Blanco

Now y’all kept kinda your outside features to a minimum back in the era. I can only think of maybe a couple of Mobb Deep joints that y’all jumped on. Like, the “Right Back At You.” Were cats just not reaching out, were they scared to rock with you, just in general? ’Cause it would seem like cats would be thirsty just to get y’all on tracks.

Raekwon

Nah, we was all one particular family at that time. Like, Mobb Deep was signed to Loud as well. And Big Pun, you know what I mean. So at that time, we felt like we was the broke Def Jam crew over there. Def Jam is like a first class ticket. We was riding coach, but we had comfortable seats there. [laughs] Just being there, Mobb [Deep], all of us, we just felt like misfits. You know the shit that be coming on TV with “Santa Claus Is Coming to Town,” and all the misfit presents is like, nobody don’t want them? [laughs] Word, but we just felt like we was our own division that wasn’t really at the level that Def Jam was at that time. And we knew it was a bunch of talented cats. But we just knew each other. We just see each other vibe. “Yo, feeling y’all music. Yo, come to Queens. Rae, what’s up, I’m with it. But you got to come to the Island, too.” So in a way it was like, “Yeah, I wanna go see if y’all really live the way y’all say y’all live.” And the same for me, I brung them to my neighborhood, you know what I mean, sat up in the Chinese restaurant, cats is swinging they little things. You know, it was just like I say, we was young, like Ghost say, young, dumb, full-of-cum ass n----s. That’s all.

Alvin Blanco

“Verbal Intercourse.” Before we even get to “Verbal Intercourse,” y’all recorded another song, right? It wasn’t just “Verbal Intercourse.” You had another song with Nas for the album, right? It just hasn’t been released.

Raekwon

Yeah, probably two verses or whatever. First of all, Nas is somebody that we respected back then as a solo MC. We just felt like, at the end of the day, that’s the way to handle your business as a solo MC. You could tell he was mad smart. He had knowledge, he had flow, he was representing the street life. Like Cap said, that was all of us within one or two ways. Nas became a real cool friend of mine. I invited him to come to the Island. This was after, I think we did “Eye for an Eye,” right?mDid we do “Eye for an Eye” before that, right? Before we did “Verbal [Intercourse]”? Yeah, but make a long story short, I brought him to Staten Island and brought him into the studio where everybody was at and said, “Cats is happy to see you come through.” At that time, we wasn’t big on features. We didn’t care about that, but if we respected you as an MC, and as somebody that’s going to be influenced. It’s like we already seen it like x-ray vision. Even back then, Nas was even asking cats, “Yo, manage me,” or whatever. It never escalated to that because we was more friends than anything. He came in the studio. Played the beat. He didn’t have a problem with the beat. I was like, “You like that?” He was like, “Yo, it’s hard.” He didn’t know what to do or what to say. Now I got to play A&R now. Rae got to be, alright, bust some darts in the air. Yo, he started getting in there and started saying different rhymes to certain things. That’s why, like he said, it was probably more than one rhyme. When I heard that “Through the lights, cameras, and action,” it wasn’t nothing to talk about after that. It’s like I already seen it. After that one, I threw my dart, ten minutes, just because I was so happy that he did something great as far as within an our camp. It really made me feel good. It was like, “Wow, I can’t wait for the people to really rate this shit.” Because the beat? Like I said, RZA was just on fire. Seriously, when you think of his legacy back then, how many producers you know could do five classic albums back to back?

Alvin Blanco

In a row.

Raekwon

In a row. It’s never been done before.

Cappadonna

Never really had motherfuckers helping him.

Raekwon

He had couple of his little soldiers or whatever around, but it wasn’t never on a professional level. RZA, he just loved beats. He loved music, and he was just in his prime at that time. He never came out. He wasn’t a hang out fellow. When he was just making all that shit, it was perfect. Perfect. He was just in the zone.

Alvin Blanco

Were you recording songs for Ironman during this process, too?

Ghostface Killah

Nah, it was strictly his shit. Strictly his shit. That was it. It was all about his shit. We just knocked that shit out.

Alvin Blanco

Was it always a guest-starring role?

Ghostface Killah

Was it what?

Alvin Blanco

Were you always the guest star? When was it like, “We’re going to make it guest starring Tony Starks”?

Ghostface Killah

Nah, because I was damn near almost on every song. That’s just how it went. I played my part. Rae was there. Whatever. “Come on, n----. We done went to fucking Miami and got kicked out of Barbados. It’s like, we there. N----, we getting it in.” That’s how it came. That was it. Ironman had nothing to do with that. That was just after shit. That was after. That was after.

Alvin Blanco

Are there any lost cuts that haven’t been released that y’all got that y’all are holding back?

Ghostface Killah

A lot of shit got caught up in the flood. A lot of shit got drowned out.

Raekwon

RZA had a flood at his house, um, like maybe two years before the album came out. So he lost mad shit.

Alvin Blanco

Were these complete songs or just beats?

Ghostface Killah

When he lost that shit, after Cuban Linx or before it?

Masta Killa

Right around there somewhere.

Ghostface Killah

Right around that time. He lost a lot of shit. He lost a lot of shit, a lot of fly shit, too. You know what it is, it’s like, coming out of that house, that’s the balance of life, you feel me?

Allah Mathematics

Hey yo, pardon me, it was like two floods, right? Morning Star Road and Michelle Court, right?

Ghostface Killah

Oh, Michelle Court, yeah, he right. Two floods. You feel me? All beats down the drain, so it’s like for all the good that happened, it was like that had to happen for the balance of life. See what I’m saying, every time something goes good, something always go fucked up. You never gonna have the full fuckin’ slate and think you gonna enjoy it without having to feel some type of pain. That’s just I how life is. So I had to look at it like that. Like, “OK, God, I understand what you doing here,” you know what I mean? But like he say, yeah, RZA was fire. He was the motherfucker that took us there, even when probably we ain’t had the belief all the way, he just got up every morning, jetted to Manhattan, took care of business. And he’s so intelligent. He’s like one of the most intelligent brothers I know. And handled his business, and this is where we at right now. I mean, you know, Allah’s first, but without RZA being that vehicle, not to say we wouldn’t be where we at, but it’d been hard as hell, trying to be on some Wu-Tang shit without him right now.

Raekwon

I agree.

Alvin Blanco

Looking back at that time, y’all are all individuals with strong personalities, like you have your own opinions, how was he able to make it go?

Raekwon

Because we believed in him. Once you deal with somebody who you feel has enough knowledge and confidence and credibility to take us somewhere, we just felt like everything he believed in we believed him. And sometimes that’s the greatest way of being a winner is to be confident. You can have nothing, but if you sit around with brothers and everybody is in the same frame of mind, you’re going to win. And that’s what it was. He was the general. He was the one that we felt like... you know, he was the Phil Jackson, you know? On top of it, ’cause we already seen that, he went out there and became successful alone, with even accomplishing to do a record. ’Cause you gotta remember, the GZA and RZA had a deal back then. We was still in the street. These brothers is coming back to the block with they album covers, and to us that was like trophies, that was like bringing home a championship ring. Just to get on, just to get a record deal. That was something that we admired. But, you know, he was so smart, you know, he had knowledge of self. The way he carried his self, you know what I mean, he was a respectable brother. And he was just one of them guys that we was like, “Yo, we believe you,” and everybody said, “Yo, we gonna sit in the back. We gonna be the passengers, and you gonna drive.” And that’s how it was.

Alvin Blanco

I was going to ask, when did y’all get knowledge of self? Because the rhetoric is heavy in your lyrics. A lot of people when they first hear the music, they didn’t get it. Then, when they keep playing it, they begin to understand the supreme alphabet, the mathematics. When did it come into your lives?

Raekwon

It came into my life in ‘87. ‘87.

Ghostface Killah

Around ‘85, my brother’s uncle, that’s when he woke me up. Stop eating pork and all that. I started becoming aware around ‘85.

Cappadonna

Around ‘86, ‘87. Same thing.

Masta Killa

Knowledge is infinite. One of my enlighteners is my brother right here, Allah Mathematics. He’s a brother who was already well educated when I first started studying. I don’t dip from too many wells, but I had some good teachers. This is one of them right here.

Alvin Blanco

Was it always just natural to implement it into music?

Raekown

It was natural. It was natural because it was a way of having some kind of knowledge and walking around not lost. Because it’s so easy to be led in the wrong and hard to be led in the right. Our neighborhood, it was so much going on. You had to either be one way or the other. Either you was a smart cat or you was a respected gunslinger. Or somebody that they wouldn’t dare violate you. At the same time, we was thirsty for knowledge because we had fell out of school in our graduating years. You got to remember that time. Right now we in our 40s right now. I’m 41 right now. Ain’t ashamed. Loving it.

Alvin Blanco

No shame.

Raekwon

At the same time, it was just about having a direction in life. Being able to say, “Damn, if you ain’t going to school, at least have common sense and know how to carry yourself and know why you in these situations that you’re in.” Knowledge was very important to us at that time. It really made us a man. It made us grow up real quick because brothers would come on the block and ask you things. “What’s the total square miles on the planet Earth?” If you really look at it, it’s 196, 940,000 square miles on the whole planet. You can find out, and it’s going to say that. It was just about being eager for knowledge. At that time, RZA was just super sharp. It was him and the GZA. Super sharp. That’s how they got their names. If you think of RZA. Only thing that’s missing is that is the A because of “razor.” And the GZA, the same thing. He was a razor blade, too, at delivering knowledge, and to us that was very important in our role where we was at.

Alvin Blanco

Ghost, was you the first one to use Wu-Tang as slang?

Ghostface Killah

Yeah, I brought the name to RZA. Through the movie, though. Through the [Shaolin Vs Wu-Tang]. I mean, at that time, he never really seen it, so, you know, brought it to him, bugged out. You know. RZA just turned it into the, “We gonna make it a crew.” And, you know, one thing led to another, and this is how we all under that umbrella.

Raekwon

Mmm, I ain’t even know that shit.

[laughter]

Alvin Blanco

When _Cuban Linx _first dropped, was there anything y’all wanted to change when you first heard it?

Raekwon

What you mean?

Alvin Blanco

Like a rhyme you might have wanted to do over?

Ghostface Killah

Let me tell you something, man. When we just fucking made that shit, man, we was listening to that shit in Vine’s fucking Millennium, we fucking hit a deer. Smashed the fucking deer real quick. Deer snot all on the windshield. It just was like, oh shit. It was like a grandfather deer. N---- had big horns and all that shit.

Raekwon

It’s like his eyes was on the windshield looking at us.

Ghostface Killah

You know it was the grandfather.

Alvin Blanco

The grandfather deer.

Ghostface Killah

Yeah. It was like when we made that shit, we just made that shit. There was no take backs, no nothing. It just what it was. It was real shit. Give it to the people. That’s it. Yeah, n----, what? To the next one.

Raekwon

He talking about the deer thing because we was actually...

Ghostface Killah:

...we was coming from Jersey.

Raekwon

We was on our way to go do a interview somewhere, and we was listening to the album.

Ghostface Killah

By the time fucking “Ice Water” came on, we smashed the deer.

Raekwon

Driving like this, listening to the music. This deer just came out of nowhere. We was like, “That’s the music! That’s the music!”

Ghostface Killah

That was it, B. I wouldn’t even change that shit. I feel sorry for him. I don’t know where the fuck he went. That was the energy, though. The Millennium was fucked up and all that.

Raekwon

It tore the car up. Tore his car up.

Ghostface Killah

Yeah. That’s it.

Alvin Blanco

Let me ask y’all this. Cuban Linx, Ironman, Supreme Clientele. Which one?

Ghostface Killah

Those are all our babies, B. You trying to tell me, which seed you like the most?

Raekwon

Love one baby more than another, yeah.

Ghostface Killah

Which one of your babies you love? Shit. Like Rae said, they just different chambers, elements, but still the same glass of water. Because it all comes from the same thing. I don’t know. Those are all my children. You know they just took that off, right?

Raekwon

What? All My Children?

Ghostface Killah

Yeah. It’s gone.

Raekwon

It just must have went off.

Ghostface Killah

It just went off like two days ago. No more.

Raekwon

Holy shit. I know cats be looking at the stories and all that.

Ghostface Killah

Yeah, n----. Watch the stories, n----. All that shit, yeah. No more. N----’s been on for 41 years, B. Yeah. Word. That’s what it is. It’s like that.

Raekwon

Some Luke and Laura shit, right?

Ghostface Killah

All that shit. Yeah. Hell yeah, n----. Word. All these albums is our babies. They come from us. We make them. We write them. We produce them. It’s like, that’s what we gave birth to. That’s something we take pride in. All the shit that we make, we try to go ahead and make it as perfect as we could. Raising them and making the makings and all that shit, so when y’all get it, it’s like, “Oh my God.” Basically, when you see these records and you hear them, it’s like y’all reading our mind. What came from us. Like, “Oh shit. That’s what he gave birth to.” That’s it, from the beats to the rhymes to everything because we had to sit there and really write these fucking songs. Rae might write rhymes in ten minutes. It might take him a couple of days or whatever. Long as they come out right. We get the fucking job done. Writing is no joke. You could sit there and write a bullshit rhyme, but we think about a lot of this shit. That’s how come you got a lot of “I bomb atomically, Socrates philosophies / and high prophecies can’t define it while we dropping these mockeries / Lyrically performed armed robbery / Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me.”

Alvin Blanco

Shout out to Inspectah Deck.

Ghostface Killah

It’s like, who the fuck says that?

Raekwon

That’s the hardest shit in the game right there, boy.

Ghostface Killah

See what I’m saying? It’s like, who the fuck says that? Scientists motherfuckers say that. Like Killa say, we take a page out of each book from everybody. I had to sit back and look at these n----s when I was coming and had to just take all of that shit, whatever I could take, and build me. To say what I say and shit. Everybody, like, damn, yo. That’s what we do. That’s what made this shit so fucking powerful, B. As a family with nine, ten motherfuckers, ain’t nobody never do it like that. With everybody being dope. Everybody. It’s just crazy. All praises due to the most high for allowing it to happen this way in this lifetime. That’s how come I don’t take nothing for granted. I’m very, very, very humble to the situation. Because I know where I come from, and I know what I went through. I know where I’m at right now. I know where I want to go. That’s the way it is.

Alvin Blanco

What’s up with that Rae and Ghost United?

Ghostface Killah

We right here, man.

Alvin Blanco

The album.

Ghostface Killah

It’s whatever. All it takes is beats to be there.

Raekwon

That was something that we was going to do back when we was working on _Bulletproof Wallets _. We always run into our fans that’s like... They respected our combination factor, so at one point we was going to do that album around the time. We didn’t do it. We wound up making it a mixtape and just giving the fans something to vibe out on. We didn’t really get a chance to rock it in the way we wanted to.

Alvin Blanco

Is it still a possibility, though, to do a formal...?

Raekwon

Nah. We growing the bigger and better moves right now. Whatever happened back then, if it ain’t happened yet, we just going to keep moving forward.

Alvin Blanco

Cuban Linx 3?

Raekwon

I’m sitting down with my team right now when we deciding what’s going to be the next thing. I would love to do it. It’s like a title fight. If that’s what the world wants, then I’m going to have to give it to them. I don’t never want to sit down and make any decision alone. I want it to be in a great way where we all could give it what it need to give. We still deciding, though. I feel like anything that I do right now is just only making me a stronger MC. If it ain’t Cuban Linx, it’s still going to be a classic because that’s what I’m going for. To do 3, like I said, who knows? When it’s time to announce it, that’s going to be what it is.