Sway

Benji B

How are you doing, man?

Sway

I’m easy man, I’m cool.

Benji B

Yeah?

Sway

Yeah, man.

Benji B

When did you get in?

Sway

Yesterday.

Benji B

You’ve been busy recently?

Sway

Proper.

Benji B

So for those in the room that haven’t heard your name, haven’t heard your music before, could you please introduce yourself?

Sway

Alright. I go by the name of Sway. I’m an MC in the UK. Right now I’m out of London. The type of music I do is sometimes described as grime, sometimes described as hip-hop. It’s kind of in the middle. It’s a kind of UK hip-hop thing. The reason why I got a bit of reputation in the UK, quite known in the UK right now. As far as the underground, probably the biggest rapper in the underground crossing over. Reason being is because I’ve done everything independently and I came out differently. A lot of you probably don’t know too much about London. I’m not sure how much you know about London but it’s not like the stereotypes. A lot of people stereotype Britain as being castles and with the Queen everywhere you go, number ten Downing Street. Britain is very much like New York. When I went to New York I felt at home because London – not Britain – is very much like New York. Half of the rappers that have come over from America to perform in London have gone back to America without their jewelry. You know, it’s not a joke out in London right now. A lot of guys coming over acting like Britain is going to be tea and crumpets and they get robbed. It’s not a joke out there. I’m representing a side of London that people might not see or that might not come up on the news or in the films, you know what I mean? Yeah, that’s me. Well, there’s more. Independent, I started my own label called Dcypher Productions and all we were doing was selling mixtapes. We were selling them out of the car, driving to stores ourselves, selling them over the internet. Right after shows I would sell them and before we knew it I was the highest mixtape seller in the UK, full stop. And a lot of companies started to take notice, all magazines started writing about me and also I won five awards this year alone on the back of the mixtapes. That’s probably why my name started propelling quite fast.

Benji B

You’re definitely a good person to talk to about the DIY ethic of doing music. Sway won a MOBO award in the UK this year, which is quite an amazing achievement. The MOBO is the “Music of Black Origin” awards that we have in the UK and in your category there was who?

Sway

50 was in the category.

Benji B

50 Cent.

Sway

Roots Manuva, Game, Kano. That’s all I can remember. It was voted for by the British people.

Benji B

And that’s the significance of why we want to talk to Sway today because here is someone who basically has won a very prestigious award, well, awards, over the course of the year. He’s got records being played on daytime radio, on national radio as well, across the country, and like you say, is the highest mixtape seller in the country and he hasn’t got a record deal. Hasn’t ever signed a record deal, hasn’t ever used that machine, right?

Sway

Yeah, yeah.

Benji B

So I want to know about what it’s like doing it yourself?

Sway

It’s hard because the labels, they tempt me every day. From two years ago, when I first started to be played on radio, I have been getting calls from record labels wanting meetings but what I wanted to is create a demand for myself. I knew I had the talent to do what I wanted to do and I knew I had something different. The thing about me that is different to a lot of other rappers in the UK is I’m very humorous, I got a lot of humor in what I do. I got a slight comedy element to the music I do. In a place where people right now are just talking all crazy stuff. In a scene where everyone is talking about guns whatever, drugs whatever, I came out and I have done something a bit different. For example, my first track I shot a video for that was really getting played was a song called “Flo Fashion”, which was actually about credit cards and how people get into debt with credit cards. I was playing this character who ordered a credit card and was going everywhere swiping, buying this, buying that, buying this for her, him, dad, mum, whatever. And at the end of the day, I don’t know what you lot call them, the bailiffs, people that if you don’t pay your bill, they come and start taking your TV and everything. At the end of the track that’s what happens to me as the character. I don’t pay the bill and I end up in debt. I’m pretty sure that everybody out here knows somebody or is in debt themselves. Some kind of debt to a bank or whatever, not paying the bill, everybody is in debt. So it is a track that everybody around the board could relate to and it transcended into a different market for me.

Benji B

Have you got that with you?

Sway

Yeah, I got it somewhere.

Benji B

How long ago did you make that?

Sway

That track was made in 2002. Yeah, it was made in 2002 but it came out in 2004.

Benji B

“Flo Fashion.”

(music: Sway – “Flo Fashion”/ applause)

Sway

Yeah, that was it basically for you lot. Sometimes when I play something like that to a crowd of people, I don’t know where you are from, I’m not sure you can understand every word I’m saying. In London I’m pretty clear. I’m probably one of the rappers with the most clarity, I would say, in the UK. But sometimes you lot, especially Americans, they still don’t get it. They don’t understand for some strange reason, I’m speaking English, you know? Your language is English but for some reason don’t understand what I’m talking about half the time.

Benji B

But when you go to the Bronx or Brooklyn you can understand that, right?

Sway

I listen to some of the most obscure hip-hop, I listen to some American artist that American people don’t even listen to. I’ll go to New York and say, “Yeah, I’m looking for the new Suga Free album,” and everyone is looking at me weird, “Who is this Suga Free guy?” It is weird. I listen to a lot of stuff and understand it. We’ve grown to understand a lot of the American slang and a lot of the sayings and things like that. But somehow, for some strange reason, we haven’t been able to get the same respect when us doing our thing. Like Dizzee, Dizzee does quite well over here.

Benji B

Dizzee Rascal.

Sway

Yeah. He does quite well in America as far as UK artist goes. Still, it’s not as well as he should do. He’s a very talented guy. I went on tour with Dizzee at the beginning of last year and that’s how I widened my fan base. I had a friend that knew him and then we contacted him and it was like, “Look, I just want to set up your show. Just want to start warm up the show.” He knew who I was and everything and he was like, “Yeah, I understand it, we can deal with that.” So I went on tour with him and I was just effing up the tour. Everywhere I was going I was selling no less than like 100 CDs a night. You know, just right after coming off the stage and signing them for people. That was the incentive for selling it. Just sign it and everyone wanted one. Like, I would do a freestyle where people would tell me what to rap about, and there was another thing: I was rapping about downloading, which was very current at the time because I got a track – you lot are understanding what I’m saying, right? Yeah? I got a track called “Download”, yeah? Everywhere I do that people respond to it well. What should we get onto now?

Benji B

We will talk about being an UK artist a bit later. I mean, you still haven’t put an actual album out of original material. There is original material on your mixtape as well, but it’s a classic mixtape, it’s you on other people’s beats and stuff like that and doing covers and whatever. Just on the mixtapes alone how many did you sell?

Sway

13,000.

Benji B

13,000? In the UK that’s quite a lot considering that you are doing that on your own speed. What was the inspiration for you to think, “I’m not going to go into the studio straight away, I’m going to get a mixtape and get out there?” Is that an idea borrowed from the States?

Sway

The whole mixtape thing is an American idea. Usually, with mixtapes from American artists is tracks that never made it to their album or tracks that are going to be really big, and they play like two seconds of it, wheel it back and throw sound effects all over it.

Benji B

Is that a clearance issue?

Sway

It’s just like, “Go and buy their album!” They play it for two seconds, wheel it back and you’re going to buy the album. You understand? It is a marketing tool. But in the UK people are getting the wrong idea. They were copying that style but nobody cared about the music, if that makes any sense. If you do a track, play two seconds and you put sound effects all over it, if you’re not Jay-Z, no one is going to want to buy the album, no one is going to care. I have done it in a different way where I put a lot of full songs on it. Practically on the two mixtapes together there are like four albums worth of original material that I could put out and call it an album. Another thing that I have done was a lot of marketing for myself. A lot of hip-hop records that are big in America are often big in the UK like three months later. Three months to six months down the line. There was that J-Kwon, dude who has done the tune “Tipsy.” I know that his record label in the UK, I can’t remember what record label it was, I know they had an office in the UK. So I knew that this record, this was before it was big in the UK, I knew that this record was going to get a major push in the UK. I knew there was going to be posters, I knew there was going to be a radio campaign on it. So I thought if I do an alternate version, a UK version, maybe every DJ that the record label gives it to, they play my version right after. So I have done my version called “Pepsi,” which was about not getting tipsy, you know? People pissing all over the toilet and stuff at house parties. Because he has done a video about a house party and it was all going well. I have done a track about the house party going terrible. I have done that, I gave it to all the DJs and it was just crazy in the UK.

Benji B

Blew up.

Sway

Yeah. Anywhere you heard “Tipsy,” right after you would hear “Pepsi” straight after. DJs were really up. The more money, the more marketing, the record label didn’t even notice. They were promoting me, they didn’t even notice, for free. Someone would say, “Have you heard the J-Kwon – ‘Tipsy?’” People would say, “No, but have you heard Sway – ‘Pepsi?’” And I started doing that. Another thing was, I won’t lie, Americans, a lot of rappers they take the piss in the UK. Take the piss, you know? Turn up late for shows. So I wanted a lot of people from America know that you can’t keep on taking the piss when our currency is actually a bit stronger than yours. They have done a competition for Nas’s album. It was called the Streets Disciple competition. Do you know “Thief’s Theme?” The album “Thief’s Theme” was on, they were like “Yes!” All the UK artists get on this competition to be on Nas' UK release. And me, personally, I thought this was a bit of a piss-take. If it is Nas' proper album and Nas respects you, he is going to holler at you and let you be on his album, but to do a competition to exploit the UK market I thought was a piss-take.

Benji B

He should be on the album full stop.

Sway

Exactly. Don’t try and exploit the market. And there were a lot of good rappers who were entering this competition. I was speaking to people like, “This is a kid’s thing. Ain’t no competition to be on an album, just do your own thing.” But I, however, did enter the competition but the version of “Thief’s Theme” that I gave in was not what they expected. I didn’t enter to win, I entered to let people know that he need to stop taking the piss when it comes to hip-hop. I have done a version called “The Robber’s Theme” and I play that to you now.

Benji B

Yeah, we gotta hear that.

Sway

Yeah, that has done quite well in the UK.

Benji B

”The pound is stronger than the dollar.”

Sway

Yeah, it starts with the line ”The pound is stronger than the dollar.”

(music: Sway – “The Robber’s Theme” / Sway fades music)

As you might have guessed I never won the competiton or nothing. I made an impact.

Benji B

So tell me a little bit about the variety of styles you grew up with musically and what your background is and that kind of thing.

Sway

Growing up, I was into all different kinds of music. From groups like Madness, which is a really big UK group, that’s one of my favorite groups of all time. Anything from Madness to Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, very into Bone Thugs-N-Harmony. A lot of people didn’t understand what they were saying. I used to rewind and try to find out what they were saying. Proper Bone Thugs-N-Harmony fan. On the flipside I was into George Michael. I won’t lie. I had the CD. When the boys used to come around I would hide it [laughter]. I would play it when no one was around, different diversities. I was into drum & bass, my cousins do drum & bass. They are like part of the Metalheadz clique, which blew up like five or ten years back.

Benji B

Who was that?

Sway

DJ Ink and Loxy.

Benji B

Right, right.

Sway

They are my family members under Goldie and that. So it’s like all different kinds of music, man. I didn’t discriminate. I was really into MC Hammer. I won’t lie, MC Hammer, Kriss Kross, you name it. Music with a lot of commercial appeal. But at the same time I could get down with N.W.A.. I was never anything fake. A lot of people were fake, they pretended that they only were into the hardcore because they thought they were them kind of people. I know what kind of person I am so I can listen to whatever I want. No one is going to tell me shit. Yeah, so I was very broad-minded about music, from rock to hip-hop. The other thing is that I was born in London but my parents are from West Africa, a place called Ghana. When I was born a couple of months later I was taken to Ghana, I stayed there a couple of years, I came back just in time to start school. When I came back I had a strong African accent, very African morals within me. At the same time when I was growing up I learned to adapt to the whole British culture. That is something that comes out in both of my styles. One thing about being an artist, if you’re going to stand out, you can’t sound like anybody. People are going to make comparisons forever. You need someone to make comparisons and you have to see it as a positive thing. When I first came out and people were like, “Ah, UK Ludacris, Slick Rick, Dizzee.” I was getting a lot comparisons and I was getting angry. I was like, “What the fuck are they talking about, I’m Sway! Why do they keep on making those comparisons?” But after a while you realize, number one: People need to identify you by something in order to get their mind around it. And number two: When people are comparing you to acts on a big caliber you need to know that it is somewhere where you can go, and they are seeing you on a big level.

Benji B

It’s a big compliment.

Sway

Yeah, as a compliment. If people were comparing me to crap acts, this is where you need to start questioning them, like, “What are you talking about?” But to be compared to some of the biggest acts in hip-hop was a good thing for me. As an artist you have got to take the elements that make you. Nobody is going to have the exact same combination of elements. Your dad might be Polish, your mum might be Swedish and you were born in Zambia or something like that. You’ve got to put that all into your music because 50 Cent’s dad ain’t Polish, you understand? He’s not going to have the same style as you. You need to put all your personal heritage and stuff into your music and create yourself a niche. That’s what I did. There was no one doing what I have done, like merging the whole African with the British humor along with the American influences within hip-hop, and that’s why I managed to get through a lot more.

Benji B

Let’s talk about finding your identity musically, because certainly with hip-hop it’s very significant. You’re basically the first generation in the UK that has really spoken on records like you speak in real life. In the UK we went through quite a few years of people wanting to sound as American as possible when they were recording hip-hop. How important is that to you to just represent? Because in a way the whole point of hip-hop has always been about representing where you’re from anyway.

Sway

Exactly. That’s hip-hop for you, man. I don’t want to feel like I’m slagging off Americans all the time. With all respect, but a big American rapper came to London recently. I don’t want to say his name. Not even that big, he’s alright. He requested to see me and he was like, “I heard you’re the hottest thing,” and blah blah. And the first thing I said to him was, “You don’t respect.” That kind of threw him off, called the meeting off and everything, and he went wherever he went, and I went where I went. Sometimes you have to let people know. A lot of TV, like MTV for us, you turn on the TV in Britain, a lot of American programs. We get everything, don’t get it twisted. Sex and the City, we’ve got Seinfeld, Frasier, Simpsons, whatever. A lot of American crap on the TV. Naturally, when you do entertainment yourself you mimic your idea of entertainment. For example, one of the biggest acts to come out of the UK and do hip-hop is Slick Rick. When he went over his accent was there, but he took in American culture a lot. The thing that separated him from a lot of people was that he had a little bit of the British twang. He never had it that strong. He had a little bit of the twang, and he had the British humor and he was doing the American stuff. It was like something different for them. There is another crew called who were destined to do a big thing. Dash came over and he messed them about a bit. Damon Dash was saying he was going to sign them and all that, and he never [did]. So they ended up rolling with Dipset, and now they represent Dipset in the UK. They’re doing their thing, and there is a lot of American artists realising that, “Look, those British boys got something going on,” and everybody wants their DTP UK or Def Jam UK. There are a lot of things going on. It is important the way I speak and make sure you lot understand. Over the years we’ve learned to understand how a lot of you lot speak. It is equally as hard to understand what a lot of American rappers are saying as it is to understand what a lot of British people are saying. Come, work together and work at it.

Benji B

And what do you think is the potential for it to cross over? Because even within in the UK a lot of music that you’ve been talking about, and the artists that you’ve been talking about are very London-centric.

Sway

Yeah, definitely.

Benji B

So it’s about what is the potential to break out of London into the UK, one, and then two, into the rest of the world?

Sway

Out of London into the UK you need to have that X-factor, you need to have something different that’s going to transcend. London is London and Coventry is Coventry. You can’t just say “Great Britain” and that’s it. They are very different societies, very different culturally. London is very multi-cultural. There is everybody over there, black, white, Asian, you name it, all in London. But a lot of other places in Britain there is mainly a white population, excluding Birmingham, Manchester.

Benji B

The major cities basically.

Sway

Yeah, exactly. Most of the major cities are very multi-cultural and a lot of artists forget that sometimes in their streak zone. When they make music they’re making music purely for the streets, and you know the subject matters that someone living on a farm in Coventry can’t relate to. They might have a gun as well, but it might be a different type of gun and he be shooting cows instead of people [laughter]. Like, he can’t relate to what people are talking about in the manner all the time. When artists remember that and they start talking about universal topics, that’s when you transcend into the UK. As far as breaking out nobody in the UK has really broke out properly, on a hip-hop, on a urban level I should say. No one has really done that, so there is still opportunity for someone to come out and do that. I don’t know who that might be, but there is still opportunity for someone to come out and do that. I think that not just Americans, but people around the world in general, Germany, France, Sweden, are getting their head around the fact that we’re going to keep our accents and that we’re going to do what we’re doing. We are going to be taken seriously. You ask Mario Winans how serious London is, he’ll tell you, because he didn’t go back with his jewelry [laughter]. Who else? Ja Rule, that guitar chain he had someone was wearing it around the corner from me. I know the person that took it. He came back to America and he got another one made. I’m telling you this as a fact, Ja Rule got robbed. Barefaced, I was there when it happened. A lot of people when they leave and come back to America they don’t tell everybody what it’s like. They don’t tell everybody, but I’m telling you firsthand as a Londoner, it’s not no joke. We’re people to be taken seriously and we’re not going to stop doing what we’re doing until we start getting taken seriously.

Benji B

On the subject of London and other artists coming up now, there is a lot of press around the world about the grime scene. Maybe you could just articulate that for people that don’t have first hand knowledge of grime and UK hip-hop, and where everything fits in your mind.

Sway

OK. There’s a war going on in the UK right now, and it’s between two scenes, which are very similar. Now, I don’t come into this war because apparently I’m both of the styles of music. You got grime and you got UK hip-hop. I don’t know if anybody has heard of Blak Twang. Anybody heard of Blak Twang? He’d be a good representative of UK hip-hop. Good UK hip-hop, not like fake UK hip-hop, that’s Blak Twang. Let me say someone else as I keep only saying this guy. Who else? Let me think who else is representative. Have you heard of Wiley? Wiley, he’s a good representation of grime. So you got Wiley on one side and Blak Twang on the other. Now grime is a very street music, it is very street. You could have like five words in a whole verse for grime. This is a quote from a really grand rap, “Ah, I’ll crack your skull / Ah, I’ll crack your skull,” and he just keeps on saying it, and everybody goes mad for it. What else is there? Grime is really grimey, it is real street music.

Benji B

Give us some other grime hooks.

Sway

Grime hooks?

Benji B

Yeah.

Sway

”You don’t want to bring arm’s house / I’ll bring arm’s house to your mum’s house.” What else is there? “Killer, killer, real real / killer, killer, still, still / If you don’t like killer you can suck your mum.” This is quotes from grand artists. Grime is crazy. When you see the energy of grime it is a very street music. Whereas UK hip-hop is more laid back, intellectual type lyrics. It is the difference between 50 Cent and the Roots.

Benji B

But it’s also a tempo thing.

Sway

It is. Grime is very energetic and fast, you know? It is good, it is a breakthrough music.

Benji B

And that’s about 140 BPM?

Sway

135 to 140, yeah. But a lot of hip-hop stuff is starting to become that tempo through the Dirty South stuff.

Benji B

Exactly, and that’s where the crossovers come in the UK because a lot of grime people relate a lot to crunk, kind of.

Sway

Yeah, Lil’ Jon came over and he loved grime, you know? He was at all the grime events.

Benji B

Because it’s like that type of half-step thing.

Sway

Exactly. It is a very similar type of music. I could play you an example that kind of sits on both sides, UK hip-hop and grime. This is a track that everybody related to, because I made it like an anthem for the UK. It’s me featuring my guy Pyrelli and it is called “Up Ur Speed”. Meaning, “just get off of your ass and do something.” Not up your speed on the road or drive faster. Has anyone heard of Fleetwood Mac? We’ve interpolated a track called “The Chain” by Fleetwood Mac, which they cleared surprisingly. Because I’ve been doing a lot of interpolations that people don’t clear. So we got it cleared, shot a video for it and everything and it is called “Up Ur Speed.”

(music: Sway feat. Pyrelli – “Up Ur Speed”)

Sway

That’s a perfect example of UK hip-hop / grime.

[applause]

Benji B

So we have talked about grime, talked about UK hip-hop, but basically, when it comes down to it, the importance, especially after you’ve been talking about America and all that stuff, really the reason you bringing all that up is because it is important to build something yourself.

Sway

Yeah, definitely, man.

Benji B

Build your own scene, and that is what we’re talking about here, right? It doesn’t matter if you are from Venezuela, or Sweden, or whatever. Basically it is, “Do you.”

Sway

You know what, lad? Bottom line is if you’re building up and create your own undeniable height, people are going to be on to you. You can’t go to these record labels, especially these major record labels. It doesn’t make no sense. You have to realize this is where people, a lot of artists get it twisted and they get their feelings hurt. A record label, particularly a major one, is a business. That’s all it is, a business, a way of making money, you understand? They sell chocolate bars, if that makes any sense. They don’t know what they’re made of, don’t give a toss who made them. As long as the people that come into the store like the chocolate bars, they sell it to you. They don’t care what’s in them, anything. They sell chocolate bars just like the man in the store on the corner. He sells chocolate bars, he doesn’t give a toss who’s made it or what they’re made of. Understand, that’s a record label. Now what you have to do for record labels, you have to build up a demand for your chocolate bar. You have to give people a taster, let people taste it. So they can go to the store and say, “Yeah, I like this.” You have to make your own one, and that’s basically what I did. I came up through the battle scene before 8 Mile came out and it got all commercial. There was a battle scene in the UK and I was part of it, I was doing my thing on that. I was good in cussing kids, as a kid in school, you know? People didn’t really want to chat shit to me because I was just going to embarrass you. I was that type of kid, I would dedicate the whole lesson to embarrassing you. I have done that. Once I’ve learned how to rhyme it was a dangerous combination of being able to cuss people while rhyming at the same time. I took that combination to the battle stage and hurt a lot of feelings. After a while it got overrated and everyone was getting involved and I ducked out blissfully because I didn’t want to be known as a battle MC. I love the tracks you’ve heard today. In fact, all of the tracks you’ve heard today I produced them myself. I was actually into production before rapping. I got a four-track when I was 14, beatboxed one part, then done the bassline with my mouth on the second track, and then the hi-hats on the third track, and then just rapped over the fourth track. I was very into that, I had a Fostex, some old Fostex that I had for like five years. After a while, when I left school, I started doing what I needed to do I got myself some money and bought myself an MPC and started building on that. I don’t sample a lot in my music, if I get an idea I get a bassline, someone that plays the bass to come and play the bassline. Or someone who can actually play the keys to come and do that. So a lot of my music has got a live element feel and at the same time an electrical feel because I dabble with things myself. So it’s not about waiting for the record labels, and for the UK, I’m the perfect example of someone not waiting for the record labels. Now, potentially I’ve got the option of five record labels I could go to tomorrow, including three majors and two major independents. Everyone is interested in taking my whole Dcypher imprint because of what I’ve built up. I proved that I could make eight out of ten people like what I’m doing once exposed to it, and that can multiply. The way they see it is if you can make eight out of ten people like what you’re doing, you can make 16 out of 20, and so on. Even if you’re in a small environment of people that are not really into your kind of music, you got to exploit yourself within your environment. That’s how you get ripples, you cause ripples and it transcends into other markets. That’s all I can say, man. The independent way is the best way, it is the best way forward for people that want to be good creatively. If you want to be a pop band and you just want to sing songs that other people wrote for you, then fair enough. Go to a record label, I’m sure they’ve got a million songs and songwriters that sit there all day writing formulas that are going to do well. If you’re good looking and all that, you can do that. On the other hand, I’m very creative and I don’t want anybody telling me anything about my music. So the only way I can prove to people that my music is what is going to be going on, is by letting the people talk, and that’s what I’ve done. I gave it straight to the people, and the people gave it to the press, and the press gave it to the labels. That’s how it worked.

Benji B

But you didn’t just give it to the people, I mean, you were literally everywhere for a while. How old are you?

Sway

23.

Benji B

You’re 23 and you basically got the game sussed. Well, certainly from a London perspective better than most people ten years your senior. It is an amazing situation, you are doing completely you, purely you, and being you, and doing what you do creatively, but you’ve already talked about subject matters so you can bring in people outside your immediate surroundings. You’ve already talked about thinking, “I’m going to do this record because I know it’s going to get promotion and therefore I’m going to get promotion.” A lot of what you’re doing, especially with the mixtapes and the way that you’ve achieved what you’ve achieved so far and so young, has been very calculated and clever in sussing out the business. How are you so business savvy at such an early stage in your career?

Sway

A lot of business, like I gave that whole chocolate analogy, is common sense, you know? People like it, they buy it. It’s that simple. There is no weird science to it, no nothing. But in order to get people to like it they have to be exposed to it. You’ve got to expose it to the people. If they like it, you take it. It’s really simple, it’s playschool stuff. I can tell a three-year-old this stuff. A lot of people get caught up in the whole industry. You don’t have to learn everything about the technical side, about what companies and agencies such and such is signed to. Just make your music! Make your music, there are people that go to university and study these things, management. There are lots of people in the equation that could be doing them things for you. You just have to focus on your music and make sure that the music you’re creating is original, stand out, and the most important thing: Music that you enjoy, music you’re happy with. Because if you make music that you don’t enjoy, it is detectable. You can see someone who is making music for the money and they usually don’t get that far. You can see people who are doing it for the passion. It is a combination of things, and I forgot to say: Luck. Don’t get it twisted, you can be the most talented person in the world with the most amazing songs. If you play it to a crowd of people who can’t do anything for you, then you’re fucked, basically. Luck will put a person who knows a person who knows a person in that room of ten people for you. You have to create your own luck, you’ve got to give yourself loads of avenues. You can’t just be in one place and hope that someone is going to be there. It’s like you said that I was everywhere for a while. I was on lots of people’s tracks, I was in every club selling the CDs, outside of the club selling the CDs.

Benji B

That’s a good point, because when you were talking about work rate, you’re definitely not too cool for school.

Sway

Yeah, of course not.

Benji B

You’re there giving the CD out outside the club, you’re there everywhere, you weren’t too cool to do any of that stuff.

Sway

You shouldn’t be.

Benji B

Talk to me a little bit about your work ethics on that level.

Sway

A lot of artists have got their whole mind frames caught up in the whole pride thing, like, “I don’t have to be outside the clubs selling the CD.” But they don’t sell in the stores either, so what do you want to do? You just want to sit there with a box of CDs? I didn’t want to sit there with a box of CDs, so I thought I’d go directly to the people. I’d take my little Discman play it to people. If I’m in the car, I play it for people through the car and be like, “You like this? Blah, blah, blah,” and I play them the stuff I like the most. I rarely missed a sell. I rarely, rarely missed a sell. This whole thing, lad, it’s getting a bit dangerous now. Every now and then when I can read the crowd well I go into the crowd after show, speak with the people, see what they appreciate. People are like, “I like this lyrical view of Sway. I like that track, why don’t you make it a single?” Only recently I’ve been getting into confrontations into the crowd because you’ve got people that don’t like to see you doing well. That’s just life. Don’t go on like something you’re not, understand? A lot of people go on like divas before their time. You haven’t made any money, you haven’t done shit, you’re nothing. You have to remember that. At this moment in time you need people more than people need you. Whatever it takes, if you have to be a runner in the studio making tea for people, do it! Swallow your pride and do it. It’s nothing, you’re making tea for people who are in a higher position than you. And another thing I tell people: If someone is in a higher position than you, never make them feel threatened. Don’t go into a record label and let people know you know everything. The minute you do that they feel threatened and they don’t feel in the position of power, and they just shun you, they push you to the side. You have to go in dumb, you understand? You have to go in dumb, you have to make people feel like they’re teaching you something. That’s the way they take you under the wing. They take you under the wing before they know that you passed them you move on to the next person. Act all dumb, you understand? That’s life, you act all dumb. I’m only telling you lot this, I’m only telling you lot this. I knew a lot of stuff about the music industry before I got into it properly. But I played dumb with a lot of people, I acted like I don’t know what I was doing half of the time. I acted like everything was luck. People didn’t know that I’ve calculated the whole “Pepsi” thing. People thought it was just a beat I came and spat over. I knew it was going to be big, I’ve done my research. I saw it was big in America, I was looking for the next big thing. One real rule is: People in the position of power – please don’t make them feel threatened. Because once you do that you ruin your chances of going past them. They are going to be on the edge and they are going to be alert to what you’re dealing with. These are my tips for you lot.

Benji B

Well, you got a lot of things sussed [laughter].

Sway

Yeah. A lot of people are probably sitting there thinking, “He’s only 23 what is he talking about?” But I’m only 23 and I’ve done it, haven’t I? So you have to listen [laughter]).

Benji B

Definitely. And one thing that I think is amazing is that you’ve done it, but totally on your own terms. You’re not in any box, you can literally do anything tomorrow and people would accept it because they don’t say, “Oh, no, no, no, no, he does like grime, or he only does soul, or he only does hip-hop.” How do you avoid the box?

Sway

When I’ve first done this mixtape thing, basically this is… [shows mixtape] You can see it on two front covers of the mixtape. The first mixtape, the initial idea was to let it sell for three months, make enough money to make the money back and then make the next one. But it sold for longer than three months. When I was ready with the next one I was going to the stores and they were still ordering the first one. So it didn’t make sense to put the second one in the stores. So I let it branch out for longer and stuff like that. On the mixtapes there is a range of different styles, from fast to really slow to grime to hip-hop to drum & bass. All of my influences came out on the mixtapes and it means like throwing all ideas together. I’m a perfectionist, but I had to swallow my pride on the mixtapes and experiment. I had to put things out there that I wasn’t 100% sure of within my heart. I had to do that. There’s a lot of people in their bedrooms crafting the most best masterpiece ever, which will never come out, because they don’t know when it’s got to that masterpiece stage. I had to swallow my pride and just really get rid of my perfectionist’s self and to say, “Look, I’ve done this track I need to know how people feel about it.” And trust me, people’s opinions can manipulate how you feel about your own music. Believe it or not. If you make a track that you’re not certain of, there’s a reason why you’re not certain of it. You’ve got the capacity to love it and you’ve got the capacity to hate it. Sometimes people out there make that decision for you. You don’t have to be embarrassed or feel like you don’t know what you’re doing if you’re not sure about a track. There’s a reason why it was made in your mind, because somewhere along the line you’ll like it or you like the direction it was going in. I don’t believe in people holding back material or waiting. Just lay it all out there. Like I said, the more lottery tickets you buy the more chance there is of you winning the lottery. You buy one ticket, you got one chance of winning this. It’s as simple as that. Come up with an idea that’s good enough quality-wise, well presented, put it out there, give it to people. Give it to DJs. Get feedback. Get opinion. Get people talking about you to other people and so on.

Benji B

So you basically didn’t pigeonhole yourself early on, that’s the key?

Sway

It is. The first impressions are really important. Sometimes first impressions are really hard to erase. If you come in a certain way people expect you to maintain that sort of style. Some people can’t come out of the music they make. I’ve worked with a lot of people like that. Making a certain style of music. You can tell that they want to come out of that box, but they’re scared about how the public are going to feel.

Benji B

How thick is your skin when it comes to criticism?

Sway

In the beginning I was taking criticism bad. I won’t lie to you. The first track I put was called “On My Own” and was the first track after the whole battle thing. People were like, “Sway can do a track like that?” It was a very personal track, very dark, very about my life at the time. The things I was saying in that track that I don’t agree with, and it was very personal. I remember a journalist from a magazine really dissing it, really going at me. I don’t know who this guy was or where he was from, but for some reason he didn’t like me, and I thought it was on a personal level. For a minute we were going to look for him and make him change the article. I was really considering looking for this guy. Chasing up people, you know, but we were chasing him in a good way, “I really want to speak to this guy, talk about doing some work.” People were giving us the contact. And then it came to the point where we either hurt this guy and have everybody label me a thug in the industry. In Britain it is not like in America. You can’t bully your way in the industry. They just call the police and that’s it, you understand? You can’t go into a record label and go on like, “Sign me!” They would just be like, “No!” Haul me out, put in 999, which is like 911. “Sway is here making noise!” And I would go to prison [laughter]. You just have to be normal, man. I thought, “Alright, I have to swallow it. If I ever meet him, I’m going to tell him what I think about him. I’m not going to touch him.” That’s how it was, but after a while a lot of people started giving me good reviews. I still get the oddball every now and then that doesn’t understand me. When people don’t understand things, it’s just wack. I’ve got a lot of up-and-coming people around me that are going through what I was going through with these people. You’re going to get bad criticism, you’re going to get bad feedback. The funny thing about it is that nine out of ten people can say that your track is the best, the most wonderful track they’ve ever heard in their life. That one person that says, “Your track is shit!” is the person that you’re going to be interested in the most. It is the one that is going to throw you off, and it is actually the guy you’re going to listen to. You’re going to be angry and hurt. Don’t think that way. Think about the nine people that like your track. If it is good music, remember he’s outnumbered. Come on, man. I used to get that all the time, get loads of good reviews and one bad one will come up and will ruin my whole day. You forget about the good ones easily. When something is good just realize it. Cut the ratios. When you get nine bad ones and one good one, that’s when you need to stop going to university and start finding a job to do [laughter].

Benji B

We’ve got a lot of producers in this room and it will be definitely of interest to know that on the material we’ve been hearing you’re not just on the mic, you’re on the boards as well. You produced most of your own stuff, right?

Sway

Yeah.

Benji B

It is amazing that you’re basically the business man, the entrepreneur, the MC and the producer all in one. Could you tell me a bit about producing and your take on that, and what’s important to you when it comes to producing music?

Sway

For me, it’s all the same game. Production, rapping, it’s the same game. Rapping, my mouth is just another instrument to me, the words I use are other keys, that’s how it works. It is the same thing. You’ll find a lot of producers, a lot of rappers that can produce, a lot of producers that can rap. A lot of them make beats and do raps in their head. Never let it out. Or they make a beat and they think, “Oh, this guy would sounding good over it,” and they start rapping someone else’s lyrics in their head. That means you’ve got the capacity to rap. A true musician makes the music and does the lyrics, everything. Because of the way the industry is now, it is kind of surprising to find someone who raps, and produces, and plays an instrument. That’s like amazing, because the industry has gone so poppy and so artificial that it’s actually amazing to find something as simple as that. As far as I’m concerned, if you write the songs, you should be able to sing them. That’s just my mentality. If you can’t sing that song, just don’t write it. Don’t write for other people giving your ideas and stuff to other people. It’s your personality that’s going into the music, so you’re going to deal with that yourself. What was the original question?

Benji B

With the production thing, seeing as we were talking about the do-it-yourself ethic, what basic equipment did you make all of the original mixtape stuff on? You must have been 17, 18 years?

Sway

Nah. I’ve been working on an MPC since like I was 16. I only used the MPC for the drums, I don’t use it for anything else. Every now and then, like, if I don’t have enough space or anything, I like to sample through what I’ve done onto the MPC and just put the whole beat on there. As far as I’m concerned, I’ve tried a lot of other modules for drums and MPCs are the best. Sound module-wise I use a Novation for basslines whenever I’m playing stuff, JV-1080. I’ve got a couple of other sound modules. I’m a bit scared of the whole “everything on the computer” thing. That kind of messes with my head, I can’t comprehend it, can’t get around it yet. So I still use a lot of things and sync them up.

Benji B

When you’re 23 and you’ve had street success and musical people love what you’re doing, and you’ve got a lot of play on specialist radio, and you want to go to the next stage, and you’ve got five different labels, three of whom are major labels who in the UK aren’t really signing anyone, no one’s getting signed that isn’t truly pop, to have those deals on the table, how are you able to just walk away from that and say, “You know what? I’m not really ready for that yet?”

Sway

It’s got to a point where I need to see how that does in February in order to sign to any of them.

Benji B

But you’re putting it out yourself is what I’m saying.

Sway

Yeah, it’s coming out on my own label.

Benji B

How do you afford to make an album that is properly mastered?

Sway

Music pays for itself after a while. You just need to get that initial money. The first mixtape I was selling paid for the second mixtape which helped pay for the video and pay for recording of the album. It’s a snowball effect. In the beginning when I dropped my first mixtape I never even had a manager. Everyone was phoning me direct, magazines were phoning me direct and I’d speak to them. I never had a press guy and I got press. Probably out of the urban artists I got the most press in the UK. People are so interested in what I’m doing.

Benji B

Did you do the “Little Derek” song?

Sway

Nah, I haven’t produced that. That was produced by Shux.

Benji B

Let’s check that out, that’s the next single, right?

Sway

Yeah. Shux is the guy I was telling you about who plays all the instruments, he’s really good. I told him what I wanted for that song, what type of feel I wanted to go for. I came back the next day and he came up with that beat, with the “Little Derek” beat.

Benji B

What did you tell him?

Sway

I told him that I wanted the harpsichords. Told him I wanted something very vintage. A very British feel to it. But at the same time I’m very into West Coast music like as far as that American, I’m very into West Coast. DJ Quik is one of the best producers of all time, one of my favorites. Nothing is messing with them kind of boys there. So I’ve told him that I wanted like a live bassline, because a lot of West Coast people they do live bass instrumentation. But I wanted it to move like my flow. I wanted it to move like how I flow. This is what he came up with and I’ve done over it. The track is called Little Derek because my real name is Derek, and it is about me growing up.

(music: Sway – “Little Derek” / applause)

Benji B

And who’s the guest MC on that one?

Sway

A girl called Baby Blue, one of the hottest female rappers in the UK right now. I’ve done a lot of work with her.

Benji B

So apart from the album coming out in February, what does the future hold for Sway? What do you like to be doing in three years’ time?

Sway

Films. I’m really, really, really into films. I’m really, as you could’ve probably guessed from my rap style, I’m very dramatical. Films is the next step for me as far as writing them. I’ve been stuck on one for like four years, like writing one. It’ll finally get finished one day. But I kind of like go to it, write a bit, come back the next day, leave it for a couple of weeks, write. I’m not going to say that it is cool, but it is probably be my first ever film.

Benji B

As a screenwriter?

Sway

Yeah. I’m writing it how I write my songs. The way it is, it is very poetic. A very poetic film. The way people are going to be speaking, everyone is going to sound like me in the film. If that makes any sense, but different personality than me. It’s going to be weird. I don’t want to talk too much about it because it is not done, and I’m stuck with that scene right now, so it’s frustrating. Yeah, films, music, this This Is My Demo project is exactly what it was intended to be: my demo project. I really wanted to see the response of it. I wanted to see how well it does, how far it goes. That’s how I learn off that. There are a lot of set up songs on it, meaning for example that “Pretty Ugly Husband,” the one with the man beaten up. On the second album the track is getting done again, but it’s from the kid’s perspective. Now there was a kid involved in that story that I don’t mention. But if you hear it, the man gets shot at the end, and it’s actually the kid that does him. So it’s going to be exactly the same story again but with the child. Instead of rapping as the husband beating up the wife, rapping as the child witnessing all this happen. This continuation on my third album as well. I do a lot of planning, and I do a lot of writing beforehand. A lot of tracks, I wrote them in 2002, 2003. I moved on and done new tracks, but they can’t come out until all of the other stuff is exploited, because I feel it’s good enough to go. I’m very into people being real.

Benji B

What are some of the artists you feel represent that?

Sway

Tech N9ne, I like Tech N9ne a lot. Don’t know if you’ve heard of him [turns to audience audience]. You haven’t heard of Tech N9ne? Well, that’s a first. What else? Not that many people, you know? Tech N9ne [laughter]. Suga Free.

Audience member

Who else would you reckon from the London or perhaps North London scene that other people should hear about?

Sway

Pyrelli, my protégé. Not even my protégé, I shouldn’t call him that. My partner, Pyrelli. He’s something different, he’s a lot more abstract than me.

Audience member

You called him your favorite rapper in the past.

Sway

Yeah, definitely, and that’s not even because I roll with him. He’s inspired me a lot, we learned from each other a lot. It’s like we feed off the back of each other crazy. You got like the girl you heard on my track, Baby Blue. You got Bruiser, who is like the ultimate British hooligan. “That’s how it is. Give me some. Let’s have him.” He’s really crazy. You hear Bruiser in the studio he’s banging his head all over the place. Bruiser is crazy. Obviously, the Streets, I respect the Streets a lot, Basement Jaxx a lot.

Audience member

Biggs.

Sway

Biggs, yeah. I was going to get to Biggs. Don’t tell him I didn’t say it. Biggs, Wiley, Dizz. Who else is there? Who else is coming through? A couple of people, there are a lot of artists coming through, but it takes a lot of tracks for me to put you in my list. It takes a lot of versatility and a “can you do it again?” kind of thing.

Benji B

And what about just music people, not necessarily MCs or vocalists?

Sway

Music in general?

Benji B

Coming from any style.

Sway

What? Current music or?

Benji B

New, old, whatever.

Sway

New, old. A lot of different people, man. I won’t lie. My favorite artist of all time, and this is never going to change, is Michael Jackson. I don’t care what anybody says. If he’s done it, I don’t know if he’s done it or not. You know, people should keep their children away from him [laughter]. If you don’t want Michael to touch your children, tell them to stop leaping on him. He’s got Neverland, so obviously children are going to go there. Just don’t let your kids go there and there won’t be no problem. I won’t lie [laughter]. I don’t know if he’s done it or not. I want to believe he didn’t do it because I like him a lot. I like his music a whole lot. Michael, Prince, Coldplay. Who else is really doing it for me? A lot of different people have influenced me, man. It’s a bit hard to say. Ludacris. I like Ludacris a lot. I think he’s one of the most underrated. Even though he’s really successful, I feel on a credibility level people don’t rate him as much, people believe this is club... 50 Cent is actually a really good rapper, he’s really good as conveying his messages and getting things across. He’s got his formula on lock. Most of the successful people are actually the best at what they do. A lot of people are like, “They’re crap,” but they dumb down their formula. When you hear a lot of these successful rappers in their raw days, they’re really raw. They dumbed it down for commercial appeal.

Benji B

Would you do that?

Sway

Clarity-wise not dumb down, but sometimes I use language that is universal to others. There are some things that I don’t say in my everyday speech that I might say in a lyric, because I want people to understand it. If you want to sell records and you want to make money through doing music, you have to meet the consumer halfway. You have to, it’s just a fact. You have got to meet the consumer half way.

Benji B

At what point does that become you compromising the art side? Not just the language you’re using to communicate. You were just talking about the creative stuff and you’re saying that when you’re in the label you don’t want to take the deal, because you want it on your terms, and you want to be able to do it without compromise. If you have to meet your consumer halfway and the consumer is not really what you’re about, then where do you draw that line?

Sway

Are you asking me if the consumer’s not what I’m about?

Benji B

No, I mean, if you have to meet the consumer halfway and the consumer is not necessarily in the purest way, where do you draw that line of compromise artistically?

Sway

Wherever you feel comfortable. If you’re doing something that you’re not comfortable with, that’s the line drawn already, that’s when you cross the line. Girls can be also known as “gash” in London. I could say, “The other day I phoned my gash.” But it wouldn’t work well in Germany or Switzerland. People would be like, “What is a gash?” People are going to be, “What the hell is he talking about? He phoned his gash. What is that?” My compromise for that would be, “The other day I phoned my girl.” It’s that simple. It’s not like, “Alright, I’m going to do something no one’s going to understand.” That’s my idea of compromising. It’s nothing deep, it’s nothing that I’m ashamed of, or nothing that I hide. It just makes the job easier. I want to be successful, I do want to sell records, of course. Everybody wants to move their parents and all of that. I want to do a lot of stuff.

Audience member

You’re talking about women from the UK. I was thinking about growing up it was a kind of a headtrip to find out like Monie Love who’s there of the Native Tongues, especially on the “Ladies First” track with Queen Latifah, and then she started breaking down the whole and rap more in that kind of slang real quick. I was just wondering how you guys perceived her being that when she came over, especially with her hits “Monie in the Middle” and all that, she completely was rapping straight like American. How did you all perceive that? And then my follow-up question is going from Monie to a more current person, I’ve been hearing a lot about the Lady Sovereign chick with the grime scene and stuff, and I just wanted to hear your thoughts on her as well.

Sway

First of all, Monie Love. I grew up on Monie Love, didn’t I? I love Monie Love. She’s given a lot of stuff, but she wasn’t different to the American movement that was going on at the time. We didn’t see her as a UK artist representing for us in America. We just saw her as part of the American movement. The same way we saw Slick Rick. He wasn’t a representative because she had the American twang speaking. Yeah, she was born in the UK, but it didn’t matter to us. We’ve got a lot of love for her, but she doesn’t stand out from Queen Latifah to us. The same way Queen Latifah represents music to me is the same way Monie Love represents music. I don’t see them as anything different. The whole Lady Sovereign thing is… Lady Sovereign is cool, she’s alright. In the scene that I come from, in the beginning a lot of people weren’t taking her seriously. She just does her thing like another person doing her thing on Channel U, MTV Base. But I’ve been hearing a lot of stuff recently, not musically, but hype-wise. Jay-Z signed her to Def Jam in America and all of that hype. It goes through and people are listening, but I don’t know how well she’ll do musically. Me personally think that she’s talented, but I haven’t heard enough of her to make a proper judgement of whether I like her or not. You have to remember, when something is as raw as grime, the representatives you get from that scene might not be the real true representation of that scene. The people from that scene, they grimey, is what it is. They don’t even have money to come out of their houses half of the time. Let alone go to America and start doing shows. Some of the big, big names are people you wouldn’t have heard of. Yeah, Lady Sovereign came out of the grime scene and everything, but she’s not one of the major players within that scene. Not at all.